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Re: Sonata #8, Op 13 "Pathetique"

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  • dmanildi
    I join in the strongest possible vote for Moravec, and am unable to understand his apparent elimination from the 15 versions listed. D.Manildi
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 2, 2009
      I join in the strongest possible vote for Moravec, and am unable to understand his apparent elimination from the 15 versions listed.

      D.Manildi

      --- In beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com, "George" <gperkins151@...> wrote:
      >
      > Strongly seconded!!
      >
      > He's my favorite too!
      >
      >
      > --- In beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com, John Endicott <jeendicott@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Ivan Moravec!
      > >
      > > J
      > >
      >
    • Richard Mathisen
      George, John, Dmitri, Moravec: I admit that I somehow overlooked the Moravec recording of Op 13 when I compiled my preliminary list of favorites in July 2008.
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 2, 2009
        George, John, Dmitri,

        Moravec:

        I admit that I somehow overlooked the Moravec recording of Op 13 when I compiled my preliminary list of favorites in July 2008. I have listened to the Moravec recording recently. It seems like it should be at least in my "Top 10." (I am currently listening to all my recordings of Op 13, some 89 of them, as part of my usual procedure.)

        Again, I do encourage you and others to post your own list(s) of favorite recordings of Op 13 (the "Pathetique")!

        Richter-Haaser:

        Reently, I have listened twice to the Richter-Haaser recording of Op 13 (from November 1955). The Richter-Haaser recording will *not* rank very high in my list of favorites, despite the fact that there is much to admire. Richter-Haaser's playing is elegant and polished and displays exemplary clarity. Every note is in place and carefully balanced. Yet there is little energy or emotion. When compared to other recordings of Op 13, the other recordings usually seem preferable to me.

        In this regard, I recall my own first exposure to Richter-Haaser in 1961, while I was still in high school. I acquired an LP of two of Beethoven's late sonatas played by Richter-Haaser (if memory serves, it was Op 109 and Op 110). I was a big fan of Sviatoslav Richter back then, as I still am, and was a bit confused by the similar name. At first, I really liked the Richter-Haaser recordings for their clarity, since late Beethoven sonatas are very difficult to play with clarity. However, repeated re-hearings left me feeling that the recordings were empty and I stopped listening to them. My reaction to Richter-Haaser's recording of the Pathetique today seems to be very similar to my reaction to Richter-Haaser back then. I admire his playing and I can understand why others admire his playing, but it seems to me to be missing something very important.

        Dick Mathisen

        --- In beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com, "George" <gperkins151@...> wrote:
        >
        > Strongly seconded!!
        >
        > He's my favorite too!
        >
        >
        > --- In beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com, John Endicott <jeendicott@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Ivan Moravec!
        > >
        > > J
        > >
        >
      • John Duffy
        Dear Dick Mathisen, Have you considered Artur Pizarro, the Portuguese pianist, recording for LINN Records? John Duffy
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 2, 2009
        Dear Dick Mathisen,
        Have you considered Artur Pizarro,
        the Portuguese pianist, recording for LINN Records?
      • dmitri knessin
        I see your point. as you know my admiration for Richter Haaser is based on the fugue of the hammerklavier. He played it like it was A fugue instead of THE
        Message 4 of 16 , Nov 2, 2009


          I see your point. as you know my admiration for Richter Haaser is based on the fugue of the hammerklavier. He played it like it was 'A' fugue instead of THE FUGUE.... technically it was the best I heard.... and it was in good style. WTK style no I come to think of it....

          but I understand if you would find that lacking in energy.


           

           




          --- On Mon, 11/2/09, Richard Mathisen <richard.mathisen@...> wrote:

          From: Richard Mathisen <richard.mathisen@...>
          Subject: [beethovensonatas] Op 13 -- Moravec, Richter-Haaser
          To: beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, November 2, 2009, 4:00 PM

           

          George, John, Dmitri,

          Moravec:

          I admit that I somehow overlooked the Moravec recording of Op 13 when I compiled my preliminary list of favorites in July 2008. I have listened to the Moravec recording recently. It seems like it should be at least in my "Top 10." (I am currently listening to all my recordings of Op 13, some 89 of them, as part of my usual procedure.)

