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  • Bob, Just call me Bob
    Greetings, I was told something the other day in a bible-study and it just absolutely amazed me. I wanted to see how other people feel about it and get some
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 22, 2006
      Greetings,

      I was told something the other day in a bible-study
      and it just absolutely amazed me. I wanted to see how
      other people feel about it and get some perspectives.
      The setting was a study on the nature of prayer, the
      context of the issue began as a question of whether we
      should direct prayer to Jesus or to God. Given my
      obvious prejudices on the subject, I submitted
      unequivicoly that prayer should be addressed to God.
      The response amazed me. Many (perhaps even most...
      and these are some pretty devout Christians) in the
      group actually agreed with me, one of whom pointed out
      that Jesus gave example of and even instruction in
      prayer and that he both showed and instructed that
      prayer was to the father.

      The leader of the group then made the point (which is
      the focus of my interest) that when Christ instructed
      people on prayer, he had not yet accomplished the
      purpose for which he came and therefore he could not
      give the whole story. In other words, his instruction
      was incomplete because he could not yet explain fully
      that he was, indeed, God himself. I left it alone,
      but it has bothered me ever since. Thusly, I just
      wanted to throw the point out to some other Christians
      to see where they stand on it.

      My problem, of course, is that Christianity has
      managed to essentially negate almost the entirety of
      the "Old Testament" by saying that God played "I've
      got a secret" all through it. Given that, now I learn
      that Jesus played "I've got a secret" throughout the
      vast majority of the Gospels (after all, very little
      of his ministry comes after the crucifiction and
      resurrection). Does that mean that Christians now
      only have the books attributed to Paul, Timothy, Peter
      and John to really trust for accurate information
      regarding God?

      I am not trying to be controversial here, I really
      would like to know people's thoughts.
    • Paul Leonard
      Humm, Maybe example is the answer. Romans 1:8 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 22, 2006
        Humm,

        Maybe example is the answer.

        Romans 1:8   8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

        Philippians 1:2-4   2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.  3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, {remembrance: or, mention}  4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,

        Colossians 1:3   3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

        1 Thessalonians 1:1-2  ... from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.  2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

        This seems to be the patternn set. Pray and thanks are given to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus. No change after the resurrection of Jesus.

        "Bob, Just call me Bob" <caliburndulac@...> wrote:
        Greetings,

        I was told something the other day in a bible-study
        and it just absolutely amazed me. I wanted to see how
        other people feel about it and get some perspectives.
        The setting was a study on the nature of prayer, the
        context of the issue began as a question of whether we
        should direct prayer to Jesus or to God. Given my
        obvious prejudices on the subject, I submitted
        unequivicoly that prayer should be addressed to God.
        The response amazed me. Many (perhaps even most...
        and these are some pretty devout Christians) in the
        group actually agreed with me, one of whom pointed out
        that Jesus gave example of and even instruction in
        prayer and that he both showed and instructed that
        prayer was to the father.

        The leader of the group then made the point (which is
        the focus of my interest) that when Christ instructed
        people on prayer, he had not yet accomplished the
        purpose for which he came and therefore he could not
        give the whole story. In other words, his instruction
        was incomplete because he could not yet explain fully
        that he was, indeed, God himself. I left it alone,
        but it has bothered me ever since. Thusly, I just
        wanted to throw the point out to some other Christians
        to see where they stand on it.

        My problem, of course, is that Christianity has
        managed to essentially negate almost the entirety of
        the "Old Testament" by saying that God played "I've
        got a secret" all through it. Given that, now I learn
        that Jesus played "I've got a secret" throughout the
        vast majority of the Gospels (after all, very little
        of his ministry comes after the crucifiction and
        resurrection) . Does that mean that Christians now
        only have the books attributed to Paul, Timothy, Peter
        and John to really trust for accurate information
        regarding God?

        I am not trying to be controversial here, I really
        would like to know people's thoughts.


