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Cargo Way - lets slow down folks

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  • Alex Lantsberg
    Hi all, I ve spent some time trying to get a better understanding of what happened at the Cargo Way and it appears that there s a lot of emotion and hyperbole
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 7, 2008
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      Hi all,

      I've spent some time trying to get a better understanding of what happened at the Cargo Way and it appears that there's a lot of emotion and hyperbole flying around, none of which does much to either shed light on this issue or bring us any closer to getting the Bay Trail and Blue Greenway improvements that are much needed at our neighborhood's Northern Gateway.  I have little reason to believe that everyone's concerns can be worked out and I hope that this doesn't become any bigger than it needs to be.

      First off, yes.  The planned project on the corner of 3rd & Cargo is the new Carpenters Local 22 Union Hall, which will  house the Union as well as some of the City's workforce development programs.  For those who don't know, the Carpenters Union is a 125 year non-profit organization that is woven into the very fiber of this City, with a long history in BVHP.  Years ago one of the locals used to be down on Newhall but moved after a bunch of reorganization and consolidation.  Local 22 has about 4,000 dues paying members, of which I am one, and has both outgrown its current location at 18th & 3rd Street. It is literally bursting at the seams there and the transition of that neighborhood into a mixed residential & commercial area has made the current hall simply impractical.  Several hundred members live in the 94124 ZIP code.  With Union construction work being one of the most accessible ways for non-college grads to enter the middle class we hope to have a lot of additional membership growth coming from the Bayview. 

      Second, the Union has been working to build the hall at 3rd & Cargo for something like two and half years now and one of the principal reason for that site being selected was its being in an industrial area with plenty of available off-street parking.  Monthly union meeting usually attract about 100 and sometimes upwards of 150 people.  I believe the project will have up to about 70 (I may have misheard that number so I apologize if i'm wrong) on-site spaces which should accomodate the building's daily regular needs.  It is simply impractical to try to build on-site parking that would be used so infrequently especially considering its on the light-rail line 

      Third, the idea of eliminating the India Basin Industrial Park berm is right on from the standpoint of an urbanist.  We live in a dense city and the fact of the matter is that the design of IBSP is straight out of a suburban model that does not work for what 3rd Street has become.  Believe it or not I actually wrote a paper on the development of the IBSP back when I was in grad school. Considering that the site next to the future Carpenters hall is also currently undeveloped it makes perfect sense to bring the buildings to the street and give that block (from Cargo to Burke) some urban character to transition from the heavy industrial uses at the Port.  Personally, I would love to see the entire stretch, not to mention the west side of 3rd, from Cargo to Evans redeveloped to get rid of the berms and put in retail and office/R&D uses instead.

      The last point is that no-one expects to scuttle the Blue Greenway or Cargo Way improvements.  A lot of folks who haven't been as closely part of the process showed up and asked questions.  From what I heard they were pretty civil and probably acted much like what I see at the monthly meeting.  Carpenters like to talk and ask questions, and are generally an irreverent bunch which may have freaked some people out.  There was certainly no intention to be anything other than a bit more engaged and vocal about the Union's interests in building its hall.  

      I may be wrong about this, but I have a very strong feeling that this can easily be resolved in way that gives us all a fantastic Blue Greenway link to Heron's Head Park while meeting the Union's needs.  The staff certainly wants to see that happen as does the Union.  Lets lower the temperature here and see that it does.

      Alex
    • Alex Lantsberg
      Oh, I forgot to mention that Carpenters Locals 22 & 2236 have provided a key bit of institutional support for the India Basin Neighborhood Association s
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 7, 2008
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        Oh, I forgot to mention that Carpenters Locals 22 & 2236 have provided a key bit of institutional support for the India Basin Neighborhood Association's efforts to save the Shipwright's cottage at 900 Innes and promote accountable development in the India Basin Shoreline Planning (Area C) process.  That really cool diorama that some of you have seen is actually owned by Carpenters Local 2236, which is the successor Local to the Shipwrights' Union. I will forward photos tomorrow for those who don't know what the heck I'm talking about.

        On Feb 7, 2008 9:41 PM, Alex Lantsberg <lantsberg@...> wrote:
        Hi all,

        I've spent some time trying to get a better understanding of what happened at the Cargo Way and it appears that there's a lot of emotion and hyperbole flying around, none of which does much to either shed light on this issue or bring us any closer to getting the Bay Trail and Blue Greenway improvements that are much needed at our neighborhood's Northern Gateway.  I have little reason to believe that everyone's concerns can be worked out and I hope that this doesn't become any bigger than it needs to be.

        First off, yes.  The planned project on the corner of 3rd & Cargo is the new Carpenters Local 22 Union Hall, which will  house the Union as well as some of the City's workforce development programs.  For those who don't know, the Carpenters Union is a 125 year non-profit organization that is woven into the very fiber of this City, with a long history in BVHP.  Years ago one of the locals used to be down on Newhall but moved after a bunch of reorganization and consolidation.  Local 22 has about 4,000 dues paying members, of which I am one, and has both outgrown its current location at 18th & 3rd Street. It is literally bursting at the seams there and the transition of that neighborhood into a mixed residential & commercial area has made the current hall simply impractical.  Several hundred members live in the 94124 ZIP code.  With Union construction work being one of the most accessible ways for non-college grads to enter the middle class we hope to have a lot of additional membership growth coming from the Bayview. 

