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Re: [betterbayview] Re: SHIPYARD LEGACY FUND meeting 5/19 9am-130pm

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  • Jim Hunger
    Two of the three developments presented had interesting elements, but neither was exactly what would be good for our neighborhood, in my opinion. In the San
    Message 1 of 8 , May 24, 2007
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      Two of the three developments presented had interesting elements, but neither was exactly what would be good for our neighborhood, in my opinion. In the San Diego one, they developed a desirable shopping center, and I think that would be a good idea for the parcel of land BVHP will be getting from this deal.
       
      The Dudely St. project (Boston) used eminent domain to reclaim abandoned and severely neglected properties. The director noted that it was important for regular homeowners to be reassured that it wouldn't be used to take their homes away.  Some people remember the Urban Renewal years of the 50s and early 60s, when eminent domain was used to clear large parcels of land for redevelopment. Often these redevelopments failed. But no one has any intention of doing this in BVHP.  Some people use it as a scare tactic, though.

      bayview94124 <mendellapt@...> wrote:
      Just a follow up. The meeting ran long, but the best part was at the end.
      We got to speak to the out of town guest speakers who have been through similar and
      successful neighborhood development in other cities and states.

      A few catch phrases used were...

      Better Neighborhood/ Same Neighbors.

      Development without Displacement.
      ffordable (housing) without Crime.

      It was noted by one speaker that the Asian and Hispanic residents would come if they saw
      Asian and Latino faces on the C.A.C and that the we are responsible for doing better
      outreach.

      We were also advised to realize this is a long term commitment of neighbors to continually
      develop and improve the neighborhood. There is no finish line or end date. It must be
      sustainable. We were also encouraged to make connections to other groups and
      organizations outside of Bayview who can help us, teach us, or partner with us.
      .


    • Alex Lantsberg
      i m familiar with both dudley street and market creek in san diego and its important for us to keep in mind the differences between what we have at HPS and
      Message 2 of 8 , May 24, 2007
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        i'm familiar with both dudley street and market creek in san diego and its important for us to keep in mind the differences between what we have at HPS and these other two fine examples.  i think the dudley street example is very applicable to the broader neighborhood and i've always looked to it as a model for what we can do in BVHP.  the problem as i see it is that the dudley street neighborhood was far better organized than the bayview and - at least in the stuff i've learned about it - was far less fracticious with less infighting borne of the experiences and grudges of two generations of activism.  i recently saw a very good presentation on market creek and - if i recall correctly - its critical component was a private foundation that made a commitment to the neighborhood and was able to move things along through its own initiative.  they may have worked with a big site (though nowhere as big as HPS) but it was otherwise a whole different set of kittens. the commercial mix there was  pretty cookie cutter corporate and would definitely not be described as reflective of either SF or BVHP  .

        now the plans for HPS call for markets and community space so it seems that the question is how to use the money in a way that will help establish and grow businesses, promote educational opportunities, and generally do things that will bring some tangible return to the neighborhood. 

        was any of this covered at the workshop?

        aml


         
        On 5/24/07, Jim Hunger < jimhunger@...> wrote:

        Two of the three developments presented had interesting elements, but neither was exactly what would be good for our neighborhood, in my opinion. In the San Diego one, they developed a desirable shopping center, and I think that would be a good idea for the parcel of land BVHP will be getting from this deal.
         
        The Dudely St. project (Boston) used eminent domain to reclaim abandoned and severely neglected properties. The director noted that it was important for regular homeowners to be reassured that it wouldn't be used to take their homes away.  Some people remember the Urban Renewal years of the 50s and early 60s, when eminent domain was used to clear large parcels of land for redevelopment. Often these redevelopments failed. But no one has any intention of doing this in BVHP.  Some people use it as a scare tactic, though.

        bayview94124 <mendellapt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
        Just a follow up. The meeting ran long, but the best part was at the end.
        We got to speak to the out of town guest speakers who have been through similar and
        successful neighborhood development in other cities and states.

        A few catch phrases used were...

        Better Neighborhood/Same Neighbors.

        Development without Displacement.
        ffordable (housing) without Crime.