          Again, I do encourage you and others to post your own list(s) of favorite recordings of Op 13 (the "Pathetique" )!

          Richter-Haaser:

          Reently, I have listened twice to the Richter-Haaser recording of Op 13 (from November 1955). The Richter-Haaser recording will *not* rank very high in my list of favorites, despite the fact that there is much to admire. Richter-Haaser' s playing is elegant and polished and displays exemplary clarity. Every note is in place and carefully balanced. Yet there is little energy or emotion. When compared to other recordings of Op 13, the other recordings usually seem preferable to me.

          In this regard, I recall my own first exposure to Richter-Haaser in 1961, while I was still in high school. I acquired an LP of two of Beethoven's late sonatas played by Richter-Haaser (if memory serves, it was Op 109 and Op 110). I was a big fan of Sviatoslav Richter back then, as I still am, and was a bit confused by the similar name. At first, I really liked the Richter-Haaser recordings for their clarity, since late Beethoven sonatas are very difficult to play with clarity. However, repeated re-hearings left me feeling that the recordings were empty and I stopped listening to them. My reaction to Richter-Haaser' s recording of the Pathetique today seems to be very similar to my reaction to Richter-Haaser back then. I admire his playing and I can understand why others admire his playing, but it seems to me to be missing something very important.

          Dick Mathisen

          --- In beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com, "George" <gperkins151@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > Strongly seconded!!
          >
          > He's my favorite too!
          >
          >
          > --- In beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com, John Endicott <jeendicott@ > wrote:
          > >
          > > Ivan Moravec!
          > >
          > > J
          > >
          >


        • George
          Hi Dick. My Pathetique picks (in order): Moravec Richter(Melodiya) Serkin(mono) Serkin(stereo) Annie Fischer Gilels (DG) Nat (EMI) Kovacevich (EMI) Gulda
          Message 5 of 16 , Nov 3, 2009
            Hi Dick.

            My Pathetique picks (in order):

            Moravec
            Richter(Melodiya)
            Serkin(mono)
            Serkin(stereo)
            Annie Fischer
            Gilels (DG)
            Nat (EMI)
            Kovacevich (EMI)
            Gulda (Amadeo, Brilliant)
            Backhaus (stereo)
            Schnabel (Naxos)

            George




            --- In beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mathisen" <richard.mathisen@...> wrote:
            >
            > George, John, Dmitri,
            >
            > Moravec:
            >
            > I admit that I somehow overlooked the Moravec recording of Op 13 when I compiled my preliminary list of favorites in July 2008. I have listened to the Moravec recording recently. It seems like it should be at least in my "Top 10." (I am currently listening to all my recordings of Op 13, some 89 of them, as part of my usual procedure.)
            >
            > Again, I do encourage you and others to post your own list(s) of favorite recordings of Op 13 (the "Pathetique")!
          • Richard A Mathisen
            George, Thank you very much! I always look forward to seeing your choices, partly because I always learn from them. When you specify Richter (Melodiya), I
            Message 6 of 16 , Nov 3, 2009
              George,
               
              Thank you very much! I always look forward to seeing your choices, partly because I always learn from them.
               
              When you specify "Richter (Melodiya)," I assume you are referring to Richter's live performance from 1958 rather than the studio recording from 1959. Is that correct? If so, could you say a few words about why you prefer one over the other? (I'm not arguing with you, I'm just curious!)
               
              When you mention Annie Fischer, I'm sure you mean the standard recording from the box set, not the much earlier EMI studio recording.
               
              Have you encountered any of the Edwin Fischer recordings of the Pathetique?
               
              Thanks again for your list! Sorry about the questions, but I just like to pick your brain!
               
              Dick Mathisen

              On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:03 AM, George <gperkins151@...> wrote:
               

              Hi Dick.

