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Where does the NT abolish Exodus 22:18?

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  • Dave Wave
    For example: You shall not allow a sorceress (witch) to live. (Exodus 22:18) Where does the New Testament teach that THIS law is not to be obeyed by
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 8 12:28 AM
      For example:

      "You shall not allow a sorceress (witch) to live. "
      (Exodus 22:18)

      Where does the New Testament teach that THIS law is
      not to be obeyed by Christians?

      Some of you might refer to Paul's statement about
      obeying the laws of the land:

      "Let every person be in subjection to the governing
      authorities. For there is no authority except from
      God, and those which exist are established by God."
      (Romans 13:1)

      ...and then cite the state laws which forbid murder.

      But there are several problems with Paul's statement:

      1 - How about the Hindu law in the Nepalese
      constitution, and elsewhere such as Islamic countries,
      which forbid you from practicing Christianity? Are
      you going to obey that too? If not, then obviously
      Paul was wrong to say that the only authorities which
      exist were ordained by God.

      2 - God's sovereignty also allowed evil governments to
      exist, who forbid the practice of Christianity.
      Should you therefore do what they say in the name of
      Romans 13:1? No, so Paul was wrong for citing God's
      sovereignty as the reason you should obey secular
      authorities.

      So far, I find that the bible says to kill witches,
      with the New Covenant of Christianity saying nothing
      against it.


      Sure, the NT says "do not murder", but then again, so
      does the same OT, which also said to kill witches.
      All laws have their exceptions. Since we know that
      Exodus 22:18 would be an exception to the "do not
      murder" clause in Exodus 20, why shouldn't it be an
      exception allowed for under the New Covenant?
      Meaning, as a Christian, you don't generally go around
      murdering, but you CAN kill a person once it is proved
      they are a witch.

      Other than your fear of social embarrassment and going
      to jail...what exactly would be wrong with obeying
      Exodus 22:18 today?

      Basically this argument proves that today's Christians
      don't know what true persecution is, and that their
      true allegiance is not to the bible, whatever god may
      command of them. For when it comes to the issue of
      God demanding great sacrifice on their part, such as
      he did with Abraham, suddenly, it's modern theologians
      to the rescue, who insist that this law should be
      swept under the rug along with the laws on animal
      sacrifice. Sorry, ain't nothing in the NT that says
      Jesus fulfilled the Law of killing witches. You are
      just worried about going to jail, not obeying God's
      word.

      If you disagree, then show me biblical precedent for
      abolishing the biblical death-penalty for witches.

      --- Dave

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    • tigerstripes_bdu
      ... I m not a member of any church but I can answer the question above. Yes, Paul stated that Christians must comply to the secular authorities. But
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 8 9:05 PM
        --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Dave Wave
        <empiricism101@...> wrote:
        >
        > For example:
        >
        > "You shall not allow a sorceress (witch) to live. "
        > (Exodus 22:18)
        >
        > Where does the New Testament teach that THIS law is
        > not to be obeyed by Christians?
        >
        > Some of you might refer to Paul's statement about
        > obeying the laws of the land:
        >
        > "Let every person be in subjection to the governing
        > authorities. For there is no authority except from
        > God, and those which exist are established by God."
        > (Romans 13:1)
        >
        > ...and then cite the state laws which forbid murder.
        >
        > But there are several problems with Paul's statement:
        >
        > 1 - How about the Hindu law in the Nepalese
        > constitution, and elsewhere such as Islamic countries,
        > which forbid you from practicing Christianity? Are
        > you going to obey that too? If not, then obviously
        > Paul was wrong to say that the only authorities which
        > exist were ordained by God.
        >
        > 2 - God's sovereignty also allowed evil governments to
        > exist, who forbid the practice of Christianity.
        > Should you therefore do what they say in the name of
        > Romans 13:1? No, so Paul was wrong for citing God's
        > sovereignty as the reason you should obey secular
        > authorities.



        I'm not a member of any church but I can answer the question
        above. Yes, Paul stated that Christians must comply to the
        secular authorities. But Peter stated in Acts 5:29 that Christians
        must obey God over men (secular authorities).

        In other words, Christians are to obey secular laws that does
        not conflict with God's laws and principles only.

        For example, during the reign of the Roman Empire, Caesar
        mandated all Roman citizens to light an incense and place it in
        Caesar's shrine as an act of worship to Caesar. But this law
        was a breach of Christianity to the Christians and they refused to
        comply to it and suffered the consequence----execution!

