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Jesus: Messianic Pretender as Tragic Hero

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  • lmbarrephd@gmail.com
    From: lmbarrephd@gmail.com Date: 12/6/2012 2:04:50 AM To: ReligionandTheology@yahoogroups.com Subject: Jesus: Messianic Pretender as Tragic Hero As far as I
    Message 1 of 25 , Dec 6, 2012
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      Date: 12/6/2012 2:04:50 AM
      Subject: Jesus: Messianic Pretender as Tragic Hero
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      As far as I can tell, my particular reconstruction of the historical Jesus is idiosyncratic. I explain this oddity as arising from the main source I use to profile the historical Jesus. This source is not readily apparent as it is what has previously been labeled as "gMark." "pMark," "proto-Mark," and "Ur-Markus." These terms all refer to the theory that there is an earlier version of Mark that has been editorially expanded and so produced the final form of the gospel.

      I find evidence of its existence based on three considerations. First, I think that there is convincing evidence that an underlying text has been expanded to be found in three texts in particular. In all three cases, the narrative flow seems to be interrupted by some material, after which the narrative appears to be resumed. To illustrate this, I have put the suspected expansion in italics:

      1) The insertion of the story of John the Baptizer's death:

      7 And He summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits ; 8 and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff -no bread, no bag, no money in their belt - 9 but to wear sandals ; and He added, "Do not put on two tunics." 10 And He said to them, "Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town. 11 "Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them." 12 They went out and preached that men should repent. 13 And they were casting out many demons and were anointing with oil many sick people and healing them.

      14 And King Herod heard of it, for His name had become well known ; and people were saying, "John the Baptist has risen from the dead, and that is why these miraculous powers are at work in Him." 15 But others were saying, "He is Elijah." And others were saying, "He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old." 16 But when Herod heard of it, he kept saying, "John, whom I beheaded, has risen !" 17 For Herod himself had sent and had John arrested and bound in prison on account of Herodias, the wife of his brother Philip, because he had married her. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, "It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife." 19 Herodias had a grudge against him and wanted to put him to death and could not do so; 20 for Herod was afraid of John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. And when he heard him, he was very perplexed ; but he used to enjoy listening to him. 21 A strategic day came when Herod on his birthday gave a banquet for his lords and military commanders and the leading men of Galilee ; 22 and when the daughter of Herodias herself came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his dinner guests ; and the king said to the girl, "Ask me for whatever you want and I will give it to you." 23 And he swore to her, "Whatever you ask of me, I will give it to you; up to half of my kingdom." 24 And she went out and said to her mother, "What shall I ask for?" And she said, "The head of John the Baptist." 25 Immediately she came in a hurry to the king and asked, saying, "I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter." 26 And although the king was very sorry, yet because of his oaths and because of his dinner guests, he was unwilling to refuse her. 27 Immediately the king sent an executioner and commanded him to bring back his head. And he went and had him beheaded in the prison, 28 and brought his head on a platter, and gave it to the girl ; and the girl gave it to her mother. 29 When his disciples heard about this, they came and took away his body and laid it in a tomb.

      30 The apostles gathered together with Jesus ; and they reported to Him all that they had done and taught.

      2) Jesus' family comes to get him because he seems unbalanced:

      20 And He came home, and the crowd gathered again, to such an extent that they could not even eat a meal. 21 When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, "He has lost His senses."

      22 The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and "He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons." 23 And He called them to Himself and began speaking to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan ? 24 "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 "If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. 26 "If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished ! 27 "But no one can enter the strong man's house and plunder his property unless he first binds the strong man, and then he will plunder his house. 28 "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter ; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin "- 30 because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."

      31 Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You." 33 Answering them, He said, "Who are My mother and My brothers ?" 34 Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers ! 35 "For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother."

      3) Jesus' assertion about an unknown exorcist:

      33 They came to Capernaum ; and when He was in the house, He began to question them, "What were you discussing on the way ?" 34 But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. 35 Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all." 36 Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, 37 "Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me."

      38 John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40 "For he who is not against us is for us. 41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.

      42 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

      The second line of evidence is to identify those text which contain distinctive Markan motifs. These themes are characterized by the fact that they are so often repeated. The first is the highly repeat use of the adverb, euthus, which means, "immediately." The second is the often repeated idea that people were "amazed" at Jesus. What I present below is the entire gospel, noting those pericopae where either "immediately" or "amazement" is used: Here are the results. Again, the suspected additions are indicated by italics with these two motifs identified by bold:

      1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet : "BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY ; 3 THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.' " 4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem ; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins. 6 John was clothed with camel's hair and wore a leather belt around his waist, and his diet was locusts and wild honey. 7 And he was preaching, and saying, "After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. 8 "I baptized you with water ; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." 

      The Baptism of Jesus

      9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Immediately

      coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him; 11 and a voice came out of the heavens : "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased." 12   Spirit impelled Him to go out into the wilderness. 13 And He was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan ; and He was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to Him.

       

      Jesus Preaches in Galilee

      14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand ; repent and believe in the gospel."

       

      16 As He was going along by the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and Andrew, the brother of Simon, casting a net in the sea ; for they were fishermen. 17 And Jesus said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men." 18 Immediately

      they left their nets and followed Him. 19 Going on a little farther, He saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who were also in the boat mending the nets. 20 Immediately He called them; and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants, and went away to follow Him. 21 They went into Capernaum ; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach. 22 They were amazed at His teaching ; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

       

      23 Just then there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit ; and he cried out, 24 saying, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth ? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are-the Holy One of God !" 25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet, and come out of him!" 26 Throwing him into convulsions, the unclean spirit cried out with a loud voice and came out of him. 27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, "What is this ? A new teaching with authority ! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him." 28 Immediately

      the news about Him spread everywhere into all the surrounding district of Galilee.

       

      Crowds Healed

      29 And immediately

      after they came out of the synagogue, they came into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John. 30 Now Simon's mother-in-law was lying sick with a fever ; and immediately they spoke to Jesus about her. 31 And He came to her and raised her up, taking her by the hand, and the fever left her, and she waited on them.

       

      32 When evening came, after the sun had set, they began bringing to Him all who were ill and those who were demon-possessed. 33 And the whole city had gathered at the door. 34 And He healed many who were ill with various diseases, and cast out many demons ; and He was not permitting the demons to speak, because they knew who He was. 35 In the early morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house, and went away to a secluded place, and was praying there. 36 Simon and his companions searched for Him; 37 they found Him, and said to Him, "Everyone is looking for You." 38 He said to them, "Let us go somewhere else to the towns nearby, so that I may preach there also ; for that is what I came for." 39 And He went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out the demons.

       

      40 And a leper came to Jesus, beseeching Him and falling on his knees before Him, and saying, "If You are willing, You can make me clean." 41 Moved with compassion, Jesus stretched out His hand and touched him, and said to him, "I am willing ; be cleansed." 42 Immediately

      the leprosy left him and he was cleansed. 43 And He sternly warned him and immediately sent him away, 44 and He said to him, "See that you say nothing to anyone ; but go, show yourself to the priest and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, as a testimony to them." 45 But he went out and began to proclaim it freely and to spread the news around, to such an extent that Jesus could no longer publicly enter a city, but stayed out in unpopulated areas ; and they were coming to Him from everywhere.

       

      The Paralytic Healed

      1 When He had come back to Capernaum several days afterward, it was heard that He was at home. 2 And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near the door ; and He was speaking the word to them. 3 And they came, bringing to Him a paralytic, carried by four men. 4 Being unable to get to Him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above Him; and when they had dug an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic was lying. 5 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." 6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 "Why does this man speak that way ? He is blaspheming ; who can forgive sins but God alone ?" 8 Immediately

      Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, "Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts ? 9 "Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven '; or to say, 'Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk '? 10 "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins "-He said to the paralytic, 11 "I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home." 12 And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, "We have never seen anything like this." 13 And He went out again by the seashore ; and all the people were coming to Him, and He was teaching them.

       

      Levi (Matthew) Called

      14 As He passed by, He saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting in the tax booth, and He said to him, "Follow Me!" And he got up and followed Him.

       

      15 And it happened that He was reclining at the table in his house, and many tax collectors and sinners were dining with Jesus and His disciples ; for there were many of them, and they were following Him. 16 When the scribes of the Pharisees saw that He was eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they said to His disciples, "Why is He eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners ?" 17 And hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick ; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

       

       

      18 John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting ; and they came and said to Him, "Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast ?" 19 And Jesus said to them,

       

      "While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bridegroom cannot fast, can they? So long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. 20 "But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.

       

      21 "No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment ; otherwise the patch pulls away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear results. 22 "No one puts new wine into old wineskins ; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins."

       

      Question of the Sabbath

      23 And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, "Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath ?" 25 And He said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry ; 26 how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?" 27 Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 "So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

       

      Jesus Heals on the Sabbath

      1 He entered again into a synagogue ; and a man was there whose hand was withered. 2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him. 3 He said to the man with the withered hand, "Get up and come forward !" 4 And He said to them, "Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill ?" But they kept silent. 5 After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, He said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out and immediately

      began conspiring with the Herodians against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

       

      7 Jesus withdrew to the sea with His disciples ; and a great multitude from Galilee followed ; and also from Judea, 8 and from Jerusalem, and from Idumea, and beyond the Jordan, and the vicinity of Tyre and Sidon, a great number of people heard of all that He was doing and came to Him. 9 And He told His disciples that a boat should stand ready for Him because of the crowd, so that they would not crowd Him; 10 for He had healed many, with the result that all those who had afflictions pressed around Him in order to touch Him. 11 Whenever the unclean spirits saw Him, they would fall down before Him and shout, "You are the Son of God !" 12 And He earnestly warned them not to tell who He was.

       

      The Twelve Are Chosen

      13 And He went up on the mountain and summoned those whom He Himself wanted, and they came to Him. 14 And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He could send them out to preach, 15 and to have authority to cast out the demons. 16 And He appointed the twelve : Simon (to whom He gave the name Peter ), 17 and James, the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James (to them He gave the name Boanerges, which means, "Sons of Thunder "); 18 and Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Zealot ; 19 and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Him.

       

      20 And He came home, and the crowd gathered again, to such an extent that they could not even eat a meal. 21 When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, "He has lost His senses." 22 The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and "He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons." 23 And He called them to Himself and began speaking to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan ? 24 "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 "If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. 26 "If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished ! 27 "But no one can enter the strong man's house and plunder his property unless he first binds the strong man, and then he will plunder his house. 28 "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter ; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin "- 30 because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."

       

      31 Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You." 33 Answering them, He said, "Who are My mother and My brothers ?" 34 Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers ! 35 "For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother."

       

      Parable of the Sower and Soils

      1 He began to teach again by the sea. And such a very large crowd gathered to Him that He got into a boat in the sea and sat down ; and the whole crowd was by the sea on the land. 2 And He was teaching them many things in parables, and was saying to them in His teaching, 3 "Listen to this! Behold, the sower went out to sow ; 4 as he was sowing, some seed fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 "Other seed fell on the rocky ground where it did not have much soil ; and immediately

      it sprang up because it had no depth of soil. 6 "And after the sun had risen, it was scorched ; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7 "Other seed fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. 8 "Other seeds fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold." 9 And He was saying, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." 10 As soon as He was alone, His followers , along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. 11 And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12 so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."

      Explanation

      13 And He said to them, "Do you not understand this parable ? How will you understand all the parables ? 14 "The sower sows the word. 15 "These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown ; and when they hear, immediately

      Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them. 16 "In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy ; 17 and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary ; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away. 18 "And others are the ones on whom seed was sown among the thorns ; these are the ones who have heard the word, 19 but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 "And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil ; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold." 21 And He was saying to them, "A lamp is not brought to be put under a basket, is it, or under a bed ? Is it not brought to be put on the lampstand ? 22 "For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed; nor has anything been secret, but that it would come to light. 23 "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear." 24 And He was saying to them, "Take care what you listen to. By your standard of measure it will be measured to you; and more will be given you besides. 25 "For whoever has, to him more shall be given ; and whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him."

       

      Parable of the Seed

      26 And He was saying, "The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil ; 27 and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts and grows -how, he himself does not know. 28 "The soil produces crops by itself ; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head. 29 "But when the crop permits, he immediately

      puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come."

       

      Parable of the Mustard Seed

      30 And He said, "How shall we picture the kingdom of God, or by what parable shall we present it? 31 "It is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon the soil, though it is smaller than all the seeds that are upon the soil, 32 yet when it is sown, it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants and forms large branches ; so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR can NEST UNDER ITS SHADE." 33 With many such parables He was speaking the word to them, so far as they were able to hear it; 34 and He did not speak to them without a parable ; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.

       

      Jesus Stills the Sea

      35 On that day, when evening came, He said to them, "Let us go over to the other side." 36 Leaving the crowd, they took Him along with them in the boat, just as He was; and other boats were with Him. 37 And there arose a fierce gale of wind, and the waves were breaking over the boat so much that the boat was already filling up. 38 Jesus Himself was in the stern, asleep on the cushion ; and they woke Him and said to Him, "Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing ?" 39 And He got up and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, "Hush, be still." And the wind died down and it became perfectly calm. 40 And He said to them, "Why are you afraid ? Do you still have no faith ?" 41 They became very much afraid and said to one another, "Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?"

