Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7

Expand Messages
  • Richard Mathisen
    Preliminary Rankings: Recordings of Beethoven Sonata #4, Op 7 Op 7 01 Annie Fischer 02 Sviatoslav Richter Studio 03 Paul Badura-Skoda (1)
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 1, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Preliminary Rankings:
      Recordings of Beethoven Sonata #4, Op 7
       

      Op 7

       

                  01        Annie Fischer  

                  02        Sviatoslav Richter Studio         

                  03        Paul Badura-Skoda (1)

                  04        Claude Frank  

                  05        Sviatoslav RichterMoscow 1975         

                  06        Richard Goode

                  07        Vladimir Ashkenazy     

                  08        Jeno Jando      

                  09        Daniel Barenboim (2)   

                  10        Craig Sheppard           

                  11        Wilhelm Kempff (2)     

                  12        Stephen Kovacevich    

                  13        Seymour Lipkin           

                  14        Alfredo Perl     

                  15        Bernard Roberts          

       

       

      Recordings Considered: Anda (7-14-28), Arrau (1962-66)(ALL), 1949 (21+26), (1984-94)(1-2-8-16-21-22-24-25-26-30), Ashkenazy (1974-80)(ALL), Ashkenazy (1988-91)(14-21-23-28-30-31-32), Backhaus1 (ALL), Backhaus2 (ALL), Backhaus Carnegie (8-14-17-25-26-29-32), Backhaus Salzburg (12-14-17-26), Badura-Skoda1 (1970’s) (ALL), Barenboim1 (ALL), Barenboim2 (ALL), Barenboim3 (ALL), Berman (23), Brendel1 (ALL), Brendel2 (ALL), Brendel3 (ALL), Brendel Live (24+29), Buchbinder (ALL), Casadesus (2-14-23-24-26-28), Ciani (ALL), Cliburn (8-14-23-26), DeLarrocha (15), Douglas (29), Egorov (28), Eschenbach (29-30-31-32), Feltsman (30-31-32), Firkusny (8-14-21-30), Annie Fischer (ALL), Francois (8-14-23), Frank (ALL), Freire (14-21-26-31), Gelber (3-5-8-20), Gieseking 1949-50 (ALL except 4-5-7-20-22), 1951 (21+23), 1955-56 (1 to 14, 17-18-19-20-30-31), Gilels (ALL except 1-9-22-24-32), Gilels Live 1969 (14), 1984 (29), Goldsmith (5-17-21-31), Goode (ALL), Grimaud (28-30-31), Gulda1 (ALL), Gulda2 (ALL), Hamelin (30-31-32), Haskil 1955 (17-18), 1960 (17-18), Salzburg (18), Pristine (18), “Hatto” (ALL), Heidsieck (ALL), Hewitt (3-4-7-8-15-23), Horowitz 1946 (14), 1956-59 (7-14-21-23), 1963?-1972  (8-14-21-23-28), Horszowski 1977 (2-5-10-30), 19xx? (30-31-32), Jando (ALL), Kempff1 (ALL), Kempff2 (ALL), Kissin (14), Klien (8-14-23), Kovacevich (ALL), Kraus (21+30), Kuerti (ALL), Laredo (3-20-23-26), Lewis (ALL), Lill (ALL), Lipkin (ALL), Lortie (ALL except 22-23-24-25-27-30-31-32), Lupu (8-14-21), Michelangeli 1981 (11-12), 1990 (32), Morovec (8-14-23-26-27), Nat (ALL), Nikolayeva (ALL), Novaes (17-21-26), O’Conor (ALL), Ogdon (8-14-23), Ohlsson (2-3-4-8-9-10-12-14-15-21-24-25-26-27-28-32), Oland (ALL), Oppitz (ALL), Ortiz (8-14-17-21), Paik (16 to 26), Perahia (1-2-3-7-17-18-23-26-28), Perl (ALL), Pires 1973 (8-14-17-23), 2001 (13-14-30), Pletnev (32), Pollini studio (ALL except 4-9-10-16-18-19-20), Pollini live (21-23-24), Richter studio (1-3-4-7-8-9-10-11-12-17-19-20-22-23-27), Richter live Prague (3-7-12-17-18-23-27-28-29-31), Moscow (3-4-8-17-18-23-27-28-30-31-32), Carnegie (3-7-9-12-17-18-22-23-27-29-31), Bucharest (7-12), Polling (6-7-17-18), Paris (6-7-17-18), Helsinki (7), Aldeburgh (3+29), Ohrid (28+30), Tokyo (31-32), Leipzig (30-31-32), London (11+29), Brooklyn (18), Munich (10+12), Rellingen (32), Kreuth (11), Amsterdam (19-20-22-23), Ludwigsberg (30-31-32), Roberts (ALL), Rosen (27-28-29-30-31-32), Rubinstein 1954 (8-18-21-23), 1962-63 (3-8-14-23-26), 1975 (18), Sandorskaya (29), Schiff (1 to 21), Schnabel (ALL), Serkin (1945-60) (8-14-21-23-24-30-31),  (1962-80)(1-6-8-11-12-13-14-16-21-23-24-26-28-29-30-31-32), live (1987) (30-31-32), Sheppard (ALL), Solomon (1-3-7-8-13-14-17-18-21-22-23-26-27-28-29-30-31-32), Taub (5-6-7-8-16-28), Uchida (30-31-32), Vogel (29+32), Watts (13-14-23), Wild (7-8-14-18-23-29)