      • chaplain
        I believe Jesus meant what He said, to pray to the Father in Jesus Name. That is pretty plain no matter what people say. We all know Jesus was God, therefore
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 23, 2006
          I believe Jesus meant what He said, to pray to the Father in Jesus' Name. That is pretty plain no matter what people say. We all know Jesus was God, therefore he doesn't have to state it every time he brings up a subject. Chaplain Dan
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 12:41 PM
          Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Question

          Greetings,

          I was told something the other day in a bible-study
          and it just absolutely amazed me. I wanted to see how
          other people feel about it and get some perspectives.
          The setting was a study on the nature of prayer, the
          context of the issue began as a question of whether we
          should direct prayer to Jesus or to God. Given my
          obvious prejudices on the subject, I submitted
          unequivicoly that prayer should be addressed to God.
          The response amazed me. Many (perhaps even most...
          and these are some pretty devout Christians) in the
          group actually agreed with me, one of whom pointed out
          that Jesus gave example of and even instruction in
          prayer and that he both showed and instructed that
          prayer was to the father.

          The leader of the group then made the point (which is
          the focus of my interest) that when Christ instructed
          people on prayer, he had not yet accomplished the
          purpose for which he came and therefore he could not
          give the whole story. In other words, his instruction
          was incomplete because he could not yet explain fully
          that he was, indeed, God himself. I left it alone,
          but it has bothered me ever since. Thusly, I just
          wanted to throw the point out to some other Christians
          to see where they stand on it.

          My problem, of course, is that Christianity has
          managed to essentially negate almost the entirety of
          the "Old Testament" by saying that God played "I've
          got a secret" all through it. Given that, now I learn
          that Jesus played "I've got a secret" throughout the
          vast majority of the Gospels (after all, very little
          of his ministry comes after the crucifiction and
          resurrection) . Does that mean that Christians now
          only have the books attributed to Paul, Timothy, Peter
          and John to really trust for accurate information
          regarding God?

          I am not trying to be controversial here, I really
          would like to know people's thoughts.

        • Robert Nusom
          Paul, Thank you for your answer. You have well addressed the overall issue very succinctly and well. In fact, I think our study group came to the same
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 25, 2006
            Paul,

            Thank you for your answer. You have well addressed
            the overall issue very succinctly and well. In fact,
            I think our study group came to the same conclusion
            (at least I believe the majority did). However, my
            question, or what has been bothering me, is whether or
            not The things Jesus said in his ministry (and I need
            to be honest enough to acknowledge that I am not a
            Christian, though I do believe in the God of the "Old
            Testament") can be counted on as being relevent to
            Christians, or did the resurrection make his message
            moot?

            To be more precise, is there a difference in
            reliability of what Christ said before he died and
            rose versus what he said afterword? The statement
            given to me was that Jesus' intruction on prayer (that
            it should be offered to the father alone) was changed
            with the resurrection, that he could not reveal
            everything until after the resurrection. Thusly, his
            instruction on prayer was not all inclusive.
            Honestly, I know Christianity to be a well thought out
            religion that is generally coherent in its thoughts.
            Had I heard the point made by someone of lay status, I
            would have passed it off as ignorance. The person who
            said it, though, was someone I consider to have a
            certain understanding of Christianity and certainly an
            emulable Christian walk. Hence, I wanted to get
            perspectives on it from other knowledgeable
            Christians. Perhaps it is part of a perspective or
            concept I have not previously considered.

            --- Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:

