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but but but, pantheism

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  • Dave Wave
    ... yes, but isn t god altogether other ? I mean, when you talk about god s energy, you aren t talking about physical forms, right? and yet you use analogies
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 31, 2005
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      --- Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:

      > Uh Dave,
      >
      > How was Seth different than Adam? Note he was by several standards.
      >
      > The idea of God using his energy to make matter, does not require that all matter thus made be
      > either conscious or "God'. It just IS. Man can take matter and create energy and theoretically
      > take energy and make matter. Is that matter the same as the one making it?
      >
      > The matter is NOT energy. In theory you could burn a bit of your hair, but the energy given
      > off is not you.If you released the energy stored in one hair you would level a good part of the
      > countryside. But that energy is not you. If you took the energy and made matter from it, the new
      > matter would not be you.

      yes, but isn't god "altogether other"?

      I mean, when you talk about god's energy, you aren't talking about physical forms, right?

      and yet you use analogies to physical energy/matter, when almost everybody agrees that god's own
      power is "altogether other".




      __________________________________
      Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
      http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
    • Paul Leonard
      Hi Dave, I am not sure of your point. God s energy exists. It is different than say His Power as it is spoken of in regards to the Holy Spirit. That energy
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 1, 2006
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        Hi Dave,
         
        I am not sure of your point. God's "energy" exists. It is different than say His Power as it is spoken of in regards to the Holy Spirit. That energy can be converted to matter, and I am sure he knows how to do it, if we do. He just has the power/energy and the Power/HS to do it as he wishes.
         
        ESV
        Isaiah 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.
         
        (Jeremiah 32:17) "Alas, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah! Here you yourself have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm. The whole matter is not too wonderful for you yourself.
         
        When I speak of His "power" I am not speaking of physical forms at all. I am pointing out that His "power", even if "other", can be converted to matter, as he wishes.

        Dave Wave <empiricism101@...> wrote:
        --- Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:

        > Uh Dave,
        >   
        >   How was Seth different than Adam? Note he was by several standards.
        >   
        >   The idea of God using his energy to make matter, does not require that all matter thus made be
        > either conscious or "God'. It just IS. Man can take matter and create energy and theoretically
        > take energy and make matter. Is that matter the same as the one making it?
        >   
        >   The matter is NOT energy. In theory you could burn a bit of your hair, but the energy given
        > off is not you.If you released the energy stored in one hair you would level a good part of the
        > countryside. But that energy is not you. If you took the energy and made matter from it, the new
        > matter would not be you.

        yes, but isn't god "altogether other"?

        I mean, when you talk about god's energy, you aren't talking about physical forms, right?

        and yet you use analogies to physical energy/matter, when almost everybody agrees that god's own
        power is "altogether other".


             
                   
        __________________________________
        Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
        http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/

      • Jeff Koenig
        I don t think that creation involves God somehow converting some of his own substance (energy or anything else) into matter. I think it involves an exercise
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 2, 2006
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          I don't think that creation involves God somehow converting some of his own substance (energy or anything else) into matter.  I think it involves an exercise of his might to speak into existence that which had no existence before -- creation from nothing by an all-powerful being.
           
          I've never heard any orthodox Christian claim that creation was from something (via transforming God's "energy" into matter).


          From: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Leonard
          Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 7:35 PM
          To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] but but but, pantheism

          Hi Dave,
           
          I am not sure of your point. God's "energy" exists. It is different than say His Power as it is spoken of in regards to the Holy Spirit. That energy can be converted to matter, and I am sure he knows how to do it, if we do. He just has the power/energy and the Power/HS to do it as he wishes.
           
          ESV
          Isaiah 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.
           
          (Jeremiah 32:17) "Alas, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah! Here you yourself have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm. The whole matter is not too wonderful for you yourself.
           
          When I speak of His "power" I am not speaking of physical forms at all. I am pointing out that His "power", even if "other", can be converted to matter, as he wishes.