       

      Miracles and Healing

      21 When Jesus had crossed over again in the boat to the other side, a large crowd gathered around Him; and so He stayed by the seashore. 22 One of the synagogue officials named Jairus came up, and on seeing Him, fell at His feet 23 and implored Him earnestly, saying, "My little daughter is at the point of death ; please come and lay Your hands on her, so that she will get well and live." 24 And He went off with him; and a large crowd was following Him and pressing in on Him. 25 A woman who had had a hemorrhage for twelve years, 26 and had endured much at the hands of many physicians, and had spent all that she had and was not helped at all, but rather had grown worse - 27 after hearing about Jesus, she came up in the crowd behind Him and touched His cloak. 28 For she thought, "If I just touch His garments, I will get well." 29 Immediately

      the flow of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her affliction. 30 Immediately Jesus, perceiving in Himself that the power proceeding from Him had gone forth, turned around in the crowd. He turned around and said, "Who touched my clothes?" 5:31 His disciples said to him, "You see the crowd pressing against you and you say, ‘Who touched me?’" 5:32 But
      43
      he looked around to see who had done it. 5:33 Then the woman, with fear and trembling, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell down before him and told him the whole truth. 5:34 He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well.44 Go in peace, and be healed of your disease."

       

       

      The Gerasene Demoniac

      1 They came to the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gerasenes. 2 When He got out of the boat, immediately

      a man from the tombs with an unclean spirit met Him, 3 and he had his dwelling among the tombs. And no one was able to bind him anymore, even with a chain ; 4 because he had often been bound with shackles and chains, and the chains had been torn apart by him and the shackles broken in pieces, and no one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Constantly, night and day, he was screaming among the tombs and in the mountains, and gashing himself with stones. 6 Seeing Jesus from a distance, he ran up and bowed down before Him; 7 and shouting with a loud voice, he said, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God ? I implore You by God, do not torment me!" 8 For He had been saying to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit !" 9 And He was asking him, "What is your name ?" And he said to Him, "My name is Legion ; for we are many." 10 And he began to implore Him earnestly not to send them out of the country. 11 Now there was a large herd of swine feeding nearby on the mountain. 12 The demons implored Him, saying, "Send us into the swine so that we may enter them." 13 Jesus gave them permission. And coming out, the unclean spirits entered the swine ; and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea, about two thousand of them; and they were drowned in the sea. 14 Their herdsmen ran away and reported it in the city and in the country. And the people came to see what it was that had happened. 15 They came to Jesus and observed the man who had been demon-possessed sitting down, clothed and in his right mind, the very man who had had the "legion "; and they became frightened. 16 Those who had seen it described to them how it had happened to the demon-possessed man, and all about the swine. 17 And they began to implore Him to leave their region. 18 As He was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed was imploring Him that he might accompany Him. 19 And He did not let him, but He said to him, "Go home to your people and report to them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He had mercy on you." 20 And he went away and began to proclaim in Decapolis what great things Jesus had done for him; and everyone was amazed. and said, "Who touched My garments ?" 31 And His disciples said to Him, "You see the crowd pressing in on You, and You say, 'Who touched Me?' " 32 And He looked around to see the woman who had done this. 33 But the woman fearing and trembling, aware of what had happened to her, came and fell down before Him and told Him the whole truth. 34 And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well ; go in peace and be healed of your affliction." 35 While He was still speaking, they came from the house of the synagogue official, saying, "Your daughter has died ; why trouble the Teacher anymore ?" 36 But Jesus, overhearing what was being spoken, said to the synagogue official, "Do not be afraid any longer, only believe." 37 And He allowed no one to accompany Him, except Peter and James and John the brother of James. 38 They came to the house of the synagogue official ; and He saw a commotion, and people loudly weeping and wailing. 39 And entering in, He said to them, "Why make a commotion and weep ? The child has not died, but is asleep." 40 They began laughing at Him. But putting them all out, He took along the child's father and mother and His own companions , and entered the room where the child was. 41 Taking the child by the hand, He said to her, "Talitha kum !" (which translated means, "Little girl, I say to you, get up!"). 42 Immediately the girl got up and began to walk, for she was twelve years old. And immediately they were completely astounded. 43 And He gave them strict orders that no one should know about this, and He said that something should be given her to eat.

       

      Teaching at Nazareth

      1 Jesus went out from there and came into His hometown ; and His disciples followed Him. 2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue ; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands ? 3 "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon ? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him.

       

       4 Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household." 5 And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6 And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching.

       

      The Twelve Sent Out

      7 And He summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits ; 8 and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff -no bread, no bag, no money in their belt - 9 but to wear sandals ; and He added, "Do not put on two tunics." 10 And He said to them, "Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town. 11 "Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them." 12 They went out and preached that men should repent. 13 And they were casting out many demons and were anointing with oil many sick people and healing them.

       

      John's Fate Recalled

      14 And King Herod heard of it, for His name had become well known ; and people were saying, "John the Baptist has risen from the dead, and that is why these miraculous powers are at work in Him." 15 But others were saying, "He is Elijah." And others were saying, "He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old." 16 But when Herod heard of it, he kept saying, "John, whom I beheaded, has risen !" 17 For Herod himself had sent and had John arrested and bound in prison on account of Herodias, the wife of his brother Philip, because he had married her. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, "It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife." 19 Herodias had a grudge against him and wanted to put him to death and could not do so; 20 for Herod was afraid of John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. And when he heard him, he was very perplexed ; but he used to enjoy listening to him. 21 A strategic day came when Herod on his birthday gave a banquet for his lords and military commanders and the leading men of Galilee ; 22 and when the daughter of Herodias herself came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his dinner guests ; and the king said to the girl, "Ask me for whatever you want and I will give it to you." 23 And he swore to her, "Whatever you ask of me, I will give it to you; up to half of my kingdom." 24 And she went out and said to her mother, "What shall I ask for?" And she said, "The head of John the Baptist." 25 Immediately

      she came in a hurry to the king and asked, saying, "I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter." 26 And although the king was very sorry, yet because of his oaths and because of his dinner guests, he was unwilling to refuse her. 27 Immediately the king sent an executioner and commanded him to bring back his head. And he went and had him beheaded in the prison, 28 and brought his head on a platter, and gave it to the girl ; and the girl gave it to her mother. 29 When his disciples heard about this, they came and took away his body and laid it in a tomb.

       

      30 The apostles gathered together with Jesus ; and they reported to Him all that they had done and taught.

       

       31 And He said to them, "Come away by yourselves to a secluded place and rest a while." (For there were many people coming and going, and they did not even have time to eat.) 32 They went away in the boat to a secluded place by themselves.

       

      Five Thousand Fed

      33 The people saw them going, and many recognized them and ran there together on foot from all the cities, and got there ahead of them. 34 When Jesus went ashore, He saw a large crowd, and He felt compassion for them because they were like sheep without a shepherd ; and He began to teach them many things. 35 When it was already quite late , His disciples came to Him and said, "This place is desolate and it is already quite late ; 36 send them away so that they may go into the surrounding countryside and villages and buy themselves something to eat." 37 But He answered them, "You give them something to eat !" And they said to Him, "Shall we go and spend two hundred denarii on bread and give them something to eat ?" 38 And He said to them, "How many loaves do you have ? Go look !" And when they found out, they said, "Five, and two fish." 39 And He commanded them all to sit down by groups on the green grass. 40 They sat down in groups of hundreds and of fifties. 41 And He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up toward heaven, He blessed the food and broke the loaves and He kept giving them to the disciples to set before them; and He divided up the two fish among them all. 42 They all ate and were satisfied, 43 and they picked up twelve full baskets of the broken pieces, and also of the fish. 44 There were five thousand men who ate the loaves.

       

      Jesus Walks on the Water

      45 Immediately

      Jesus made His disciples get into the boat and go ahead of Him to the other side to Bethsaida, while He Himself was sending the crowd away. 46 After bidding them farewell, He left for the mountain to pray. 47 When it was evening, the boat was in the middle of the sea, and He was alone on the land. 48 Seeing them straining at the oars, for the wind was against them, at about the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea ; and He intended to pass by them. 49 But when they saw Him walking on the sea, they supposed that it was a ghost, and cried out; 50 for they all saw Him and were terrified. But immediately He spoke with them and said to them, "Take courage ; it is I, do not be afraid." 51 Then He got into the boat with them, and the wind stopped ; and they were utterly astonished, 52 for they had not gained any insight from the incident of the loaves, but their heart was hardened.

       

      Healing at Gennesaret

      53 When they had crossed over they came to land at Gennesaret, and moored to the shore. 54 When they got out of the boat, immediately

      the people recognized Him, 55 and ran about that whole country and began to carry here and there on their pallets those who were sick, to the place they heard He was. 56 Wherever He entered villages, or cities, or countryside, they were laying the sick in the market places, and imploring Him that they might just touch the fringe of His cloak ; and as many as touched it were being cured.

       

      Followers of Tradition

      1 The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem, 2 and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed. 3 (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders ; 4 and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.) 5 The Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands ?" 6 And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written : 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. 7 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.' 8 "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." 9 He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 "For Moses said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER '; and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH '; 11 but you say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),' 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother ; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down ; and you do many things such as that."

       

      The Heart of Man

      14 After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, "Listen to Me, all of you, and understand : 15 there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man. 16 ["If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."] 17 When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. 18 And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also ? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated ?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.) 20 And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy , slander, pride and foolishness. 23 "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

       

      The Syrophoenician Woman

      24 Jesus got up and went away from there to the region of Tyre . And when He had entered a house, He wanted no one to know of it; yet He could not escape notice. 25 But after hearing of Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately

      came and fell at His feet. 26 Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 And He was saying to her, "Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." 28 But she answered and said to Him, "Yes, Lord, but even the dogs under the table feed on the children's crumbs." 29 And He said to her, "Because of this answer go ; the demon has gone out of your daughter." 30 And going back to her home, she found the child lying on the bed, the demon having left.

       

      31 Again He went out from the region of Tyre, and came through Sidon to the Sea of Galilee, within the region of Decapolis. 32 They brought to Him one who was deaf and spoke with difficulty, and they implored Him to lay His hand on him. 33 Jesus took him aside from the crowd, by himself, and put His fingers into his ears, and after spitting, He touched his tongue with the saliva; 34 and looking up to heaven with a deep sigh, He said to him, "Ephphatha !" that is, "Be opened !" 35 And his ears were opened, and the impediment of his tongue was removed, and he began speaking plainly. 36 And He gave them orders not to tell anyone ; but the more He ordered them, the more widely they continued to proclaim it. 37 They were utterly astonished, saying, "He has done all things well ; He makes even the deaf to hear and the mute to speak."

       

      Four Thousand Fed

      1 In those days, when there was again a large crowd and they had nothing to eat, Jesus called His disciples and said to them, 2 "I feel compassion for the people because they have remained with Me now three days and have nothing to eat. 3 "If I send them away hungry to their homes, they will faint on the way ; and some of them have come from a great distance." 4 And His disciples answered Him, "Where will anyone be able to find enough bread here in this desolate place to satisfy these people ?" 5 And He was asking them, "How many loaves do you have ?" And they said, "Seven." 6 And He directed the people to sit down on the ground ; and taking the seven loaves, He gave thanks and broke them, and started giving them to His disciples to serve to them, and they served them to the people. 7 They also had a few small fish ; and after He had blessed them, He ordered these to be served as well. 8 And they ate and were satisfied ; and they picked up seven large baskets full of what was left over of the broken pieces. 9 About four thousand were there; and He sent them away.

       

      10 And immediately

      He entered the boat with His disciples and came to the district of Dalmanutha.

       

      11 The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him. 12 Sighing deeply in His spirit, He said, "Why does this generation seek for a sign ? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation." 13 Leaving them, He again embarked and went away to the other side. 14 And they had forgotten to take bread, and did not have more than one loaf in the boat with them. 15 And He was giving orders to them, saying, "Watch out! Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod." 16 They began to discuss with one another the fact that they had no bread. 17 And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread ? Do you not yet see or understand ? Do you have a hardened heart ? 18 "HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE ? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR ? And do you not remember, 19 when I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces you picked up?" They said to Him, "Twelve." 20 "When I broke the seven for the four thousand, how many large baskets full of broken pieces did you pick up?" And they said to Him, "Seven." 21 And He was saying to them, "Do you not yet understand ?"

       

      22 And they came to Bethsaida. And they brought a blind man to Jesus and implored Him to touch him. 23 Taking the blind man by the hand, He brought him out of the village ; and after spitting on his eyes and laying His hands on him, He asked him, "Do you see anything ?" 24 And he looked up and said, "I see men, for I see them like trees, walking around." 25 Then again He laid His hands on his eyes ; and he looked intently and was restored, and began to see everything clearly. 26 And He sent him to his home, saying, "Do not even enter the village."

       

      Peter's Confession of Christ

      27 Jesus went out, along with His disciples, to the villages of Caesarea Philippi ; and on the way He questioned His disciples, saying to them, "Who do people say that I am ?" 28 They told Him, saying, "John the Baptist ; and others say Elijah ; but others, one of the prophets." 29 And He continued by questioning them, "But who do you say that I am ?" Peter answered and said to Him, "You are the Christ." 30 And He warned them to tell no one about Him.

       

       34 And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 35 "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it. 36 "For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul ? 37 "For what will a man give in exchange for his soul ? 38 "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."

       

      The Transfiguration

      1 And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power." 2 Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John, and brought them up on a high mountain by themselves . And He was transfigured before them; 3 and His garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them. 4 Elijah appeared to them along with Moses ; and they were talking with Jesus. 5 Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here ; let us make three tabernacles, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah." 6 For he did not know what to answer ; for they became terrified. 7 Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!" 8 All at once they looked around and saw no one with them anymore, except Jesus alone. 9 As they were coming down from the mountain, He gave them orders not to relate to anyone what they had seen, until the Son of Man rose from the dead. 10 They seized upon that statement, discussing with one another what rising from the dead meant.

       

      11 They asked Him, saying, "Why is it that the scribes say that Elijah must come first ?" 12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things. And yet how is it written of the Son of Man that He will suffer many things and be treated with contempt ? 13 "But I say to you that Elijah has indeed come, and they did to him whatever they wished, just as it is written of him."