            > Humm,
            >
            > Maybe example is the answer.
            >
            > Romans 1:8 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus
            > Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of
            > throughout the whole world.
            >
            > Philippians 1:2-4 2 Grace be unto you, and
            > peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus
            > Christ. 3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of
            > you, {remembrance: or, mention} 4 Always in every
            > prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
            >
            > Colossians 1:3 3 We give thanks to God and the
            > Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for
            > you,
            >
            > 1 Thessalonians 1:1-2 ... from God our Father,
            > and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 We give thanks to God
            > always for you all, making mention of you in our
            > prayers;
            >
            > This seems to be the patternn set. Pray and thanks
            > are given to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus. No
            > change after the resurrection of Jesus.
            >
            > "Bob, Just call me Bob" <caliburndulac@...>
            > wrote:
            > Greetings,
            >
            > I was told something the other day in a
            > bible-study
            > and it just absolutely amazed me. I wanted to see
            > how
            > other people feel about it and get some
            > perspectives.
            > The setting was a study on the nature of prayer,
            > the
            > context of the issue began as a question of
            > whether we
            > should direct prayer to Jesus or to God. Given my
            > obvious prejudices on the subject, I submitted
            > unequivicoly that prayer should be addressed to
            > God.
            > The response amazed me. Many (perhaps even most...
            > and these are some pretty devout Christians) in
            > the
            > group actually agreed with me, one of whom pointed
            > out
            > that Jesus gave example of and even instruction in
            > prayer and that he both showed and instructed that
            > prayer was to the father.
            >
            > The leader of the group then made the point (which
            > is
            > the focus of my interest) that when Christ
            > instructed
            > people on prayer, he had not yet accomplished the
            > purpose for which he came and therefore he could
            > not
            > give the whole story. In other words, his
            > instruction
            > was incomplete because he could not yet explain
            > fully
            > that he was, indeed, God himself. I left it alone,
            > but it has bothered me ever since. Thusly, I just
            > wanted to throw the point out to some other
            > Christians
            > to see where they stand on it.
            >
            > My problem, of course, is that Christianity has
            > managed to essentially negate almost the entirety
            > of
            > the "Old Testament" by saying that God played
            > "I've
            > got a secret" all through it. Given that, now I
            > learn
            > that Jesus played "I've got a secret" throughout
            > the
            > vast majority of the Gospels (after all, very
            > little
            > of his ministry comes after the crucifiction and
            > resurrection). Does that mean that Christians now
            > only have the books attributed to Paul, Timothy,
            > Peter
            > and John to really trust for accurate information
            > regarding God?
            >
            > I am not trying to be controversial here, I really
            > would like to know people's thoughts.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            __________________________________________________
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          • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
            Bob, What Jesus said before his resurrection is just as reliable and true as what he and his apostles said afterward. Your leader was at least partially
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 25, 2006
              Bob,

              What Jesus said before his resurrection is just as reliable and true
              as what he and his apostles said afterward.

              Your leader was at least partially correct (I wasn't there, so I'm
              responding to what I think you were stating was his position). Jesus
              stated explicitly before he died that there were things his apostles
              were not yet ready to hear (John 16:12). This doesn't mean that
              anything he said before his resurrection was wrong, just that it
              wasn't everything we should know.

              That we may pray to Jesus is not one of those things left unmentioned
              before Jesus' resurrection. Jesus invited his followers to pray to
              him in John 14:14: "If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it."

              After Jesus' resurrection and ascension into Heaven, of course, is
              when we would expect to read about people actually praying to Jesus
              (since prayer means speaking to a heavenly being). And we do. The
              disciples prayed to the Lord and asked him to indicate which of two
              men should replace Judas (Acts 1:24, see v. 21). Stephen called on
              the Lord Jesus in prayer as he was being killed (Acts 7:59-60). Saul
              of Tarsus afterwards started trying to imprison anyone calling on the
              name of Jesus (Acts 9:14); evidently Stephen's dying prayer to Jesus
              wasn't an exceptional occurrence. Saul was converted when Christ
              appeared to him, and as a Christian used his Roman name Paul. He said
              that everyone who calls on the Lord Jesus will be saved (Rom. 10:12-
              13), and in effect defines the saints as those who call on the Lord
              Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 1:2). Paul asked the Lord (Christ) three times
              to take away his thorn in the flesh (2 Cor. 12:8-9). Christians
              pray "Maranatha" which means "Come, (our) Lord" (1 Cor. 16:22), and
              that is how the New Testament ends: "Come, Lord Jesus" (Rev. 22:20).

              This is a quick overview of the main New Testament evidence. If you
              would like to discuss any of these passages, I'm open to that.

              In Christ's service,
              Rob Bowman
            • Paul Leonard
              Hi Robert, I am on vacation, so i have minimal time. Dd things reall chnage after his resurection, in regard to prayer? If so what verse do we have to support
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 25, 2006
                Hi Robert,

                I am on vacation, so i have minimal time.

                Dd things reall chnage after his resurection, in regard to prayer? If so what verse do we have to support a change? Clear direction, not inference?

                Yes some spoke to him after his rssurrection. Such as Sepehen and Paul. But both these instances were special. I can guarantee you, that if Jesus appears to me I will speak to him, assuming my tongue and brain can work a that point. BUT that is not prayer.

                Robert Nusom <caliburndulac@...> wrote:
                Paul,

                Thank you for your answer. You have well addressed
                the overall issue very succinctly and well. In fact,
                I think our study group came to the same conclusion
                (at least I believe the majority did). However, my
                question, or what has been bothering me, is whether or
                not The things Jesus said in his ministry (and I need
                to be honest enough to acknowledge that I am not a
                Christian, though I do believe in the God of the "Old
                Testament") can be counted on as being relevent to
                Christians, or did the resurrection make his message
                moot?