          Dave Wave <empiricism101@...> wrote:
          --- Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:

          > Uh Dave,
          >   
          >   How was Seth different than Adam? Note he was by several standards.
          >   
          >   The idea of God using his energy to make matter, does not require that all matter thus made be
          > either conscious or "God'. It just IS. Man can take matter and create energy and theoretically
          > take energy and make matter. Is that matter the same as the one making it?
          >   
          >   The matter is NOT energy. In theory you could burn a bit of your hair, but the energy given
          > off is not you.If you released the energy stored in one hair you would level a good part of the
          > countryside. But that energy is not you. If you took the energy and made matter from it, the new
          > matter would not be you.

          yes, but isn't god "altogether other"?

          I mean, when you talk about god's energy, you aren't talking about physical forms, right?

          and yet you use analogies to physical energy/matter, when almost everybody agrees that god's own
          power is "altogether other".


               
                     
          __________________________________
          Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
          http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/

        • Paul Leonard
          You are certainly welcome to your opinion. But it is simply your opinion. I simply proided my opinion, based on scientific potential and scripture. I also
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 3, 2006
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            You are certainly welcome to your opinion. But it is simply your opinion. I simply proided my opinion, based on scientific potential and scripture. I also believe most people would call Augutine a Christian and he was I believe the one who made a apoint of sayin you get nothing from nothing.While I believe God can do as he wishes, I see no problem with my view as it is certainly a possible way for God to do it.

            Jeff Koenig <jkoenig@...> wrote:
            I don't think that creation involves God somehow converting some of his own substance (energy or anything else) into matter.  I think it involves an exercise of his might to speak into existence that which had no existence before -- creation from nothing by an all-powerful being.
             
            I've never heard any orthodox Christian claim that creation was from something (via transforming God's "energy" into matter).


            From: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Leonard
            Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 7:35 PM
            To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] but but but, pantheism

            Hi Dave,
             
            I am not sure of your point. God's "energy" exists. It is different than say His Power as it is spoken of in regards to the Holy Spirit. That energy can be converted to matter, and I am sure he knows how to do it, if we do. He just has the power/energy and the Power/HS to do it as he wishes.
             
            ESV
            Isaiah 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.
             
            (Jeremiah 32:17) "Alas, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah! Here you yourself have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm. The whole matter is not too wonderful for you yourself.
             
            When I speak of His "power" I am not speaking of physical forms at all. I am pointing out that His "power", even if "other", can be converted to matter, as he wishes.

            Dave Wave <empiricism101@...> wrote:
            --- Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:

            > Uh Dave,
            >   
            >   How was Seth different than Adam? Note he was by several standards.
            >   
            >   The idea of God using his energy to make matter, does not require that all matter thus made be
            > either conscious or "God'. It just IS. Man can take matter and create energy and theoretically
            > take energy and make matter. Is that matter the same as the one making it?
            >   
            >   The matter is NOT energy. In theory you could burn a bit of your hair, but the energy given
            > off is not you.If you released the energy stored in one hair you would level a good part of the
            > countryside. But that energy is not you. If you took the energy and made matter from it, the new
            > matter would not be you.

            yes, but isn't god "altogether other"?

            I mean, when you talk about god's energy, you aren't talking about physical forms, right?

            and yet you use analogies to physical energy/matter, when almost everybody agrees that god's own
            power is "altogether other".


                 
                       
            __________________________________
            Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
            http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/


          • Jeff Koenig
            Is there any biblical support for the notion that God created the universe from part of his own substance or energy ? Wouldn t that somehow diminist God s
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 4, 2006
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              Is there any biblical support for the notion that God created the universe from part of his own "substance" or "energy"?  Wouldn't that somehow diminist God's being?  Is it possible for God to diminish himself (by converting some of his energy/substance into the universe)?