       

      All Things Possible

      14 When they came back to the disciples, they saw a large crowd around them, and some scribes arguing with them. 15 Immediately, when the entire crowd saw Him, they were amazed

      and began running up to greet Him. 16 And He asked them, "What are you discussing with them?" 17 And one of the crowd answered Him, "Teacher, I brought You my son, possessed with a spirit which makes him mute ; 18 and whenever it seizes him, it slams him to the ground and he foams at the mouth, and grinds his teeth and stiffens out. I told Your disciples to cast it out, and they could not do it." 19 And He answered them and said, "O unbelieving generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him to Me!" 20 They brought the boy to Him. When he saw Him, immediately the spirit threw him into a convulsion, and falling to the ground, he began rolling around and foaming at the mouth. 21 And He asked his father, "How long has this been happening to him?" And he said, "From childhood. 22 "It has often thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, take pity on us and help us!" 23 And Jesus said to him, " 'If You can ?' All things are possible to him who believes." 24 Immediately the boy's father cried out and said, "I do believe ; help my unbelief." 25 When Jesus saw that a crowd was rapidly gathering, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "You deaf and mute spirit, I command you, come out of him and do not enter him again." 26 After crying out and throwing him into terrible convulsions, it came out; and the boy became so much like a corpse that most of them said, "He is dead !" 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and raised him; and he got up. 28 When He came into the house, His disciples began questioning Him privately , "Why could we not drive it out?" 29 And He said to them, "This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer."

       

      Death and Resurrection Foretold

      30 From there they went out and began to go through Galilee, and He did not want anyone to know about it. 31 For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." 32 But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him.

       

      33 They came to Capernaum ; and when He was in the house, He began to question them, "What were you discussing on the way ?" 34 But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. 35 Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all." 36 Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, 37 "Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me."

       

      Dire Warnings

      [38 John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40 "For he who is not against us is for us. 41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.

      ]

       

      42 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off ; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off ; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire. 50 "Salt is good ; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."

       

      Jesus' Teaching about Divorce

      1 Getting up, He went from there to the region of Judea and beyond the Jordan ; crowds gathered around Him again, and, according to His custom, He once more began to teach them. 2 Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife. 3 And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?" 4 They said, "Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY." 5 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. 7 "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, 8 AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH ; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." 10 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. 11 And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

       

      Jesus Blesses Little Children

      13 And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them. 14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all." 16 And He took them in His arms and began blessing them, laying His hands on them.

       

      The Rich Young Ruler

      17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life ?" 18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good ? No one is good except God alone. 19 "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.' " 20 And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up." 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack : go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven ; and come, follow Me." 22 But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

       

      23 And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, "How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God !" 24 The disciples were amazed

      at His words.

       

      But Jesus answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God ! 25 "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 26 They were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved ?" 27 Looking at them, Jesus said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God ; for all things are possible with God." 28 Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You." 29 Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake, 30 but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions ; and in the age to come, eternal life. 31 "But many who are first will be last, and the last, first."

       

      Jesus' Sufferings Foretold

      32 They were on the road going up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was walking on ahead of them; and they were amazed, and those who followed were fearful. And again He took the twelve aside and began to tell them what was going to happen to Him, 33 saying, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and will hand Him over to the Gentiles. 34 "They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again."

       

      35 James and John, the two sons of Zebedee, came up to Jesus, saying, "Teacher, we want You to do for us whatever we ask of You." 36 And He said to them, "What do you want Me to do for you?" 37 They said to Him, "Grant that we may sit, one on Your right and one on Your left, in Your glory." 38 But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized ?" 39 They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink ; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized. 40 "But to sit on My right or on My left, this is not Mine to give ; but it is for those for whom it has been prepared." 41 Hearing this, the ten began to feel indignant with James and John. 42 Calling them to Himself, Jesus said to them, "You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. 43 "But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant ; 44 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. 45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

       

      Bartimaeus Receives His Sight


      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)

    • Holly
      Lloyd: I cannot agree that the Jesus in Mark is patterned after the Greek tragic heroes. Mark was obviously written after the Romans destroyed the temple, and
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 7, 2012
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        Lloyd:

        I cannot agree that the Jesus in Mark is patterned after the Greek tragic heroes. Mark was obviously written after the Romans destroyed the temple, and it is from this perspective one must view Mark's Jesus. Jesus was the Messiah, whose message was rejected. Such messages were previously rejected by the Hebrews, who would bear the consequences of that rejection. The best example of this is:

        1Sa 8:6 But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD.
        1Sa 8:7 And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king.
        1Sa 8:8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you.
        1Sa 8:9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do."
        end quote

        The author of Mark seems to follow the above pattern of rejection and consequences. Jesus, to Mark, as the Messiah was the ultimate Hebrew or the prime example of an obedient 'son of God' from among the sons of god. He embodied the Messianic expectations of his people, which they again rejected to the point of asking for his demise. Rejecting Jesus meant rejecting Elohim just as rejecting Samuel meant rejecting YHWH. Jesus' cry: "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabacthani" is a reference to Psalm 22. The first part of this psalm is a lament that god has forsaken his people and left them to suffer horribly at the hands of conquerors/occupiers. However, the psalm ends on a note of triumph which implies that suffering is a necessary pre-requisite to victory:

        22:21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save [fn] me from the horns of the wild oxen.
        Psa 22:22 I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I will praise you.
        Psa 22:23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
        Psa 22:24 For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.
        Psa 22:25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly; before those who fear you [fn] will I fulfill my vows.
        Psa 22:26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; they who seek the LORD will praise him--may your hearts live forever!
        Psa 22:27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,
        Psa 22:28 for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations.
        Psa 22:29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him--those who cannot keep themselves alive.
        Psa 22:30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord.
        Psa 22:31 They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn--for he has done it.

        The pattern established in Samuel is that the rejection of the kingship of YHWH and his appointed prophets leads to suffering under an earthly king. However, since that king is also an anointed of YHWH, the suffering will end and the YHWH appointed earthly king (read David and his line) will rule on His behalf; that is if the king obeys the Torah and imposes it upon the Hebrews. Mark takes a similar tack by having Jesus quote the Psalm, which he interprets as the Hebrew rejection of Elohim's anointed, which will result in the Hebrews suffering the consequences,i.e., their temple will burn and the rule of the Goy will be established in their land. However, Mark has every hope that this suffering will end and their rejection will be turned into a victory somewhere down the roads of history. That is why the chapter ends with the tomb empty and Jesus already departed for Galilee. The suffering is a pre-requisite to victory for it seems that the Biblical Hebrews only learn through the adverse consequences of their errant behavior.

        Holly



        This was the crowing moment of gMark's portrayal Jesus
        > as the Tragic Hero. Indeed, gMark's portrayal perfectly conforms to
        > Aristotle's definition of the figure of a Tragic Hero. Here is a summary of
        > the ingredients that go to comprise this archetypical figure:
        > From Wikipedia:
        > .
        > A tragic hero is a protagonist with a tragic flaw, also known as fatal flaw,
        > which eventually leads to his demise. The concept of the tragic hero was
        > created in ancient Greek tragedy and defined by Aristotle. Usually, the
        > realization of fatal flaw results in catharsis or epiphany. The tragic flaw
        > is sometimes referred to as an Achilles' heel after the single fatal flaw of
        > the Greek warrior Achilles.
        > Aristotelian tragic hero:
        > In a complex Aristotelian tragedy, the hero is of noble birth and is more
        > admirable than ordinary men. He cannot, however, be morally perfect because
        > the best plots arise when his downfall is the inevitable consequence of some
        > defect in character (or tragic flaw).The spectacle of a good man dragged to
        > destruction by a single error arouses in the audience both pity and fear,
        > leading to the catharsis, a psychological state through which those emotions
        > are purged; the audience leaves the theater relieved, or even exalted,
        > rather than depressed.
        > Characteristics:
        > An Aristotelian tragic hero must have four characteristics:
        > Nobleness (of a noble birth) or wisdom (by virtue of birth).
        > Hamartia (translated as tragic flaw, somewhat related to hubris, but
        > denoting excess in behavior or mistakes).
        > A reversal of fortune (peripetia) brought about because of the hero's tragic
        > error.
        > The discovery or recognition that the reversal was brought about by the hero
        > s own actions (anagnorisis).
        > Other common traits
        > Some other common traits characteristic of a tragic hero:
        > Hero must suffer more than he deserves.
        > Hero must be doomed from the start, but bear no responsibility for
        > possessing his flaw.
        > Hero must be noble in nature, but imperfect so that the audience can see
        > themselves in him.
        > Hero must have discovered his fate by his own actions, not by things
        > happening to him.
        > Hero must see and understand his doom, as well as the fact that his fate was
        > discovered by his own actions.
        > Hero's story should arouse fear and empathy.
        > Hero must be physically or spiritually wounded by his experiences, often
        > resulting in his death.
        > Ideally, the hero should be a king or leader of men, so that his people
        > experience his fall with him.
        > The hero must be intelligent so he may learn from his mistakes.
        > This nearly perfect portrayal of gMark as Aristotle's Tragic Hero shows that
        > the author was both familiar with it and a skilled "playwright." It has been
        > suggested by someone that it was none other than Seneca, or someone very
        > much like him, who composed what we know as gMark. The question then becomes
        > was the actual events of Jesus' passion molded into Aristotle' tragic hero,
        > or did Jesus live out the actual experience upon which Aristotle developed
        > his character?
        > I will leave this question with the reader.
        > The author has portrayed Jesus as a Messianic Pretender who was the epitome
        > of the Tragic Hero. The author's own assessment is voiced in the Centurion's
        > epiphany. Jesus was certainly "a son of a god." I translate this way because
        > it is intended to express what a Roman point of view. In gMark's estimation,
        > Jesus ended up being tortured by a subscription to Messianic proselytism
        > that finally betrayed him in a most pathetic way. Even so, from a Roman
        > point of view, he was a transcendent being, belonging to that class of
        > person who stand above his fellow men. In this, the author gave Jesus the
        > highest rating that he could.
        > Let me note that a dominant feature of this portrayal is the presence of
        > dramatic irony," or a surprising outcome. The Sanhedrin was right. Jesus was
        > wrong. and Jesus own executioner voices the epiphany.
        > This portrayal I feel compelled to say, offers a more sublime story than
        > Christian gospel. Instead of a divine comedy, it is a searing, most pathetic
        > tragedy. So which is to be commended over the other. I for one prefer the
        > latter.
        > God have mercy on the man,
        > who doubts what he's sure of.
        > Bruce Springstein
        > "Brilliant Disguise"¡¡
        > ¡¡
        > LM Barr¨¦, PhD
        > freewebs.com/lmbarre
        >
      • William Mayor
        Holly,   I note that you consider gMark to be written after the fall of the Jerusalem Temple.  I must differ with you on that assessment.  GMark is clearly
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 7, 2012
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          Holly,
           
          I note that you consider gMark to be written after the fall of the Jerusalem Temple.  I must differ with you on that assessment.  GMark is clearly the earliest of the synoptic gospels, I exclude gJohn as I am not certain when to date that one at present, but Ifind I must date gMark to sometime before 66 CS.  This is due to what I believe is the necessity of gMatthew being dated to 66-67, and gLuke to 68-70 (Acts being 69-70).  I realize that I hold to a minority view here, but I base my views on political understandings not theological.  The theological views, I feel, were minor adjustments to the basic narratives to insure acceptability to a Roman audience.
           
          Bill
        • lmbarrephd@gmail.com
          Holly, You are not understanding a critical point. I am not basing my interpretation on the Gospel of Mark. I am basing it on a literary theory that
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 7, 2012
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            Click Me!
            Holly,
             
            You are not understanding a critical point.  I am not basing my interpretation on the Gospel of Mark.  I am basing it on a literary theory that underlying the gospel is an earlier version which scholars refer to as gMarkor the other terms used to designate this hypothetical, original version of the Gospel.  Thus, gMark predates the final form of Mark.
             
            Mark 13 does not sit well in its present context and seems to belong to Mark rather than gMark.  It resembles the insertion of the story of the Baptizer's death, which I think is almost certainly a secondary expansion.  Of course, I would have to research this question properly.  But my initial impression is the Mark 13 belongs to the second, final form of the gospel and cannot be used to date gMark.
             
            I have to say, Holly, that is does not seem that you grasp what is called in New Testament circles as "Literary Criticism."  In First Testament studies, this method is called, "Source Criticism."  It proceeds from the conclusion that a document is not a unified composition and thus it is not the product of one author.  A later hand has supplemented it with additional material.  That the Gospel of Mark is a composite composition is a fundamental conclusion undergirding my interpretation.  For it is fundamentally a study of gMark, not of Mark.  Most importantly, gMark had no burial or resurrection episodes.  It ended at Mark 15:39 with the centurion's statement that Jesus was indeed a uios theou, "a son of a god."  The notion of a theos aner, a" divine man, was very popular in Greco-Roman culture.  So gMark concludes with this assessment of the man Jesus.  Put in the mouth of the centurion, it contains the author's own answer to the pressing question, who is, or more exactly, what is Jesus?
             
            As to the difficult question of the identity of the author, I have to say that it may very well have been written by the Roman playwright Seneca (4-65 CE) or someone very much like him.
             