        Christians believe that it's better to suffer and/or die than betray
        God by breaching his commandents and principles.








        >
        > So far, I find that the bible says to kill witches,
        > with the New Covenant of Christianity saying nothing
        > against it.
        >
        >
        > Sure, the NT says "do not murder", but then again, so
        > does the same OT, which also said to kill witches.
        > All laws have their exceptions. Since we know that
        > Exodus 22:18 would be an exception to the "do not
        > murder" clause in Exodus 20, why shouldn't it be an
        > exception allowed for under the New Covenant?
        > Meaning, as a Christian, you don't generally go around
        > murdering, but you CAN kill a person once it is proved
        > they are a witch.
        >
        > Other than your fear of social embarrassment and going
        > to jail...what exactly would be wrong with obeying
        > Exodus 22:18 today?
        >
        > Basically this argument proves that today's Christians
        > don't know what true persecution is, and that their
        > true allegiance is not to the bible, whatever god may
        > command of them. For when it comes to the issue of
        > God demanding great sacrifice on their part, such as
        > he did with Abraham, suddenly, it's modern theologians
        > to the rescue, who insist that this law should be
        > swept under the rug along with the laws on animal
        > sacrifice. Sorry, ain't nothing in the NT that says
        > Jesus fulfilled the Law of killing witches. You are
        > just worried about going to jail, not obeying God's
        > word.
        >
        > If you disagree, then show me biblical precedent for
        > abolishing the biblical death-penalty for witches.
        >
        > --- Dave
        >
        >
        __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
        around
        > http://mail.yahoo.com
        >
      • Paul Leonard
        Just my two cents, But the law on killing witches was given to Jews/Israelites. In turn they were to handle it as they did all other infractions. Bring the
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 8 9:23 PM
          Just my two cents,

          But the law on killing witches was given to Jews/Israelites. In turn they were to handle it as they did all other infractions. Bring the party charged before the Elders at the city gates and if found guilty stone that person, with the whole community participating.

          So if that law id to be obeyed it is to be obeyed by Jews and in the proper manner as well. Since I am not  Jew I don't have to obey it, as I am not under that law.

          Maybe you should ask a Jew or even a messianic Jew about it.

          tigerstripes_bdu <tigerstripes_bdu@...> wrote:
          --- In biblicalapologetics @yahoogroups. com, Dave Wave
          <empiricism101@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > For example:
          >
          > "You shall not allow a sorceress (witch) to live. "
          > (Exodus 22:18)
          >
          > Where does the New Testament teach that THIS law is
          > not to be obeyed by Christians?
          >
          > Some of you might refer to Paul's statement about
          > obeying the laws of the land:
          >
          > "Let every person be in subjection to the governing
          > authorities. For there is no authority except from
          > God, and those which exist are established by God."
          > (Romans 13:1)
          >
          > ...and then cite the state laws which forbid murder.
          >
          > But there are several problems with Paul's statement:
          >
          > 1 - How about the Hindu law in the Nepalese
          > constitution, and elsewhere such as Islamic countries,
          > which forbid you from practicing Christianity? Are
          > you going to obey that too? If not, then obviously
          > Paul was wrong to say that the only authorities which
          > exist were ordained by God.
          >
          > 2 - God's sovereignty also allowed evil governments to
          > exist, who forbid the practice of Christianity.
          > Should you therefore do what they say in the name of
          > Romans 13:1? No, so Paul was wrong for citing God's
          > sovereignty as the reason you should obey secular
          > authorities.

          I'm not a member of any church but I can answer the question
          above. Yes, Paul stated that Christians must comply to the
          secular authorities. But Peter stated in Acts 5:29 that Christians
          must obey God over men (secular authorities) .

          In other words, Christians are to obey secular laws that does
          not conflict with God's laws and principles only.

          For example, during the reign of the Roman Empire, Caesar
          mandated all Roman citizens to light an incense and place it in
          Caesar's shrine as an act of worship to Caesar. But this law
          was a breach of Christianity to the Christians and they refused to
          comply to it and suffered the consequence- ---execution!

          Christians believe that it's better to suffer and/or die than betray
          God by breaching his commandents and principles.

