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Re: [biblicalapologetics] To Paul

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  • Paul Leonard
    Hi Patrick, Thanks for that tip. I will check that out. Hope you don t mind questions as I get a chance to read, absorb and then get nosy about the same.
    Message 1 of 30 , Jan 22, 2007
      Hi Patrick,

      Thanks for that tip. I will check that out. Hope you don't mind questions as I get a chance to read, absorb and then get nosy about the same.

      Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@...> wrote:
      Paul,
       
      By the way, the first and sixth chapters of my book are available on my website. The 6th chapter (The 'I am' statements of the Gospel of John) can be found on the Resources page. Just in case you wanted to begin examination before the hard copy arrives.
       
      Thanks again,
       
      Patrick Navas

    • Patrick Navas
      I welcome your questions and comments Paul.
      Message 2 of 30 , Jan 22, 2007
        I welcome your questions and comments Paul.
      • Paul Leonard
        Hi Patrick, I just returned from a business trip out of State. Your book was waiting for me when I arrived home. I have just briefly looked at it, as I am beat
        Message 3 of 30 , Jan 31, 2007
          Hi Patrick,

          I just returned from a business trip out of State. Your book was waiting for me when I arrived home. I have just briefly looked at it, as I am beat from all the flying I have been doing.

          I did notice we are both residents of California. Maybe we will be able to meet some day.I have not read any of it yet but will do so shortly.

          Paul

          Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@...> wrote:
          I welcome your questions and comments Paul.

        • Patrick Navas
          Hey Paul, Great to hear from you. I am in Valencia CA (30 minutes north of L.A). Tell me, if you don t mind, what is your religious background? Patrick
          Message 4 of 30 , Jan 31, 2007
            Hey Paul,
             
            Great to hear from you. I am in Valencia CA (30 minutes north of L.A). Tell me, if you don't mind, what is your religious background?
             
            Patrick
          • Paul Leonard
            Hi Patrick, I am in Murrieta,CA. As to my back ground, my mother became a Jehovah s Witness when I was 4. I was raised as one, though for a period of time in
            Message 5 of 30 , Jan 31, 2007
              Hi Patrick,

              I am in Murrieta,CA.

              As to my back ground, my mother became a Jehovah's Witness when I was 4. I was raised as one, though for a period of time in my teens I drifted a bit. I was also, after returning to the "fold", in a discussion on the Trinity and saw what seemed to be support for it. I decided to investigate outside any JW literature. My conclusion was it is a false doctrine.

              I progressed as a Witness, became an elder and served for many years as one. A few years ago I stepped aside as an elder due to health issues. I am still a Witness, as I can find nothing better.

              You mention Solomon Landers in your book, he is a friend and we have done some work on the Coptic, though he is far more advanced than I am.

              Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@...> wrote:
              Hey Paul,
               
              Great to hear from you. I am in Valencia CA (30 minutes north of L.A). Tell me, if you don't mind, what is your religious background?
               
              Patrick

            • Patrick Navas
              Thanks for the background info Paul. I thought you were a trinitarian at first since you said you would have many questions! Solomon has been a tremendous help
              Message 6 of 30 , Jan 31, 2007
                Thanks for the background info Paul.
                 
                I thought you were a trinitarian at first since you said you would have many questions!
                 
                Solomon has been a tremendous help in the production of this book. Once you're done reading it, and if you think it is worthwhile, let others know about it if you think they would be interested. My main goal was to get it into the hands of evangelicals. I was hoping to do this through this forum, but it doesn't seem like there is many participants from different backgrounds.
                 
                What do you mean by saying that you cannot find something better than JW's? Are there aspects of their teachings and practices you find disagreeable or out of harmony with the Scritpures?
                 