                To be more precise, is there a difference in
                reliability of what Christ said before he died and
                rose versus what he said afterword? The statement
                given to me was that Jesus' intruction on prayer (that
                it should be offered to the father alone) was changed
                with the resurrection, that he could not reveal
                everything until after the resurrection. Thusly, his
                instruction on prayer was not all inclusive.
                Honestly, I know Christianity to be a well thought out
                religion that is generally coherent in its thoughts.
                Had I heard the point made by someone of lay status, I
                would have passed it off as ignorance. The person who
                said it, though, was someone I consider to have a
                certain understanding of Christianity and certainly an
                emulable Christian walk. Hence, I wanted to get
                perspectives on it from other knowledgeable
                Christians. Perhaps it is part of a perspective or
                concept I have not previously considered.

                --- Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                > Humm,
                >
                > Maybe example is the answer.
                >
                > Romans 1:8 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus
                > Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of
                > throughout the whole world.
                >
                > Philippians 1:2-4 2 Grace be unto you, and
                > peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus
                > Christ. 3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of
                > you, {remembrance: or, mention} 4 Always in every
                > prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
                >
                > Colossians 1:3 3 We give thanks to God and the
                > Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for
                > you,
                >
                > 1 Thessalonians 1:1-2 ... from God our Father,
                > and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 We give thanks to God
                > always for you all, making mention of you in our
                > prayers;
                >
                > This seems to be the patternn set. Pray and thanks
                > are given to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus. No
                > change after the resurrection of Jesus.
                >
                > "Bob, Just call me Bob" <caliburndulac@ yahoo.com>
                > wrote:
                > Greetings,
                >
                > I was told something the other day in a
                > bible-study
                > and it just absolutely amazed me. I wanted to see
                > how
                > other people feel about it and get some
                > perspectives.
                > The setting was a study on the nature of prayer,
                > the
                > context of the issue began as a question of
                > whether we
                > should direct prayer to Jesus or to God. Given my
                > obvious prejudices on the subject, I submitted
                > unequivicoly that prayer should be addressed to
                > God.
                > The response amazed me. Many (perhaps even most...
                > and these are some pretty devout Christians) in
                > the
                > group actually agreed with me, one of whom pointed
                > out
                > that Jesus gave example of and even instruction in
                > prayer and that he both showed and instructed that
                > prayer was to the father.
                >
                > The leader of the group then made the point (which
                > is
                > the focus of my interest) that when Christ
                > instructed
                > people on prayer, he had not yet accomplished the
                > purpose for which he came and therefore he could
                > not
                > give the whole story. In other words, his
                > instruction
                > was incomplete because he could not yet explain
                > fully
                > that he was, indeed, God himself. I left it alone,
                > but it has bothered me ever since. Thusly, I just
                > wanted to throw the point out to some other
                > Christians
                > to see where they stand on it.
                >
                > My problem, of course, is that Christianity has
                > managed to essentially negate almost the entirety
                > of
                > the "Old Testament" by saying that God played
                > "I've
                > got a secret" all through it. Given that, now I
                > learn
                > that Jesus played "I've got a secret" throughout
                > the
                > vast majority of the Gospels (after all, very
                > little
                > of his ministry comes after the crucifiction and
                > resurrection) . Does that mean that Christians now
                > only have the books attributed to Paul, Timothy,
                > Peter
                > and John to really trust for accurate information
                > regarding God?
                >
                > I am not trying to be controversial here, I really
                > would like to know people's thoughts.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
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                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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              • Robert Nusom
                Rob, Thank you very much for your answer, which is directly on point. Bear in mind that, although I am not a Christian, I do take a certain academic pride in
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 26, 2006
                  Rob,

                  Thank you very much for your answer, which is directly
                  on point. Bear in mind that, although I am not a
                  Christian, I do take a certain academic pride in
                  understanding the predominant precepts of the religion
                  (how can one absolutely reject a religion they do not
                  understand?). Thusly, my interest is more academic
                  than spiritual. I am not trying to "bait" Christians
                  or to endlessly debate concepts that I know are deeply
                  held to be fundamental truths to them (you). However,
                  I believe it would be absolutely wrong for me to fein
                  commonality through silence.

