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2402Re: Ayn Rand on Original Sin

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  • r.hero
    Jul 4, 2009
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      Hello Robert

      Original Sin refers to the first sin committed by Adam and Eve resulting in a cursed earth Gen.3:17. Note: The curse will be lifted at the coming again of Christ Rev.22:3.

      Adamic Nature is supposedly an inherited corrupt nature all are born with due to the fall.This is what Ayn Rand denounced, not Original Sin.

      Robert:
      Do you mean to deny that human beings after Adam's sin are any more prone or
      predisposed to sin than they would have been otherwise? Are you denying that the
      Fall affected human beings' moral and spiritual condition?


      Reply

      on Roman 6:6
      The old man is none other than Satan himself, the prince of the power of the
      air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience ( Eph.
      2:2,4:22-24,Col.3:9,Jn.8:44, 1Jn3:8 5:18). To call this our old nature is
      erroneous, for nothing happened to Adam other than his submission to Satan and a
      moral fall. Adam had the same body, soul, and spirit after the fall as before.
      The only difference was a change of masters. There is no such thing as an old
      nature other than man's own body, soul, and spirit dominated by satanic powers,
      as in the above passages."

      So if the only difference was a change in masters for Adam why would it be any different for all humans?


      Robert:
      There is no biblical
      precedent for the notion that Satan was crucified with Christ (Rom. 6:6)! Notice
      that Paul speaks of "OUR old man," that is, the human being that we were before
      Christ changed us. "The old man" is synonymous with our old way of life,


      Reply
      Rom.6:

      6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

      It says our old self not our old man. Here Satan is refered to as sin and we being slaves to sin for who ever follows this master – Satan


















      --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Robert M. Bowman, Jr." <faithhasitsreasons@...> wrote:
      >
      > Richard,
      >
      > You wrote:
      >
      > << Actually, the doctrine referred to here is called the Adamic Nature not Original Sin. >>
      >
      > These are actually two ways of referring to overlapping concepts. The term _original sin_ can refer literally to the first sin, committed by our first parents Adam and Eve, or it can refer to the effects of that first sin in terms of the corruption of our nature, including a predisposition to sin. The term _Adamic nature_ more or less means the same thing as _original sin_ in its second sense; Adamic nature is human nature corrupted by the Fall.
      >
      > You described the traditional view of "Adamic nature" as follows:
      >
      > << The Adamic nature of man is speaking about his fallen nature (Greek sarx). Romans 7 contains the struggle between our fallen nature and our conscience. Galatians 5 tells us that we should walk in the Spirit and we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh. It is called the Adamic nature because we inherit it from Adan. All men are born with a fallen nature, a native depravity. We see that nature in small kids who demand their own way. Children are inclined to selfishness, and that selfish tendency is the old Adamiv nature... the flesh. >>
      >
      > You then commented:
      >
      > << This doctrine is widely accepted in Christendom but I, too, believe that it is a false doctrine. >>
      >
      > Do you mean to deny that human beings after Adam's sin are any more prone or predisposed to sin than they would have been otherwise? Are you denying that the Fall affected human beings' moral and spiritual condition?
      >
      > You wrote:
      >
      > << Regarding the old nature of man, I have read Dakes notes on this subject and I must say they make more sense. In Romans 7 he does not change the plainly written word of God to mean a struggle with our fallen nature and our conscience, therefore, seems more likely to be the true meaning.
      >
      > Dake writes on Roman 6:6 "The old man is none other than Satan himself, the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience (Eph. 2:2, 4:22-24, Col.3:9, Jn.8:44, 1Jn3:8 5:18). >>
      >
      > Dake's claim that "the old man" is Satan has no basis in Paul's usage (Paul is the only biblical writer who uses this expression). There is no biblical precedent for the notion that Satan was crucified with Christ (Rom. 6:6)! Notice that Paul speaks of "OUR old man," that is, the human being that we were before Christ changed us. "The old man" is synonymous with our old way of life, corrupted by its lusts (Eph. 4:22; Col. 3:9). Paul's teaching that believers are to put away or strip off the old man does not refer to Satan but to their old way of life. These are the only references in the Bible to "the old man." Dake's citation of Ephesians 2:2 is irrelevant because it does not use this expression or anything synonymous in the context. His citations from John are also irrelevant because he doesn't use the expression at all. "The old man" is not a technical theological term but a distinctively Pauline way of referring to our old life, our life apart from the grace of God in Jesus Christ.
      >
      > You quoted Dake as follows:
      >
      > << To call this our old nature is erroneous, for nothing happened to Adam other than his submission to Satan and a moral fall. Adam had the same body, soul, and spirit after the fall as before. The only difference was a change of masters. There is no such thing as an old nature other than man's own body, soul, and spirit dominated by satanic powers, as in the above passages." >>
      >
      > While "the old man" is not a technical theological term for "our old nature," it is not correct to say that nothing changes except for a change of masters. Believers do not merely change allegiance from Satan to Christ; they are regenerated, indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and made alive spiritually. These are basic aspects of salvation. The body doesn't change (how I know it!), but the person does change in some way spiritually.
      >
      > You wrote:
      >
      > << So it would seem that the small kids mentioned above just need to change masters, not that they can't help themselves because they have a fallen nature. To me, this makes more sense than to believe that God created Adam faulty—with a fallen nature. >>
      >
      > I'm afraid you have a faulty understanding of the doctrine of original sin or the Adamic nature. The orthodox doctrine does not claim that God created Adam faulty. Adam was created good and innocent, but Adam misused his capacity for choice and became fallen, sinful, and corrupt.
      >
      > In Christ's service,
      > Rob Bowman
      >
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