                Patrick
              • Paul Leonard
                Hi Patrick, I found out about your book on a forum set up by JW s. I am not sure the best way for you to get the word out, but I will post a link on a couple
                Message 7 of 30 , Jan 31, 2007
                  Hi Patrick,

                  I found out about your book on a forum set up by JW's. I am not sure the best way for you to get the word out, but I will post a link on a couple of forums for you, that I post to that have mainly non JW's on them. What specific link would you like me to use?

                  Now as to my comment. I am always willing to examine any church / belief, etc. To date I have not found any group/ecclesia that meets the depiction of the "ecclesia" spoken of as being the one I should be associating with (Heb 10:24-25) better than JW's. I am also always willing to be challenged on what I believe and am taught.

                  While there are some "teachings" that I disagree with, they are minor issues and do not affect my faith. It might be considered similar to ones not being willing to eat meat sold in the meat market because it was first offered to idols. It is a personal choice according to Paul. If in the beginning it was taught it was a no- no, that was later cleared up by Paul. I simply wait on these things to either be cleared up /changed or enough evidence piles up that I am wrong. So far I keep discovering I am usually wrong. Humbling, but better than trusting in my own opinions.I still have a LOT to learn.

                  I believe there is ONE ecclesia and ONE set of teachers that we must be taught by and associate with. Any other course leads to the divisions you see in the churches today. I do not expect and Scripture does not require, perfection of such a group. After all consider John's words:

                  (John 21:23) 23 In consequence, this saying went out among the brothers, that that disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but: “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?”

                  They were wrong.

                  I look to who is closest to fitting the descriptions given. Matt 24:14, Matt 28:19,20 show an activity. Jesus' words show an attitude:

                  (Matthew 25:40) 40 And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.’

                  This takes care of war.

                  Also Paul's words an Jesus' words.

                  (John 17:16-17) 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.

                  (Philippians 3:20) 20 As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens, from which place also we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

                  There goes nationalism.

                  Paul's words;

                  (1 Corinthians 1:10) 10 Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.

                  (Ephesians 4:3-5) 3 earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace. 4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

                  (1 Corinthians 7:17) 17 Only, as Jehovah has given each one a portion, let each one so walk as God has called him. And thus I ordain in all the congregations.

                  (1 Corinthians 14:33) 33 For God is [a God], not of disorder, but of peace. As in all the congregations of the holy ones,

                  ONE group in all congregations with the same teaching from the same teachers.

                  I find that only In Jehovah's Witnesses.

                  Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@...> wrote:
                  Thanks for the background info Paul.
                   
                  I thought you were a trinitarian at first since you said you would have many questions!
                   
                  Solomon has been a tremendous help in the production of this book. Once you're done reading it, and if you think it is worthwhile, let others know about it if you think they would be interested. My main goal was to get it into the hands of evangelicals. I was hoping to do this through this forum, but it doesn't seem like there is many participants from different backgrounds.
                   
                  What do you mean by saying that you cannot find something better than JW's? Are there aspects of their teachings and practices you find disagreeable or out of harmony with the Scritpures?
                   
                  Patrick

                • Patrick Navas
                  Thank you for your insights on JW s. Here is the link to my site and book http://divinetruth.homestead.com/index.html The first and sixth chapters can be read
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jan 31, 2007
                     
                     
                    Thank you for your insights on JW's.
                     
                    Here is the link to my site and book
                     
                     
                    The first and sixth chapters can be read on the site. The 6th chapter is "The 'I am' statements of the Gospel of John."
                     
                    I have to get to bed soon. Stay in touch. And thank you for offering to let others know about the book.
                     
                    Best wishes,
                     
                    Patrick Navas
                  • Paul Leonard
                    Hi Patrick, What church if any do you belong to? Patrick Navas wrote: Thank you for your insights on JW s. Here is the link to my
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 1, 2007
                      Hi Patrick,

                      What church if any do you belong to?

                      Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@...> wrote:
                       
                       
                      Thank you for your insights on JW's.
                       
                      Here is the link to my site and book
                       
                       
                      The first and sixth chapters can be read on the site. The 6th chapter is "The 'I am' statements of the Gospel of John."
                       