        Second, the Union has been working to build the hall at 3rd & Cargo for something like two and half years now and one of the principal reason for that site being selected was its being in an industrial area with plenty of available off-street parking.  Monthly union meeting usually attract about 100 and sometimes upwards of 150 people.  I believe the project will have up to about 70 (I may have misheard that number so I apologize if i'm wrong) on-site spaces which should accomodate the building's daily regular needs.  It is simply impractical to try to build on-site parking that would be used so infrequently especially considering its on the light-rail line 

        Third, the idea of eliminating the India Basin Industrial Park berm is right on from the standpoint of an urbanist.  We live in a dense city and the fact of the matter is that the design of IBSP is straight out of a suburban model that does not work for what 3rd Street has become.  Believe it or not I actually wrote a paper on the development of the IBSP back when I was in grad school. Considering that the site next to the future Carpenters hall is also currently undeveloped it makes perfect sense to bring the buildings to the street and give that block (from Cargo to Burke) some urban character to transition from the heavy industrial uses at the Port.  Personally, I would love to see the entire stretch, not to mention the west side of 3rd, from Cargo to Evans redeveloped to get rid of the berms and put in retail and office/R&D uses instead.

        The last point is that no-one expects to scuttle the Blue Greenway or Cargo Way improvements.  A lot of folks who haven't been as closely part of the process showed up and asked questions.  From what I heard they were pretty civil and probably acted much like what I see at the monthly meeting.  Carpenters like to talk and ask questions, and are generally an irreverent bunch which may have freaked some people out.  There was certainly no intention to be anything other than a bit more engaged and vocal about the Union's interests in building its hall.  

        I may be wrong about this, but I have a very strong feeling that this can easily be resolved in way that gives us all a fantastic Blue Greenway link to Heron's Head Park while meeting the Union's needs.  The staff certainly wants to see that happen as does the Union.  Lets lower the temperature here and see that it does.

        Alex

      • Alex Lantsberg
        I m resending this with some typo corrections... On Feb 7, 2008 9:41 PM, Alex Lantsberg wrote: Hi all, I ve spent some time trying to get
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 8, 2008
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          I'm resending this with some typo corrections...

          On Feb 7, 2008 9:41 PM, Alex Lantsberg <lantsberg@...> wrote:
          Hi all,

          I've spent some time trying to get a better understanding of what happened at the Cargo Way and it appears that there's a lot of emotion and hyperbole flying around, none of which does much to either shed light on this issue or bring us any closer to getting the Bay Trail and Blue Greenway improvements that are much needed at our neighborhood's Northern Gateway.  I have little reason to believe that everyone's concerns can't be worked out and I hope that this doesn't become any bigger than it needs to be.

          First off, yes.  The planned project on the corner of 3rd & Cargo is the new Carpenters Local 22 Union Hall, which will  house the Union as well as some of the City's workforce development programs.  For those who don't know, the Carpenters Union is a 125 year non-profit organization that is woven into the very fiber of this City, with a long history in BVHP.  Years ago one of the locals used to be down on Newhall but moved after a bunch of reorganization and consolidation.  Local 22 has about 4,000 dues paying members, of which I am one, and has outgrown its current location at 18th & 3rd Street. It is literally bursting at the seams there and the transition of that neighborhood into a mixed residential & commercial area has made the current hall simply impractical.  Several hundred members live in the 94124 ZIP code.  With Union construction work being one of the most accessible ways for non-college grads to enter the middle class we hope to have a lot of additional membership growth coming from the Bayview. 

          Second, the Union has been working to build the hall at 3rd & Cargo for something like two and half years now and one of the principal reason for that site being selected was its being in an industrial area with plenty of available off-street parking.  Monthly union meeting usually attract about 100 and sometimes upwards of 150 people.  I believe the project will have up to about 70 (I may have misheard that number so I apologize if i'm wrong) on-site spaces which should accomodate the building's daily regular needs.  It is simply impractical to try to build on-site parking that would be used so infrequently especially considering its on the light-rail line 

          Third, the idea of eliminating the India Basin Industrial Park berm is right on from the standpoint of an urbanist.  We live in a dense city and the fact of the matter is that the design of IBSP is straight out of a suburban model that does not work for what 3rd Street has become.  Believe it or not I actually wrote a paper on the development of the IBSP back when I was in grad school. Considering that the site next to the future Carpenters hall is also currently undeveloped it makes perfect sense to bring the buildings to the street and give that block (from Cargo to Burke) some urban character to transition from the heavy industrial uses at the Port.  Personally, I would love to see the entire stretch on both the east and west sides of 3rd from Cargo to Evans redeveloped to get rid of the berms and warehouses and put in retail and office/R&D uses instead.

          Fourth, Carpenters Locals 22 & the Jack London Square based 2236 have provided key institutional support for the India Basin Neighborhood Association's efforts to save the Shipwright's cottage at 900 Innes and promote accountable development in the India Basin Shoreline Planning (Area C) process.  That really cool diorama that some of you have seen is actually owned by Carpenters Local 2236, which is the successor Local to the Shipwrights' Union.  I forwarded some pics earlier this morning.

          The last point is that no one expects to scuttle the Blue Greenway or Cargo Way improvements.  A lot of folks who haven't been as closely part of the process showed up and asked questions.  From what I heard they were pretty civil and probably acted much like what I see at the monthly meeting.  Carpenters like to talk and ask questions, and are generally an irreverent bunch which may have freaked some people out.  There was certainly no intention to be anything other than a bit more engaged and vocal about the Union's interests in building its hall.  

          I may be wrong about this, but I have a very strong feeling that this can easily be resolved in way that gives us all a fantastic Blue Greenway link to Heron's Head Park while meeting the Union's needs.  The staff certainly wants to see that happen as does the Union.  Lets lower the temperature here and see that it does.