              From: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Leonard
              Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 9:32 PM
              To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [biblicalapologetics] but but but, pantheism

              You are certainly welcome to your opinion. But it is simply your opinion. I simply proided my opinion, based on scientific potential and scripture. I also believe most people would call Augutine a Christian and he was I believe the one who made a apoint of sayin you get nothing from nothing.While I believe God can do as he wishes, I see no problem with my view as it is certainly a possible way for God to do it.

              Jeff Koenig <jkoenig@...> wrote:
              I don't think that creation involves God somehow converting some of his own substance (energy or anything else) into matter.  I think it involves an exercise of his might to speak into existence that which had no existence before -- creation from nothing by an all-powerful being.
               
              I've never heard any orthodox Christian claim that creation was from something (via transforming God's "energy" into matter).


              From: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Leonard
              Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 7:35 PM
              To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] but but but, pantheism

              Hi Dave,
               
              I am not sure of your point. God's "energy" exists. It is different than say His Power as it is spoken of in regards to the Holy Spirit. That energy can be converted to matter, and I am sure he knows how to do it, if we do. He just has the power/energy and the Power/HS to do it as he wishes.
               
              ESV
              Isaiah 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.
               
              (Jeremiah 32:17) "Alas, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah! Here you yourself have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm. The whole matter is not too wonderful for you yourself.
               
              When I speak of His "power" I am not speaking of physical forms at all. I am pointing out that His "power", even if "other", can be converted to matter, as he wishes.

              Dave Wave <empiricism101@...> wrote:
              --- Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:

              > Uh Dave,
              >   
              >   How was Seth different than Adam? Note he was by several standards.
              >   
              >   The idea of God using his energy to make matter, does not require that all matter thus made be
              > either conscious or "God'. It just IS. Man can take matter and create energy and theoretically
              > take energy and make matter. Is that matter the same as the one making it?
              >   
              >   The matter is NOT energy. In theory you could burn a bit of your hair, but the energy given
              > off is not you.If you released the energy stored in one hair you would level a good part of the
              > countryside. But that energy is not you. If you took the energy and made matter from it, the new
              > matter would not be you.

              yes, but isn't god "altogether other"?

              I mean, when you talk about god's energy, you aren't talking about physical forms, right?

              and yet you use analogies to physical energy/matter, when almost everybody agrees that god's own
              power is "altogether other".


                   
                         
              __________________________________
              Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
              http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/


            • Paul Leonard
              Jeff, Consider Gen 1:26. Then examine HOW Adam and Eve were created. Eve came from Adam but Adam was not diminished. He still had all his ribs. If this is an
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 4, 2006
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                Jeff,
                 
                Consider Gen 1:26.
                 
                Then examine HOW Adam and Eve were created. Eve came from Adam but Adam was not diminished. He still had all his ribs.
                 
                If this is an "image" of how God works, we can see Jesus from God and then everything else through Jesus. Just as all other humans came through Eve.
                 
                Thus creation is not exnihlo but FROM God THROUGH Jesus as scripture tells us.
                 
                NIV
                1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


                Jeff Koenig <jkoenig@...> wrote:
                Is there any biblical support for the notion that God created the universe from part of his own "substance" or "energy"?  Wouldn't that somehow diminist God's being?  Is it possible for God to diminish himself (by converting some of his energy/substance into the universe)?


                From: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Leonard
                Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 9:32 PM
                To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [biblicalapologetics] but but but, pantheism

                You are certainly welcome to your opinion. But it is simply your opinion. I simply proided my opinion, based on scientific potential and scripture. I also believe most people would call Augutine a Christian and he was I believe the one who made a apoint of sayin you get nothing from nothing.While I believe God can do as he wishes, I see no problem with my view as it is certainly a possible way for God to do it.

                Jeff Koenig <jkoenig@...> wrote:
                I don't think that creation involves God somehow converting some of his own substance (energy or anything else) into matter.  I think it involves an exercise of his might to speak into existence that which had no existence before -- creation from nothing by an all-powerful being.
                 