              My Pathetique picks (in order):

              Moravec
              Richter(Melodiya)
              Serkin(mono)
              Serkin(stereo)
              Annie Fischer
              Gilels (DG)
              Nat (EMI)
              Kovacevich (EMI)
              Gulda (Amadeo, Brilliant)
              Backhaus (stereo)
              Schnabel (Naxos)

              George



              --- In beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mathisen" <richard.mathisen@...> wrote:
              >
              > George, John, Dmitri,
              >
              > Moravec:
              >
              > I admit that I somehow overlooked the Moravec recording of Op 13 when I compiled my preliminary list of favorites in July 2008. I have listened to the Moravec recording recently. It seems like it should be at least in my "Top 10." (I am currently listening to all my recordings of Op 13, some 89 of them, as part of my usual procedure.)
              >
              > Again, I do encourage you and others to post your own list(s) of favorite recordings of Op 13 (the "Pathetique")!


            • wkasimer@comcast.net
              I ve just begun going through my recordings of this sonata; so far, Zoltan Kocsis heads the short list, and by a considerable margin. Bill =============
              Message 7 of 16 , Nov 3, 2009
                I've just begun going through my recordings of this sonata; so far, Zoltan Kocsis heads the short list, and by a considerable margin.

                Bill

                =============
                William D. Kasimer
                wkasimer@...
                william_kasimer_md@...
              • John Duffy
                Dear Mr. Mathisen, Has Artur Pizarro s recording for Linn been considered and / or eliminated ? john Duffy
                Message 8 of 16 , Nov 3, 2009
                  Dear Mr. Mathisen,
                  Has Artur Pizarro's recording for Linn
                  been considered and / or eliminated ?
                  john Duffy


                  > I join in the strongest possible vote for Moravec,
                  > and am unable to understand his apparent
                  > elimination from the 15 versions listed.
                  > D.Manildi
                • George
                  I only have the 1959 performance by Richter and wasn t aware that there is another one. Can you tell me more about it? For Annie Fischer, yes I mean the
                  Message 9 of 16 , Nov 4, 2009
                    I only have the 1959 performance by Richter and wasn't aware that there is another one. Can you tell me more about it?

                    For Annie Fischer, yes I mean the Hungaroton. I should compare the EMI, though as I got it recently.

                    I think I have Edwin Fischer's Pathetique, but haven't got to it yet. Will let you know about this and Annie's EMI recording.

                    George

                    --- In beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com, Richard A Mathisen <richard.a.mathisen@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > George,
                    >
                    > Thank you very much! I always look forward to seeing your choices, partly
                    > because I always learn from them.
                    >
                    > When you specify "Richter (Melodiya)," I assume you are referring
                    > to Richter's live performance from 1958 rather than the studio recording
                    > from 1959. Is that correct? If so, could you say a few words about why you
                    > prefer one over the other? (I'm not arguing with you, I'm just curious!)
                    >
                    > When you mention Annie Fischer, I'm sure you mean the standard recording
                    > from the box set, not the much earlier EMI studio recording.
                    >
                    > Have you encountered any of the Edwin Fischer recordings of the Pathetique?
                    >
                    > Thanks again for your list! Sorry about the questions, but I just like to
                    > pick your brain!
                    >
                    > Dick Mathisen
                    >
                    > On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:03 AM, George <gperkins151@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hi Dick.
                    > >
                    > > My Pathetique picks (in order):
                    > >
                    > > Moravec
                    > > Richter(Melodiya)
                    > > Serkin(mono)
                    > > Serkin(stereo)
                    > > Annie Fischer
                    > > Gilels (DG)
                    > > Nat (EMI)
                    > > Kovacevich (EMI)
                    > > Gulda (Amadeo, Brilliant)
                    > > Backhaus (stereo)
                    > > Schnabel (Naxos)
                    > >
                    > > George
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com<beethovensonatas%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > "Richard Mathisen" <richard.mathisen@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > George, John, Dmitri,
                    > > >
                    > > > Moravec:
                    > > >
                    > > > I admit that I somehow overlooked the Moravec recording of Op 13 when I
                    > > compiled my preliminary list of favorites in July 2008. I have listened to
                    > > the Moravec recording recently. It seems like it should be at least in my
                    > > "Top 10." (I am currently listening to all my recordings of Op 13, some 89
                    > > of them, as part of my usual procedure.)
                    > > >
                    > > > Again, I do encourage you and others to post your own list(s) of favorite
                    > > recordings of Op 13 (the "Pathetique")!
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • George
                    Oh, I see, the Parnassus recording by Richter is live. I don t recall comparing the two, but should do that as well. Now I have a lot of homework. :-) G
                    Message 10 of 16 , Nov 4, 2009
                      Oh, I see, the Parnassus recording by Richter is live. I don't recall comparing the two, but should do that as well.