          Alex

        • Ivan T
          I love reading both sides of a story. I commute past the Carpenter s Union on 3rd and often see the guys/gals standing around chatting. I guess they are
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 8, 2008
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            I love reading both sides of a story.

            I commute past the Carpenter's Union on 3rd and often
            see the guys/gals standing around chatting. I guess
            they are waiting for rides to job sites or something.
            It's heartwarming Americana, but also obvious (from
            the crush of vehicles nearby) parking is problematic.

            Seems to me if City planners requires a certain amount
            of parking just put it in somehow and get on with
            life. But Alex makes a good point. If that site is
            served by Light Rail then isnt the idea to take
            advantage of that when overflow parking is needed,
            especially when it is only occasionally?

            I love Dogpatch but I have seen it go from plenty of
            parking any time to no parking during daylight hours
            and limited evening parking. The idiots who double
            park (an inconsiderate and unsafe act) especially now
            that the train takes up the middle of the street are
            strong evidence that parking has become impossible to
            find quickly.

            We can count on that problem spreading down 3rd St in
            India Basin, as it develops. Traffic will have to be
            accommodated. That probably means parking meters all
            along 3rd, eventually. Maybe even NO curb parking
            during commute hours. Maybe it will force more folks
            onto bicycles or the train.

            It seems like it is in the Carpenter's Unions best
            interest to get their permits approved ASAP and plan
            for heavier traffic in a few years. Maybe they can
            find a way. Since so many of them are our neighbors,
            it will be interesting to see what they can do to put
            their variance requests in a positive light for the
            neighborhood, and without being *too* irreverent about
            it.

            Ivan


            ____________________________________________________________________________________
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          • Alex Lantsberg
            most of the guys standing around and chatting are either at roll call or hanging out at the hall waiting to be dispatched to a job. we may eventually move to a
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 8, 2008
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              most of the guys standing around and chatting are either at roll call or hanging out at the hall waiting to be dispatched to a job. we may eventually move to a phone dispatch system but for now that's how people on our 'out of work' list find jobs to put food on their table.

              like i said in my earlier email, city staff and the carpenters are more than willing to work together to work out a reasonable accommodation that works for all of the interests involved here.  like i said, lets lower the temperature and get this thing done.

              aml

              On Feb 8, 2008 8:23 AM, Ivan T <hulagun66@...> wrote:

              I love reading both sides of a story.

              I commute past the Carpenter's Union on 3rd and often
              see the guys/gals standing around chatting. I guess
              they are waiting for rides to job sites or something.
              It's heartwarming Americana, but also obvious (from
              the crush of vehicles nearby) parking is problematic.

              Seems to me if City planners requires a certain amount
              of parking just put it in somehow and get on with
              life. But Alex makes a good point. If that site is
              served by Light Rail then isnt the idea to take
              advantage of that when overflow parking is needed,
              especially when it is only occasionally?

              I love Dogpatch but I have seen it go from plenty of
              parking any time to no parking during daylight hours
              and limited evening parking. The idiots who double
              park (an inconsiderate and unsafe act) especially now
              that the train takes up the middle of the street are
              strong evidence that parking has become impossible to
              find quickly.

              We can count on that problem spreading down 3rd St in
              India Basin, as it develops. Traffic will have to be
              accommodated. That probably means parking meters all
              along 3rd, eventually. Maybe even NO curb parking
              during commute hours. Maybe it will force more folks
              onto bicycles or the train.

              It seems like it is in the Carpenter's Unions best
              interest to get their permits approved ASAP and plan
              for heavier traffic in a few years. Maybe they can
              find a way. Since so many of them are our neighbors,
              it will be interesting to see what they can do to put
              their variance requests in a positive light for the
              neighborhood, and without being *too* irreverent about
              it.

              Ivan

              __________________________________________________________



            • bayview94124
              I think now is the time, not later when it is too late, to stop builders from making Bayview a complete concrete jungle by removing REQUIRED set backs and
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 8, 2008
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                I think now is the time, not later when it is too late, to stop
                builders from making Bayview a complete concrete jungle by removing
                REQUIRED set backs and picturesque berms at the Gateway to our
                Neighborhood. They are not antiquated suburban remants to be removed.
                They are the saving grace of city with too few trees, too little
                green, and so much concrete the rainwater overflows the sewer system
                dumping raw sewage into the bay. The berms are not only pretty, they
                manage storm water, calm traffic, and mitigate the impact of
                industrial use so close to residences. Why not suggest removing the
                setbacks in St. Francis Woods and tell residents they need to lose
                the suburban look now that San Francisco is going more urban?

                It is not impractical, it is inconvenient for them to build to code.
                Did they not notice the light rail 3 years ago? Please don't tell me
                they bought the wrong lot in Bayview, with so much industrial space
                to choose from. It'd be nice to have an office/commercial building
                there like the one that had been planned for the end of 2002. Even
                the old plans for the residential units there would have worked and
                been built to code.

                I'm sure we will hear more on this topic now that you've forwarded
                the Carpenters' Union some comments posted here in the yahoo group. I
                think that alone will do the opposite of slowing down the discussion.

                I'd like to quote Alex on traffic calming...
                "the issue of parking is a tough one. first, there will never be
                enough parking for cars and more that is built the more that its
                quickly overwhelmed. the cycle is pretty familiar. high parking
                availability begets traffic which begets calls for street widening
                which begets even more auto capacity and ultimately starts the cycle
                anew"

                "we will all have to draw the line somewhere. i'd like to draw it
                much sooner than others. fair enough." (end quote)

                We are forced to defend our jobs to secure our homes and families.
                Let's not do it to the detriment of our neighbors.