                      I have to get to bed soon. Stay in touch. And thank you for offering to let others know about the book.
                       
                      Best wishes,
                       
                      Patrick Navas

                    • Patrick Navas
                      Hi Paul, I ve never belonged to an organized religion. I studied with JW s off and on for a number of years. I personally love the home-based Bible study
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 2, 2007
                        Hi Paul,
                         
                        I've never belonged to an organized religion. I studied with JW's off and on for a number of years. I personally love the home-based Bible study fellowship approach. I am always on the look out for Christians friends and Christian fellowship. But this is a challenge outside of the mainstream churches. That is where most people who are interested in the Scriptures are.
                         
                        Patrick
                      • Paul Leonard
                        Hi Patrick, Thanks for the info on where you are at spiritually. By the way I have a question on your book. On the coverage of Good teacher, did you consider
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 2, 2007
                          Hi Patrick,
                           
                          Thanks for the info on where you are at spiritually.
                           
                          By the way I have a question on your book. On the coverage of "Good teacher, did you consider that the man went on to speak to Jesus and did not call Jesus "good" again. Jesus did not reprove or correct him but did keep speaking with him.
                           
                          (Mark 10:20-22) 20 The man said to him: "Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth on." 21 Jesus looked upon him and felt love for him and said to him: "One thing is missing about you: Go, sell what things you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven, and come be my follower."
                           
                          Jesus did not correct him aboutg calling him "good", as he got the point and quit calling Jesus 'good'.

                          Is your book available on CD? That would make brief quotes from it a whole lot easier on those of us why type with two fingers.
                           
                          By the way what is it about JW'sor  our beliefes, practices, etc thatkeeps you from being one, if you don't mind my asking???????
                          Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@...> wrote:
                          Hi Paul,
                           
                          I've never belonged to an organized religion. I studied with JW's off and on for a number of years. I personally love the home-based Bible study fellowship approach. I am always on the look out for Christians friends and Christian fellowship. But this is a challenge outside of the mainstream churches. That is where most people who are interested in the Scriptures are.
                           
                          Patrick

                        • Patrick Navas
                          Paul, The book is not available on CD. But I could send you the book in electronic format.
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 4, 2007
                            Paul,
                             
                            The book is not available on CD. But I could send you the book in electronic format.
                          • Paul Leonard
                            Hi Patrick, I would appreciate that. I am reading the book now as I have time. I first flipped through it to get a feel for it. That is when I saw the one
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 4, 2007
                              Hi Patrick,

                              I would appreciate that.

                              I am reading the book now as I have time. I first flipped through it to get a feel for it. That is when I saw the one point I asked about.

                              Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@...> wrote:
                              Paul,
                               
                              The book is not available on CD. But I could send you the book in electronic format.

                            • Patrick Navas
                              Paul, Why don t you email me with your personal email. Then I can send you the book as an attachment. Patrick
                              Message 14 of 30 , Feb 4, 2007
                                Paul,
                                 
                                Why don't you email me with your personal email. Then I can send you the book as an attachment.
                                 
                                Patrick
                              • Paul Leonard
                                anotherpaul@webintellects.net Patrick Navas wrote: Paul, Why don t you email me with your personal email. Then I can send you the
                                Message 15 of 30 , Feb 4, 2007
                                  anotherpaul@...

                                  Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@...> wrote:
                                  Paul,
                                   
                                  Why don't you email me with your personal email. Then I can send you the book as an attachment.
                                   
                                  Patrick

                                • Paul Leonard
                                  Hi Patrick, Thank you. I received the book and that is greatly appreciated. I will not transmit the copy to anyone else. I hope to get some reading in shortly
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Feb 5, 2007
                                    Hi Patrick,

                                    Thank you.

                                    I received the book and that is greatly appreciated. I will not transmit the copy to anyone else. I hope to get some reading in shortly and then let you know about any questions or observations.