       

    • Richard Mathisen
      I want to encourage members of this group to comment on their own favorite recordings of Op 7. Even if you have only two recordings of Op 7, feel free to
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 12, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        I want to encourage members of this group to comment on their own favorite recordings of Op 7. Even if you have only two recordings of Op 7, feel free to compare the two of them to each other. If you have more, that's even better!
         
        I'm very pleased with the discussion of the first three sonatas (Op 2-1, 2-2 and 2-3). You have pointed me to many other top-quality recordings in addition to the ones I originally listed. I'm grateful for all of those recommendations!
         
        Of course, I've also been a bit overwhelmed in purchasing and otherwise receiving many new recordings of these Beethoven sonatas. I'm trying to absorb all the new information and recordings. I'm also trying to get my paperwork under better control.
         
        I wonder if we should speed up the pace a little. Does it make sense to consider more than one sonata at a time? Or should we stay with one sonata at a time? Feel free to respond publicly in this group.
         
        Finally, I'm trying to learn how to place numbers in columns in Yahoo. (I'm referring to my data on tempos as measured by a metronome.) If anyone has any knowledge about columns, I'd love to hear from you off-line!
         
        The following few lines are simply an experiment in columns.
         
        Pianist X    100    100    100    100    (100)
        Pianist Y    96    96    96    96    (96)
        Pianist Z    096    096    096    096    (096)
         
        Regards!
         
        Dick Mathisen
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:01 AM
        Subject: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7