             
             
             
            -------Original Message-------
             
            From: Holly
            Date: 12/7/2012 8:25:08 AM
            Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Pretender as Tragic Hero
             
             

            Lloyd:

            I cannot agree that the Jesus in Mark is patterned after the Greek tragic heroes. Mark was obviously written after the Romans destroyed the temple, and it is from this perspective one must view Mark's Jesus. Jesus was the Messiah, whose message was rejected. Such messages were previously rejected by the Hebrews, who would bear the consequences of that rejection. The best example of this is:

            1Sa 8:6 But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD.
            1Sa 8:7 And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king.
            1Sa 8:8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you.
            1Sa 8:9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do."
            end quote

            The author of Mark seems to follow the above pattern of rejection and consequences. Jesus, to Mark, as the Messiah was the ultimate Hebrew or the prime example of an obedient 'son of God' from among the sons of god. He embodied the Messianic expectations of his people, which they again rejected to the point of asking for his demise. Rejecting Jesus meant rejecting Elohim just as rejecting Samuel meant rejecting YHWH. Jesus' cry: "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabacthani" is a reference to Psalm 22. The first part of this psalm is a lament that god has forsaken his people and left them to suffer horribly at the hands of conquerors/occupiers. However, the psalm ends on a note of triumph which implies that suffering is a necessary pre-requisite to victory:

            22:21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save [fn] me from the horns of the wild oxen.
            Psa 22:22 I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I will praise you.
            Psa 22:23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
            Psa 22:24 For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.
            Psa 22:25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly; before those who fear you [fn] will I fulfill my vows.
            Psa 22:26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; they who seek the LORD will praise him--may your hearts live forever!
            Psa 22:27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,
            Psa 22:28 for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations.
            Psa 22:29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him--those who cannot keep themselves alive.
            Psa 22:30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord.
            Psa 22:31 They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn--for he has done it.

            The pattern established in Samuel is that the rejection of the kingship of YHWH and his appointed prophets leads to suffering under an earthly king. However, since that king is also an anointed of YHWH, the suffering will end and the YHWH appointed earthly king (read David and his line) will rule on His behalf; that is if the king obeys the Torah and imposes it upon the Hebrews. Mark takes a similar tack by having Jesus quote the Psalm, which he interprets as the Hebrew rejection of Elohim's anointed, which will result in the Hebrews suffering the consequences,i.e., their temple will burn and the rule of the Goy will be established in their land. However, Mark has every hope that this suffering will end and their rejection will be turned into a victory somewhere down the roads of history. That is why the chapter ends with the tomb empty and Jesus already departed for Galilee. The suffering is a pre-requisite to victory for it seems that the Biblical Hebrews only learn through the adverse consequences of their errant behavior.

            Holly


            This was the crowing moment of gMark's portrayal Jesus

            > as the Tragic Hero. Indeed, gMark's portrayal perfectly conforms to
            > Aristotle's definition of the figure of a Tragic Hero. Here is a summary of
            > the ingredients that go to comprise this archetypical figure:
            > From Wikipedia:
            > .
            > A tragic hero is a protagonist with a tragic flaw, also known as fatal flaw,
            > which eventually leads to his demise. The concept of the tragic hero was
            > created in ancient Greek tragedy and defined by Aristotle. Usually, the
            > realization of fatal flaw results in catharsis or epiphany. The tragic flaw
            > is sometimes referred to as an Achilles' heel after the single fatal flaw of
            > the Greek warrior Achilles.
            > Aristotelian tragic hero:
            > In a complex Aristotelian tragedy, the hero is of noble birth and is more
            > admirable than ordinary men. He cannot, however, be morally perfect because
            > the best plots arise when his downfall is the inevitable consequence of some
            > defect in character (or tragic flaw).The spectacle of a good man dragged to
            > destruction by a single error arouses in the audience both pity and fear,
            > leading to the catharsis, a psychological state through which those emotions
            > are purged; the audience leaves the theater relieved, or even exalted,
            > rather than depressed.
            > Characteristics:
            > An Aristotelian tragic hero must have four characteristics:
            > Nobleness (of a noble birth) or wisdom (by virtue of birth).
            > Hamartia (translated as tragic flaw, somewhat related to hubris, but
            > denoting excess in behavior or mistakes).
            > A reversal of fortune (peripetia) brought about because of the hero's tragic
            > error.
            > The discovery or recognition that the reversal was brought about by the hero
            > s own actions (anagnorisis).
            > Other common traits
            > Some other common traits characteristic of a tragic hero:
            > Hero must suffer more than he deserves.
            > Hero must be doomed from the start, but bear no responsibility for
            > possessing his flaw.
            > Hero must be noble in nature, but imperfect so that the audience can see
            > themselves in him.
            > Hero must have discovered his fate by his own actions, not by things
            > happening to him.
            > Hero must see and understand his doom, as well as the fact that his fate was
            > discovered by his own actions.
            > Hero's story should arouse fear and empathy.
            > Hero must be physically or spiritually wounded by his experiences, often
            > resulting in his death.
            > Ideally, the hero should be a king or leader of men, so that his people
            > experience his fall with him.
            > The hero must be intelligent so he may learn from his mistakes.
            > This nearly perfect portrayal of gMark as Aristotle's Tragic Hero shows that
            > the author was both familiar with it and a skilled "playwright." It has been
            > suggested by someone that it was none other than Seneca, or someone very
            > much like him, who composed what we know as gMark. The question then becomes
            > was the actual events of Jesus' passion molded into Aristotle' tragic hero,
            > or did Jesus live out the actual experience upon which Aristotle developed
            > his character?
            > I will leave this question with the reader.
            > The author has portrayed Jesus as a Messianic Pretender who was the epitome
            > of the Tragic Hero. The author's own assessment is voiced in the Centurion's
            > epiphany. Jesus was certainly "a son of a god." I translate this way because
            > it is intended to express what a Roman point of view. In gMark's estimation,
            > Jesus ended up being tortured by a subscription to Messianic proselytism
            > that finally betrayed him in a most pathetic way. Even so, from a Roman
            > point of view, he was a transcendent being, belonging to that class of
            > person who stand above his fellow men. In this, the author gave Jesus the
            > highest rating that he could.
            > Let me note that a dominant feature of this portrayal is the presence of
            > dramatic irony," or a surprising outcome. The Sanhedrin was right. Jesus was
            > wrong. and Jesus own executioner voices the epiphany.
            > This portrayal I feel compelled to say, offers a more sublime story than
            > Christian gospel. Instead of a divine comedy, it is a searing, most pathetic
            > tragedy. So which is to be commended over the other. I for one prefer the
            > latter.
            > God have mercy on the man,
            > who doubts what he's sure of.
            > Bruce Springstein
            > "Brilliant Disguise"¡¡
            > ¡¡
            > LM Barr¨¦, PhD
            > freewebs.com/lmbarre
            >

             
          • Holly
            Hey Bill: Mark 13:2 indicates that the temple was already destroyed. Holly
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 8, 2012
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              Hey Bill:

              Mark 13:2 indicates that the temple was already destroyed.

              Holly





              --- In biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com, William Mayor <eliadefollower@...> wrote:
              >
              > Holly,
              >  
              > I note that you consider gMark to be written after the fall of the Jerusalem Temple.  I must differ with you on that assessment.  GMark is clearly the earliest of the synoptic gospels, I exclude gJohn as I am not certain when to date that one at present, but Ifind I must date gMark to sometime before 66 CS.  This is due to what I believe is the necessity of gMatthew being dated to 66-67, and gLuke to 68-70 (Acts being 69-70).  I realize that I hold to a minority view here, but I base my views on political understandings not theological.  The theological views, I feel, were minor adjustments to the basic narratives to insure acceptability to a Roman audience.
              >  
              > Bill
              >
            • William Mayor
              Holly,   It might also be noted that the exact wording suggests that the temple was not yet destroyed, for the Western Wall still stands, and it can be argued
              Message 6 of 25 , Dec 8, 2012
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                Holly,
                 
                It might also be noted that the exact wording suggests that the temple was not yet destroyed, for the Western Wall still stands, and it can be argued that this violates the reported prophesy.  It can be used either for a late dating or for an early one.
                 
                Bill
              • lmbarrephd@gmail.com
                Holly, I think that one has to make a decision regarding the viability of the gMark thesis. If one finds it probable, then one has to assign a passage to
                Message 7 of 25 , Dec 8, 2012
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                  Click Me!
                  Holly,
                   
                  I think that one has to make a decision regarding the viability of the gMark thesis.  If one finds it probable, then one has to assign a passage to either Mark or gMark before dating anything.  gMark is pre-destruction of the Temple; Mark seems to be post I think.  To ignore literary critical is logically not optional than say textual critical issues.  Given the gMark hypothesis, one must now argue for the unity of Mark and not simply assume it as you are doing.
                   
                   
                   
                   
                  LM Barré
                   
                  -------Original Message-------
                   
                  From: Holly
                  Date: 12/08/12 06:35:07
                  Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Pretender as Tragic Hero
                   
                   

                  Hey Bill:

                  Mark 13:2 indicates that the temple was already destroyed.

                  Holly

                  --- In biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com, William Mayor <eliadefollower@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Holly,
                  >  
                  > I note that you consider gMark to be written after the fall of the Jerusalem Temple.  I must differ with you on that assessment.  GMark is clearly the earliest of the synoptic gospels, I exclude gJohn as I am not certain when to date that one at present, but Ifind I must date gMark to sometime before 66 CS.  This is due to what I believe is the necessity of gMatthew being dated to 66-67, and gLuke to 68-70 (Acts being 69-70).  I realize that I hold to a minority view here, but I base my views on political understandings not theological.  The theological views, I feel, were minor adjustments to the basic narratives to insure acceptability to a Roman audience.
                  >  
                  > Bill
                  >

                   
                • Holly
                  Bill: I don t think the Hebrews of first century Palestine would regard a retaining wall as a sacred part of the temple. The retaining wall stabilized the area
                  Message 8 of 25 , Dec 9, 2012
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                    Bill:

                    I don't think the Hebrews of first century Palestine would regard a retaining wall as a sacred part of the temple. The retaining wall stabilized the area upon which the temple would be built.

                    Holly

                    --- In biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com, William Mayor <eliadefollower@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Holly,
                    >  
                    > It might also be noted that the exact wording suggests that the temple was not yet destroyed, for the Western Wall still stands, and it can be argued that this violates the reported prophesy.  It can be used either for a late dating or for an early one.
                    >  
                    > Bill
                    >
                  • Holly
                    Hey Lloyd: I do understand your hypothesis regarding Mark. This gospel is generally pitched at a Gentile audience. Nevertheless, the author, however much
                    Message 9 of 25 , Dec 9, 2012
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                      Hey Lloyd:

                      I do understand your hypothesis regarding Mark. This gospel is generally pitched at a Gentile audience. Nevertheless, the author, however much Hellenized, was a Hebrew. He most likely would follow the established Biblical cycle of YHWHs favoring the Hebrews, Hebrews rejecting or rebelling against YHWH's ordinances and/or prophets, Hebrews suffering the consequences of behavior, punished Hebrews becoming contrite, YHWH forgiving and rescuing. That pattern is followed in Mark. In Mark, The Hebrews are suffering the consequences of their leadership's behavior. Without going into too much detail, the conflict between the Sadducees and Pharisees (Hasmoneans and anti Hasmoneans) led to YHWH punishing the Hebrews with the death and/or exile of 10s of 1000s of Hebrews. YHWH further punished the Hebrews with Roman occupation. YHWH sent the prophet/messiah Jesus to rescue the Hebrews by returning them to YHWH's law which would lead to YHWH ending the occupation and YHWH establishing an independent kingdom of Israel. The expected ending did not occur because the death of Jesus started another punishment cycle. However, an Hebrew author would anticipate that the established cycle would recur as it had done before in their history/lore. That is why the empty tomb story is not an expansion. It is a message that the religious authority and the Romans could not kill the Messiah. He was still alive, perhaps through the same miracle as Jarius' daughter being raised from the dead. It is an anticipation that, once the Hebrews re-alligned themselves with YHWH, the anticipated result would happen. The author of Mark believed that Jesus' return to accomplish this feat was imminent (Mark 9:1)And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power." And, Mar 1:15 "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!" The kingdom of god is, of course, is the independent state of Israel.

                      gMark or better still, proto Mark, ended with the empty tomb because the cycle was not yet completed. It was about to take place. At that time, the author of gMark or proto Mark would have penned the appropriate ending of the cycle, which would have been the Hebrew's re-attainment of YHWH's favor and the establishment kingdom of Israel. I think this Biblical cycle is the core story and that Mark was selling this story to the Gentiles, because they needed to be aware of what was coming. Their acceptance of the story would mean less oppositiion to the establishment of the kingdom. This is why it was necessary for the centurion to acknowledge that Jesus was 'the son of god' or the messiah. I also think, based upon this cyclical plot, that expansions to this core would be anything to do with a heavenly kingdom, an idea which would have been introduced after it was apparent that the earthly kingdom of Israel was not going to be re-established.

                      Holly

                      --- In biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com, "lmbarrephd@..." <lmbarrephd@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Holly,
                      >
                      > You are not understanding a critical point. I am not basing my
                      > interpretation on the Gospel of Mark. I am basing it on a literary theory
                      > that underlying the gospel is an earlier version which scholars refer to as
                      > gMarkor the other terms used to designate this hypothetical, original
                      > version of the Gospel. Thus, gMark predates the final form of Mark.
                      >
                      >
                    • lmbarrephd@gmail.com
                      I do understand your hypothesis regarding Mark. This gospel is generally pitched at a Gentile audience. Agreed. Nevertheless, the author, however much
                      Message 10 of 25 , Dec 9, 2012
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                        I do understand your hypothesis regarding Mark. This gospel is generally pitched at a Gentile audience.
                         
                        Agreed.
                         
                         Nevertheless, the author, however much Hellenized, was a Hebrew.
                         
                        I find it difficult to decide whether it was a Hellenized Jew and a Gentile familiar with Judaism.  In the final analysis, his view is fundamentally Gentile, not Jewish.  His is critical of the apocalypticism of both the Jesus and his detractors and assesses Jesus according to a decidedly stoic concept of the major role of fate.
                         
                         He most likely would follow the established Biblical cycle of YHWHs favoring the Hebrews, Hebrews rejecting or rebelling against YHWH's ordinances and/or prophets, Hebrews suffering the consequences of behavior, punished Hebrews becoming contrite, YHWH forgiving and rescuing.
                         
