1769Re: [biblicalapologetics] Jews for Jesus
- Sep 16, 2007---- "Robert M. Bowman wrote:
> Mr. Tillman,I did not say 'none of them are Jews'. I said those who WERE Jews came to Christianity without knowing what it means to BE a Jew, and the rest want to appear to be Jewish for reasons of their own, such as ego inflation or to swell the ranks of "Jews" in J4J in order to lure in more Jews.
> You wrote:
> << Many of the leaders of "Jews For Jesus" are not Jews, they're Baptists. >>
> No, they're both (Jews and evangelical Christians,...)<
Now, committing some very serious sins, such as converting to Christianity (whether by baptism or profession of faith), or marrying outside the faith, means one has effectively divorced himself from the Jewish PEOPLE; their families may even (and are supposed to) treat them as having died; the new Christians are mourned and won't be corresponded with if they should write or call. They also can't be buried in a Jewish cemetary. That's the measure of how far from Judaism they've gone. They're apostates. Until they repent and make t'shuvah (lit: 'return'), that is.
> However, they are ethnically and culturally Jews, and they still honor the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as the only true God.<No, they no longer honor the God of Israel, because they have decided to violate some of the most central Laws God gave the Jews. According to Deut 5:10, those who love God keep His commandments.
> It's true that some of the members of Jews for Jesus were not especially devout in Judaism before their conversion to faith in Jesus as Messiah. But that's true of a lot of Jews today--and I doubt you would claim that they are not Jews, either.<There are Jews who do not keep God's commandments, (except those which would cause them to be shunned by observant Jews), and those non-observant Jews remain Jews, but are not GOOD Jews. But they can become observant and be welcomed back with open arms. These newly observant Jews are called 'ba'alei t'shuvah', or masters of return.
See the entry for Ba'al Teshuvah ("Returnee"): http://www.inner.org/glossary/gloss_b.htm
> In any case, your argument is hopelessly _ad hominem_. You are dismissing their views because you claim they are not Jews (even though they are). Well, you're not a Jew, are you? Shall we ignore what you have to say on the subject?<In this case, I don't think an ad hominem is not out of bounds. It serves the purposes of Christians to make Judaism seem Christian, or vice versa. Therefore, their arguments must be viewed in this light. Ususlly, ad hominem is used to disregard an argument based solely on questions about the messenger, but in this case, especially as I already know the kind of arguments J4J dishes out, I don't see any point wading thru their site looking for your specific argument which I didn't find by following the link you provided. If you would pull the individual argument(s) out, I would be glad to deal with it/them.
Rev M Tillman
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