        Preliminary Rankings:
        Recordings of Beethoven Sonata #4, Op 7
         

        Op 7

                    01        Annie Fischer  

                    02        Sviatoslav Richter Studio         

                    03        Paul Badura-Skoda (1)

                    04        Claude Frank  

                    05        Sviatoslav Richter Moscow 1975         

                    06        Richard Goode

                    07        Vladimir Ashkenazy     

                    08        Jeno Jando      

                    09        Daniel Barenboim (2)   

                    10        Craig Sheppard           

                    11        Wilhelm Kempff (2)     

                    12        Stephen Kovacevich    

                    13        Seymour Lipkin           

                    14        Alfredo Perl     

                    15        Bernard Roberts          

        Recordings Considered: Anda (7-14-28), Arrau (1962-66)(ALL) , 1949 (21+26), (1984-94)(1- 2-8-16-21- 22-24-25- 26-30), Ashkenazy (1974-80)(ALL) , Ashkenazy (1988-91)(14- 21-23-28- 30-31-32) , Backhaus1 (ALL), Backhaus2 (ALL), Backhaus Carnegie (8-14-17-25- 26-29-32) , Backhaus Salzburg (12-14-17-26) , Badura-Skoda1 (1970’s) (ALL), Barenboim1 (ALL), Barenboim2 (ALL), Barenboim3 (ALL), Berman (23), Brendel1 (ALL), Brendel2 (ALL), Brendel3 (ALL), Brendel Live (24+29), Buchbinder (ALL), Casadesus (2-14-23-24- 26-28), Ciani (ALL), Cliburn (8-14-23-26) , DeLarrocha (15), Douglas (29), Egorov (28), Eschenbach (29-30-31-32) , Feltsman (30-31-32), Firkusny (8-14-21-30) , Annie Fischer (ALL), Francois (8-14-23), Frank (ALL), Freire (14-21-26-31) , Gelber (3-5-8-20), Gieseking 1949-50 (ALL except 4-5-7-20-22) , 1951 (21+23), 1955-56 (1 to 14, 17-18-19-20- 30-31), Gilels (ALL except 1-9-22-24-32) , Gilels Live 1969 (14), 1984 (29), Goldsmith (5-17-21-31) , Goode (ALL), Grimaud (28-30-31), Gulda1 (ALL), Gulda2 (ALL), Hamelin (30-31-32), Haskil 1955 (17-18), 1960 (17-18), Salzburg (18), Pristine (18), “Hatto” (ALL), Heidsieck (ALL), Hewitt (3-4-7-8-15- 23), Horowitz 1946 (14), 1956-59 (7-14-21-23) , 1963?-1972  (8-14-21-23- 28), Horszowski 1977 (2-5-10-30), 19xx? (30-31-32), Jando (ALL), Kempff1 (ALL), Kempff2 (ALL), Kissin (14), Klien (8-14-23), Kovacevich (ALL), Kraus (21+30), Kuerti (ALL), Laredo (3-20-23-26) , Lewis (ALL), Lill (ALL), Lipkin (ALL), Lortie (ALL except 22-23-24-25- 27-30-31- 32), Lupu (8-14-21), Michelangeli 1981 (11-12), 1990 (32), Morovec (8-14-23-26- 27), Nat (ALL), Nikolayeva (ALL), Novaes (17-21-26), O’Conor (ALL), Ogdon (8-14-23), Ohlsson (2-3-4-8-9-10- 12-14-15- 21-24-25- 26-27-28- 32), Oland (ALL), Oppitz (ALL), Ortiz (8-14-17-21) , Paik (16 to 26), Perahia (1-2-3-7-17- 18-23-26- 28), Perl (ALL), Pires 1973 (8-14-17-23) , 2001 (13-14-30), Pletnev (32), Pollini studio (ALL except 4-9-10-16-18- 19-20), Pollini live (21-23-24), Richter studio (1-3-4-7-8-9- 10-11-12- 17-19-20- 22-23-27) , Richter live Prague (3-7-12-17-18- 23-27-28- 29-31), Moscow (3-4-8-17-18- 23-27-28- 30-31-32) , Carnegie (3-7-9-12-17- 18-22-23- 27-29-31) , Bucharest (7-12), Polling (6-7-17-18), Paris (6-7-17-18), Helsinki (7), Aldeburgh (3+29), Ohrid (28+30), Tokyo (31-32), Leipzig (30-31-32), London (11+29), Brooklyn (18), Munich (10+12), Rellingen (32), Kreuth (11), Amsterdam (19-20-22-23) , Ludwigsberg (30-31-32), Roberts (ALL), Rosen (27-28-29-30- 31-32), Rubinstein 1954 (8-18-21-23) , 1962-63 (3-8-14-23-26) , 1975 (18), Sandorskaya (29), Schiff (1 to 21), Schnabel (ALL), Serkin (1945-60) (8-14-21-23- 24-30-31) ,  (1962-80)(1- 6-8-11-12- 13-14-16- 21-23-24- 26-28-29- 30-31-32) , live (1987) (30-31-32), Sheppard (ALL), Solomon (1-3-7-8-13- 14-17-18- 21-22-23- 26-27-28- 29-30-31- 32), Taub (5-6-7-8-16- 28), Uchida (30-31-32), Vogel (29+32), Watts (13-14-23), Wild (7-8-14-18-23- 29)

      • Karl-Heinz Isleif
        Hello Richard, I have the Richter, Gilels and Michelangeli recordings of this sonata. But I am prejudiced, as you surely know by now; unless I hear the same
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 12, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Richard,

          I have the Richter, Gilels and Michelangeli recordings of this sonata.  
          But I am prejudiced, as you surely know by now; unless I hear the same 
          sonata on radio by someone else and it makes me automatically stop 
          what I am doing and listen, I don't feel the need to buy additional versions.  

          I for one find it very hard to take part in a discussion where a Paul Badura-Skoda 
          is ranked above Richter in any piece (and Gilels not even listed).  

          Perhaps more importantly:
          In order to impress me, a piano sonata, or any piece of  good music, has to 
          come across as a coherent unit.  All the tones, from the first to the last, have to 
          sound as if they belong to the same greater plan, leading to some same goal.  
          Telling a coherent story, painting a complete picture, that is.  Any disturbance 
          of that sense of unity is harmful.  

          Disturbance can be caused by inappropriate loudness, by inappropriate partial 
          speed (e.g.,rubato) inappropriate total speed, by inappropriate relative speed 
          from one scene to another, by inappropriate stress or the lack of it,  by inappropriate 
          shortcuts (‘correcting’ the composer!) or by a totally wrong conception of what  
          led the composer to write it the way he did.  And so on.   All these things get their 
          meaning only in respect to the whole picture.  Judging a sonata by criticizing a 
          performance on grounds of  ‘the second set has to be allegro, and he played it too 
          fast...’ or so, without regard to the whole picture sounds a lot like telling Van Gogh 
          he should have used more yellow or pink in this or that painting.

          Most of the top level pianists have more than sufficient technical ability to play 
          the most difficult stuff.  What they don’t necessarily all have, because it can’t be 
          acquired through practice or at school, is musicality.  The ones that do have this 
          asset are the ones who can paint the whole picture, no matter how fast or how 
          slow they might be playing it.  When you listen to them, and listen for the pleasure 
          of music and not for purpose of dismantling it,  you don’t discuss single mistakes 
          any more.  
          Not only because words will always be short of what the real impression in a 
          person’s head is.  And not only because Art as such is burdened with that sort 
          of shortcoming, i.e., that it does not avail itself to analytical explanation.  
          But mainly because you don’t hear them anymore.
          Karl

          On 13.03.2009, at 09:04, Richard Mathisen wrote:


          I want to encourage members of this group to comment on their own favorite recordings of Op 7. Even if you have only two recordings of Op 7, feel free to compare the two of them to each other. If you have more, that's even better!
           