                WELCOME CARPENTERS UNION. Unions secure us a living wage, healthcare
                and other benefits. ALL WE ASK is build to code. RESPECT the setback,
                INCLUDE ALL the required off street parking. If Alex is correct in
                saying they plan 70 parking spaces, then that must be below the
                requirement. By how many I don't know, at least 5 I'd guess. So with
                150 members coming to meetings all it would take is for 75 people to
                share a ride with 1 person. All parking is taken care of. Nobody need
                park across third and walk a block or two. We need not lose the set
                back, the sidewalk on the south side of the street, nor any trees.

                Again, Welcome Carpenters Union. Encourage your members living in
                94124 to get involved in community meetings, RAB, PAC, CAC, 3rd
                Street Corridor, Shipyard Arts, the police community monthly meeting.
                With the strength you have in numbers you could single handedly fill
                every meeting to capacity. Think of how much volunteering is
                possible, tree planting, garbage clean up, landscaping medians like
                QGI.

                All the benefits of having the Union Hall in Bayview can be retained.

                --- In betterbayview@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Lantsberg"
                <lantsberg@...> wrote:
                >
                > Oh, I forgot to mention that Carpenters Locals 22 & 2236 have
                provided a key bit of institutional support for the India Basin
                Neighborhood Association's efforts to save the Shipwright's cottage
                at 900 Innes and promote accountable development in the India Basin
                Shoreline Planning (Area C) process. That really cool diorama that
                some of you have seen is actually owned by Carpenters Local 2236,
                which is the successor Local to the Shipwrights' Union. I will
                forward photos tomorrow for those who don't know what the heck I'm
                talking about.
                >
                > On Feb 7, 2008 9:41 PM, Alex Lantsberg <lantsberg@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Hi all,
                > > I've spent some time trying to get a better understanding of what
                happened at the Cargo Way and it appears that there's a lot of
                emotion and hyperbole flying around, none of which does much to
                either shed light on this issue or bring us any closer to getting the
                Bay Trail and Blue Greenway improvements that are much needed at our
                neighborhood's Northern Gateway. I have little reason to believe
                that everyone's concerns can be worked out and I hope that this
                doesn't become any bigger than it needs to be.
                > >
                > > First off, yes. The planned project on the corner of 3rd & Cargo
                is the new Carpenters Local 22 Union Hall, which will house the
                Union as well as some of the City's workforce development programs.
                For those who don't know, the Carpenters Union is a 125 year non-
                profit organization that is woven into the very fiber of this City,
                with a long history in BVHP. Years ago one of the locals used to be
                down on Newhall but moved after a bunch of reorganization and
                consolidation. Local 22 has about 4,000 dues paying members, of
                which I am one, and has both outgrown its current location at 18th &
                3rd Street. It is literally bursting at the seams there and the
                > > transition of that neighborhood into a mixed residential &
                commercial area has made the current hall simply impractical.
                Several hundred members live in the 94124 ZIP code. With Union
                nstruction work being one of the most accessible ways for non-college
                grads to enter the middle class we hope to have a lot of additional
                membership growth coming from the Bayview.
                > >
                > > Second, the Union has been working to build the hall at 3rd &
                Cargo for something like two and half years now and one of the
                principal reason for that site being selected was its being in an
                industrial area with plenty of available off-street parking. Monthly
                union meeting usually attract about 100 and sometimes upwards of 150
                people. I believe the project will have up to about 70 (I may have
                misheard that number so I apologize if i'm wrong) on-site spaces
                which should accomodate the building's daily regular needs.
                > > It is simply impractical to try to build on-site parking that
                would be used so infrequently especially considering its on the light-
                rail line

                Third, the idea of eliminating the India Basin Industrial Park berm
                is right on from the standpoint of an urbanist. We live in a dense
                city and the fact of the matter is that the design of IBSP is
                straight out of a suburban model that does not work for what 3rd
                Street has become. Believe it or not I actually wrote a paper on the
                development of the IBSP back when I was in grad school. Considering
                that the site next to the future Carpenters hall is also currently
                undeveloped it makes perfect sense to bring the buildings to the
                street and give that block (from Cargo to Burke) some urban character
                to transition from the heavy industrial uses at the Port.
                Personally, I would love to see the entire stretch, not to mention
                > > the west side of 3rd, from Cargo to Evans redeveloped to get rid
                of the berms and put in retail and office/R&D uses instead.
                > >
                > > The last point is that no-one expects to scuttle the Blue
                Greenway or Cargo Way improvements. A lot of folks who haven't been
                as closely part of the process showed up and asked questions. From
                what I heard they were pretty civil and probably acted much like what
                I see at the monthly meeting.
                > > Carpenters like to talk and ask questions, and are generally an
                irreverent bunch which may have freaked some people out. There was
                certainly no intention to be anything other than a bit more engaged
                and vocal about the Union's interests in building its hall.
                > >
                > > I may be wrong about this, but I have a very strong feeling that
                this can easily be resolved in way that gives us all a fantastic Blue
                Greenway link to Heron's Head Park while meeting the Union's needs.
                The staff certainly wants to see that happen as does the Union. Lets
                lower the temperature here and see that it does.
                > >
                > > Alex
              • Jim Hunger
                I think pretty much everyone is happy with the carpenters union building a substantial union hall at 3rd and Cargo Way. But they should have considered the
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 8, 2008
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                  I think pretty much everyone is happy with the carpenters' union building a substantial union hall at 3rd and Cargo Way. But they should have considered the restrictions required for building on the property instead of coming up with a design that requires extreme variances from the zoning restrictions.
                   