          >
          > So far, I find that the bible says to kill witches,
          > with the New Covenant of Christianity saying nothing
          > against it.
          >
          >
          > Sure, the NT says "do not murder", but then again, so
          > does the same OT, which also said to kill witches.
          > All laws have their exceptions. Since we know that
          > Exodus 22:18 would be an exception to the "do not
          > murder" clause in Exodus 20, why shouldn't it be an
          > exception allowed for under the New Covenant?
          > Meaning, as a Christian, you don't generally go around
          > murdering, but you CAN kill a person once it is proved
          > they are a witch.
          >
          > Other than your fear of social embarrassment and going
          > to jail...what exactly would be wrong with obeying
          > Exodus 22:18 today?
          >
          > Basically this argument proves that today's Christians
          > don't know what true persecution is, and that their
          > true allegiance is not to the bible, whatever god may
          > command of them. For when it comes to the issue of
          > God demanding great sacrifice on their part, such as
          > he did with Abraham, suddenly, it's modern theologians
          > to the rescue, who insist that this law should be
          > swept under the rug along with the laws on animal
          > sacrifice. Sorry, ain't nothing in the NT that says
          > Jesus fulfilled the Law of killing witches. You are
          > just worried about going to jail, not obeying God's
          > word.
          >
          > If you disagree, then show me biblical precedent for
          > abolishing the biblical death-penalty for witches.
          >
          > --- Dave
          >
          >
          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
          around
          > http://mail. yahoo.com
          >


        • Dave Wave
          ... So was the law against adultery. ... What criteria do you employ to determine with ancient Israelite Laws apply to modern Christians and which don t? For
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 10 7:30 PM
            --- Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:

            > Just my two cents,
            >
            > But the law on killing witches was given to
            > Jews/Israelites.

            So was the law against adultery.

            > In turn they were to handle it as
            > they did all other infractions. Bring the party
            > charged before the Elders at the city gates and if
            > found guilty stone that person, with the whole
            > community participating.

            What criteria do you employ to determine with ancient
            Israelite Laws apply to modern Christians and which
            don't?

            For example, you believe "thou shalt not committ
            adultery" is for modern Christians, but not it's
            penalty of death, found in Leviticus 20:10.

            "If there is a man who commits adultery with another
            man's wife, one who commits adultery with his friend's
            wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be
            put to death."

            If you still have to obey the adultery law, how can
            you abolish the punishment prescribed by the same?

            Is god just in a better mood now that Jesus has died
            for everybody?

            > So if that law id to be obeyed it is to be obeyed
            > by Jews and in the proper manner as well. Since I
            > am not Jew I don't have to obey it, as I am not
            > under that law.

            Yes, you are under the law. If you didn't obey any of
            the 10 commandments, you would be shunned by
            Christians, as apostle Paul says they should shun you.
            To say that you are not under the Law, but that you
            must suffer disfellowshiping if you don't obey those
            laws, is a contradiction.

            You may as well insist that you are not under the
            speed limit law, and yet if you don't obey it, you'll
            still get a ticket just like everybody else does.

            Apostle Paul's "not under the Law" doctrine is a total
            farce.

            > Maybe you should ask a Jew or even a messianic Jew
            > about it.

            Nope, I'm asking modern-day Gentile Christians. Since
            there are lots of laws that were given to ancient
            Israelites which YOU hold to today, your argument that
            the law for killing witches being given to the
            Israelites doesn't suddenly mean that Gentiles aren't
            to observe it.


            --- Dave

            __________________________________________________
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            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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          • Dave Wave
            ... Ok, then the secular law says murdering a person apart from self-defense is illegal...but the Old Testament says you must kill a witch. Are you going to
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 10 7:33 PM
              --- tigerstripes_bdu <tigerstripes_bdu@...>
              wrote:

              > I'm not a member of any church but I can answer the
              > question
              > above. Yes, Paul stated that Christians must
              > comply to the
              > secular authorities. But Peter stated in Acts 5:29
              > that Christians
              > must obey God over men (secular authorities).

              Ok, then the secular law says murdering a person apart
              from self-defense is illegal...but the Old Testament
              says you must kill a witch.

              Are you going to obey God (kill witches) or men (don't
              kill witches).

              > In other words, Christians are to obey secular
              > laws that does
              > not conflict with God's laws and principles only.

              Ok, then is in this case, the modern law in America
              conflicts with God's biblical command to kill witches.

              You should obey God rather than man.

              --- Dave

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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            • Michael Hamblin
              ... Do you want me to kill witches? Look Dave, I am more than happy to have an honest discussion about the relationship of the law to grace - that is, after
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 10 8:33 PM
                On Sat, 10 Jun 2006, Dave Wave wrote:

                > Are you going to obey God (kill witches) or men (don't
                > kill witches).

                Do you want me to kill witches?