          I'm very pleased with the discussion of the first three sonatas (Op 2-1, 2-2 and 2-3). You have pointed me to many other top-quality recordings in addition to the ones I originally listed. I'm grateful for all of those recommendations!
           
          Of course, I've also been a bit overwhelmed in purchasing and otherwise receiving many new recordings of these Beethoven sonatas. I'm trying to absorb all the new information and recordings. I'm also trying to get my paperwork under better control.
           
          I wonder if we should speed up the pace a little. Does it make sense to consider more than one sonata at a time? Or should we stay with one sonata at a time? Feel free to respond publicly in this group.
           
          Finally, I'm trying to learn how to place numbers in columns in Yahoo. (I'm referring to my data on tempos as measured by a metronome.) If anyone has any knowledge about columns, I'd love to hear from you off-line!
           
          The following few lines are simply an experiment in columns.
           
          Pianist X    100    100    100    100    (100)
          Pianist Y    96    96    96    96    (96)
          Pianist Z    096    096    096    096    (096)
           
          Regards!
           
          Dick Mathisen
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:01 AM
          Subject: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7


          Preliminary Rankings:
          Recordings of Beethoven Sonata #4, Op 7
           

          Op 7

                      01        Annie Fischer  

                      02        Sviatoslav Richter Studio         

                      03        Paul Badura-Skoda (1)

                      04        Claude Frank  

                      05        Sviatoslav Richter  Moscow 1975         

                      06        Richard Goode

                      07        Vladimir Ashkenazy     

                      08        Jeno Jando      

                      09        Daniel Barenboim (2)   

                      10        Craig Sheppard           

                      11        Wilhelm Kempff (2)     

                      12        Stephen Kovacevich    

                      13         Seymour Lipkin           

                      14        Alfredo Perl     

                      15        Bernard Roberts          

          Recordings Considered: Anda (7-14-28), Arrau (1962-66)(ALL) , 1949 (21+26), (1984-94)(1- 2-8-16-21- 22-24-25- 26-30), Ashkenazy (1974-80)(ALL) , Ashkenazy (1988-91)(14- 21-23-28- 30-31-32) , Backhaus1 (ALL), Backhaus2 (ALL), Backhaus Carnegie (8-14-17-25- 26-29-32) , Backhaus Salzburg (12-14-17-26) , Badura-Skoda1 (1970’s) (ALL), Barenboim1 (ALL), Barenboim2 (ALL), Barenboim3 (ALL), Berman (23), Brendel1 (ALL), Brendel2 (ALL), Brendel3 (ALL), Brendel Live (24+29), Buchbinder (ALL), Casadesus (2-14-23-24- 26-28), Ciani (ALL), Cliburn (8-14-23-26) , DeLarrocha (15), Douglas (29), Egorov (28), Eschenbach (29-30-31-32) , Feltsman (30-31-32), Firkusny (8-14-21-30) , Annie Fischer (ALL), Francois (8-14-23), Frank (ALL), Freire (14-21-26-31) , Gelber (3-5-8-20), Gieseking 1949-50 (ALL except 4-5-7-20-22) , 1951 (21+23), 1955-56 (1 to 14, 17-18-19-20- 30-31), Gilels (ALL except 1-9-22-24-32) , Gilels Live 1969 (14), 1984 (29), Goldsmith (5-17-21-31) , Goode (ALL), Grimaud (28-30-31), Gulda1 (ALL), Gulda2 (ALL), Hamelin (30-31-32), Haskil 1955 (17-18), 1960 (17-18), Salzburg (18), Pristine (18), “Hatto” (ALL), Heidsieck (ALL), Hewitt (3-4-7-8-15- 23), Horowitz 1946 (14), 1956-59 (7-14-21-23) , 1963?-1972  (8-14-21-23- 28), Horszowski 1977 (2-5-10-30), 19xx? (30-31-32), Jando (ALL), Kempff1 (ALL), Kempff2 (ALL), Kissin (14), Klien (8-14-23), Kovacevich (ALL), Kraus (21+30), Kuerti (ALL), Laredo (3-20-23-26) , Lewis (ALL), Lill (ALL), Lipkin (ALL), Lortie (ALL except 22-23-24-25- 27-30-31- 32), Lupu (8-14-21), Michelangeli 1981 (11-12), 1990 (32), Morovec (8-14-23-26- 27), Nat (ALL), Nikolayeva (ALL), Novaes (17-21-26), O’Conor (ALL), Ogdon (8-14-23), Ohlsson (2-3-4-8-9-10- 12-14-15- 21-24-25- 26-27-28- 32), Oland (ALL), Oppitz (ALL), Ortiz (8-14-17-21) , Paik (16 to 26), Perahia (1-2-3-7-17- 18-23-26- 28), Perl (ALL), Pires 1973 (8-14-17-23) , 2001 (13-14-30), Pletnev (32), Pollini studio (ALL except 4-9-10-16-18- 19-20), Pollini live (21-23-24), Richter studio (1-3-4-7-8-9- 10-11-12- 17-19-20- 22-23-27) , Richter live Prague (3-7-12-17-18- 23-27-28- 29-31), Moscow (3-4-8-17-18- 23-27-28- 30-31-32) , Carnegie (3-7-9-12-17- 18-22-23- 27-29-31) , Bucharest (7-12), Polling (6-7-17-18), Paris (6-7-17-18), Helsinki (7), Aldeburgh (3+29), Ohrid (28+30), Tokyo (31-32), Leipzig (30-31-32), London (11+29), Brooklyn (18), Munich (10+12), Rellingen (32), Kreuth (11), Amsterdam (19-20-22-23) , Ludwigsberg (30-31-32), Roberts (ALL), Rosen (27-28-29-30- 31-32), Rubinstein 1954 (8-18-21-23) , 1962-63 (3-8-14-23-26) , 1975 (18), Sandorskaya (29), Schiff (1 to 21), Schnabel (ALL), Serkin (1945-60) (8-14-21-23- 24-30-31) ,  (1962-80)(1- 6-8-11-12- 13-14-16- 21-23-24- 26-28-29- 30-31-32) , live (1987) (30-31-32), Sheppard (ALL), Solomon (1-3-7-8-13- 14-17-18- 21-22-23- 26-27-28- 29-30-31- 32), Taub (5-6-7-8-16- 28), Uchida (30-31-32), Vogel (29+32), Watts (13-14-23), Wild (7-8-14-18-23- 29)