                        I do not think that our author is at all loyal to Judaism.  To the contrary, Jesus released Yahweh from his confinement in the Holy of Holies.  Our author's deity is bigger than that of Judaism.
                         
                         That pattern is followed in Mark. In Mark, The Hebrews are suffering the consequences of their leadership's behavior. Without going into too much detail, the conflict between the Sadducees and Pharisees (Hasmoneans and anti Hasmoneans) led to YHWH punishing the Hebrews with the death and/or exile of 10s of 1000s of Hebrews. YHWH further punished the Hebrews with Roman occupation. YHWH sent the prophet/messiah Jesus to rescue the Hebrews by returning them to YHWH's law which would lead to YHWH ending the occupation and YHWH establishing an independent kingdom of Israel. The expected ending did not occur because the death of Jesus started another punishment cycle. However, an Hebrew author would anticipate that the established cycle would recur as it had done before in their history/lore. That is why the empty tomb story is not an expansion.
                         
                        Holly, you should address my arguments that gMark is a probable conclusion and that it ended at Mark 15:39.
                         
                         It is a message that the religious authority and the Romans could not kill the Messiah. He was still alive, perhaps through the same miracle as Jarius' daughter being raised from the dead. It is an anticipation that, once the Hebrews re-alligned themselves with YHWH, the anticipated result would happen. The author of Mark believed that Jesus' return to accomplish this feat was imminent (Mark 9:1)And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power." And, Mar 1:15 "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!" The kingdom of god is, of course, is the independent state of Israel.
                         
                        We have to discuss the prior issue of the thesis of the likelihood of the existence of gMark.  Otherwise, we are proceeding from different premises. 

                        GMark or better still, proto Mark, ended with the empty tomb because the cycle was not yet completed. It was about to take place. At that time, the author of gMark or proto Mark would have penned the appropriate ending of the cycle, which would have been the Hebrew's re-attainment of YHWH's favor and the establishment kingdom of Israel. I think this Biblical cycle is the core story and that Mark was selling this story to the Gentiles, because they needed to be aware of what was coming. Their acceptance of the story would mean less oppositiion to the establishment of the kingdom. This is why it was necessary for the centurion to acknowledge that Jesus was 'the son of god' or the messiah. I also think, based upon this cyclical plot, that expansions to this core would be anything to do with a heavenly kingdom, an idea which would have been introduced after it was apparent that the earthly kingdom of Israel was not going to be re-established.
                         
                        Again, we  have to discuss the prior conclusion of the scope of gMark, particularly whether or not it included the burial and resurrection episodes.  I have given reasons why I think it did not.  You should meet those arguments.
                         
                        LM
                         
                         
                        -------Original Message-------
                         
                        From: Holly
                        Date: 12/9/2012 9:25:34 AM
                        Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                         
                         

                        Hey Lloyd:

                        I do understand your hypothesis regarding Mark. This gospel is generally pitched at a Gentile audience. Nevertheless, the author, however much Hellenized, was a Hebrew. He most likely would follow the established Biblical cycle of YHWHs favoring the Hebrews, Hebrews rejecting or rebelling against YHWH's ordinances and/or prophets, Hebrews suffering the consequences of behavior, punished Hebrews becoming contrite, YHWH forgiving and rescuing. That pattern is followed in Mark. In Mark, The Hebrews are suffering the consequences of their leadership's behavior. Without going into too much detail, the conflict between the Sadducees and Pharisees (Hasmoneans and anti Hasmoneans) led to YHWH punishing the Hebrews with the death and/or exile of 10s of 1000s of Hebrews. YHWH further punished the Hebrews with Roman occupation. YHWH sent the prophet/messiah Jesus to rescue the Hebrews by returning them to YHWH's law which would lead to YHWH ending the occupation and YHWH establishing an independent kingdom of Israel. The expected ending did not occur because the death of Jesus started another punishment cycle. However, an Hebrew author would anticipate that the established cycle would recur as it had done before in their history/lore. That is why the empty tomb story is not an expansion. It is a message that the religious authority and the Romans could not kill the Messiah. He was still alive, perhaps through the same miracle as Jarius' daughter being raised from the dead. It is an anticipation that, once the Hebrews re-alligned themselves with YHWH, the anticipated result would happen. The author of Mark believed that Jesus' return to accomplish this feat was imminent (Mark 9:1)And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power." And, Mar 1:15 "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!" The kingdom of god is, of course, is the independent state of Israel.

                        gMark or better still, proto Mark, ended with the empty tomb because the cycle was not yet completed. It was about to take place. At that time, the author of gMark or proto Mark would have penned the appropriate ending of the cycle, which would have been the Hebrew's re-attainment of YHWH's favor and the establishment kingdom of Israel. I think this Biblical cycle is the core story and that Mark was selling this story to the Gentiles, because they needed to be aware of what was coming. Their acceptance of the story would mean less oppositiion to the establishment of the kingdom. This is why it was necessary for the centurion to acknowledge that Jesus was 'the son of god' or the messiah. I also think, based upon this cyclical plot, that expansions to this core would be anything to do with a heavenly kingdom, an idea which would have been introduced after it was apparent that the earthly kingdom of Israel was not going to be re-established.

                        Holly

                        --- In biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com, "lmbarrephd@..." <lmbarrephd@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Holly,
                        >
                        > You are not understanding a critical point. I am not basing my
                        > interpretation on the Gospel of Mark. I am basing it on a literary theory
                        > that underlying the gospel is an earlier version which scholars refer to as
                        > gMarkor the other terms used to designate this hypothetical, original
                        > version of the Gospel. Thus, gMark predates the final form of Mark.
                        >
                        >

                         
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                      • Holly
                        Hey Lloyd: Lloyd wrote: I find it difficult to decide whether it was a Hellenized Jew and a Gentile familiar with Judaism. In the final analysis, his view is
                        Message 11 of 25 , Dec 9, 2012
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                          Hey Lloyd:

                          Lloyd wrote:

                          I find it difficult to decide whether it was a Hellenized Jew and a Gentile familiar with Judaism. In the final analysis, his view is fundamentally Gentile, not Jewish. His is critical of the apocalypticism of both the Jesus and his detractors and assesses Jesus according to a decidedly stoic concept of the major role of fate.

                          Holly replies:

                          Mark is most likely a Hebrew for he goes to quite a bit of trouble explaining Jewish terms and traditions that would not be familiar to his Gentile audience(see Mark 7:1–4; 14:12; 15:42). Also, Aramaic words and phrases are explained as talitha/korasion koumi/lego (Mark 5:41), korban/doron (Mark 7:11), abba/pater, (Mark 14:36).

                          Lloyd wrote:

                          I do not think that our author is at all loyal to Judaism. To the contrary, Jesus released Yahweh from his confinement in the Holy of Holies. Our author's deity is bigger than that of Judaism.

                          Holly replies:

                          The author is very loyal to Judaism. Mark's rending of the temple veil does not 'release or free' YHWH. The rending is symbolic of the beginning of YHWH's curses upon the Hebrews (Deut 28) because of their complicity in the attempted murder of his prophet. In other words, his blessings have been withdrawn and his communication with his people has been cut off. (The cohanim communicated with YHWH in the inner sancutm.). Now, the holy of holies is no longer the sanctuary of YHWH. The sanctity of this space has been violated and opened to the unclean. This is the beginning of another punishment cycle.

                          Lloyd wrote:

                          Holly, you should address my arguments that gMark is a probable conclusion and that it ended at Mark 15:39.

                          Holly replies:

                          I thought I did address gMark 15:39. I think this verse is an appeal to the Gentiles to accept Jesus as their ruler upon his return. proto or gMark thought that he was alive and had escaped to Galilee. Where Jesus went from there, proto/gMark had no idea. But he obviously thougt that he would return to establish the kingdom of Israel. I think that the narrative ends at Mark 16:8. proto/gMark left the narrative unfinished, because he expected Jesus to return. At that point, he intended to finish the cycle with Jesus' triumphant establishment of the kingdom of god or Israel. When that didn't happen, the 2nd author changed the narrative from the establishment of an earthly kingdom to the establishment of a spiritual kingdom.

                          Lloyd wrote:

                          We have to discuss the prior issue of the thesis of the likelihood of the existence of gMark. Otherwise, we are proceeding from different premises.

                          Holly replies:

                          My thesis is that gMark is an unfinished narrative, which Mark changed and finished. See my previous post on the cyclical plot.

                          Holly
                        • lmbarrephd@gmail.com
                          Hey Lloyd: Lloyd wrote: I find it difficult to decide whether it was a Hellenized Jew and a Gentile familiar with Judaism. In the final analysis, his view is
                          Message 12 of 25 , Dec 9, 2012
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                            Hey Lloyd:

                            Lloyd wrote:

                            I find it difficult to decide whether it was a Hellenized Jew and a Gentile familiar with Judaism. In the final analysis, his view is fundamentally Gentile, not Jewish. His is critical of the apocalypticism of both the Jesus and his detractors and assesses Jesus according to a decidedly stoic concept of the major role of fate.

                            Holly replies:

                            Mark is most likely a Hebrew for he goes to quite a bit of trouble explaining Jewish terms and traditions that would not be familiar to his Gentile audience(see Mark 7:1–4; 14:12; 15:42). Also, Aramaic words and phrases are explained as talitha/korasion koumi/lego (Mark 5:41), korban/doron (Mark 7:11), abba/pater, (Mark 14:36).

                            Are you speaking from a distinction between Mark and gMark?


                            Lloyd wrote:

                            I do not think that our author is at all loyal to Judaism. To the contrary, Jesus released Yahweh from his confinement in the Holy of Holies. Our author's deity is bigger than that of Judaism.

                            Holly replies:

                            The author is very loyal to Judaism. Mark's rending of the temple veil does not 'release or free' YHWH. The rending is symbolic of the beginning of YHWH's curses upon the Hebrews (Deut 28) because of their complicity in the attempted murder of his prophet. In other words, his blessings have been withdrawn and his communication with his people has been cut off. (The cohanim communicated with YHWH in the inner sancutm.). Now, the holy of Holies is no longer the sanctuary of YHWH. The sanctity of this space has been violated and opened to the unclean. This is the beginning of another punishment cycle.

                            Are you making a distinction between Mark and gMark.  I cannot tell if you are?

                             


                            Lloyd wrote:

                            Holly, you should address my arguments that gMark is a probable conclusion and that it ended at Mark 15:39.

                            Holly replies:

                            I thought I did address gMark 15:39. I think this verse is an appeal to the Gentiles to accept Jesus as their ruler upon his return. Proto or gMark thought that he was alive and had escaped to Galilee. Where Jesus went from there, proto/gMark had no idea. But he obviously thougt that he would return to establish the kingdom of Israel. I think that the narrative ends at Mark 16:8. Proto/gMark left the narrative unfinished, because he expected Jesus to return. At that point, he intended to finish the cycle with Jesus' triumphant establishment of the kingdom of god or Israel. When that didn't happen, the 2nd author changed the narrative from the establishment of an earthly kingdom to the establishment of a spiritual kingdom.

                            Lloyd wrote:

                            We have to discuss the prior issue of the thesis of the likelihood of the existence of gMark. Otherwise, we are proceeding from different premises.

                            Holly replies:

                            My thesis is that gMark is an unfinished narrative, which Mark changed and finished. See my previous post on the cyclical plot.

                            Holly

                             
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                          • lmbarrephd@gmail.com
                            ... From: Holly Date: 12/9/2012 3:44:45 PM To: biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                            Message 13 of 25 , Dec 9, 2012
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                              -------Original Message-------
                               
                              From: Holly
                              Date: 12/9/2012 3:44:45 PM
                              Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                               
                               

                              Hey Lloyd:

                              Lloyd wrote:

                              I find it difficult to decide whether it was a Hellenized Jew and a Gentile familiar with Judaism. In the final analysis, his view is fundamentally Gentile, not Jewish. His is critical of the apocalypticism of both the Jesus and his detractors and assesses Jesus according to a decidedly stoic concept of the major role of fate.

                              Holly replies:

                              Mark is most likely a Hebrew for he goes to quite a bit of trouble explaining Jewish terms and traditions that would not be familiar to his Gentile audience(see Mark 7:1–4; 14:12; 15:42). Also, Aramaic words and phrases are explained as talitha/korasion koumi/lego (Mark 5:41), korban/doron (Mark 7:11), abba/pater, (Mark 14:36).

                              Lloyd wrote:

                              I do not think that our author is at all loyal to Judaism. To the contrary, Jesus released Yahweh from his confinement in the Holy of Holies. Our author's deity is bigger than that of Judaism.

                              Holly replies:

                              The author is very loyal to Judaism. Mark's rending of the temple veil does not 'release or free' YHWH. The rending is symbolic of the beginning of YHWH's curses upon the Hebrews (Deut 28) because of their complicity in the attempted murder of his prophet. In other words, his blessings have been withdrawn and his communication with his people has been cut off. (The cohanim communicated with YHWH in the inner sancutm.). Now, the holy of holies is no longer the sanctuary of YHWH. The sanctity of this space has been violated and opened to the unclean. This is the beginning of another punishment cycle.

                              Where in Mark or gMark are divine curses referenced?

                              Lloyd wrote:

                              Holly, you should address my arguments that gMark is a probable conclusion and that it ended at Mark 15:39.

                              Holly replies:

                              I thought I did address gMark 15:39. I think this verse is an appeal to the Gentiles to accept Jesus as their ruler upon his return. proto or gMark thought that he was alive and had escaped to Galilee. Where Jesus went from there, proto/gMark had no idea. But he obviously thougt that he would return to establish the kingdom of Israel. I think that the narrative ends at Mark 16:8. proto/gMark left the narrative unfinished, because he expected Jesus to return. At that point, he intended to finish the cycle with Jesus' triumphant establishment of the kingdom of god or Israel. When that didn't happen, the 2nd author changed the narrative from the establishment of an earthly kingdom to the ESTablishment of a spiritual kingdom.