                Look Dave, I am more than happy to have an honest discussion about the
                relationship of the law to grace - that is, after all, one of the major
                discussions in much of the New Testament epistles. But your discussion
                isn't an honest one. There are a number of Old Testament commands that
                Christians do not follow to the letter that some people interpret them -
                funny thing is that Jesus didn't follow them to the letter that Pharisees
                interpreted them either. The trouble is that you are trying to highlight
                an apparent inconsistency where there is none. None of us here need to
                waste our time responding to an argument that is not posed with the
                interest of discovering truth.

                Besides, if we started killing witches, we'd have to kill incorrigible
                infidels as well. If you want me to kill witches, by what reasoning can I
                ignore the moral imperative to kill you as well? Please Dave, by your own
                argument, tell me why shouldn't I kill you?

                ---
                Michael Hamblin michaelh@...
                3560 Alma Rd. Apt 623 http://www.evangelicalresources.org/
                Richardson, TX 75080-1104 Home Phone: 972-437-2450
              • Paul Leonard
                Hi Dave, See below: ... (Dave) So was the law against adultery. (Paul) BUT the Law about adultery was restated as part of Christ s Law and the penalty was
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 10 9:11 PM
                  Hi Dave,

                  See below:

                  Dave Wave <empiricism101@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > But the law on killing witches was given to
                  > Jews/Israelites.

                  (Dave) So was the law against adultery.

                  (Paul) BUT the Law about adultery was restated as part of Christ's Law and the penalty was expulsion from the congregation Not Death. Christ's law now takes precedence.No mention of witches in the NT in regard to Christs Law..
                  (Dave) What criteria do you employ to determine with ancient Israelite Laws apply to modern Christians and which don't?
                  (Paul) Christians have been given specific laws as well as principles. Look at 1 Cor For example:
                  1 Corinthians 6:9-10   9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God ? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,  10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God .
                  Here we have a list of things that a Christian will no longer be involved in. Note if a Christian were to kill an adulterer as an example, how could Paul say that is whay "some of you were" above? He couldn't unless the old penalty was no longer in force. Here is an example of the direction NOW.
                  1 Cor 5:11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
                  Note; it to quit associating with such a person and to "remove" the wicked man from amomg yourselves. This is excommunication. That is the penalty now, if repentance is not shown.
                  (Dave)you believe "thou shalt not committ adultery" is for modern Christians, but not it's penalty of death, found in Leviticus 20:10.
                  (Paul) That is  because the Old law of Moses has no effect any longer. The most anyone can argue is that it is still in force for Jews. Remember Circumcision is a part of that law also and what does Acts 15 say:
                  Acts 15:24  24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: ...   28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;  29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
                  Note Gentile Christians were not under the law as they did not have to get circumcised.
                  (Dave) "If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, one who commits adultery with his friend's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

                  If you still have to obey the adultery law, how can you abolish the punishment prescribed by the same?

                  (Paul) Because we don't have to obey the "adultery Law" found in the OT.  It is no longer in force. Many of the old Law prohibitions have been restated in the NT and are inforce for Christians, but the penalty changed.
                  (Dave) Is god just in a better mood now that Jesus has died for everybody?

                  (Paul) No, but he made arrangements on the basis of His Son's sacrifice, which is so much better than the old animal sacrifices, so that he can extend mercy to sinners for a period of time. IF they repent they are forgiven, if not they are expelled from the congregation.
                  (Dave) Yes, you are under the law. If you didn't obey any of the 10 commandments, you would be shunned by Christians, as apostle Paul says they should shun you. To say that you are not under the Law, but that you must suffer disfellowshiping if you don't obey those laws, is a contradiction.
                  (Paul) But that is the NEW Law of Christ. The 10 Commandments are part of the Old Law given to Moses and in force ONLY on Jews and Jewish proselytes. That is why the penalty is expulsion or disfellowshipping. That is the NEW penalty to go with the NEW Law.The 10 Commandments are not in force.

                  (Dave) You may as well insist that you are not under the speed limit law, and yet if you don't obey it, you'll still get a ticket just like everybody else does.
                  (Paul) Uh Dave, I am under the NEW speed limit law. Remember the OLD one about not exceeding 55 MPH? Now we have a new speed law and in some places you can go 70 MPH or even more, with out breaking the NEW Law.

                  (Dave) Apostle Paul's "not under the Law" doctrine is a total farce.
                  (Paul) Then maybe you should  go kill a witch, if you think it is still God’s will. I don’t see it, as I know what the Bible says about it.

                  > Maybe you should ask a Jew or even a messianic Jew
                  > about it.