        • Richard Mathisen
          Karl, Thank you for your comments about comparing recordings! I agree with most of your comments. First, my rankings represent my personal favorites. They
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 13, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Karl,
             
            Thank you for your comments about comparing recordings!  I agree with most of your comments.
             
            First, my rankings represent my personal "favorites." They have no inherent validity for anyone else. Your favorites will be different. Each of us will have our own favorite recording (or recordings) of any given piece of music.
             
            Second, thank you for recommending the Gilels and Michelangeli recordings of Op 7. I will certainly take another listen to the Gilels recording. At the time I completed my preliminary rankings, which was in July 2008, I had only one Michelangeli recording of Op 7 and it did not impress me. Now I have two more recordings and am trying for completeness. (I'm still missing the May 6 1970 recording of Op 7.)
             
            Third, concerning Paul Badura-Skoda and Sviatoslav Richter, I have come to the personal conclusion that Badura-Skoda is an greatly under-appreciated pianist. I am impressed by his Beethoven set from the 1970's (not the fortepiano version released more recently). I am a big Richter fan, but there are times that he makes interpretative decisions that puzzle me. His slow tempo in the third movement of Op 7 is one of those decisions that puzzle me.
             
            Fourth, I agree completely that a recording needs to come across as a coherent unit. That is why I have insisted on always doing a head-to-head comparison by playing one entire recording followed by another entire recording. It is always the total effect of one recording that must be compared to the total effect of another recording.
             
            How do we compare two recordings when one recording is better in movements 1, 2 and 4, but worse in movement 3? The answer is always by comparing the total effect.
             
            I have always tried to listen sympathetically to an artist's conception of a piece of music. Even where they make choices that bother me, I still must make the effort to appreciate what they are trying to do. In the end, though, the listener must make an evaluation of the effect made by the overall recording. Is the recording coherent? Does it communicate?
             
            The great danger, and I have wrestled with it constantly, is the competition syndrome. You know, where in a piano competition the judges start listening to the notes rather than the music. As a pianist myself, that is always a major danger. I try to do my best to avoid it, but it's always there!
             
            I hope I don't try to tell Van Gogh how to paint, or tell great pianists how to play. I try to analyze why a particular recording communicates more to me than another particular recording.
            My perspective, I hope, is always the perspective of a listener -- a knowledgeable listener who loves great music.
             
            Dick Mathisen
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:57 PM
            Subject: Re: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7

            Hello Richard,

            I have the Richter, Gilels and Michelangeli recordings of this sonata.  
            But I am prejudiced, as you surely know by now; unless I hear the same 
            sonata on radio by someone else and it makes me automatically stop 
            what I am doing and listen, I don't feel the need to buy additional versions.  

            I for one find it very hard to take part in a discussion where a Paul Badura-Skoda 
            is ranked above Richter in any piece (and Gilels not even listed).  

