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654RE: [biblicalapologetics] The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved

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  • Chris Criminger
    Nov 2, 2004
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      Jeff said,
      Do you think Paul meant to say "I do not all a woman to exercise authority over a man" (by usurping the role of an elder).  But then why did Paul actually say "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."  Seems to me like he was concerned with teaching, not only with women trying to "grab" the poisition of Elders.  The problems are related, since both involve an inversion of the created order (which Paul appeals to -- that Adam was created first, then Eve).  Also, Paul's argument about Eve's having been deceived seems particularly pertinent to teaching, more so than to usurpation. 
      RE:  Hi Jeff,
      I agree that teaching and Elders are related (take out our un-inspired chapter divisions and connect chapter two with chapter three).  Elders were the teaching elders in the early church.  Although I personally would not have a problem with a book being written by a woman (anyone read any Beth Moore's books or Anne Graham Lotz lately?).  Anne is also a better preacher than a lot of men preachers that I have heard; I also want to add that I don't think 1 Tim.2 is speaking about husband and wife relationship within the context.  The context of the pastoral epistles is false teaching in the church and Paul addresses the men problem in v. 8 and the women problem in the following verses.
      Shalom  -  Chris C.
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Chris Criminger [mailto:chris_criminger@...]
      Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 6:30 AM
      To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [biblicalapologetics] The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved

      Jeff said,
      I would have a problem with any NT book being written by a woman.  Paul taught that he did not allow a woman to exercise authority or teach in church, because the woman was created after the man, and she is the one that was deceived.  How much more would the same principles apply to teaching that applies to the entire Church, rather than a local congregation.  If there was a book purporting to be written by a woman disciple and to be authoritative as Scripture, the fact that it was written by a woman along would be grounds for rejecting it, regardless of its content.
      RE:  Hi  Jeff,
      Whether it's preaching or teaching, all of it is under the authority of God, God's Word, the elders or leaders of a church, and even the congregation.  In other words, it's all *delegated authority*!  I wouild rather have a woman teacher who taught The Word properly than a man who did not.  I find it strange logic that women are often entrusted to teaching the Word of God to children which has more influence of mollding and shaping people's attitudes, beliefs, and behavioir than anything they do as an adult but they can't teach a boy who just turned 18 (or fit in your own magic number) because now he is a "man?"  Unfortunately, some of our theology really *sounds* like in the end, the disciples whom Jesus loved most are men! (I mean, all twelve disciples were *male* or so the argument goes). The situation in the Ephesian Church in First Timothy was one of power plays by women trying to grab the positions of Elders who did the teaching in the church.  The issue is not that woman can not teach or even teach men but that they were trying to grab leadership positions in the church.
      Shalom  -  Chris C.
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Chris Criminger [mailto:chris_criminger@...]
      Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 10:44 AM
      To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [biblicalapologetics] The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved

      Han J. Lee said,
      Dan Brown, along w/ many other liberal scholars claim that the
      disciple whom Jesus loved, mentioned several times in the Gospel of
      John, was Mary Magdalene, and that she also wrote the fourth Gospel.

      While I do not personally hold to this view, after reading a few
      arguments for it, I wanted to raise a few questions --

      If the author of the fourth Gospel, and also the disciple whom Jesus
      loved was indeed Mary Magdalene, would it pose a serious problem to
      any of the essential Christian doctrines?
      RE:  Hi Han,
      Good question . . . My initial response is "no" :-)  I for one don't know what difference it would make if one of the N.T. documents even like Hebrews was written by a woman, what difference that would make in the end?????
      Han said,
      The liberal scholars argue that the only reason the church attributed
      the fourth Gospel to the authorship of John of Zebedee was that it
      was Irenaeus' childhood recollection of what Polycarp of Smyrna, a
      disciple of John, taught him.  Is this true? or are there more
      reasons to believe, other than exegeting from the scripture itself,
      that led us to believe that John of Zebedee was the author of the
      fourth Gospel?

      RE:  I find it interesting that a strong reason for authorship is simply reversed into doubting Polycarp testimony (or Iranaeus's memory) who Polycarp was probably a disciple of one or several of the early apostles.  I think history needs to be examined critically but I find these kind of arguments to be quite nonsensical without more corroborating evidence.  From the early church Fathers, it certainly was not the case that Iranaeus was the only one who spoke about Johannine authorship.  So does other contemporaries in the second century like Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian!  There are also later references to earlier references such as Papias about John as the fourth Gospel writer in Eusebius.

      Well, that's a start  -  Chris C.

      PS  -  For further study on Johannine authorship, I recommend
      D. A. Carson's "The Gospel According to John" as a good starting place.


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