                I've never heard any orthodox Christian claim that creation was from something (via transforming God's "energy" into matter).


                From: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Leonard
                Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 7:35 PM
                To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] but but but, pantheism

                Hi Dave,
                 
                I am not sure of your point. God's "energy" exists. It is different than say His Power as it is spoken of in regards to the Holy Spirit. That energy can be converted to matter, and I am sure he knows how to do it, if we do. He just has the power/energy and the Power/HS to do it as he wishes.
                 
                ESV
                Isaiah 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.
                 
                (Jeremiah 32:17) "Alas, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah! Here you yourself have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm. The whole matter is not too wonderful for you yourself.
                 
                When I speak of His "power" I am not speaking of physical forms at all. I am pointing out that His "power", even if "other", can be converted to matter, as he wishes.

                Dave Wave <empiricism101@...> wrote:
                --- Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:

                > Uh Dave,
                >   
                >   How was Seth different than Adam? Note he was by several standards.
                >   
                >   The idea of God using his energy to make matter, does not require that all matter thus made be
                > either conscious or "God'. It just IS. Man can take matter and create energy and theoretically
                > take energy and make matter. Is that matter the same as the one making it?
                >   
                >   The matter is NOT energy. In theory you could burn a bit of your hair, but the energy given
                > off is not you.If you released the energy stored in one hair you would level a good part of the
                > countryside. But that energy is not you. If you took the energy and made matter from it, the new
                > matter would not be you.

                yes, but isn't god "altogether other"?

                I mean, when you talk about god's energy, you aren't talking about physical forms, right?

                and yet you use analogies to physical energy/matter, when almost everybody agrees that god's own
                power is "altogether other".


                     
                           
                __________________________________
                Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
                http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/



              • Jeff Koenig
                Adam was diminished, since he was minus a rib. Also, the creation of Adam (from pre-existing dust) is not the same as the original creation of the universe
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 5, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Adam was diminished, since he was minus a rib.  Also, the creation of Adam (from pre-existing dust) is not the same as the original creation of the universe (when there was no pre-existing material, nothing but God).
                   
                  I agree that the Father created the world through the Son.  But the point under discussion is whether the Son in creating the world somehow trasmuted some part of himself into the world, rather than creating it ex nihilo.  "Through" the Son means that the Son created the world, per John 1, and thus that the Father created the world through him.
                   
                  Just because God created man in "his own image," does not mean that Jesus was created (your doctrine I presume).  Jesus is the "image" of God in the sense that he is the exact representation of his nature in human form -- God (the Son) having taken on human nature.  He was not "created" in the image of God like Adam was.  Having been created in the image of God, Adam was like God in certain respects (e.g., having the ability to think and reason, etc.).  Being the image of the invisible God, Christ is like God (and IS God) and perfectly reflects his nature in human form.  I don't think the notion that the Son was created (and then created the world) can be supported from scripture. 
                   

                  Colossians 1:15 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.

                  2 Corinthians 4:3-6 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

                  John 1:14-18 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'" 16 For of His fulness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

                  .

                  Hebrews 1:1-4 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.



                  From: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Leonard
                  Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:55 PM
                  To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [biblicalapologetics] but but but, pantheism

                  Jeff,
                   
                  Consider Gen 1:26.
                   
                  Then examine HOW Adam and Eve were created. Eve came from Adam but Adam was not diminished. He still had all his ribs.
                   
                  If this is an "image" of how God works, we can see Jesus from God and then everything else through Jesus. Just as all other humans came through Eve.
                   
                  Thus creation is not exnihlo but FROM God THROUGH Jesus as scripture tells us.
                   
                  NIV
                  1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


                  Jeff Koenig <jkoenig@...> wrote:
                  Is there any biblical support for the notion that God created the universe from part of his own "substance" or "energy"?  Wouldn't that somehow diminist God's being?  Is it possible for God to diminish himself (by converting some of his energy/substance into the universe)?