                  Your answer clears things up very nicely for me, I
                  believe that you have actually elaborated on his point
                  and actually went so far as to place the proper
                  caveats in position that make the statement sensible.
                  Unfortunately, though it does beg another question.
                  First, since Jesus also instructed (The beattitudes)
                  people to pray to the Father (God) and also prayed to
                  the father himself, would it be fair to suggest that
                  Christians have the option of either praying to Christ
                  or to the Father? I recognize that to a Christian the
                  point is essentially moot, since Christians consider
                  the two to be combined into the same entity. However,
                  to us non-Christians, the difference is significant.

                  Given that Christians also make the distinction and
                  intentionally pray to Christ, I suspect that the
                  distinction is important to them as well. If it were
                  not, then there would be no problem with simply
                  offering prayer to the father. Given that most
                  Christians end their prayers with, "In Jesus name we
                  pray", I suspect that there might be a logical reason
                  why simple prayer to God is not considered adequate.
                  Am I right? Or, is it optional whether the prayer be
                  offered to Jesus or God? I know that, as a Christian
                  youth, I used to see it as one prays through Christ to
                  God, but I am beginning to realize that many
                  Christians see it as being a bit more gray than that.

                  Again, I thank you for the clarification, it makes
                  sense within the interwoven fabric of Christian
                  philosophy.

                  Sincerely,

                  Bob





                  --- "Robert M. Bowman, Jr."
                  <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:

                  > Bob,
                  >
                  > What Jesus said before his resurrection is just as
                  > reliable and true
                  > as what he and his apostles said afterward.
                  >
                  > Your leader was at least partially correct (I wasn't
                  > there, so I'm
                  > responding to what I think you were stating was his
                  > position). Jesus
                  > stated explicitly before he died that there were
                  > things his apostles
                  > were not yet ready to hear (John 16:12). This
                  > doesn't mean that
                  > anything he said before his resurrection was wrong,
                  > just that it
                  > wasn't everything we should know.
                  >
                  > That we may pray to Jesus is not one of those things
                  > left unmentioned
                  > before Jesus' resurrection. Jesus invited his
                  > followers to pray to
                  > him in John 14:14: "If you ask me anything in my
                  > name, I will do it."
                  >
                  > After Jesus' resurrection and ascension into Heaven,
                  > of course, is
                  > when we would expect to read about people actually
                  > praying to Jesus
                  > (since prayer means speaking to a heavenly being).
                  > And we do. The
                  > disciples prayed to the Lord and asked him to
                  > indicate which of two
                  > men should replace Judas (Acts 1:24, see v. 21).
                  > Stephen called on
                  > the Lord Jesus in prayer as he was being killed
                  > (Acts 7:59-60). Saul
                  > of Tarsus afterwards started trying to imprison
                  > anyone calling on the
                  > name of Jesus (Acts 9:14); evidently Stephen's dying
                  > prayer to Jesus
                  > wasn't an exceptional occurrence. Saul was converted
                  > when Christ
                  > appeared to him, and as a Christian used his Roman
                  > name Paul. He said
                  > that everyone who calls on the Lord Jesus will be
                  > saved (Rom. 10:12-
                  > 13), and in effect defines the saints as those who
                  > call on the Lord
                  > Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 1:2). Paul asked the Lord
                  > (Christ) three times
                  > to take away his thorn in the flesh (2 Cor. 12:8-9).
                  > Christians
                  > pray "Maranatha" which means "Come, (our) Lord" (1
                  > Cor. 16:22), and
                  > that is how the New Testament ends: "Come, Lord
                  > Jesus" (Rev. 22:20).
                  >
                  > This is a quick overview of the main New Testament
                  > evidence. If you
                  > would like to discuss any of these passages, I'm
                  > open to that.
                  >
                  > In Christ's service,
                  > Rob Bowman
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  http://mail.yahoo.com
                • Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
                  Bob, Thanks for your reply. Yes, it would be accurate to say that Christians may pray to either the Father or the Son. Either way, a Christian s prayers should
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 26, 2006
                    Bob,

                    Thanks for your reply. Yes, it would be accurate to say that Christians
                    may pray to either the Father or the Son. Either way, a Christian's
                    prayers should reflect their awareness of both persons in some way. In
                    praying to the Father, we acknowledge that it is through the Son, Jesus
                    Christ, that we have access to the Father. In praying to the Lord
                    Jesus, we do so in the expectation that his Father would be glorified.