                      Now I have a lot of homework. :-)

                      G

                      --- In beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com, Richard A Mathisen <richard.a.mathisen@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > George,
                      >
                      > Thank you very much! I always look forward to seeing your choices, partly
                      > because I always learn from them.
                      >
                      > When you specify "Richter (Melodiya)," I assume you are referring
                      > to Richter's live performance from 1958 rather than the studio recording
                      > from 1959. Is that correct? If so, could you say a few words about why you
                      > prefer one over the other? (I'm not arguing with you, I'm just curious!)
                      >
                      > When you mention Annie Fischer, I'm sure you mean the standard recording
                      > from the box set, not the much earlier EMI studio recording.
                      >
                      > Have you encountered any of the Edwin Fischer recordings of the Pathetique?
                      >
                      > Thanks again for your list! Sorry about the questions, but I just like to
                      > pick your brain!
                      >
                      > Dick Mathisen
                      >
                      > On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:03 AM, George <gperkins151@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hi Dick.
                      > >
                      > > My Pathetique picks (in order):
                      > >
                      > > Moravec
                      > > Richter(Melodiya)
                      > > Serkin(mono)
                      > > Serkin(stereo)
                      > > Annie Fischer
                      > > Gilels (DG)
                      > > Nat (EMI)
                      > > Kovacevich (EMI)
                      > > Gulda (Amadeo, Brilliant)
                      > > Backhaus (stereo)
                      > > Schnabel (Naxos)
                      > >
                      > > George
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com<beethovensonatas%40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > > "Richard Mathisen" <richard.mathisen@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > George, John, Dmitri,
                      > > >
                      > > > Moravec:
                      > > >
                      > > > I admit that I somehow overlooked the Moravec recording of Op 13 when I
                      > > compiled my preliminary list of favorites in July 2008. I have listened to
                      > > the Moravec recording recently. It seems like it should be at least in my
                      > > "Top 10." (I am currently listening to all my recordings of Op 13, some 89
                      > > of them, as part of my usual procedure.)
                      > > >
                      > > > Again, I do encourage you and others to post your own list(s) of favorite
                      > > recordings of Op 13 (the "Pathetique")!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Richard Mathisen
                      George, Richter s studio recording of the Pathetique made June 4 1959 is by far the most widely known recording by him. There is a live recording made in April
                      Message 11 of 16 , Nov 5, 2009
                        George,

                        Richter's studio recording of the Pathetique made June 4 1959 is by far the most widely known recording by him.

                        There is a live recording made in April 1958 on Parnassus PACD 96-005/6 ("Sviatoslav Richter in the 1950s" Volume 3) which is also listed in Trovar. I wouldn't go out of my way to obtain the 1958 recording unless you're as obsessive as I am. I think the 1959 studio recording is preferable.

                        When you specified "Melodiya" as your Richter favorite, I erroneously jumped to the conclusion that you must be referring to the rare 1958 live recording rather than the standard 1959 studio recording. That was my mistake!

                        For Annie Fischer, I think the Hungaraton recording (from the box set) is much better than the earlier EMI recording. See what you think!

