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rockybru: Art Haron vs The Lipas Man

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  • YW Loke
    * REPOST - 1st copy lost in the Net * ... From: Y.W.Loke To: Berita Malaysia Cc: BMalaysia
    Message 1 of 1 , Nov 24, 2009
      * REPOST - 1st copy lost in the Net *
      ________________________________

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Y.W.Loke" <ywloke@...>
      To: "Berita Malaysia" <beritamalaysia@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: "BMalaysia" <bmalaysia@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:35 PM
      Subject: rockybru: Art Haron vs The Lipas Man


      http://rockybru.com.my/2009/11/art-haron-vs-lipas-man.html

      Art Haron vs The Lipas Man
      at 11:35 AM Friday, November 20, 2009

      Insider gets democratic over Dr M's remarks.

      Lawyer Art Haron's critic of Dr Mahathir's views on democracy has been
      answered by fellow columnist at The Malaysian Insider. Read Sinatra Z
      - An Answer, here. Art's piece was published in MI here but Zaidel aka
      Sinatra's response hasn't been published by the online news portal.
      http://lipassepi.blogspot.com/2009/11/sinatraz-answer.html
      http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/opinion/art-harun/43907-enemies-of-the-state

      Sinatra's pro-M stance shines through like a crazy diamond. His
      concluding paras:


      "There is such a thing as too much democracy, look at Pakistan, apart
      from cricket the national's favourite past time is politics and it is
      dominated by lawyers, look how screwed up it gets.

      "On the other hand, China is being ruled by a group of Engineers and
      they are flying high.

      "Dr M is a lousy philosopher yes I agree, and that's why people like
      him because Philosophers will only talk and do very little while
      technocrats (like Doctors) do more and talk less. Philosopher ini
      macam Anwar Ibrahim".


      I don't think the Malaysian Insider would publish such a piece. Good
      try, though, Z. I do agree with you (and Dr M). We don't need to look
      so far, just across the Causeway. We are way more democratic than
      Singapore, and look at how many of us idolize the Republic for its
      progress and wealth. Given the choice, however, I'd stay put here, Z.

      And what was it that Dr M say?


      India too democratic, says former Malaysian PM
      Herald Globe
      Tuesday 17th November, 2009 (IANS)

      Former Malaysian prime minister Mahathir Mohamad has singled out India
      as an Asian country that has 'made the mistake of being too
      democratic' and compared it unfavourably with China's authoritarian
      regime.

      Mahathir said: 'India, of course, will grow, but more slowly than
      China. It has the numbers but is not making use of them well.'

      He identified China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and, 'to a lesser
      extent', India as the countries which would lead the Asian charge, New
      Straits Times said Tuesday.

      Mahathir, who ruled Malaysia for over two decades, told a seminar on
      Asia and 21st century that people 'do not understand the limits of
      democracy'.

      'Democracy can be a hindrance to progress because you spend so much
      time politicking that you don't have time to develop your country.

      'In China, there's not much politics. So, they can spend more time
      developing their country.'

      He blamed the West for making democracy and freedom the cornerstone of
      progress.

      It is the West's focus on democracy, civil rights and individual
      liberties - attributes flaunted by Western governments - that Mahathir
      identified as being the reason behind 'its economic flaccidity'.

      'The British believe a lot in so-called freedom. Their workers must be
      allowed to go on strike all the time. So, they have the problem of
      being a very unproductive population.

      'They must be free of everything. When you do that, productivity will
      drop. When productivity drops, you cannot compete.'

      Talking about Asia, Mahathir ruled out a role for 'strife-torn' West Asia.

      'They are not going to make much progress, unfortunately. They are not
      going to contribute to the Asia of the 21st century. But it doesn't
      matter because Asia is such a big place,' Mahathir said.

      East Asia's emerging economic dominance over the West is due to its
      productivity and strong work ethic, he said.

      However, the former premier warned of the increasing trend among young
      Asians to ape Western culture.

      'Today, there are places in Tokyo where you see young people with
      multi-coloured hair. They look like Red Indians. These are the young
      Japanese who have adopted Western values,' said the octogenarian who
      continues to draw crowds six years after he quit office.

      'They want to be free and be able to change the place they work, hop
      from one place to another and take marijuana. This is what the
      Europeans do. This is progress for those young people.'
      ____

      http://lipassepi.blogspot.com/2009/11/sinatraz-answer.html

      Sinatra_Z - An Answer
      Catatan Sinatra_Z at 9:30 AM

      Art Harun wrote this in TMI
      http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/opinion/art-harun/43907-enemies-of-the-state

      And I answered -

      I'm pretty sure, those starving hard working farmers in India who has
      to fight drought and fertilizer prices don't give a damn about freedom
      of speech or expression. It is those comfortably well paid lawyers
      with some extra time on their hands who are more concerned about these
      things and write about it.

      Meaning, Before you talk about democracy perhaps it is wise to first
      elevate the people's (rakyat) quality of living, because like the
      maslow's hierarchy of needs there are more important things to fulfill
      before they get to the self actualization level.