                  From: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Leonard
                  Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 9:32 PM
                  To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [biblicalapologetics] but but but, pantheism

                  You are certainly welcome to your opinion. But it is simply your opinion. I simply proided my opinion, based on scientific potential and scripture. I also believe most people would call Augutine a Christian and he was I believe the one who made a apoint of sayin you get nothing from nothing.While I believe God can do as he wishes, I see no problem with my view as it is certainly a possible way for God to do it.

                  Jeff Koenig <jkoenig@...> wrote:
                  I don't think that creation involves God somehow converting some of his own substance (energy or anything else) into matter.  I think it involves an exercise of his might to speak into existence that which had no existence before -- creation from nothing by an all-powerful being.
                   
                  I've never heard any orthodox Christian claim that creation was from something (via transforming God's "energy" into matter).


                  From: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Leonard
                  Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 7:35 PM
                  To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] but but but, pantheism

                  Hi Dave,
                   
                  I am not sure of your point. God's "energy" exists. It is different than say His Power as it is spoken of in regards to the Holy Spirit. That energy can be converted to matter, and I am sure he knows how to do it, if we do. He just has the power/energy and the Power/HS to do it as he wishes.
                   
                  ESV
                  Isaiah 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.
                   
                  (Jeremiah 32:17) "Alas, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah! Here you yourself have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm. The whole matter is not too wonderful for you yourself.
                   
                  When I speak of His "power" I am not speaking of physical forms at all. I am pointing out that His "power", even if "other", can be converted to matter, as he wishes.

                  Dave Wave <empiricism101@...> wrote:
                  --- Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:

                  > Uh Dave,
                  >   
                  >   How was Seth different than Adam? Note he was by several standards.
                  >   
                  >   The idea of God using his energy to make matter, does not require that all matter thus made be
                  > either conscious or "God'. It just IS. Man can take matter and create energy and theoretically
                  > take energy and make matter. Is that matter the same as the one making it?
                  >   
                  >   The matter is NOT energy. In theory you could burn a bit of your hair, but the energy given
                  > off is not you.If you released the energy stored in one hair you would level a good part of the
                  > countryside. But that energy is not you. If you took the energy and made matter from it, the new
                  > matter would not be you.

                  yes, but isn't god "altogether other"?

                  I mean, when you talk about god's energy, you aren't talking about physical forms, right?

                  and yet you use analogies to physical energy/matter, when almost everybody agrees that god's own
                  power is "altogether other".


                       
                             
                  __________________________________
                  Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
                  http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/



                • Paul Leonard
                  Hi Jeff, Adam was not diminsihed. He had the same number of ribs he started with. He was created perfect and remained so after Eve s creation. Adam and Eve had
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 5, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Jeff,
                     
                    Adam was not diminsihed. He had the same number of ribs he started with. He was created perfect and remained so after Eve's creation. Adam and Eve had the same number of ribs.
                     
                    The parallel as to creation is in line with Gen 1:26 Let us create in "our" image. Eve and all other human life came FROM Adam Through Eve.All creation, according to scripture came FROM God and through Jesus. Not  from nothing. God is not nothing.

                    Jeff Koenig <jkoenig@...> wrote:
                    Adam was diminished, since he was minus a rib.  Also, the creation of Adam (from pre-existing dust) is not the same as the original creation of the universe (when there was no pre-existing material, nothing but God).
                     
                    I agree that the Father created the world through the Son.  But the point under discussion is whether the Son in creating the world somehow trasmuted some part of himself into the world, rather than creating it ex nihilo.  "Through" the Son means that the Son created the world, per John 1, and thus that the Father created the world through him.
                     
