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Re: [biblicalapologetics] Re: Jeremiah 23v5-6 & John1v1c

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  • Tesfaye Robele
    Dear Paul Leonard, Which is completely wrong. First, If there is definite article in both theos (1:1b and 1:1c) your argument could be right. There is definite
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 31, 2006
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      Dear Paul Leonard,
       
      Which is completely wrong. First, If there is definite article in both theos (1:1b and 1:1c) your argument could be right. There is definite article in 1:1b but there is no definite article in 1:1c. Second, the word is with (pros) God. When pros proceeded in accusative case it always shows a relationship. So how could it be the Word (logos) is with God the Father and he is also God the Father?
       
      I highly recommend you to read the following two books: Murray Harris’s “Jesus as God” and Rob Bowman’s “Jehovah Witnesses, Jesus Christ, and the Gospel of John”
       
      I hope the discussion should be plausible arguments than a confession of faith.
       
      Tesfaye Robele


      Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:
      Hi Ken,

      Noi I am not promoting Oneness. I am simply pointing out that most Trinitarian positions on scripture actually promote Oneness. John 1;1c is a perfect example. If "Definite" (in 1:1c) it makes the "God" in 1:1b the same "God" in 1:1c. That is Oneness, since Trinitarians say that the 1:1b "God" is the Father.
      Tranlsating it "the Word was God" is a Definite translation of theos in 1:1c.

      Ken Hutson <postoak777@aol. com> wrote:
      --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, Paul Leonard
      <anotherpaul2001@ ...> wrote:
      > Your position leads to Oneness not the Trinity.
      >
      > Maybe a good question you can answer.
      >
      > Where in the NT do we find the word "Theos/God" used explicitly
      of the Triune God or the Godhead?

      Hi Paul,

      I may be wrong, but it seems as though you might be, in an indirect
      way, trying to state a Oneness position. My personal belief is in the
      Oneness of the Trinity, but I really don't have any desire to discuss
      this further if my assumption is correct. My apologies if I'm wrong.

      Blessings,
      Ken Hutson




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    • Paul Leonard
      Hi I will be responding to this, but am really pressed for time this week and next. Tesfaye Robele wrote: Dear Ken, There are a
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 3, 2006
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        Hi I will be responding to this, but am really pressed for time this week and next.

        Tesfaye Robele <tesfa_apologetics@...> wrote:
        Dear Ken,
         
        There are a lot of OT passages which affirms that Jesus is YHWH (for example compare Ps. 102:25 with Heb. 1:10; Ps. 34:8; with 1Pet. 2:3-8; Isaiah 8:12-13 with 1Pet. 3:14-15). We come up with this conclusion in the way you exegete these passages (Jeremiah 23:5-6; Jon 1:1c). Please know that in the NT the word theos refers substitute that the OT YHWH and we should translate OT in the light of NT since God’s revelation is progressive.
         
        I do not understand Paul Leonard’s argument. What is his reasons in order to come up with, “Your position leads to Oneness not the Trinity”. If John 1:1c used definite article as it is John 1:1b (ton theon) it could lead us Oneness view/Jusus and Father are one person.
        As far as my knowledge is concerned, your exegesis is very much right!
        In His Grip,
         
        Tesfaye Robele
        Director of the Society
        ============ ========= ========= ======
        Tesfaye Robele, Founder and Director
        The Evangelical Society for Apologetics (TESFA)
        Post Office Box 23045, Code 1000
        Addis Ababa , Ethiopia
        Tel. 251911247524
        E-mail: <apologetics@ ethionet. et>
        ============ ========= ========= =====


        Ken Hutson <postoak777@aol. com> wrote:
        Hello,

        First let me say that I believe in the Trinity so that no one will
        misunderstand my perspective when I write.

        I also belong to another forum, which is more accurately described as
        a debate board. I have participated in the JW and the Islam forums.
        The debate type of format is quite a challenge, but I think it is
        improving my ability to defend the eesential doctrines of the
        Christian faith.

        I noticed on the JW board they (JWs) dismiss the OT prophecies we
        consider to prove the Deity of Jesus Christ because of what I would
        call their "a god" doctrine which basically says that angels and men
        are also called gods (elohim)so Jesus is nothing more than a god
        (elohim) as well.

        I came across another reference to Jesus deity in Jeremiah 23:5-6
        where YHWH says the name of the Messiah will be "YHWH our
        Righteousness. "

        "Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD,
        "When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch;
        And He will reign as king and act wisely
        And do justice and righteousness in the land.
        In His days Judah will be saved,
        And Israel will dwell securely;
        And this is His name by which He will be called,
        `The LORD our righteousness. '"

        From my perspective, when I compare this passage with Jon 1:1c: "the
        Word was God", I see YHWH calling Jesus "YHWH." I consider this to be
        proof their objection to "the God" (ho theos) calling Jesus "God" is
        false, and proof Jesus posesses the same nature/essence as the
        Father. In other words, it seems to me it refutes their claim
        that Jesus has a God, so he cannot at the same time be that very same
        God.

        Is my assertion that Jeremiah 23:5-6 shows Jesus and the father must
        posess the same nature valid?

        How would you express that Jeremiah 23:5-6 refutes their claim Jesus
        has a God, so he cannot at the same time be that very same God?

        Is it valid to say that when comparing "YHWH our Righteousness" with
        John 1:1c, the two statements are in agreement?

        How would you use this passage as an exegetical defense of John 1:1c?

        What comments would you make in defense of the Trinity concerning
        this verse?

        I've asked a lot of questions, so I will understand if you choose not
        to try and answer them all in your reply.

        Thanks and blessings,
        Ken



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