        It was noted by one speaker that the Asian and Hispanic residents would come if they saw
        Asian and Latino faces on the C.A.C and that the we are responsible for doing better
        outreach.

        We were also advised to realize this is a long term commitment of neighbors to continually
        develop and improve the neighborhood. There is no finish line or end date. It must be
        sustainable. We were also encouraged to make connections to other groups and
        organizations outside of Bayview who can help us, teach us, or partner with us.
        .



      • Mendell Street
        I don t believe anything as concrete as what we should do was covered. It was to me more of an inspirational motivational presentation. This is our success
        Message 3 of 8 , May 25, 2007
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          I don't believe anything as concrete as what we should do was
          covered. It was to me more of an inspirational motivational
          presentation. "This is our success story. You can do it too."

          None of the 3 guest organizations speaking were exactly like BHP but
          none were exactly different either. Funding was very different, and
          they didn't really elaborate about resistance to change except for
          mentioning their slogans. They seemed to have more communtiy
          involvement, but that may appear to be the case now that they've got
          so many years under their belts, and successes they can point to.

          Matt

          --- Alex Lantsberg <lantsberg@...> wrote:

          > i'm familiar with both dudley street and market creek in san diego
          > and its
          > important for us to keep in mind the differences between what we
          > have at HPS
          > and these other two fine examples. i think the dudley street
          > example is
          > very applicable to the broader neighborhood and i've always looked
          > to it as
          > a model for what we can do in BVHP. the problem as i see it is
          > that the
          > dudley street neighborhood was far better organized than the
          > bayview and -
          > at least in the stuff i've learned about it - was far less
          > fracticious with
          > less infighting borne of the experiences and grudges of two
          > generations of
          > activism. i recently saw a very good presentation on market creek
          > and - if
          > i recall correctly - its critical component was a private
          > foundation that
          > made a commitment to the neighborhood and was able to move things
          > along
          > through its own initiative. they may have worked with a big site
          > (though
          > nowhere as big as HPS) but it was otherwise a whole different set
          > of
          > kittens. the commercial mix there was pretty cookie cutter
          > corporate and
          > would definitely not be described as reflective of either SF or
          > BVHP .
          >
          > now the plans for HPS call for markets and community space so it
          > seems that
          > the question is how to use the money in a way that will help
          > establish and
          > grow businesses, promote educational opportunities, and generally
          > do things
          > that will bring some tangible return to the neighborhood.
          >
          > was any of this covered at the workshop?
          >
          > aml
          >
          >
          >
          > On 5/24/07, Jim Hunger <jimhunger@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Two of the three developments presented had interesting
          > elements, but
          > > neither was exactly what would be good for our neighborhood, in
          > my opinion.
          > > In the San Diego one, they developed a desirable shopping center,
          > and I
          > > think that would be a good idea for the parcel of land BVHP will
          > be getting
          > > from this deal.
          > >
          > > The Dudely St. project (Boston) used eminent domain to reclaim
          > abandoned
          > > and severely neglected properties. The director noted that it was
          > important
          > > for regular homeowners to be reassured that it wouldn't be used
          > to take
          > > their homes away. Some people remember the Urban Renewal years
          > of the 50s
          > > and early 60s, when eminent domain was used to clear large
          > parcels of land
          > > for redevelopment. Often these redevelopments failed. But no one
          > has any
          > > intention of doing this in BVHP. Some people use it as a scare
          > tactic,
          > > though.
          > >
          > > *bayview94124 <mendellapt@...>* wrote:
          > >
          > > Just a follow up. The meeting ran long, but the best part was at
          > the end.
          > > We got to speak to the out of town guest speakers who have been
          > through
          > > similar and
          > > successful neighborhood development in other cities and states.
          > >
          > > A few catch phrases used were...
          > >
          > > Better Neighborhood/Same Neighbors.
          > >
          > > Development without Displacement.
          > > ffordable (housing) without Crime.
          > >
          > > It was noted by one speaker that the Asian and Hispanic residents
          > would
          > > come if they saw
          > > Asian and Latino faces on the C.A.C and that the we are
          > responsible for
          > > doing better
          > > outreach.
          > >
          > > We were also advised to realize this is a long term commitment of
          > > neighbors to continually
          > > develop and improve the neighborhood. There is no finish line or
          > end date.
          > > It must be
          > > sustainable. We were also encouraged to make connections to other
          > groups
          > > and
          > > organizations outside of Bayview who can help us, teach us, or
          > partner
          > > with us.
          > > .
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Jim Hunger
          They did mention most of what you refer to, Alex, but they didn t go into detail about the specific stores in the Market Creek commercial development. All of
          Message 4 of 8 , May 26, 2007
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            They did mention most of what you refer to, Alex, but they didn't go into detail about the specific stores in the Market Creek commercial development. All of the other projects were smaller than Hunters Point--tiny if you include the plans for all of BVHP. One of the problems, I felt, with the Dudley St. Project (the best of the 3) was that they kept ownership of the land and provided 99-year leases to the new affordable housing homeowners, with restrictions on resale to assure the housing would continue to be affordable housing in the future.  I just don't think this would work in SF, and I thought the houses they built were unattractive. They looked like married housing on a military base.
             
