Re: [biblicalapologetics] Re: Jeremiah 23v5-6 & John1v1c
- Dear Paul Leonard,Which is completely wrong. First, If there is definite article in both theos (1:1b and 1:1c) your argument could be right. There is definite article in 1:1b but there is no definite article in 1:1c. Second, the word is with (pros) God. When pros proceeded in accusative case it always shows a relationship. So how could it be the Word (logos) is with God the Father and he is also God the Father?I highly recommend you to read the following two books: Murray Harriss Jesus as God and Rob Bowmans Jehovah Witnesses, Jesus Christ, and the Gospel of JohnI hope the discussion should be plausible arguments than a confession of faith.Tesfaye Robele
Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:Hi Ken,
Noi I am not promoting Oneness. I am simply pointing out that most Trinitarian positions on scripture actually promote Oneness. John 1;1c is a perfect example. If "Definite" (in 1:1c) it makes the "God" in 1:1b the same "God" in 1:1c. That is Oneness, since Trinitarians say that the 1:1b "God" is the Father.
Tranlsating it "the Word was God" is a Definite translation of theos in 1:1c.
Ken Hutson <postoak777@aol. com> wrote:--- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, Paul Leonard
<anotherpaul2001@ ...> wrote:
> Your position leads to Oneness not the Trinity.
> Maybe a good question you can answer.
> Where in the NT do we find the word "Theos/God" used explicitly
of the Triune God or the Godhead?
I may be wrong, but it seems as though you might be, in an indirect
way, trying to state a Oneness position. My personal belief is in the
Oneness of the Trinity, but I really don't have any desire to discuss
this further if my assumption is correct. My apologies if I'm wrong.
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- Hi I will be responding to this, but am really pressed for time this week and next.
Tesfaye Robele <tesfa_apologetics@...> wrote:Dear Ken,There are a lot of OT passages which affirms that Jesus is YHWH (for example compare Ps. 102:25 with Heb. 1:10; Ps. 34:8; with 1Pet. 2:3-8; Isaiah 8:12-13 with 1Pet. 3:14-15). We come up with this conclusion in the way you exegete these passages (Jeremiah 23:5-6; Jon 1:1c). Please know that in the NT the word theos refers substitute that the OT YHWH and we should translate OT in the light of NT since Gods revelation is progressive.I do not understand Paul Leonards argument. What is his reasons in order to come up with, Your position leads to Oneness not the Trinity. If John 1:1c used definite article as it is John 1:1b (ton theon) it could lead us Oneness view/Jusus and Father are one person.As far as my knowledge is concerned, your exegesis is very much right!In His Grip,Tesfaye RobeleDirector of the Society============ ========= ========= ======Tesfaye Robele, Founder and DirectorThe Evangelical Society for Apologetics (TESFA)Post Office Box 23045, Code 1000Addis Ababa , EthiopiaTel. 251911247524
E-mail: <apologetics@ ethionet. et>============ ========= ========= =====
Ken Hutson <postoak777@aol. com> wrote:Hello,
First let me say that I believe in the Trinity so that no one will
misunderstand my perspective when I write.
I also belong to another forum, which is more accurately described as
a debate board. I have participated in the JW and the Islam forums.
The debate type of format is quite a challenge, but I think it is
improving my ability to defend the eesential doctrines of the
I noticed on the JW board they (JWs) dismiss the OT prophecies we
consider to prove the Deity of Jesus Christ because of what I would
call their "a god" doctrine which basically says that angels and men
are also called gods (elohim)so Jesus is nothing more than a god
(elohim) as well.
I came across another reference to Jesus deity in Jeremiah 23:5-6
where YHWH says the name of the Messiah will be "YHWH our
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD,
"When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch;
And He will reign as king and act wisely
And do justice and righteousness in the land.
In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His name by which He will be called,
`The LORD our righteousness. '"
From my perspective, when I compare this passage with Jon 1:1c: "the
Word was God", I see YHWH calling Jesus "YHWH." I consider this to be
proof their objection to "the God" (ho theos) calling Jesus "God" is
false, and proof Jesus posesses the same nature/essence as the
Father. In other words, it seems to me it refutes their claim
that Jesus has a God, so he cannot at the same time be that very same
Is my assertion that Jeremiah 23:5-6 shows Jesus and the father must
posess the same nature valid?
How would you express that Jeremiah 23:5-6 refutes their claim Jesus
has a God, so he cannot at the same time be that very same God?
Is it valid to say that when comparing "YHWH our Righteousness" with
John 1:1c, the two statements are in agreement?
How would you use this passage as an exegetical defense of John 1:1c?
What comments would you make in defense of the Trinity concerning
I've asked a lot of questions, so I will understand if you choose not
to try and answer them all in your reply.
Thanks and blessings,
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