                  I can't believe you're trying to promote erasing greenspace for the sake of urbanization, Alex! I think you must have lost cred with just about anybody in this neighborhood who has been supporting preserving as much greenspace as we can as the steamroller of progress rolls through. And if proximity to the lightrail is an argument, it is that union members can avoid parking problems by using mass transit. Moreover, you really talk out both sides of your mouth when, on the one hand, you made a big issue of eliminating parking a few months ago, and now you're supporting a lot of street parking around your own union hall.
                   
                  Even without parking on Cargo Way, there is still plenty of parking in the India Basin area. Making a rationalization for eliminating the greenspace on 3rd is really unconsionable. I am an ardent supporter of unions, but I have to question a union's support of the community if they expect to come in and wreak havoc with the careful planning that is in progress for the betterment of our neighborhood. It may be inconvenient for the carpenters' union to come up with a better plan for their building, but it's a small price to pay if they really want to be a good neighbor.

                  Alex Lantsberg <lantsberg@...> wrote:
                  Hi all,

                  I've spent some time trying to get a better understanding of what happened at the Cargo Way and it appears that there's a lot of emotion and hyperbole flying around, none of which does much to either shed light on this issue or bring us any closer to getting the Bay Trail and Blue Greenway improvements that are much needed at our neighborhood's Northern Gateway.  I have little reason to believe that everyone's concerns can be worked out and I hope that this doesn't become any bigger than it needs to be.

                  First off, yes.  The planned project on the corner of 3rd & Cargo is the new Carpenters Local 22 Union Hall, which will  house the Union as well as some of the City's workforce development programs.  For those who don't know, the Carpenters Union is a 125 year non-profit organization that is woven into the very fiber of this City, with a long history in BVHP.  Years ago one of the locals used to be down on Newhall but moved after a bunch of reorganization and consolidation.  Local 22 has about 4,000 dues paying members, of which I am one, and has both outgrown its current location at 18th & 3rd Street. It is literally bursting at the seams there and the transition of that neighborhood into a mixed residential & commercial area has made the current hall simply impractical.  Several hundred members live in the 94124 ZIP code.  With Union construction work being one of the most accessible ways for non-college grads to enter the middle class we hope to have a lot of additional membership growth coming from the Bayview. 

                  Second, the Union has been working to build the hall at 3rd & Cargo for something like two and half years now and one of the principal reason for that site being selected was its being in an industrial area with plenty of available off-street parking.  Monthly union meeting usually attract about 100 and sometimes upwards of 150 people.  I believe the project will have up to about 70 (I may have misheard that number so I apologize if i'm wrong) on-site spaces which should accomodate the building's daily regular needs.  It is simply impractical to try to build on-site parking that would be used so infrequently especially considering its on the light-rail line 

                  Third, the idea of eliminating the India Basin Industrial Park berm is right on from the standpoint of an urbanist.  We live in a dense city and the fact of the matter is that the design of IBSP is straight out of a suburban model that does not work for what 3rd Street has become.  Believe it or not I actually wrote a paper on the development of the IBSP back when I was in grad school. Considering that the site next to the future Carpenters hall is also currently undeveloped it makes perfect sense to bring the buildings to the street and give that block (from Cargo to Burke) some urban character to transition from the heavy industrial uses at the Port.  Personally, I would love to see the entire stretch, not to mention the west side of 3rd, from Cargo to Evans redeveloped to get rid of the berms and put in retail and office/R&D uses instead.

                  The last point is that no-one expects to scuttle the Blue Greenway or Cargo Way improvements.  A lot of folks who haven't been as closely part of the process showed up and asked questions.  From what I heard they were pretty civil and probably acted much like what I see at the monthly meeting.  Carpenters like to talk and ask questions, and are generally an irreverent bunch which may have freaked some people out.  There was certainly no intention to be anything other than a bit more engaged and vocal about the Union's interests in building its hall.  

                  I may be wrong about this, but I have a very strong feeling that this can easily be resolved in way that gives us all a fantastic Blue Greenway link to Heron's Head Park while meeting the Union's needs.  The staff certainly wants to see that happen as does the Union.  Lets lower the temperature here and see that it does.

                  Alex

                • Alex Lantsberg
                  jim and all, glad to hear that there s general support for the new hall. i do want to say however that i actually think i m being fairly consistent with
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 8, 2008
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                    jim and all,

                    glad to hear that there's general support for the new hall.  i do want to say however that i actually think i'm being fairly consistent with everything i've written before.  here's how and why...
                    1. i support reducing on-site parking requirements due to the fact that they raise construction costs and encourage driving.  i like to see residential parking 'unbundled' from the actual housing
                    2. i tend to support on-street parking options (especially metered during peak times) since they allow a whole range of users to use the street throughout the day and also provide a traffic calming benefit for pedestrians.  i don't think i've argued for the removal of street-spaces. i've certainly supported on-street parking on innes avenue at the gateway to Hunters Point Shipyard and given the choice i'd gladly trade away a lane of traffic for a lane of parking or a wider sidewalk.
                    3. i avidly support greenspace and trees whether in the public right of way, on a roof, or in a parking lot.  however i strongly disapprove of suburban development types that pull buildings away from the street, hide them behind barriers, and deaden streets. i consider the berms to be these types of barriers regardless of the fact that they're essentially laws.  the fact remains that we live in San Francisco not a San Jose office park.  matt also argued that they serve a stormwater management function, but that is in fact marginal since there's a fair amount of runoff because the soil is too compacted  and they're too steep to infiltrate significantly.
                    IMO these proposed exemptions are consistent with good urban planning and design and certainly with my own view on how our neighborhood should transform over the next generation.  i've also been advised that the variances being requested are in fact of a lesser scale than what had been preliminarily granted to the prior property owner for a data server farm project that didn't get off the ground.

                    now on to solutions.  i have asked the redevelopment staff to conduct a parking census so we can have a better idea of the on-street availability in the area.  there will probably be some effort made to allow on-street parking on cargo in a way that preserves the bike lane, as well as facilitates green space and the other good stuff that we all want to see there.  there could probably also be some street parking on amador. 

                    the basic gist is that i refuse to believe that the projects are a zero-sum proposition.  i would hope that others agree to think creatively and work to ensure that to be the case.

                    aml

                    On Feb 8, 2008 12:04 PM, Jim Hunger <jimhunger@...> wrote:

                    I think pretty much everyone is happy with the carpenters' union building a substantial union hall at 3rd and Cargo Way. But they should have considered the restrictions required for building on the property instead of coming up with a design that requires extreme variances from the zoning restrictions.
                     