                    Just because God created man in "his own image," does not mean that Jesus was created (your doctrine I presume).  Jesus is the "image" of God in the sense that he is the exact representation of his nature in human form -- God (the Son) having taken on human nature.  He was not "created" in the image of God like Adam was.  Having been created in the image of God, Adam was like God in certain respects (e.g., having the ability to think and reason, etc.).  Being the image of the invisible God, Christ is like God (and IS God) and perfectly reflects his nature in human form.  I don't think the notion that the Son was created (and then created the world) can be supported from scripture. 
                     
                    Colossians 1:15 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.
                    2 Corinthians 4:3-6 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
                    John 1:14-18 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'" 16 For of His fulness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
                    .
                    Hebrews 1:1-4 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.


                    From: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Leonard
                    Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:55 PM
                    To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [biblicalapologetics] but but but, pantheism

                    Jeff,
                     
                    Consider Gen 1:26.
                     
                    Then examine HOW Adam and Eve were created. Eve came from Adam but Adam was not diminished. He still had all his ribs.
                     
                    If this is an "image" of how God works, we can see Jesus from God and then everything else through Jesus. Just as all other humans came through Eve.
                     
                    Thus creation is not exnihlo but FROM God THROUGH Jesus as scripture tells us.
                     
                    NIV
                    1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


                    Jeff Koenig <jkoenig@...> wrote:
                    Is there any biblical support for the notion that God created the universe from part of his own "substance" or "energy"?  Wouldn't that somehow diminist God's being?  Is it possible for God to diminish himself (by converting some of his energy/substance into the universe)?


                    From: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Leonard
                    Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 9:32 PM
                    To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [biblicalapologetics] but but but, pantheism

                    You are certainly welcome to your opinion. But it is simply your opinion. I simply proided my opinion, based on scientific potential and scripture. I also believe most people would call Augutine a Christian and he was I believe the one who made a apoint of sayin you get nothing from nothing.While I believe God can do as he wishes, I see no problem with my view as it is certainly a possible way for God to do it.

                    Jeff Koenig <jkoenig@...> wrote:
                    I don't think that creation involves God somehow converting some of his own substance (energy or anything else) into matter.  I think it involves an exercise of his might to speak into existence that which had no existence before -- creation from nothing by an all-powerful being.
                     
                    I've never heard any orthodox Christian claim that creation was from something (via transforming God's "energy" into matter).


                    From: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Leonard
                    Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 7:35 PM
                    To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] but but but, pantheism

                    Hi Dave,
                     
                    I am not sure of your point. God's "energy" exists. It is different than say His Power as it is spoken of in regards to the Holy Spirit. That energy can be converted to matter, and I am sure he knows how to do it, if we do. He just has the power/energy and the Power/HS to do it as he wishes.
                     
                    ESV
                    Isaiah 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.
                     
                    (Jeremiah 32:17) "Alas, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah! Here you yourself have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm. The whole matter is not too wonderful for you yourself.
                     
                    When I speak of His "power" I am not speaking of physical forms at all. I am pointing out that His "power", even if "other", can be converted to matter, as he wishes.

                    Dave Wave <empiricism101@...> wrote:
                    --- Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:

                    > Uh Dave,
                    >   
                    >   How was Seth different than Adam? Note he was by several standards.
                    >   
                    >   The idea of God using his energy to make matter, does not require that all matter thus made be
                    > either conscious or "God'. It just IS. Man can take matter and create energy and theoretically
                    > take energy and make matter. Is that matter the same as the one making it?
                    >   
                    >   The matter is NOT energy. In theory you could burn a bit of your hair, but the energy given
                    > off is not you.If you released the energy stored in one hair you would level a good part of the
                    > countryside. But that energy is not you. If you took the energy and made matter from it, the new
                    > matter would not be you.

                    yes, but isn't god "altogether other"?

                    I mean, when you talk about god's energy, you aren't talking about physical forms, right?

                    and yet you use analogies to physical energy/matter, when almost everybody agrees that god's own
                    power is "altogether other".


                         
                               
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