                              No, I advanced arguments as to why gMark concludes at 15:39.  You should address those arguments.

                              Lloyd wrote:

                              We have to discuss the prior issue of the thesis of the likelihood of the existence of gMark. Otherwise, we are proceeding from different premises.

                              Holly replies:

                              My thesis is that gMark is an unfinished narrative, which Mark changed and finished. See my previous post on the cyclical plot.

                              But you are uncritically assuming that gMark did not end at 15:39, are you not?  I have described how the cental theme of Jesus' supreme confidence leads to abject despair, "Why have you forsaken me? This abandoment of Jesus on all hope resolves the narrative tension.  This is supported Aristotlean tragedy with the protagonist realizing is fatal flaw at the conclusion of the,, often followed by the protagonist's  death.  Further, in an Aristotlean trajedy, the story ends with an epiphany, which is here voiced in the final line of gMark. 15:39.  The story is over.  All dramatic tension is resolved.  Who's right and how's wrong is made clear by Jesus' death.  Any expectation that the messianic age will be ushered in is over.  The death proves not only that Jesus was wrong, but also that the Sanhedrin, according to their share expectation of a coming Messiah, were right about Jesus.  He was a blasphemer as his death demonstrates.   It does not seem that you have understood my analysis or my arguments but instead go off and state your own interpretation.  You are talking past the interpretative issues. It's as if you either have not read or have not understood what I have said, Holly.

                              Holly

                               
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                            • Holly
                              Hey Lloyd: Lloyd wrote: I do not think that our author is at all loyal to Judaism. To the contrary, Jesus released Yahweh from his confinement in the Holy of
                              Message 14 of 25 , Dec 10, 2012
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                                Hey Lloyd:

                                Lloyd wrote:

                                I do not think that our author is at all loyal to Judaism. To the contrary, Jesus released Yahweh from his confinement in the Holy of Holies. Our author's deity is bigger than that of Judaism.

                                Holly replies:

                                The author is very loyal to Judaism. Mark's rending of the temple veil does not 'release or free' YHWH. The rending is symbolic of the beginning of YHWH's curses upon the Hebrews (Deut 28) because of their complicity in the attempted murder of his prophet. In other words, his blessings have been withdrawn and his communication with his people has been cut off. (The cohanim communicated with YHWH in the inner sancutm.). Now, the holy of holies is no longer the sanctuary of YHWH. The sanctity of this space has been violated and opened to the unclean. This is the beginning of another punishment cycle.

                                Lloyd wrote

                                Where in Mark or gMark are divine curses referenced?

                                Holly replies:

                                Lloyd, gMark was written during the Roman occupation. The occupation was the backdrop for every chapter. gMark naturally assumes that his audience would be familiar with Roman conquest and the hardship it produced on the local citizens. For gMark, Roman occupied Palestine was a fulfillment of Deu 28. He would not need to quote to his Hebrew audience what was so well known. However, here are the references:

                                Deu 28:16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
                                Deu 28:25 The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth.
                                Deu 28:29 At midday you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.
                                Deu 28:33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days.
                                Deu 28:36 The LORD will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your fathers. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone.
                                Deu 28:48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the LORD sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.
                                Deu 28:49 The LORD will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand,
                                Deu 28:50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young.
                                Deu 28:66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life.


                                Romans occupied Palestine and controlled Jerusalem.

                                Deu 28:20 The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.

                                Turmoil surround the Revolt of the Zealots and the Roman Jewish wars.

                                Deu 28:28 The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind.

                                These afflictions are mentioned in Mark.

                                Deu 28:43 The alien who lives among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower.

                                Herod was considered to be an Edomite and thus not only a Roman collaborator but a foreigner as well.
                                etc.

                                Regarding the rending of the temple veil, gMark only mentions that the temple veil was torn. He does not attempt to make the minor earthquake of 33CE as a fulfillment of the Day of the Lord prophecies of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Joel and Amos. However, Matthew & Luke do just that by including such events as the dead walking about, rocks splitting, and the sun darkening. gMark did not view the death of Jesus as the advent of a heavenly kingdom. He saw it as the beginning of a punishment cycle which would end when Jesus returned to establish the kingdom of Israel.

                                I'll address your other objections in another post.

                                Holly
                              • Holly
                                Lloyd: Lloyd wrote No, I advanced arguments as to why gMark concludes at 15:39. You should address those arguments. end quote Holly replies: The story is
                                Message 15 of 25 , Dec 10, 2012
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                                  Lloyd:

                                  Lloyd wrote

                                  No, I advanced arguments as to why gMark concludes at 15:39. You should address those arguments.
                                  end quote

                                  Holly replies:

                                  The story is Semitic and not Greek. The cyclical plot had already been established as the Biblical story line. gMark would have followed the established pattern.

                                  Holly wrote

                                  My thesis is that gMark is an unfinished narrative, which Mark changed and finished. See my previous post on the cyclical plot.

                                  Lloyd replies

                                  But you are uncritically assuming that gMark did not end at 15:39, are you not? I have described how the cental theme of Jesus' supreme confidence leads to abject despair, "Why have you forsaken me? This abandoment of Jesus on all hope resolves the narrative tension. This is supported Aristotlean tragedy with the protagonist realizing is fatal flaw at the conclusion of the,, often followed by the protagonist's death. Further, in an Aristotlean trajedy, the story ends with an epiphany, which is here voiced in the final line of gMark. 15:39. The story is over. All dramatic tension is resolved. Who's right and how's wrong is made clear by Jesus' death. Any expectation that the messianic age will be ushered in is over. The death proves not only that Jesus was wrong, but also that the Sanhedrin, according to their share expectation of a coming Messiah, were right about Jesus. He was a blasphemer as his death demonstrates. It does not seem that you have understood my analysis or my arguments but instead go off and state your own interpretation. You are talking past the interpretative issues. It's as if you either have not read or have not understood what I have said, Holly.

                                  Holly replies:

                                  This is a Semitic narrative. It does not follow a Greek plot line. The story is not over at 15:39. Rather, the punishment cycle has begun. There is no tension release because the narrative was never finished. Jesus did not return during the time expected by gMark. The narrative was supposed to end with the establishment of the kingdom of Israel. Because this was not accomplished during the time of gMark, gMark left his audiene with a cliff hanger; the empty tomb segment. Interpolators, whether Romanized Jews or Gentile converts, inserted verses to change the story to one of a spiritual triumph for Gentiles. gMark included believing Gentiles in his story because he thought they would be ruled by the new kingdom. gMark knew the Roman occupiers well. He obviously thought it would be prudent to include them as willing converts to the new kingdom's order in order to avoid the further turmoil created by the Roman Jewish wars.

                                  gMark is pro Jesus. In no wise does he ever suggest that Jesus was a blasphemer. gMark did not believe that Jesus died. He believed the Romans and the Sanhedrin et al had failed to permanently kill Jesus. For gMark, Jesus was alive and had escaped to Galilee where he had earlier agreed to meet his disciples (Mark 14:28). For gMark, Jesus, like the Macabees, was going to be successful and undo the curse placed upon the Judeans thru the blasphemous acts of the Pharisees and Sadducees (anti Hasmoneans vs pro Hasmoneans) which caused the downfall of the semi independent kingdom of Judea and the occupation of the land by the Romans.

                                  Lloyd, I understand your thesis, but this is a Semitic narrative. Think Semite and not Greek.

                                  Holly
                                • Holly
                                  Lloyd: I should mention that I do agree with you about your John the Baptist insertions/expansions in Mark. If one can equate the death of Jesus to the minor
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Dec 10, 2012
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                                    Lloyd:

                                    I should mention that I do agree with you about your John the Baptist insertions/expansions in Mark. If one can equate the death of Jesus to the minor earthquake of 33CE, then he died before John whose demise took place in 36CE according to Josephus. These insertions were added to make it appear that Jesus was fulfilling Mal 4:5, which would mean the author of these insertions was most likely a Gentile who had adopted the belief that the Messiah was the saviour from sins and the sign of the advent of the kingdom of heaven. The saviour from sins idea was anathema to the Hebrews as it violated the Torah (Deut 24:16). The idea is closer to a Promethean model than it is to a Messianic model.

                                    Holly
                                  • lmbarre@gmail.com
                                    Holly, Why do you not think that the story of John s death is not an insertion? Does it not dramatically interrupt the flow of the narrative as an insertion
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Dec 10, 2012
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                                      Click Me!
                                      Holly,
                                       
                                      Why do you not think that the story of John's death is not an insertion?  Does it not dramatically interrupt the flow of the narrative as an insertion would?  Please argue against my reasoning and advance arguments for the unity of the text.  Otherwise, you miss the point and talk past my arguments. 
                                       
                                      You commit this logical fallacy regularly and seem obvious that you are doing so. So please allow me the presumption to instruct you in critical argumentation. Argue against my thesis of an alleged insertion on some grounds and offer positive arguments for a unified rather than a redacted text.  Otherwise, your comments will be irrelevant. 
                                       
                                      This skill is one the most important one's that is taught and tested in graduate school and very much separates the women from the girls.  Just saying that you disagree means nothing.  You are here implying that you possess some inherent authority that one must just accept because you say so.  This forum is not about simply trading opinions.  So please meet my arguments and also offer you own that are relevant and critically defensible.
                                       
                                       
                                       LM Barré
                                      -------Original Message-------
                                       
                                      From: Holly
                                      Date: 12/10/12 10:14:22
                                      Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                                       
                                       

                                      Lloyd:

                                      I should mention that I do agree with you about your John the Baptist insertions/expansions in Mark. If one can equate the death of Jesus to the minor earthquake of 33CE, then he died before John whose demise took place in 36CE according to Josephus. These insertions were added to make it appear that Jesus was fulfilling Mal 4:5, which would mean the author of these insertions was most likely a Gentile who had adopted the belief that the Messiah was the saviour from sins and the sign of the advent of the kingdom of heaven. The saviour from sins idea was anathema to the Hebrews as it violated the Torah (Deut 24:16). The idea is closer to a Promethean model than it is to a Messianic model.

                                      Holly

                                       
                                    • lmbarre@gmail.com
                                      ... From: Holly Date: 12/10/12 09:47:21 To: biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Dec 10, 2012
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                                        Click Me!
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                        -------Original Message-------
                                         
                                        From: Holly
                                        Date: 12/10/12 09:47:21
                                        Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                                         
                                         

                                        Lloyd:

                                        Lloyd wrote

                                        No, I advanced arguments as to why gMark concludes at 15:39. You should address those arguments.
                                        end quote

                                        Holly replies:

                                        The story is Semitic and not Greek.

                                        It is?

                                        The cyclical plot had already been established as the Biblical story line.

                                        It had?

                                        GMark would have followed the established pattern.

                                        He would have?


                                        Holly wrote

                                        My thesis is that gMark is an unfinished narrative, which Mark changed and finished.

                                        Support your thesis.

                                        See my previous post on the cyclical plot.

                                        See my comments below.  Please address them explicitly.

                                        Lloyd replies

                                        But you are uncritically assuming that gMark did not end at 15:39, are you not? I have described how the cental theme of Jesus' supreme confidence leads to abject despair, "Why have you forsaken me? This abandoment of Jesus on all hope resolves the narrative tension. This is supported Aristotlean tragedy with the protagonist realizing is fatal flaw at the conclusion of the,, often followed by the protagonist's death. Further, in an Aristotlean trajedy, the story ends with an epiphany, which is here voiced in the final line of gMark. 15:39. The story is over. All Dramatic tension is resolved. Who's right and how's wrong is made clear by Jesus' death. Any expectation that the messianic age will be ushered in is over. The death proves not only that Jesus was wrong, but also that the Sanhedrin, according to their share expectation of a coming Messiah, were right about Jesus. He was a blasphemer as his death demonstrates. It does not seem that you have understood my analysis or my arguments but instead go off and state your own interpretation. You are talking past the interpretative issues. It's as if you either have not read or have not understood what I have said, Holly.

                                        Holly replies:

                                        This Is a Semitic narrative. It does not follow a Greek plot line.

                                        It is?  It doesn't?

                                        The story is not over at 15:39.

                                        It's not?

                                        Rather, the punishment cycle has begun.

                                        It has?

                                         There is no tension release because the narrative was never finished.

                                        There isn't?

                                        Jesus did not return during the time expected by gMark

                                        He didn't?

                                        . The narrative was supposed to end with the establishment of the kingdom of Israel.

                                        It was?

                                         Because this was not accomplished during the time of gMark, gMark left his audiene with a cliff hanger; the empty tomb segment

                                        It did?

                                        . Interpolators,

                                        Who are they?

                                         whether Romanized Jews or Gentile converts, inserted verses to change the story to one of a spiritual triumph for Gentiles

                                        Which verses?

                                        . gMark included believing Gentiles in his story because he thought they would be ruled by the new kingdom.

                                        He did?

                                         gMark knew the Roman occupiers well.

                                        Did he?

                                         He obviously thought it would be prudent to include them as willing converts to the new kingdom's order in order to avoid the further turmoil created by the Roman Jewish wars.

                                        He did?

                                        GMark is pro Jesus.

                                        He is?

                                         In no wise does he ever suggest that Jesus was a blasphemer

                                        He didn't?

                                        . gMark did not believe that Jesus died.

                                        He didn't?

                                         He believed the Romans and the Sanhedrin et al had failed to permanently kill Jesus

                                        He did?

                                        . For gMark, Jesus was alive and had escaped to Galilee where he had earlier agreed to meet his disciples (Mark 14:28)

                                        He was?