                        Are you familiar with the live Backhaus recording from a March 1954 Carnegie Hall recital? It was published in "Wilhelm Backhaus 1" in the "Great Pianists of the 20th Century Series," although I had also heard it on the original LP's. I think the Carnegie Hall recording is a little better than his stereo version that you mentioned in your list, but I don't know whether you'd agree.

                        There's also an astonishing Kempff recording of the Pathetique from 1936, which is much different from and much better (in my opinion) than either the mono or stereo versions. I obtained it on a bonus disk with my mono set from DGG.

                        Dick Mathisen

                        --- In beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com, "George" <gperkins151@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I only have the 1959 performance by Richter and wasn't aware that there is another one. Can you tell me more about it?
                        >
                        > For Annie Fischer, yes I mean the Hungaroton. I should compare the EMI, though as I got it recently.
                        >
                        > I think I have Edwin Fischer's Pathetique, but haven't got to it yet. Will let you know about this and Annie's EMI recording.
                        >
                        > George
                        >
                        > --- In beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com, Richard A Mathisen <richard.a.mathisen@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > George,
                        > >
                        > > Thank you very much! I always look forward to seeing your choices, partly
                        > > because I always learn from them.
                        > >
                        > > When you specify "Richter (Melodiya)," I assume you are referring
                        > > to Richter's live performance from 1958 rather than the studio recording
                        > > from 1959. Is that correct? If so, could you say a few words about why you
                        > > prefer one over the other? (I'm not arguing with you, I'm just curious!)
                        > >
                        > > When you mention Annie Fischer, I'm sure you mean the standard recording
                        > > from the box set, not the much earlier EMI studio recording.
                        > >
                        > > Have you encountered any of the Edwin Fischer recordings of the Pathetique?
                        > >
                        > > Thanks again for your list! Sorry about the questions, but I just like to
                        > > pick your brain!
                        > >
                        > > Dick Mathisen
                        > >
                        > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 7:03 AM, George <gperkins151@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Hi Dick.
                        > > >
                        > > > My Pathetique picks (in order):
                        > > >
                        > > > Moravec
                        > > > Richter(Melodiya)
                        > > > Serkin(mono)
                        > > > Serkin(stereo)
                        > > > Annie Fischer
                        > > > Gilels (DG)
                        > > > Nat (EMI)
                        > > > Kovacevich (EMI)
                        > > > Gulda (Amadeo, Brilliant)
                        > > > Backhaus (stereo)
                        > > > Schnabel (Naxos)
                        > > >
                        > > > George
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com<beethovensonatas%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > > > "Richard Mathisen" <richard.mathisen@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > George, John, Dmitri,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Moravec:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I admit that I somehow overlooked the Moravec recording of Op 13 when I
                        > > > compiled my preliminary list of favorites in July 2008. I have listened to
                        > > > the Moravec recording recently. It seems like it should be at least in my
                        > > > "Top 10." (I am currently listening to all my recordings of Op 13, some 89
                        > > > of them, as part of my usual procedure.)
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Again, I do encourage you and others to post your own list(s) of favorite
                        > > > recordings of Op 13 (the "Pathetique")!
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Richard A Mathisen
                        John Duffy, I m not familiar with Artur Pizarra or his recording of the Pathetique. If you wish to supply me with a copy I d be willing to consider it. I ve
                        Message 12 of 16 , Nov 5, 2009
                          John Duffy,
                           
                          I'm not familiar with Artur Pizarra or his recording of the Pathetique. If you wish to supply me with a copy I'd be willing to consider it. I've sent you my home address by separate note.
                           
                          Dick Mathisen

                          On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 10:36 PM, John Duffy <johnduffy@...> wrote:
                          Dear Mr. Mathisen,
                          Has Artur Pizarro's recording for Linn
                          been considered and / or eliminated ?
                          john Duffy


                          I join in the strongest possible vote for Moravec,
                          and am unable to understand his apparent
                          elimination from the 15 versions listed.
                           D.Manildi

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