            Perhaps more importantly:
            In order to impress me, a piano sonata, or any piece of  good music, has to 
            come across as a coherent unit.  All the tones, from the first to the last, have to 
            sound as if they belong to the same greater plan, leading to some same goal.  
            Telling a coherent story, painting a complete picture, that is.  Any disturbance 
            of that sense of unity is harmful.  

            Disturbance can be caused by inappropriate loudness, by inappropriate partial 
            speed (e.g.,rubato) inappropriate total speed, by inappropriate relative speed 
            from one scene to another, by inappropriate stress or the lack of it,  by inappropriate 
            shortcuts (‘correcting’ the composer!) or by a totally wrong conception of what  
            led the composer to write it the way he did.  And so on.   All these things get their 
            meaning only in respect to the whole picture.  Judging a sonata by criticizing a 
            performance on grounds of  ‘the second set has to be allegro, and he played it too 
            fast...’ or so, without regard to the whole picture sounds a lot like telling Van Gogh 
            he should have used more yellow or pink in this or that painting.

            Most of the top level pianists have more than sufficient technical ability to play 
            the most difficult stuff.  What they don’t necessarily all have, because it can’t be 
            acquired through practice or at school, is musicality.  The ones that do have this 
            asset are the ones who can paint the whole picture, no matter how fast or how 
            slow they might be playing it.  When you listen to them, and listen for the pleasure 
            of music and not for purpose of dismantling it,  you don’t discuss single mistakes 
            any more.  
            Not only because words will always be short of what the real impression in a 
            person’s head is.  And not only because Art as such is burdened with that sort 
            of shortcoming, i.e., that it does not avail itself to analytical explanation.  
            But mainly because you don’t hear them anymore.
            Karl

            On 13.03.2009, at 09:04, Richard Mathisen wrote:


            I want to encourage members of this group to comment on their own favorite recordings of Op 7. Even if you have only two recordings of Op 7, feel free to compare the two of them to each other. If you have more, that's even better!
             
            I'm very pleased with the discussion of the first three sonatas (Op 2-1, 2-2 and 2-3). You have pointed me to many other top-quality recordings in addition to the ones I originally listed. I'm grateful for all of those recommendations!
             
            Of course, I've also been a bit overwhelmed in purchasing and otherwise receiving many new recordings of these Beethoven sonatas. I'm trying to absorb all the new information and recordings. I'm also trying to get my paperwork under better control.
             
            I wonder if we should speed up the pace a little. Does it make sense to consider more than one sonata at a time? Or should we stay with one sonata at a time? Feel free to respond publicly in this group.
             
            Finally, I'm trying to learn how to place numbers in columns in Yahoo. (I'm referring to my data on tempos as measured by a metronome.) If anyone has any knowledge about columns, I'd love to hear from you off-line!
             
            The following few lines are simply an experiment in columns.
             
            Pianist X    100    100    100    100    (100)
            Pianist Y    96    96    96    96    (96)
            Pianist Z    096    096    096    096    (096)
             
            Regards!
             
            Dick Mathisen
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:01 AM
            Subject: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7