                  (Dave) Nope, I'm asking modern-day Gentile Christians. Since there are lots of laws that were given to ancient Israelites which YOU hold to today, your argument that the law for killing witches being given to the Israelites doesn't suddenly mean that Gentiles aren't
                  to observe it.

                  (Paul) Sorry, Christians are under the NEW law of Christ.  Just gave you an example in Acts 15 where gentiles at least are not under the Law to be circumcised. 1 Corinthians 6 shows that certain practices are still to be avoided though the penalty has changed for Christians. I hold to none of the old laws of Israel , except those that have been RESTATED and have NEW sanctions listed with them.
                  Remember under that old Law you had to give a tenth to the Temple Priests . So where are they? You had to go to the Temple and offer a sacrifice with the birth of each child, so where is the Temple to go to? You were unclean for many reasons according to that old Law, so should we follow EVERY jot and title of that law? Some are impossible to obey any longer as the Temple and the Priesthood no longer exist. Are you going to destroy your house if Mold is found in it? That was part of the Law as well. No repair, you tore it down. When was the last time you went to Jerusalem , built your booth and celebrated the feast of booths, according to the Law? That is all gone. New laws now.


                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
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                • Paul Leonard
                  Hi Michael, Did you go to a Theological school in Waxahachie? ... Michael Hamblin michaelh@ductape.net 3560 Alma Rd. Apt 623
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 10 9:12 PM
                    Hi Michael,

                    Did you go to a Theological school in Waxahachie?

                    Michael Hamblin <michaelh@...> wrote:

                    ---
                    Michael Hamblin michaelh@ductape. net
                    3560 Alma Rd. Apt 623 http://www.evangeli calresources. org/
                    Richardson, TX 75080-1104 Home Phone: 972-437-2450


                  • Michael Hamblin
                    ... No, I only visited ;) ... Michael Hamblin michaelh@ductape.net 3560 Alma Rd. Apt 623 http://www.evangelicalresources.org/
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 10 10:40 PM
                      On Sat, 10 Jun 2006, Paul Leonard wrote:

                      > Did you go to a Theological school in Waxahachie?

                      No, I only visited ;)

                      ---
                      Michael Hamblin michaelh@...
                      3560 Alma Rd. Apt 623 http://www.evangelicalresources.org/
                      Richardson, TX 75080-1104 Home Phone: 972-437-2450
                    • Paul Leonard
                      Uh huh, And did you know a couple of JW s in town named Ken M. and Leonard W.? ... No, I only visited ;) ... Michael Hamblin
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 11 8:31 PM
                        Uh huh,

                        And did you know a couple of JW's in town named Ken M. and Leonard W.?

                        Michael Hamblin <michaelh@...> wrote:
                        On Sat, 10 Jun 2006, Paul Leonard wrote:

                        > Did you go to a Theological school in Waxahachie?

                        No, I only visited ;)

                        ---
                        Michael Hamblin michaelh@ductape. net
                        3560 Alma Rd. Apt 623 http://www.evangeli calresources. org/
                        Richardson, TX 75080-1104 Home Phone: 972-437-2450


                      • Michael Hamblin
                        ... I m afraid not. My interaction with JW s has been minimal. ... Michael Hamblin michaelh@ductape.net 3560 Alma Rd. Apt 623
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 11 9:53 PM
                          On Sun, 11 Jun 2006, Paul Leonard wrote:

                          > And did you know a couple of JW's in town named Ken M. and Leonard W.?

                          I'm afraid not. My interaction with JW's has been minimal.

                          ---
                          Michael Hamblin michaelh@...
                          3560 Alma Rd. Apt 623 http://www.evangelicalresources.org/
                          Richardson, TX 75080-1104 Home Phone: 972-437-2450
                        • Paul Leonard
                          Humm, Your name just sounds familiar and I can t place it. ... I m afraid not. My interaction with JW s has been minimal. ... Michael Hamblin
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jun 12 11:47 AM
                            Humm,

                            Your name just sounds familiar and I can't place it.

                            Michael Hamblin <michaelh@...> wrote:
                            On Sun, 11 Jun 2006, Paul Leonard wrote:

                            > And did you know a couple of JW's in town named Ken M. and Leonard W.?

                            I'm afraid not. My interaction with JW's has been minimal.

                            ---
                            Michael Hamblin michaelh@ductape. net
                            3560 Alma Rd. Apt 623 http://www.evangeli calresources. org/
                            Richardson, TX 75080-1104 Home Phone: 972-437-2450


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