                    I can't believe you're trying to promote erasing greenspace for the sake of urbanization, Alex! I think you must have lost cred with just about anybody in this neighborhood who has been supporting preserving as much greenspace as we can as the steamroller of progress rolls through. And if proximity to the lightrail is an argument, it is that union members can avoid parking problems by using mass transit. Moreover, you really talk out both sides of your mouth when, on the one hand, you made a big issue of eliminating parking a few months ago, and now you're supporting a lot of street parking around your own union hall.
                     
                    Even without parking on Cargo Way, there is still plenty of parking in the India Basin area. Making a rationalization for eliminating the greenspace on 3rd is really unconsionable. I am an ardent supporter of unions, but I have to question a union's support of the community if they expect to come in and wreak havoc with the careful planning that is in progress for the betterment of our neighborhood. It may be inconvenient for the carpenters' union to come up with a better plan for their building, but it's a small price to pay if they really want to be a good neighbor.



                  • bayview94124
                    Thanks for continuing the discussion. I hope our group members are able to get the big picture as new bits of information are added. I recall, Alex, you have
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 8, 2008
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                      Thanks for continuing the discussion. I hope our group members are
                      able to get the big picture as new bits of information are added.

                      I recall, Alex, you have argued against the parking requirement in
                      building before, I thought to keep construction costs down. I'm sure
                      many in construction or contracting concur. Low cost building, higher
                      profit margin. We can call that discussion a stalemate.

                      I thought you also believed people should be compelled onto Muni.
                      Good thing the 3rd Street lightrail stops so close to Cargo Way.

                      Definitely keep the parking on Innes for the safety of the India
                      Basin, & IBNA pedestrians. You need that buffer. Your street will
                      become a highway without it. Count on me to stand beside you when
                      that comes up.

                      With a fixed width on Cargo Way, the way to add parking if not
                      removing a lane of traffic, is make the lanes narrorer, or take away
                      from bike lanes, green space, and pedestrians. If you can make the
                      12' truck lanes narrorer to allow for parking, without taking away
                      green space, bike lanes and either sidewalk, I would say it's
                      negotiable.

                      To say the Union's plan is better than the worse plan that fell apart
                      is no consolation. When the building goes up, no matter who builds
                      it, they obviously should keep the setback greener, flatter and more
                      permeable. That lot is flat anyway, and if compacted it's because of
                      the lack of greening and maintenance. I'm all for making the other
                      setbacks more permeable, regardless, the sidewalk is designed to be
                      permeable, so any run off from the "compacted berm" will still be
                      absorbed. That is why the proposed green down the center of the
                      street (which exists now) and the greening between the streets,
                      bicyclists, and pedestrians must remain, and not be sacrificed.

                      If the union builds the number of spaces required by current code the
                      number of street spaces needed for the traffic they themselves are
                      generating will be less. Ask that the parking lot at the mouth of
                      Heron's Head be painted to maximize spaces. People with mobility
                      issues can park in the union hall building, the rest can walk 3
                      blocks. It'll be a very nice walk, designed to be pedestrian & bike
                      friendly.

                      So let's be creative. Let's think outside the box. If you want to
                      sacrifice a lane of traffic, it would have to be when the fewest
                      trucks would be on Cargo Way. Can we close one eastbound lane after
                      hours, or on Sundays? There seems to be an unwritten law to allow one
                      lane of Guerrero each direction to be closed every Sunday. That
                      leaves one lane each way instead of 2 each way. How many hours a day
                      do the cement trucks traverse Cargo? Is is 7 days a week? Dawn to
                      dusk? Are the union meetings regular? Would you only need parking for
                      3 hours, twice a month? Isn't there parking on Amador? Can't they buy
                      the lot next door to the union hall proposed site?

                      Don't purposely design too few spaces and then argue you don't have
                      enough parking. Shame on the builders. First build to code. Then lets
                      negotiate.