                                    Paul

                                    Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@...> wrote:
                                    Hi Paul,
                                     
                                    I've never belonged to an organized religion. I studied with JW's off and on for a number of years. I personally love the home-based Bible study fellowship approach. I am always on the look out for Christians friends and Christian fellowship. But this is a challenge outside of the mainstream churches. That is where most people who are interested in the Scriptures are.
                                     
                                    Patrick

                                  • Brian Cole
                                    please send it to: bjcwrite@gmail.com. Thanks. ... -- Brian Cole
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Feb 6, 2007
                                      please send it to: bjcwrite@.... Thanks.

                                      On 2/4/07, Patrick Navas < patrick_navas@...> wrote:

                                      Paul,
                                       
                                      Why don't you email me with your personal email. Then I can send you the book as an attachment.
                                       
                                      Patrick




                                      --
                                      Brian Cole
                                    • Paul Leonard
                                      Hi Brian, This still had my name on it. Patrick has his book available online for purchase. I purchased a copy prior to communicating with him. I do not
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Feb 6, 2007
                                        Hi Brian,
                                         
                                        This still had my name on it. Patrick has his book available online for purchase. I purchased a copy prior to communicating with him. I do not believe he is in to giving his book away, but that will be up to him.
                                         
                                        Paul

                                        Brian Cole <bjcwrite@...> wrote:
                                        please send it to: bjcwrite@gmail. com. Thanks.

                                        On 2/4/07, Patrick Navas < patrick_navas@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                        Paul,
                                         
                                        Why don't you email me with your personal email. Then I can send you the book as an attachment.
                                         
                                        Patrick



                                        --
                                        Brian Cole

                                      • Jimmy Sloan
                                        Hello all. I would like to invite everyone (if it is ok with the list admin) to visit my discussion forums located at www.christiandiscussionboards.org
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Feb 6, 2007

                                           

                                          Hello all.  I would like to invite everyone (if it is ok with the list admin) to visit my discussion forums located at www.christiandiscussionboards.org  They are slow at the moment, but I am trying to generate interest because I enjoy discussion forums.  My website is www.reformedapologetics.org  so please stop by :)  Thanks, and I enjoy reading the posts from this list though I don’t post all that often. 


                                           

                                        • Patrick Navas
                                          Hello Jimmy, Check out my new book on the Trinity http://divinetruth.homestead.com/index.html Patrick Navas
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Feb 6, 2007
                                            Hello Jimmy,
                                             
                                            Check out my new book on the Trinity
                                             
                                             
                                            Patrick Navas
                                          • Jimmy Sloan
                                            Thanks, I will have a look. _____ From: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Navas Sent:
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Feb 6, 2007

                                              Thanks, I will have a look.

                                               


                                              From: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Patrick Navas
                                              Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 9:10 PM
                                              To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [biblicalapologetics] To Jimmy

                                               

                                               

                                            • Paul Leonard
                                              Hi Patrick, Still struggling for time to read more than a few pages at a time, but I like your approach to Matt 28:19-20 and the name issue. Patrick Navas
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Feb 14, 2007
                                                Hi Patrick,

                                                Still struggling for time to read more than a few pages at a time, but I like your approach to Matt 28:19-20 and the "name" issue.

                                                Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@...> wrote
                                                 
                                                Here is the link to my site and book
                                                 
                                                 
                                                The first and sixth chapters can be read on the site. The 6th chapter is "The 'I am' statements of the Gospel of John."
                                                 
                                                I have to get to bed soon. Stay in touch. And thank you for offering to let others know about the book.
                                                 
                                                Best wishes,
                                                 
                                                Patrick Navas

                                              • Patrick Navas
                                                Great, Paul. I look forward to more comments and constructive criticisms. Would you mind writing a review on Amazon.com? --if you have time and are so willing?
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Feb 15, 2007
                                                  Great, Paul.
                                                   
                                                  I look forward to more comments and constructive criticisms. Would you mind writing a review on Amazon.com? --if you have time and are so willing?
                                                   
                                                  Patrick
                                                • Paul Leonard
                                                  Hi Patrick, I will let you know as I progress. Maybe after the first chapter or so I wil feel I have enough grasp of the work to write a review on Amazon.
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Feb 15, 2007
                                                    Hi Patrick,
                                                     
                                                    I will let you know as I progress. Maybe after the first chapter or so I wil feel I have enough grasp of the work to write a review on Amazon.