            I also don't think there is as much dissension against the development going on here as appears on the surface. A few noisy drums aren't the whole orchestra. My experience in the neighborhood is that while some people are wary, the vast majority view guided and conscientious change as a good thing for everyone. A few people, such as Willie Ratliff and Charlie Walker, are unhappy because they haven't been allowed to be big movers and shakers in the development. But neither of these guys is capable of doing a decent job in this kind of role.
             
            Jim

            Alex Lantsberg <lantsberg@...> wrote:
            i'm familiar with both dudley street and market creek in san diego and its important for us to keep in mind the differences between what we have at HPS and these other two fine examples.  i think the dudley street example is very applicable to the broader neighborhood and i've always looked to it as a model for what we can do in BVHP.  the problem as i see it is that the dudley street neighborhood was far better organized than the bayview and - at least in the stuff i've learned about it - was far less fracticious with less infighting borne of the experiences and grudges of two generations of activism.  i recently saw a very good presentation on market creek and - if i recall correctly - its critical component was a private foundation that made a commitment to the neighborhood and was able to move things along through its own initiative.  they may have worked with a big site (though nowhere as big as HPS) but it was otherwise a whole different set of kittens. the commercial mix there was  pretty cookie cutter corporate and would definitely not be described as reflective of either SF or BVHP  .

            now the plans for HPS call for markets and community space so it seems that the question is how to use the money in a way that will help establish and grow businesses, promote educational opportunities, and generally do things that will bring some tangible return to the neighborhood. 

            was any of this covered at the workshop?

            aml


             
            On 5/24/07, Jim Hunger < jimhunger@sbcglobal .net> wrote:
            Two of the three developments presented had interesting elements, but neither was exactly what would be good for our neighborhood, in my opinion. In the San Diego one, they developed a desirable shopping center, and I think that would be a good idea for the parcel of land BVHP will be getting from this deal.
             
            The Dudely St. project (Boston) used eminent domain to reclaim abandoned and severely neglected properties. The director noted that it was important for regular homeowners to be reassured that it wouldn't be used to take their homes away.  Some people remember the Urban Renewal years of the 50s and early 60s, when eminent domain was used to clear large parcels of land for redevelopment. Often these redevelopments failed. But no one has any intention of doing this in BVHP.  Some people use it as a scare tactic, though.

            bayview94124 <mendellapt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
            Just a follow up. The meeting ran long, but the best part was at the end.
            We got to speak to the out of town guest speakers who have been through similar and
            successful neighborhood development in other cities and states.

            A few catch phrases used were...

            Better Neighborhood/ Same Neighbors.

            Development without Displacement.
            ffordable (housing) without Crime.

            It was noted by one speaker that the Asian and Hispanic residents would come if they saw
            Asian and Latino faces on the C.A.C and that the we are responsible for doing better
            outreach.

            We were also advised to realize this is a long term commitment of neighbors to continually
            develop and improve the neighborhood. There is no finish line or end date. It must be
            sustainable. We were also encouraged to make connections to other groups and
            organizations outside of Bayview who can help us, teach us, or partner with us.
            .




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