                      --- In betterbayview@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Lantsberg"
                      <lantsberg@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > jim and all,
                      >
                      > glad to hear that there's general support for the new hall. i do
                      want to say however that i actually think i'm being fairly consistent
                      with everything i've written before. here's how and why...
                      >
                      > 1. i support reducing on-site parking requirements due to the
                      fact that they raise construction costs and encourage driving. i
                      like to see residential parking 'unbundled' from the actual housing
                      > 2. i tend to support on-street parking options (especially
                      metered during peak times) since they allow a whole range of users to
                      use the street throughout the day and also provide a traffic calming
                      benefit for pedestrians. i don't think i've argued for the removal
                      of street-spaces.
                      > i've certainly supported on-street parking on innes avenue at
                      the gateway to Hunters Point Shipyard and given the choice i'd
                      gladly trade away a lane of traffic for a lane of parking or a wider
                      sidewalk.
                      > 3. i avidly support greenspace and trees whether in the public
                      right of way, on a roof, or in a parking lot. however i strongly
                      disapprove of suburban development types that pull buildings away
                      from the street, hide them behind barriers, and deaden streets. i
                      consider the berms to be these types of barriers regardless of the
                      fact that they're essentially laws. the fact remains that we live
                      in San Francisco not a San Jose office park. matt
                      > also argued that they serve a stormwater management function,
                      but that is in fact marginal since there's a fair amount of runoff
                      because the soil is too compacted and they're too steep to
                      infiltrate significantly.
                      > IMO these proposed exemptions are consistent with good urban
                      planning and design and certainly with my own view on how our
                      neighborhood should transform over the next generation. i've also
                      been advised that the variances being requested are in fact of a
                      lesser scale than what had been preliminarily granted to the prior
                      property owner for a data server farm project that didn't get off the
                      ground.
                      >
                      > now on to solutions. i have asked the redevelopment staff to
                      conduct a parking census so we can have a better idea of the on-
                      street availability in the area. there will probably be some effort
                      made to allow on-street parking on cargo in a way that preserves the
                      bike lane, as well as facilitates green space and the other good
                      stuff that we all want to see there. there could probably also be
                      some street parking on amador.
                      >
                      > the basic gist is that i refuse to believe that the projects are a
                      zero-sum proposition. i would hope that others agree to think
                      creatively and work to ensure that to be the case.
                      >
                      > aml
                      >
                      > On Feb 8, 2008 12:04 PM, Jim Hunger <jimhunger@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > I think pretty much everyone is happy with the carpenters' union
                      > > building a substantial union hall at 3rd and Cargo Way. But they
                      should have considered the restrictions required for building on the
                      property instead of coming up with a design that requires extreme
                      variances from the zoning restrictions.
                      > >
                      > > I can't believe you're trying to promote erasing greenspace for
                      the sake of urbanization, Alex! I think you must have lost cred with
                      just about anybody in this neighborhood who has been supporting
                      preserving as much greenspace as we can as the steamroller of
                      progress rolls through. And if proximity to the lightrail is an
                      argument, it is that union members can avoid parking problems by
                      using mass transit. Moreover, you really talk out both sides of your
                      mouth when, on the one hand, you made a big issue of eliminating
                      parking a few months ago, and now you're supporting a lot of
                      > > street parking around your own union hall.
                      > >
                      > > Even without parking on Cargo Way, there is still plenty of
                      parking in the India Basin area. Making a rationalization for
                      eliminating the greenspace on 3rd is really unconsionable. I am an
                      ardent supporter of unions, but I have to question a union's support
                      of the community if they expect to come in and wreak havoc with the
                      careful planning that is in progress for the betterment of our
                      neighborhood. It may be inconvenient for the carpenters' union to
                      > > come up with a better plan for their building, but it's a small
                      price to pay if they really want to be a good neighbor.
                      > >
                      > > **
                    • Alex Lantsberg
                      i m going to bring this to a close - at least as far as my posting on this matter. my point in posting on this matter was to straighten out the record and
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 8, 2008
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                        i'm going to bring this to a close - at least as far as my posting on this matter. 

                        my point in posting on this matter was to straighten out the record and lower the temperature, not negotiate on behalf of local 22, much less redevelopment, the port, or anyone else involved.  i neither have that authority nor have i asked for it. the discussions will continue amongst all interested parties with the goal of coming to a resolution that works for EVERYONE involved. 

                        the last thing i'll say is that zoning codes are not immutable received wisdom from on high but measures implemented to achieve the needs of the situation and future expectations at the time of their passage. as such exemptions/variances are granted and changes are made that reflect current understandings and needs.  i oppose big setbacks on this stretch of 3rd, think that high on-site parking requirements result in a waste of space and/or money, and believe that parking is better kept on the street.  i'm sure there are others who feel the same way i do, just as there are others who disagree with.  what i am certain of is that something will get worked out provided everyone negotiates in good faith.

                        so with that, over and out...until the next debate!

                        aml

                        ps-glad to hear that y'all will help us make sure that innes isn't turned into a freeway for hunters point shipyard.  we'll need your support!
                      • thinklizzylou
                        It has been my experience that the more parking spots that exist anywhere, the more people drive and fill them. For example, when they built PacBell Park,
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 9, 2008
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                          It has been my experience that the more parking spots that exist
                          anywhere, the more people drive and fill them. For example, when they
                          built PacBell Park, they limited the parking spots and over the years,
                          more and more spots disapear. They did not design the park and the
                          area around it to make it more convenient for cars, they did the
                          opposite in fact. The result: thousands of fans every game load off of
                          and back onto CalTrans and Muni. I contend the more parking spaces
                          anywhere, the more people will drive.

                          I personally oppose any plan that will get in the way of a fluid bike
                          way and any plan that will accomodate more cars and less trees. This
                          is inconsistent with greening our neighborhood and city.