            Preliminary Rankings:
            Recordings of Beethoven Sonata #4, Op 7
             

            Op 7

                        01        Annie Fischer  

                        02        Sviatoslav Richter Studio         

                        03        Paul Badura-Skoda (1)

                        04        Claude Frank  

                        05        Sviatoslav Richter  Moscow 1975         

                        06        Richard Goode

                        07        Vladimir Ashkenazy     

                        08        Jeno Jando      

                        09        Daniel Barenboim (2)   

                        10        Craig Sheppard           

                        11        Wilhelm Kempff (2)     

                        12        Stephen Kovacevich    

                        13         Seymour Lipkin           

                        14        Alfredo Perl     

                        15        Bernard Roberts          

            Recordings Considered: Anda (7-14-28), Arrau (1962-66)(ALL) , 1949 (21+26), (1984-94)(1- 2-8-16-21- 22-24-25- 26-30), Ashkenazy (1974-80)(ALL) , Ashkenazy (1988-91)(14- 21-23-28- 30-31-32) , Backhaus1 (ALL), Backhaus2 (ALL), Backhaus Carnegie (8-14-17-25- 26-29-32) , Backhaus Salzburg (12-14-17-26) , Badura-Skoda1 (1970’s) (ALL), Barenboim1 (ALL), Barenboim2 (ALL), Barenboim3 (ALL), Berman (23), Brendel1 (ALL), Brendel2 (ALL), Brendel3 (ALL), Brendel Live (24+29), Buchbinder (ALL), Casadesus (2-14-23-24- 26-28), Ciani (ALL), Cliburn (8-14-23-26) , DeLarrocha (15), Douglas (29), Egorov (28), Eschenbach (29-30-31-32) , Feltsman (30-31-32), Firkusny (8-14-21-30) , Annie Fischer (ALL), Francois (8-14-23), Frank (ALL), Freire (14-21-26-31) , Gelber (3-5-8-20), Gieseking 1949-50 (ALL except 4-5-7-20-22) , 1951 (21+23), 1955-56 (1 to 14, 17-18-19-20- 30-31), Gilels (ALL except 1-9-22-24-32) , Gilels Live 1969 (14), 1984 (29), Goldsmith (5-17-21-31) , Goode (ALL), Grimaud (28-30-31), Gulda1 (ALL), Gulda2 (ALL), Hamelin (30-31-32), Haskil 1955 (17-18), 1960 (17-18), Salzburg (18), Pristine (18), “Hatto” (ALL), Heidsieck (ALL), Hewitt (3-4-7-8-15- 23), Horowitz 1946 (14), 1956-59 (7-14-21-23) , 1963?-1972  (8-14-21-23- 28), Horszowski 1977 (2-5-10-30), 19xx? (30-31-32), Jando (ALL), Kempff1 (ALL), Kempff2 (ALL), Kissin (14), Klien (8-14-23), Kovacevich (ALL), Kraus (21+30), Kuerti (ALL), Laredo (3-20-23-26) , Lewis (ALL), Lill (ALL), Lipkin (ALL), Lortie (ALL except 22-23-24-25- 27-30-31- 32), Lupu (8-14-21), Michelangeli 1981 (11-12), 1990 (32), Morovec (8-14-23-26- 27), Nat (ALL), Nikolayeva (ALL), Novaes (17-21-26), O’Conor (ALL), Ogdon (8-14-23), Ohlsson (2-3-4-8-9-10- 12-14-15- 21-24-25- 26-27-28- 32), Oland (ALL), Oppitz (ALL), Ortiz (8-14-17-21) , Paik (16 to 26), Perahia (1-2-3-7-17- 18-23-26- 28), Perl (ALL), Pires 1973 (8-14-17-23) , 2001 (13-14-30), Pletnev (32), Pollini studio (ALL except 4-9-10-16-18- 19-20), Pollini live (21-23-24), Richter studio (1-3-4-7-8-9- 10-11-12- 17-19-20- 22-23-27) , Richter live Prague (3-7-12-17-18- 23-27-28- 29-31), Moscow (3-4-8-17-18- 23-27-28- 30-31-32) , Carnegie (3-7-9-12-17- 18-22-23- 27-29-31) , Bucharest (7-12), Polling (6-7-17-18), Paris (6-7-17-18), Helsinki (7), Aldeburgh (3+29), Ohrid (28+30), Tokyo (31-32), Leipzig (30-31-32), London (11+29), Brooklyn (18), Munich (10+12), Rellingen (32), Kreuth (11), Amsterdam (19-20-22-23) , Ludwigsberg (30-31-32), Roberts (ALL), Rosen (27-28-29-30- 31-32), Rubinstein 1954 (8-18-21-23) , 1962-63 (3-8-14-23-26) , 1975 (18), Sandorskaya (29), Schiff (1 to 21), Schnabel (ALL), Serkin (1945-60) (8-14-21-23- 24-30-31) ,  (1962-80)(1- 6-8-11-12- 13-14-16- 21-23-24- 26-28-29- 30-31-32) , live (1987) (30-31-32), Sheppard (ALL), Solomon (1-3-7-8-13- 14-17-18- 21-22-23- 26-27-28- 29-30-31- 32), Taub (5-6-7-8-16- 28), Uchida (30-31-32), Vogel (29+32), Watts (13-14-23), Wild (7-8-14-18-23- 29)




          • wkasimer@comcast.net
            ... For some reason, I m having a harder time getting into this sonata than I did with the Op. 2 sonatas. ... Please don t speed up!!! I always seem to be a
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 13, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              ----- "Richard Mathisen" <richard.mathisen@...> wrote:

              > I want to encourage members of this group to comment on their own
              > favorite recordings of Op 7. Even if you have only two recordings of
              > Op 7, feel free to compare the two of them to each other. If you have
              > more, that's even better!

              For some reason, I'm having a harder time getting "into" this sonata than I did with the Op. 2 sonatas.

              > I wonder if we should speed up the pace a little. Does it make sense
              > to consider more than one sonata at a time? Or should we stay with one
              > sonata at a time? Feel free to respond publicly in this group.

              Please don't speed up!!! I always seem to be a sonata behind, and I keep accumulating recordings (like you, the superb Kocsis disc came out of nowhere - I am a fan of his records, but didn't know about this one until it was staring me in the face in a local used CD store), now even re-purchasing sets that I'd jettisoned previously (Barenboim 1 and Goode) based on comments here. I've just begun Op. 7.

              Bill

              =============
              William D. Kasimer
              wkasimer@...
              william_kasimer_md@...