                                        . Ofr gMark, Jesus, like the Macabees, was going to be successful and undo the curse placed upon the Judeans thru the blasphemous acts of the Pharisees and Sadducees (anti Hasmoneans vs pro Hasmoneans) which caused the downfall of the semi independent kingdom of Judea and the occupation of the land by the Romans.

                                        You don't say.


                                        Lloyd, I understand your thesis, but this is a Semitic narrative

                                        It was?

                                        . Think Semite and not Greek

                                        Why?

                                        Holly

                                         
                                      • lmbarre@gmail.com
                                        ... From: Holly Date: 12/10/12 09:12:09 To: biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot Hey
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Dec 10, 2012
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                                          Click Me!
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                          -------Original Message-------
                                           
                                          From: Holly
                                          Date: 12/10/12 09:12:09
                                          Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                                           
                                           

                                          Hey Lloyd:

                                          Lloyd wrote:

                                          I do not think that our author is at all loyal to Judaism. To the contrary, Jesus released Yahweh from his confinement in the Holy of Holies. Our author's deity is bigger than that of Judaism.

                                          Holly replies:

                                          The author is very loyal to Judaism. Mark's rending of the temple veil does not 'release or free' YHWH. The rending is symbolic of the beginning of YHWH's curses upon the Hebrews (Deut 28) because of their complicity in the attempted murder of his prophet. In other words, his blessings have been withdrawn and his communication with his people has been cut off. (The cohanim communicated with YHWH in the inner sancutm.). Now, the holy of holies is no longer the sanctuary of YHWH. The sanctity of this space has been violated and opened to the unclean. This is the beginning of another punishment cycle.

                                          Lloyd wrote

                                          Where in Mark or gMark are divine curses referenced?

                                          Holly replies:

                                          Lloyd, gMark was written during the Roman occupation. The occupation was the backdrop for every chapter. gMark naturally assumes that his audience would be familiar with Roman conquest and the hardship it produced on the local citizens. For gMark, Roman occupied Palestine was a fulfillment of Deu 28. He would not need to quote to his Hebrew audience what was so well known. However, here are the references:

                                          Deu 28:16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
                                          Deu 28:25 The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth.
                                          Deu 28:29 At midday you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.
                                          Deu 28:33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days.
                                          Deu 28:36 The LORD will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your fathers. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone.
                                          Deu 28:48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the LORD sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.
                                          Deu 28:49 The LORD will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand,
                                          Deu 28:50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young.
                                          Deu 28:66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life.


                                          Romans occupied Palestine and controlled Jerusalem.

                                          Deu 28:20 The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.

                                          Turmoil surround the Revolt of the Zealots and the Roman Jewish wars.

                                          Deu 28:28 The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind.

                                          These afflictions are mentioned in Mark.

                                          Deu 28:43 The alien who lives among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower.

                                          Herod was considered to be an Edomite and thus not only a Roman collaborator but a foreigner as well.
                                          etc.

                                          Regarding the rending of the temple veil, gMark only mentions that the temple veil was torn. He does not attempt to make the minor earthquake of 33CE as a fulfillment of the Day of the Lord prophecies of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Joel and Amos. However, Matthew & Luke do just that by including such events as the dead walking about, rocks splitting, and the sun darkening. gMark did not view the death of Jesus as the advent of a heavenly kingdom. He saw it as the beginning of a punishment cycle which would end when Jesus returned to establish the kingdom of Israel.

                                          I'll address your other objections in another post.

                                          Good.


                                          Holly


                                           
                                        • Holly
                                          Lloyd: I agreed with you that the John the Baptist story is an insertion. You did not read my post. Holly
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Dec 11, 2012
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                                            Lloyd:

                                            I agreed with you that the John the Baptist story is an insertion. You did not read my post.

                                            Holly

                                            --- In biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com, "lmbarre@..." <lmbarre@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Holly,
                                            >
                                            > Why do you not think that the story of John's death is not an insertion?
                                            > Does it not dramatically interrupt the flow of the narrative as an insertion
                                            > would? Please argue against my reasoning and advance arguments for the
                                            > unity of the text. Otherwise, you miss the point and talk past my arguments
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > You commit this logical fallacy regularly and seem obvious that you are
                                            > doing so. So please allow me the presumption to instruct you in critical
                                            > argumentation. Argue against my thesis of an alleged insertion on some
                                            > grounds and offer positive arguments for a unified rather than a redacted
                                            > text. Otherwise, your comments will be irrelevant.
                                            >
                                            > This skill is one the most important one's that is taught and tested in
                                            > graduate school and very much separates the women from the girls. Just
                                            > saying that you disagree means nothing. You are here implying that you
                                            > possess some inherent authority that one must just accept because you say so
                                            > This forum is not about simply trading opinions. So please meet my
                                            > arguments and also offer you own that are relevant and critically defensible
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > LM Barré
                                            > -------Original Message-------
                                            >
                                            > From: Holly
                                            > Date: 12/10/12 10:14:22
                                            > To: biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Lloyd:
                                            >
                                            > I should mention that I do agree with you about your John the Baptist
                                            > insertions/expansions in Mark. If one can equate the death of Jesus to the
                                            > minor earthquake of 33CE, then he died before John whose demise took place
                                            > in 36CE according to Josephus. These insertions were added to make it appear
                                            > that Jesus was fulfilling Mal 4:5, which would mean the author of these
                                            > insertions was most likely a Gentile who had adopted the belief that the
                                            > Messiah was the saviour from sins and the sign of the advent of the kingdom
                                            > of heaven. The saviour from sins idea was anathema to the Hebrews as it
                                            > violated the Torah (Deut 24:16). The idea is closer to a Promethean model
                                            > than it is to a Messianic model.
                                            >
                                            > Holly
                                            >
                                          • Holly
                                            Lloyd: I am underwhelmed by your condescension. As you have nothing further to offer, perhaps we should agree to disagree. Holly
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Dec 11, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Lloyd:

                                              I am underwhelmed by your condescension. As you have nothing further to offer, perhaps we should agree to disagree.

                                              Holly

                                              >
                                              > From: Holly
                                              > Date: 12/10/12 09:47:21
                                              > To: biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Lloyd:
                                              >
                                              > Lloyd wrote
                                              >
                                              > No, I advanced arguments as to why gMark concludes at 15:39. You should
                                              > address those arguments.
                                              > end quote
                                              >
                                              > Holly replies:
                                              >
                                              > The story is Semitic and not Greek.
                                              > It is?
                                              > The cyclical plot had already been established as the Biblical story line.
                                              > It had?
                                              > GMark would have followed the established pattern.
                                              >
                                              > He would have?
                                              >
                                              > Holly wrote
                                              >
                                              > My thesis is that gMark is an unfinished narrative, which Mark changed and
                                              > finished.
                                              > Support your thesis.
                                              > See my previous post on the cyclical plot.
                                              > See my comments below. Please address them explicitly.
                                              >
                                              > Lloyd replies
                                              >
                                              > But you are uncritically assuming that gMark did not end at 15:39, are you
                                              > not? I have described how the cental theme of Jesus' supreme confidence
                                              > leads to abject despair, "Why have you forsaken me? This abandoment of Jesus
                                              > on all hope resolves the narrative tension. This is supported Aristotlean
                                              > tragedy with the protagonist realizing is fatal flaw at the conclusion of
                                              > the,, often followed by the protagonist's death. Further, in an Aristotlean
                                              > trajedy, the story ends with an epiphany, which is here voiced in the final
                                              > line of gMark. 15:39. The story is over. All Dramatic tension is resolved.
                                              > Who's right and how's wrong is made clear by Jesus' death. Any expectation
                                              > that the messianic age will be ushered in is over. The death proves not only
                                              > that Jesus was wrong, but also that the Sanhedrin, according to their share
                                              > expectation of a coming Messiah, were right about Jesus. He was a blasphemer
                                              > as his death demonstrates. It does not seem that you have understood my
                                              > analysis or my arguments but instead go off and state your own
                                              > interpretation. You are talking past the interpretative issues. It's as if
                                              > you either have not read or have not understood what I have said, Holly.
                                              >
                                              > Holly replies:
                                              >
                                              > This Is a Semitic narrative. It does not follow a Greek plot line.
                                              > It is? It doesn't?
                                              > The story is not over at 15:39.
                                              > It's not?
                                              > Rather, the punishment cycle has begun.
                                              > It has?
                                              > There is no tension release because the narrative was never finished.
                                              > There isn't?
                                              > Jesus did not return during the time expected by gMark
                                              > He didn't?
                                              > . The narrative was supposed to end with the establishment of the kingdom of
                                              > Israel.
                                              > It was?
                                              > Because this was not accomplished during the time of gMark, gMark left his
                                              > audiene with a cliff hanger; the empty tomb segment
                                              > It did?
                                              > . Interpolators,
                                              > Who are they?
                                              > whether Romanized Jews or Gentile converts, inserted verses to change the
                                              > story to one of a spiritual triumph for Gentiles
                                              > Which verses?
                                              > . gMark included believing Gentiles in his story because he thought they
                                              > would be ruled by the new kingdom.
                                              > He did?
                                              > gMark knew the Roman occupiers well.
                                              > Did he?
                                              > He obviously thought it would be prudent to include them as willing
                                              > converts to the new kingdom's order in order to avoid the further turmoil
                                              > created by the Roman Jewish wars.
                                              > He did?
                                              >
                                              > GMark is pro Jesus.
                                              > He is?
                                              > In no wise does he ever suggest that Jesus was a blasphemer
                                              > He didn't?
                                              > . gMark did not believe that Jesus died.
                                              > He didn't?
                                              > He believed the Romans and the Sanhedrin et al had failed to permanently
                                              > kill Jesus
                                              > He did?
                                              > . For gMark, Jesus was alive and had escaped to Galilee where he had earlier
                                              > agreed to meet his disciples (Mark 14:28)
                                              > He was?
                                              > . Ofr gMark, Jesus, like the Macabees, was going to be successful and undo
                                              > the curse placed upon the Judeans thru the blasphemous acts of the Pharisees
                                              > and Sadducees (anti Hasmoneans vs pro Hasmoneans) which caused the downfall
                                              > of the semi independent kingdom of Judea and the occupation of the land by
                                              > the Romans.
                                              >
                                              > You don't say.
                                              >
                                              > Lloyd, I understand your thesis, but this is a Semitic narrative
                                              > It was?
                                              > . Think Semite and not Greek
                                              > Why?
                                              >
                                              > Holly
                                              >
                                            • lmbarre@gmail.com
                                              What about the other two passages cited? Lloyd ... From: Holly Date: 12/11/2012 11:50:08 AM To: biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com Subject:
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Dec 11, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Click Me!
                                                What about the other two passages cited?
                                                 
                                                Lloyd 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                 
                                                From: Holly
                                                Date: 12/11/2012 11:50:08 AM
                                                Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                                                 
                                                 

                                                Lloyd:

                                                I agreed with you that the John the Baptist story is an insertion. You did not read my post.

                                                Holly

                                                --- In biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com, "lmbarre@..." <lmbarre@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Holly,
                                                >
                                                > Why do you not think that the story of John's death is not an insertion?
                                                > Does it not dramatically interrupt the flow of the narrative as an insertion
                                                > would? Please argue against my reasoning and advance arguments for the
                                                > unity of the text. Otherwise, you miss the point and talk past my arguments
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > You commit this logical fallacy regularly and seem obvious that you are
                                                > doing so. So please allow me the presumption to instruct you in critical
                                                > argumentation. Argue against my thesis of an alleged insertion on some
                                                > grounds and offer positive arguments for a unified rather than a redacted
                                                > text. Otherwise, your comments will be irrelevant.
                                                >
                                                > This skill is one the most important one's that is taught and tested in
                                                > graduate school and very much separates the women from the girls. Just
                                                > saying that you disagree means nothing. You are here implying that you
                                                > possess some inherent authority that one must just accept because you say so
                                                > This forum is not about simply trading opinions. So please meet my
                                                > arguments and also offer you own that are relevant and critically defensible
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > LM Barré
                                                > -------Original Message-------
                                                >
                                                > From: Holly
                                                > Date: 12/10/12 10:14:22
                                                > To: biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Lloyd:
                                                >
                                                > I should mention that I do agree with you about your John the Baptist
                                                > insertions/expansions in Mark. If one can equate the death of Jesus to the
                                                > minor earthquake of 33CE, then he died before John whose demise took place
                                                > in 36CE according to Josephus. These insertions were added to make it appear
                                                > that Jesus was fulfilling Mal 4:5, which would mean the author of these
                                                > insertions was most likely a Gentile who had adopted the belief that the
                                                > Messiah was the saviour from sins and the sign of the advent of the kingdom
                                                > of heaven. The saviour from sins idea was anathema to the Hebrews as it
                                                > violated the Torah (Deut 24:16). The idea is closer to a Promethean model
                                                > than it is to a Messianic model.
                                                >
                                                > Holly
                                                >

                                                 
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                                              • lmbarre@gmail.com
                                                We are not talking to each other. We are talking past each. Would you agree? Lloyd ... From: Holly Date: 12/11/2012 12:24:15 PM To:
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Dec 11, 2012
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Click Me!
                                                  We are not talking to each other.  We are talking past each.  Would you agree?
                                                   
                                                  Lloyd 
                                                   
                                                   
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                   
                                                  From: Holly
                                                  Date: 12/11/2012 12:24:15 PM
                                                  Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                                                   
                                                   

                                                  Lloyd:

                                                  I am underwhelmed by your condescension. As you have nothing further to offer, perhaps we should agree to disagree.