      India has one of the most open democracy in the world yet the people
      are still racists. Now what does that tell you, democracy does not
      make you less racist, education is. In fact during the times of Soviet
      Union Russians aren't racists at all because communism knows no
      colour, yet now in a democracy they have the biggest population of
      skinheads and nazi groups because of economic factor.

      If given the chance to an Indian labourer on whether he would prefer
      to go to Shanghai and lose his democratic rights yet get a good job
      and stay in Bangalore and be paid peanuts yet he can vote, I think we
      can pretty much guess the outcome.

      And yes Dr M says China, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan will lead the charge.
      Japan has been ruled by the same party for over 50 years before, South
      Korea and Taiwan was once ruled by dictators who are horrible in human
      rights but spur fast economic growth and efficiency during their time.

      There is such a thing as too much democracy, look at Pakistan, apart
      from cricket the national's favourite past time is politics and it is
      dominated by lawyers, look how screwed up it gets.

      On the other hand, China is being ruled by a group of Engineers and
      they are flying high.

      Dr M is a lousy philosopher yes I agree, and that's why people like
      him because Philosophers will only talk and do very little while
      technocrats (like Doctors) do more and talk less. Philosopher ini
      macam Anwar Ibrahim.
      ____

      Dr M on democracy and sore losers
      http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/118089

      Enemies of the State
      http://art-harun.blogspot.com/2009/11/enemies-of-state.html
      ____

      http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/118167

      'Dr M, you killed democracy in Malaysia'
      Nov 24, 09 7:47am

      'That is your legacy You silenced the voices of dissent in no
      uncertain terms. And in the end, the monsters your created devoured
      you in the process.'

      Dr M on democracy and sore losers
      http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/118089

      Suhaimi Said: Dr Mahathir Mohamad, I remember you as a dictator.
      Hundreds of people were detained under ISA during your rule. So don't
      talk about democracy. I was a victim of your dictatorship.

      Equaliser: Dr Mahathir, you killed democracy in Malaysia - that is
      your legacy. We don't need people like you anymore in this blessed
      country. You are a Malay nationalist, that's all. You didn't serve all
      of Malaysia's people, which include the Chinese, Indians, and other
      ethnic groups.

      A statesman is one who has served his country's people well and
      promoted democratic values and principles within government
      institutions and society as whole. You silenced voices of dissent in
      no uncertain terms. And in the end, the monsters your created devoured
      you in the process.

      Yes, you created monsters greedy for money and power, and who were
      willing to use any means necessary to acquire them. This country has
      failed to serve all its people and continues to do so. You began the
      trend of money politics and this is the result of your actions.

      Just watch the news daily and you can see how lop-sided the coverage
      is in favour of the ruling party, and this right in front of our very
      own eyes. If only all Malaysians would open their eyes and ears to see
      and listen, they would know what to do come the 13th general election.

      Kris: It has been estimated that during Mahathir's premiership, the
      amount of taxpayers' money allegedly misused by him and his cronies
      was in the region of hundreds of billions. To carry out this, he
      completely destroyed the judiciary and the enforcement agencies by
      replacing the honest top officials in these agencies with tainted
      officials who could be blackmailed into doing his bidding.

      By having these people under his thumb and by controlling the media
      and the civil service, he ensured that he literally had dictatorial
      powers. To make sure that all the crooked deals that he made were not
      known to the public, he enacted laws like the Official Secrets Act.

      In short, he was a premier who manipulated the democratic system to
      give himself dictatorial powers. That is why it is extremely
      disgusting to hear this man pontificating on democracy or corruption.
      Playfair: It is sad but not surprising that Dr Mahathir continues to
      peddle half-truths to justify his opinions. He reduces democracy to a
      one-dimensional event - elections - and fails to refer to other
      equally important elements that constitute the package called
      democracy.

      He speaks of "sore losers", but what about the 'tyranny of the
      majority' (which he should be all too familiar with)? A system
      cultivated and nourished through dubious means and made legal through
      a two-thirds majority and then used to subvert national institutions
      to do the bidding of the majority - sore losers are nothing compared
      to this tyranny.

      Asian values were promoted as an ideology to restrict mass political
      participation, good governance, transparency and accountability. The
      sacking of Anwar Ibrahim could not have been more un-Asian, not to
      mention un-Islamic, un-Malay and un-Malaysian (if Umno will allow the
      use of such a term).

      Please keep speaking, sir, so that we can find out how you worked your
      way to remain in power for so long.

      TC88: Talk about sore losers. Mahathir is probably a hypocrite. When
      Umno was declared illegal and Mahathir's position as its leader and
      prime minister was sorely threatened, he sacked the then Lord
      President and the five Supreme Court (now called the Federal Court)
      judges when he knew the verdict was not going to be in his favour.

      Dr Mahathir, you destroyed the very fabric of Malaysia's public
      institutions, its constitution, the judiciary, the enforcement
      agencies like the police, attorney-general, and the then ACA

      This has been highlighted by Ku Li (Tengku Razaleigh Hamzah) in his
      speeches. Please do the honourable thing and retire, and just keep
      quiet like your anointed successor, Pak Lah (Abdullah Ahmad Badawi),
      the Father of Malaysia's Conscience.
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