                          --- In betterbayview@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Lantsberg" <lantsberg@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > i'm going to bring this to a close - at least as far as my posting
                          on this
                          > matter.
                          >
                          > my point in posting on this matter was to straighten out the record and
                          > lower the temperature, not negotiate on behalf of local 22, much less
                          > redevelopment, the port, or anyone else involved. i neither have that
                          > authority nor have i asked for it. the discussions will continue
                          amongst all
                          > interested parties with the goal of coming to a resolution that
                          works for
                          > EVERYONE involved.
                          >
                          > the last thing i'll say is that zoning codes are not immutable received
                          > wisdom from on high but measures implemented to achieve the needs of the
                          > situation and future expectations at the time of their passage. as such
                          > exemptions/variances are granted and changes are made that reflect
                          current
                          > understandings and needs. i oppose big setbacks on this stretch of 3rd,
                          > think that high on-site parking requirements result in a waste of space
                          > and/or money, and believe that parking is better kept on the street.
                          i'm
                          > sure there are others who feel the same way i do, just as there are
                          others
                          > who disagree with. what i am certain of is that something will get
                          worked
                          > out provided everyone negotiates in good faith.
                          >
                          > so with that, over and out...until the next debate!
                          >
                          > aml
                          >
                          > ps-glad to hear that y'all will help us make sure that innes isn't
                          turned
                          > into a freeway for hunters point shipyard. we'll need your support!
                          >
                        • bayview94124
                          Without being expected to negotiate for them, I was hoping Alex could tell us how often the union meetings are, and how long they last. ... they built PacBell
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 10, 2008
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                            Without being expected to negotiate for them, I was hoping Alex could
                            tell us how often the union meetings are, and how long they last.

                            --- In betterbayview@yahoogroups.com, "thinklizzylou"
                            <thinklizzylou@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > It has been my experience that the more parking spots that exist
                            > anywhere, the more people drive and fill them. For example, when
                            they built PacBell Park, they limited the parking spots and over the
                            years, more and more spots disapear. They did not design the park and
                            the area around it to make it more convenient for cars, they did the
                            > opposite in fact. The result: thousands of fans every game load off
                            of and back onto CalTrans and Muni. I contend the more parking spaces
                            > anywhere, the more people will drive.
                            >
                            > I personally oppose any plan that will get in the way of a fluid
                            bike way and any plan that will accomodate more cars and less trees.
                            This is inconsistent with greening our neighborhood and city.
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In betterbayview@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Lantsberg" <lantsberg@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > i'm going to bring this to a close - at least as far as my posting
                            > on this matter.
                            > >
                            > > my point in posting on this matter was to straighten out the
                            record and lower the temperature, not negotiate on behalf of local
                            22, much less redevelopment, the port, or anyone else involved. i
                            neither have that authority nor have i asked for it. the discussions
                            will continue amongst all interested parties with the goal of coming
                            to a resolution that works for EVERYONE involved.> >

                            > > the last thing i'll say is that zoning codes are not immutable
                            received wisdom from on high but measures implemented to achieve the
                            needs of the situation and future expectations at the time of their
                            passage. as such exemptions/variances are granted and changes are
                            made that reflect current understandings and needs. i oppose big
                            setbacks on this stretch of 3rd, think that high on-site parking
                            requirements result in a waste of space and/or money, and believe
                            that parking is better kept on the street. i'm sure there are others
                            who feel the same way i do, just as there are others who disagree
                            with. what i am certain of is that something will get worked out
                            provided everyone negotiates in good faith.
                            > >
                            > > so with that, over and out...until the next debate!
                            > >
                            > > aml
                            > >
                            > > ps-glad to hear that y'all will help us make sure that innes isn't
                            > turned into a freeway for hunters point shipyard. we'll need your
                            support!
                          • Alex Lantsberg
                            regular union meetings are monthly, from 7-10pm or so. between 100-150 members attend from all around the city & vicinity. there are also morning dispatches
                            Message 13 of 13 , Feb 10, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              regular union meetings are monthly, from 7-10pm or so.  between 100-150 members attend from all around the city & vicinity.
                              there are also morning dispatches where out of work members come to the hall for a couple of hours to be dispatched to jobsites around town.

                              On Feb 10, 2008 8:57 AM, bayview94124 <mendellapt@...> wrote:

                              Without being expected to negotiate for them, I was hoping Alex could
                              tell us how often the union meetings are, and how long they last.

                              --- In betterbayview@yahoogroups.com, "thinklizzylou"


                              <thinklizzylou@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > It has been my experience that the more parking spots that exist
                              > anywhere, the more people drive and fill them. For example, when
                              they built PacBell Park, they limited the parking spots and over the
                              years, more and more spots disapear. They did not design the park and
                              the area around it to make it more convenient for cars, they did the
                              > opposite in fact. The result: thousands of fans every game load off
                              of and back onto CalTrans and Muni. I contend the more parking spaces
                              > anywhere, the more people will drive.
                              >
                              > I personally oppose any plan that will get in the way of a fluid
                              bike way and any plan that will accomodate more cars and less trees.
                              This is inconsistent with greening our neighborhood and city.
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In betterbayview@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Lantsberg" <lantsberg@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > i'm going to bring this to a close - at least as far as my posting
                              > on this matter.
                              > >
                              > > my point in posting on this matter was to straighten out the
                              record and lower the temperature, not negotiate on behalf of local
                              22, much less redevelopment, the port, or anyone else involved. i
                              neither have that authority nor have i asked for it. the discussions
                              will continue amongst all interested parties with the goal of coming
                              to a resolution that works for EVERYONE involved.> >

                              > > the last thing i'll say is that zoning codes are not immutable
                              received wisdom from on high but measures implemented to achieve the
                              needs of the situation and future expectations at the time of their
                              passage. as such exemptions/variances are granted and changes are
                              made that reflect current understandings and needs. i oppose big
                              setbacks on this stretch of 3rd, think that high on-site parking
                              requirements result in a waste of space and/or money, and believe
                              that parking is better kept on the street. i'm sure there are others
                              who feel the same way i do, just as there are others who disagree
                              with. what i am certain of is that something will get worked out
                              provided everyone negotiates in good faith.
                              > >
                              > > so with that, over and out...until the next debate!
                              > >
                              > > aml
                              > >
                              > > ps-glad to hear that y'all will help us make sure that innes isn't
                              > turned into a freeway for hunters point shipyard. we'll need your
                              support!


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