                                                    Patrick Navas <patrick_navas@...> wrote:
                                                    Great, Paul.
                                                     
                                                    I look forward to more comments and constructive criticisms. Would you mind writing a review on Amazon.com? --if you have time and are so willing?
                                                     
                                                    Patrick

                                                  • Patrick Navas
                                                    Great, Paul, I appreciate that. I don t think I ever answered your question about why I never joined JWs. The main reason was: I never became convinced that
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Feb 15, 2007
                                                      Great, Paul,
                                                       
                                                      I appreciate that.
                                                       
                                                      I don't think I ever answered your question about why I never joined JWs. The main reason was: I never became convinced that Jesus returned invisibly in the year 1914. There were just too many doubtful points and controversies surrounding the doctrine. Also, the Society has a long history of pointing to certain dates that all proved false. This made it difficult, for me, to think that the Society was still or ever was credible in the area of "date setting." This does not mean that I think JWs are not Christians. It just means I don't think that one has to be a member of the organization or believe in the doctrine of 1914 in order to have God's approval. At least, that is where my studies have led me.
                                                       
                                                      Best wishes,
                                                       
                                                      Patrick Navas
                                                    • Paul Leonard
                                                      Hi, Solomon has posted this review. Thought you might like to know of it, if you weren t aware of it.He is obviously a faster reader than I. I ve finished
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Feb 16, 2007
                                                        Hi,

                                                        Solomon has posted this review. Thought you might like to know of it, if you weren't aware of it.He is obviously a faster reader than I.

                                                        I've finished reading the book, and I have a "mini-mini review" at Dave's Scriptural Discussion site, as follows:
                                                        --------------------------

                                                        A Mini-mini Review of Divine Truth or Human Tradition?, by Patrick Navas
                                                        I found this to be a fantastically useful book for any in-depth study of the fallacies of Trinitarian doctrine. The author has utilized an amazing plethora of scholarly, well-regarded resources to refute this theology, many of them are even Trinitarian, demonstrating that noted Trinitarian scholars themselves recognize some of the weaknesses of this doctrine (even while attempting to justify it in other ways).
                                                        When examining Scriptural texts, Patrick Navas utilizes grammar, context, and common sense to arrive at the truth of matters, using above all, the touchstone of the whole body of Scripture and what they plainly outline as real divine truth. His reasoning is solid and sure, and his writing style is easy to follow, not overly "academic" nor bombastic. He honestly quotes his sources, and often presents both or several sides of an argument.
                                                        What I appreciate above all is his no-nonsense appeal to the Scriptures rather than to human tradition, and his very skillful manner of cutting through the "hermeneutical gymnastics" of Trinitarian apologists, who base their doctrine on questionable exegesis or outright eisegesis (reading their own doctrines into the text). He very effectively tears down the pompous edifice of erroneous dogma that Trinitarian apologists have erected to support the doctrine of the Trinity.
                                                        All-in-all, this book is a beneficial addition to the researcher's library.
                                                        Note: Just to reiterate, as with the case of Jason BeDuhn and his book, Truth in Translation, Patrick Navas is not a Witness, and in the book's appendix are some personal thoughts of his that are not shared by Witnesses. BeDuhn disagreed that "Jehovah" should be in the New Testament; Navas feels that Christians need no other identifying name besides "Christian." Interestingly, he quotes a similar expression from Brother Russell from 1882. But such personal thoughts are relegated to the appendix, and do not take away from the fine work of either book in refuting the Trinity.
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