                    In Christ's service,
                    Rob Bowman
                  • Robert Nusom
                    Dan, I am not particularly conversant in with the Christian Scriptures (I have read them, but not studied them as intensely as the hebrew Scriptures), thusly I
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 27, 2006
                      Dan,

                      I am not particularly conversant in with the Christian
                      Scriptures (I have read them, but not studied them as
                      intensely as the hebrew Scriptures), thusly I am not
                      aware of where Jesus said to pray to the father in his
                      name. Would you be so kind as to point out where he
                      said that, or is it an interpolation of multiple
                      quotes?

                      --- chaplain <chaplain@...> wrote:

                      > I believe Jesus meant what He said, to pray to the
                      > Father in Jesus' Name. That is pretty plain no
                      > matter what people say. We all know Jesus was God,
                      > therefore he doesn't have to state it every time he
                      > brings up a subject. Chaplain Dan
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Bob, Just call me Bob
                      > To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 12:41 PM
                      > Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Question
                      >
                      >
                      > Greetings,
                      >
                      > I was told something the other day in a
                      > bible-study
                      > and it just absolutely amazed me. I wanted to see
                      > how
                      > other people feel about it and get some
                      > perspectives.
                      > The setting was a study on the nature of prayer,
                      > the
                      > context of the issue began as a question of
                      > whether we
                      > should direct prayer to Jesus or to God. Given my
                      > obvious prejudices on the subject, I submitted
                      > unequivicoly that prayer should be addressed to
                      > God.
                      > The response amazed me. Many (perhaps even most...
                      > and these are some pretty devout Christians) in
                      > the
                      > group actually agreed with me, one of whom pointed
                      > out
                      > that Jesus gave example of and even instruction in
                      > prayer and that he both showed and instructed that
                      > prayer was to the father.
                      >
                      > The leader of the group then made the point (which
                      > is
                      > the focus of my interest) that when Christ
                      > instructed
                      > people on prayer, he had not yet accomplished the
                      > purpose for which he came and therefore he could
                      > not
                      > give the whole story. In other words, his
                      > instruction
                      > was incomplete because he could not yet explain
                      > fully
                      > that he was, indeed, God himself. I left it alone,
                      > but it has bothered me ever since. Thusly, I just
                      > wanted to throw the point out to some other
                      > Christians
                      > to see where they stand on it.
                      >
                      > My problem, of course, is that Christianity has
                      > managed to essentially negate almost the entirety
                      > of
                      > the "Old Testament" by saying that God played
                      > "I've
                      > got a secret" all through it. Given that, now I
                      > learn
                      > that Jesus played "I've got a secret" throughout
                      > the
                      > vast majority of the Gospels (after all, very
                      > little
                      > of his ministry comes after the crucifiction and
                      > resurrection). Does that mean that Christians now
                      > only have the books attributed to Paul, Timothy,
                      > Peter
                      > and John to really trust for accurate information
                      > regarding God?
                      >
                      > I am not trying to be controversial here, I really
                      > would like to know people's thoughts.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


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                    • Paul Leonard
                      We do?????? chaplain wrote: We all know Jesus was God, therefore he doesn t have to state it every time he brings up a subject.
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 2, 2006
                        We do??????

                        chaplain <chaplain@...> wrote:
                         We all know Jesus was God, therefore he doesn't have to state it every time he brings up a subject. Chaplain Dan
                        .