                                                  Holly

                                                  >
                                                  > From: Holly
                                                  > Date: 12/10/12 09:47:21
                                                  > To: biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Lloyd:
                                                  >
                                                  > Lloyd wrote
                                                  >
                                                  > No, I advanced arguments as to why gMark concludes at 15:39. You should
                                                  > address those arguments.
                                                  > end quote
                                                  >
                                                  > Holly replies:
                                                  >
                                                  > The story is Semitic and not Greek.
                                                  > It is?
                                                  > The cyclical plot had already been established as the Biblical story line.
                                                  > It had?
                                                  > GMark would have followed the established pattern.
                                                  >
                                                  > He would have?
                                                  >
                                                  > Holly wrote
                                                  >
                                                  > My thesis is that gMark is an unfinished narrative, which Mark changed and
                                                  > finished.
                                                  > Support your thesis.
                                                  > See my previous post on the cyclical plot.
                                                  > See my comments below. Please address them explicitly.
                                                  >
                                                  > Lloyd replies
                                                  >
                                                  > But you are uncritically assuming that gMark did not end at 15:39, are you
                                                  > not? I have described how the cental theme of Jesus' supreme confidence
                                                  > leads to abject despair, "Why have you forsaken me? This abandoment of Jesus
                                                  > on all hope resolves the narrative tension. This is supported Aristotlean
                                                  > tragedy with the protagonist realizing is fatal flaw at the conclusion of
                                                  > the,, often followed by the protagonist's death. Further, in an Aristotlean
                                                  > trajedy, the story ends with an epiphany, which is here voiced in the final
                                                  > line of gMark. 15:39. The story is over. All Dramatic tension is resolved.
                                                  > Who's right and how's wrong is made clear by Jesus' death. Any expectation
                                                  > that the messianic age will be ushered in is over. The death proves not only
                                                  > that Jesus was wrong, but also that the Sanhedrin, according to their share
                                                  > expectation of a coming Messiah, were right about Jesus. He was a blasphemer
                                                  > as his death demonstrates. It does not seem that you have understood my
                                                  > analysis or my arguments but instead go off and state your own
                                                  > interpretation. You are talking past the interpretative issues. It's as if
                                                  > you either have not read or have not understood what I have said, Holly.
                                                  >
                                                  > Holly replies:
                                                  >
                                                  > This Is a Semitic narrative. It does not follow a Greek plot line.
                                                  > It is? It doesn't?
                                                  > The story is not over at 15:39.
                                                  > It's not?
                                                  > Rather, the punishment cycle has begun.
                                                  > It has?
                                                  > There is no tension release because the narrative was never finished.
                                                  > There isn't?
                                                  > Jesus did not return during the time expected by gMark
                                                  > He didn't?
                                                  > . The narrative was supposed to end with the establishment of the kingdom of
                                                  > Israel.
                                                  > It was?
                                                  > Because this was not accomplished during the time of gMark, gMark left his
                                                  > audiene with a cliff hanger; the empty tomb segment
                                                  > It did?
                                                  > . Interpolators,
                                                  > Who are they?
                                                  > whether Romanized Jews or Gentile converts, inserted verses to change the
                                                  > story to one of a spiritual triumph for Gentiles
                                                  > Which verses?
                                                  > . gMark included believing Gentiles in his story because he thought they
                                                  > would be ruled by the new kingdom.
                                                  > He did?
                                                  > gMark knew the Roman occupiers well.
                                                  > Did he?
                                                  > He obviously thought it would be prudent to include them as willing
                                                  > converts to the new kingdom's order in order to avoid the further turmoil
                                                  > created by the Roman Jewish wars.
                                                  > He did?
                                                  >
                                                  > GMark is pro Jesus.
                                                  > He is?
                                                  > In no wise does he ever suggest that Jesus was a blasphemer
                                                  > He didn't?
                                                  > . gMark did not believe that Jesus died.
                                                  > He didn't?
                                                  > He believed the Romans and the Sanhedrin et al had failed to permanently
                                                  > kill Jesus
                                                  > He did?
                                                  > . For gMark, Jesus was alive and had escaped to Galilee where he had earlier
                                                  > agreed to meet his disciples (Mark 14:28)
                                                  > He was?
                                                  > . Ofr gMark, Jesus, like the Macabees, was going to be successful and undo
                                                  > the curse placed upon the Judeans thru the blasphemous acts of the Pharisees
                                                  > and Sadducees (anti Hasmoneans vs pro Hasmoneans) which caused the downfall
                                                  > of the semi independent kingdom of Judea and the occupation of the land by
                                                  > the Romans.
                                                  >
                                                  > You don't say.
                                                  >
                                                  > Lloyd, I understand your thesis, but this is a Semitic narrative
                                                  > It was?
                                                  > . Think Semite and not Greek
                                                  > Why?
                                                  >
                                                  > Holly
                                                  >

                                                   
                                                  FREE Christmas Animations for your email – by IncrediMail! Click Here!
                                                • Holly
                                                  Lloyd: I agree. You seem to be speaking from a Western academic point of view in which Middle Eastern literature has been filtered thru a Western culture. I
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Dec 12, 2012
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Lloyd:

                                                    I agree. You seem to be speaking from a Western academic point of view in which Middle Eastern literature has been filtered thru a Western culture. I view the same literature from a Middle Eastern/Semitic point of view tempered with a bit of Western inspired objectivity. I don't see much difference between the current Middle Eastern natives, their history and their culture and the one presented in the Biblical texts. Immersing oneself in that culture, acquiring fluency in the language, and living their life helps tremendously in understanding their literature. If one wishes to understand what a text really meant to the people who produced it, one must temper Western academic objectivity with a good dose of native empathy. Of course, to acquire a true understanding, it always helps to be a native. If that is impossible, a good alternative would be 'to go native' for a decade or so until one hears, understands, sees and speaks as they do. Meanwhile, your proposal that gMark was a Greek causes my empathetic soul to assume a defensive mode ready to do battle. gMARK A GREEK!!!!! La hawla wa la quwa ila bilah!!!!

                                                    Holly

                                                    --- In biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com, "lmbarre@..." <lmbarre@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > We are not talking to each other. We are talking past each. Would you
                                                    > agree?
                                                    >
                                                    > Lloyd
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > -------Original Message-------
                                                    >
                                                    > From: Holly
                                                    > Date: 12/11/2012 12:24:15 PM
                                                    > To: biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Lloyd:
                                                    >
                                                    > I am underwhelmed by your condescension. As you have nothing further to
                                                    > offer, perhaps we should agree to disagree.
                                                    >
                                                    > Holly
                                                    >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > From: Holly
                                                    > > Date: 12/10/12 09:47:21
                                                    > > To: biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Lloyd:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Lloyd wrote
                                                    > >
                                                    > > No, I advanced arguments as to why gMark concludes at 15:39. You should
                                                    > > address those arguments.
                                                    > > end quote
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Holly replies:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The story is Semitic and not Greek.
                                                    > > It is?
                                                    > > The cyclical plot had already been established as the Biblical story line.
                                                    >
                                                    > > It had?
                                                    > > GMark would have followed the established pattern.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > He would have?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Holly wrote
                                                    > >
                                                    > > My thesis is that gMark is an unfinished narrative, which Mark changed and
                                                    > > finished.
                                                    > > Support your thesis.
                                                    > > See my previous post on the cyclical plot.
                                                    > > See my comments below. Please address them explicitly.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Lloyd replies
                                                    > >
                                                    > > But you are uncritically assuming that gMark did not end at 15:39, are you
                                                    > > not? I have described how the cental theme of Jesus' supreme confidence
                                                    > > leads to abject despair, "Why have you forsaken me? This abandoment of
                                                    > Jesus
                                                    > > on all hope resolves the narrative tension. This is supported Aristotlean
                                                    > > tragedy with the protagonist realizing is fatal flaw at the conclusion of
                                                    > > the,, often followed by the protagonist's death. Further, in an
                                                    > Aristotlean
                                                    > > trajedy, the story ends with an epiphany, which is here voiced in the
                                                    > final
                                                    > > line of gMark. 15:39. The story is over. All Dramatic tension is resolved.
                                                    > > Who's right and how's wrong is made clear by Jesus' death. Any expectation
                                                    > > that the messianic age will be ushered in is over. The death proves not
                                                    > only
                                                    > > that Jesus was wrong, but also that the Sanhedrin, according to their
                                                    > share
                                                    > > expectation of a coming Messiah, were right about Jesus. He was a
                                                    > blasphemer
                                                    > > as his death demonstrates. It does not seem that you have understood my
                                                    > > analysis or my arguments but instead go off and state your own
                                                    > > interpretation. You are talking past the interpretative issues. It's as if
                                                    > > you either have not read or have not understood what I have said, Holly.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Holly replies:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > This Is a Semitic narrative. It does not follow a Greek plot line.
                                                    > > It is? It doesn't?
                                                    > > The story is not over at 15:39.
                                                    > > It's not?
                                                    > > Rather, the punishment cycle has begun.
                                                    > > It has?
                                                    > > There is no tension release because the narrative was never finished.
                                                    > > There isn't?
                                                    > > Jesus did not return during the time expected by gMark
                                                    > > He didn't?
                                                    > > . The narrative was supposed to end with the establishment of the kingdom
                                                    > of
                                                    > > Israel.
                                                    > > It was?
                                                    > > Because this was not accomplished during the time of gMark, gMark left his
                                                    > > audiene with a cliff hanger; the empty tomb segment
                                                    > > It did?
                                                    > > . Interpolators,
                                                    > > Who are they?
                                                    > > whether Romanized Jews or Gentile converts, inserted verses to change the
                                                    > > story to one of a spiritual triumph for Gentiles
                                                    > > Which verses?
                                                    > > . gMark included believing Gentiles in his story because he thought they
                                                    > > would be ruled by the new kingdom.
                                                    > > He did?
                                                    > > gMark knew the Roman occupiers well.
                                                    > > Did he?
                                                    > > He obviously thought it would be prudent to include them as willing
                                                    > > converts to the new kingdom's order in order to avoid the further turmoil
                                                    > > created by the Roman Jewish wars.
                                                    > > He did?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > GMark is pro Jesus.
                                                    > > He is?
                                                    > > In no wise does he ever suggest that Jesus was a blasphemer
                                                    > > He didn't?
                                                    > > . gMark did not believe that Jesus died.
                                                    > > He didn't?
                                                    > > He believed the Romans and the Sanhedrin et al had failed to permanently
                                                    > > kill Jesus
                                                    > > He did?
                                                    > > . For gMark, Jesus was alive and had escaped to Galilee where he had
                                                    > earlier
                                                    > > agreed to meet his disciples (Mark 14:28)
                                                    > > He was?
                                                    > > . Ofr gMark, Jesus, like the Macabees, was going to be successful and undo
                                                    > > the curse placed upon the Judeans thru the blasphemous acts of the
                                                    > Pharisees
                                                    > > and Sadducees (anti Hasmoneans vs pro Hasmoneans) which caused the
                                                    > downfall
                                                    > > of the semi independent kingdom of Judea and the occupation of the land by
                                                    > > the Romans.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > You don't say.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Lloyd, I understand your thesis, but this is a Semitic narrative
                                                    > > It was?
                                                    > > . Think Semite and not Greek
                                                    > > Why?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Holly
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                  • Holly
                                                    Lloyd: OK, I ll bite. Which 2 other passages cited? Holly
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Dec 12, 2012
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Lloyd:

                                                      OK, I'll bite. Which 2 other passages cited?

                                                      Holly

                                                      --- In biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com, "lmbarre@..." <lmbarre@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > What about the other two passages cited?
                                                      >
                                                      > Lloyd
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > -------Original Message-------
                                                      >
                                                      > From: Holly
                                                      > Date: 12/11/2012 11:50:08 AM
                                                      > To: biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Lloyd:
                                                      >
                                                      > I agreed with you that the John the Baptist story is an insertion. You did
                                                      > not read my post.
                                                      >
                                                      > Holly
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com, "lmbarre@" <lmbarre@>
                                                      > wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Holly,
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Why do you not think that the story of John's death is not an insertion?
                                                      > > Does it not dramatically interrupt the flow of the narrative as an
                                                      > insertion
                                                      > > would? Please argue against my reasoning and advance arguments for the
                                                      > > unity of the text. Otherwise, you miss the point and talk past my
                                                      > arguments
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > You commit this logical fallacy regularly and seem obvious that you are
                                                      > > doing so. So please allow me the presumption to instruct you in critical
                                                      > > argumentation. Argue against my thesis of an alleged insertion on some
                                                      > > grounds and offer positive arguments for a unified rather than a redacted
                                                      > > text. Otherwise, your comments will be irrelevant.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > This skill is one the most important one's that is taught and tested in
                                                      > > graduate school and very much separates the women from the girls. Just
                                                      > > saying that you disagree means nothing. You are here implying that you
                                                      > > possess some inherent authority that one must just accept because you say
                                                      > so
                                                      > > This forum is not about simply trading opinions. So please meet my
                                                      > > arguments and also offer you own that are relevant and critically
                                                      > defensible
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > LM Barré
                                                      > > -------Original Message-------
                                                      > >
                                                      > > From: Holly
                                                      > > Date: 12/10/12 10:14:22
                                                      > > To: biblical_scholarship@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > > Subject: [biblical_scholarship] Re: Jesus: Messianic Hero & Cyclical Plot
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Lloyd:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I should mention that I do agree with you about your John the Baptist
                                                      > > insertions/expansions in Mark. If one can equate the death of Jesus to the
                                                      > > minor earthquake of 33CE, then he died before John whose demise took place
                                                      > > in 36CE according to Josephus. These insertions were added to make it
                                                      > appear
                                                      > > that Jesus was fulfilling Mal 4:5, which would mean the author of these
                                                      > > insertions was most likely a Gentile who had adopted the belief that the
                                                      > > Messiah was the saviour from sins and the sign of the advent of the
                                                      > kingdom
                                                      > > of heaven. The saviour from sins idea was anathema to the Hebrews as it
                                                      > > violated the Torah (Deut 24:16). The idea is closer to a Promethean model
                                                      > > than it is to a Messianic model.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Holly
                                                      > >
                                                      >
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