                      • bailysandy
                        ... Abraham was I am. He hinted wround to it all the time he probably wanted people to get what he was saying and think it through to come to that conclusion.
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 15, 2006
                          --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Bob, Just call me Bob"
                          <caliburndulac@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Greetings,
                          >
                          > I was told something the other day in a bible-study
                          > and it just absolutely amazed me. I wanted to see how
                          > other people feel about it and get some perspectives.
                          > The setting was a study on the nature of prayer, the
                          > context of the issue began as a question of whether we
                          > should direct prayer to Jesus or to God. Given my
                          > obvious prejudices on the subject, I submitted
                          > unequivicoly that prayer should be addressed to God.
                          > The response amazed me. Many (perhaps even most...
                          > and these are some pretty devout Christians) in the
                          > group actually agreed with me, one of whom pointed out
                          > that Jesus gave example of and even instruction in
                          > prayer and that he both showed and instructed that
                          > prayer was to the father.
                          > I feel Jesus let us know many times He was God gor example b4
                          Abraham was I am. He hinted wround to it all the time he probably
                          wanted people to get what he was saying and think it through to come
                          to that conclusion. That is why thry picked up stones to stone him.
                          > The leader of the group then made the point (which is
                          > the focus of my interest) that when Christ instructed
                          > people on prayer, he had not yet accomplished the
                          > purpose for which he came and therefore he could not
                          > give the whole story. In other words, his instruction
                          > was incomplete because he could not yet explain fully
                          > that he was, indeed, God himself. I left it alone,
                          > but it has bothered me ever since. Thusly, I just
                          > wanted to throw the point out to some other Christians
                          > to see where they stand on it.
                          >
                          > My problem, of course, is that Christianity has
                          > managed to essentially negate almost the entirety of
                          > the "Old Testament" by saying that God played "I've
                          > got a secret" all through it. Given that, now I learn
                          > that Jesus played "I've got a secret" throughout the
                          > vast majority of the Gospels (after all, very little
                          > of his ministry comes after the crucifiction and
                          > resurrection). Does that mean that Christians now
                          > only have the books attributed to Paul, Timothy, Peter
                          > and John to really trust for accurate information
                          > regarding God?
                          >
                          > I am not trying to be controversial here, I really
                          > would like to know people's thoughts.
                          >
                        • Paul Leonard
                          A thought or two. bailysandy wrote: --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com,
                          Message 12 of 12 , Nov 15, 2006
                            A thought or two.

                            bailysandy <fitzgeraldbt0329@...> wrote:
                            --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, "Bob, Just call me Bob"
                            <caliburndulac@ ...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Greetings,
                            >
                            > I was told something the other day in a bible-study
                            > and it just absolutely amazed me. I wanted to see how
                            > other people feel about it and get some perspectives.
                            > The setting was a study on the nature of prayer, the
                            > context of the issue began as a question of whether we
                            > should direct prayer to Jesus or to God. Given my
                            > obvious prejudices on the subject, I submitted
                            > unequivicoly that prayer should be addressed to God.
                            > The response amazed me. Many (perhaps even most...
                            > and these are some pretty devout Christians) in the
                            > group actually agreed with me, one of whom pointed out
                            > that Jesus gave example of and even instruction in
                            > prayer and that he both showed and instructed that
                            > prayer was to the father.

                            Correct.
                            > I feel Jesus let us know many times He was God gor example b4
                            Abraham was I am.
                            Nope a misaplication of ego eimi.

                            >He hinted wround to it all the time he probably
                            wanted people to get what he was saying and think it through to come
                            to that conclusion. That is why thry picked up stones to stone him.

                            Nope, they tried to kill him on other occasions for other thewn legitimate reasons.
                            > The leader of the group then made the point (which is
                            > the focus of my interest) that when Christ instructed
                            > people on prayer, he had not yet accomplished the
                            > purpose for which he came and therefore he could not
                            > give the whole story. In other words, his instruction
                            > was incomplete because he could not yet explain fully
                            > that he was, indeed, God himself. I left it alone,
                            > but it has bothered me ever since. Thusly, I just
                            > wanted to throw the point out to some other Christians
                            > to see where they stand on it.
                            An interesting theory but no scriptures to support it. On the basis argued above, we could say that everything that jesus taight was incomplete since he was justa  man on earth. That is not really a good position to take.

                             > My problem, of course, is that Christianity has
                            > managed to essentially negate almost the entirety of
                            > the "Old Testament" by saying that God played "I've
                            > got a secret" all through it. Given that, now I learn
                            > that Jesus played "I've got a secret" throughout the
                            > vast majority of the Gospels (after all, very little
                            > of his ministry comes after the crucifiction and
                            > resurrection) . Does that mean that Christians now
                            > only have the books attributed to Paul, Timothy, Peter
                            > and John to really trust for accurate information
                            > regarding God?
                            Nope, as he gave us accurate information and all that we need to understand it. The other books expand on many of his teachings as well as provide new and needed direction. The OT is not negated, it is a harmonious part. Remember "all scripture' to a 1st century believer was basically the OT.
                            >
                            > I am not trying to be controversial here, I really
                            > would like to know people's thoughts.
                            >
                            A few of mine.

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