              >  
              > The following few lines are simply an experiment in columns.
              >  
              > Pianist X    100    100    100    100    (100)
              > Pianist Y    96    96    96    96    (96)
              > Pianist Z    096    096    096    096    (096)
              >  
              > Regards!
              >  
              > Dick Mathisen
              >  
              >  
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Richard Mathisen
              > To: beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:01 AM
              > Subject: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Preliminary Rankings:
              > Recordings of Beethoven Sonata #4, Op 7
              >  
              >
              >
              > Op 7
              >
              >
              >
              >              01         Annie Fischer   
              >
              >              02         Sviatoslav Richter Studio          
              >
              >              03         Paul Badura-Skoda (1)
              >
              >              04         Claude Frank   
              >
              >              05         Sviatoslav Richter Moscow 1975          
              >
              >              06         Richard Goode
              >
              >              07         Vladimir Ashkenazy      
              >
              >              08         Jeno Jando       
              >
              >              09         Daniel Barenboim (2)    
              >
              >              10         Craig Sheppard            
              >
              >              11         Wilhelm Kempff (2)      
              >
              >              12         Stephen Kovacevich     
              >
              >              13         Seymour Lipkin            
              >
              >              14         Alfredo Perl      
              >
              >              15         Bernard Roberts           
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Recordings Considered: Anda (7-14-28), Arrau (1962-66)(ALL), 1949
              > (21+26), (1984-94)(1-2-8-16-21-22-24-25-26-30), Ashkenazy
              > (1974-80)(ALL), Ashkenazy (1988-91)(14-21-23-28-30-31-32), Backhaus1
              > (ALL), Backhaus2 (ALL), Backhaus Carnegie (8-14-17-25-26-29-32),
              > Backhaus Salzburg (12-14-17-26), Badura-Skoda1 (1970’s) (ALL),
              > Barenboim1 (ALL), Barenboim2 (ALL), Barenboim3 (ALL), Berman (23),
              > Brendel1 (ALL), Brendel2 (ALL), Brendel3 (ALL), Brendel Live (24+29),
              > Buchbinder (ALL), Casadesus (2-14-23-24-26-28), Ciani (ALL), Cliburn
              > (8-14-23-26), DeLarrocha (15), Douglas (29), Egorov (28), Eschenbach
              > (29-30-31-32), Feltsman (30-31-32), Firkusny (8-14-21-30), Annie
              > Fischer (ALL), Francois (8-14-23), Frank (ALL), Freire (14-21-26-31),
              > Gelber (3-5-8-20), Gieseking 1949-50 (ALL except 4-5-7-20-22), 1951
              > (21+23), 1955-56 (1 to 14, 17-18-19-20-30-31), Gilels (ALL except
              > 1-9-22-24-32), Gilels Live 1969 (14), 1984 (29), Goldsmith
              > (5-17-21-31), Goode (ALL), Grimaud (28-30-31), Gulda1 (ALL), Gulda2
              > (ALL), Hamelin (30-31-32), Haskil 1955 (17-18), 1960 (17-18), Salzburg
              > (18), Pristine (18), “Hatto” (ALL), Heidsieck (ALL), Hewitt
              > (3-4-7-8-15-23), Horowitz 1946 (14), 1956-59 (7-14-21-23), 1963?-1972
              >   (8-14-21-23-28), Horszowski 1977 (2-5-10-30), 19xx? (30-31-32),
              > Jando (ALL), Kempff1 (ALL), Kempff2 (ALL), Kissin (14), Klien
              > (8-14-23), Kovacevich (ALL), Kraus (21+30), Kuerti (ALL), Laredo
              > (3-20-23-26), Lewis (ALL), Lill (ALL), Lipkin (ALL), Lortie (ALL
              > except 22-23-24-25-27-30-31-32), Lupu (8-14-21), Michelangeli 1981
              > (11-12), 1990 (32), Morovec (8-14-23-26-27), Nat (ALL), Nikolayeva
              > (ALL), Novaes (17-21-26), O’Conor (ALL), Ogdon (8-14-23), Ohlsson
              > (2-3-4-8-9-10-12-14-15-21-24-25-26-27-28-32), Oland (ALL), Oppitz
              > (ALL), Ortiz (8-14-17-21), Paik (16 to 26), Perahia
              > (1-2-3-7-17-18-23-26-28), Perl (ALL), Pires 1973 (8-14-17-23), 2001
              > (13-14-30), Pletnev (32), Pollini studio (ALL except
              > 4-9-10-16-18-19-20), Pollini live (21-23-24), Richter studio
              > (1-3-4-7-8-9-10-11-12-17-19-20-22-23-27), Richter live Prague
              > (3-7-12-17-18-23-27-28-29-31), Moscow (3-4-8-17-18-23-27-28-30-31-32),
              > Carnegie (3-7-9-12-17-18-22-23-27-29-31), Bucharest (7-12), Polling
              > (6-7-17-18), Paris (6-7-17-18), Helsinki (7), Aldeburgh (3+29), Ohrid
              > (28+30), Tokyo (31-32), Leipzig (30-31-32), London (11+29), Brooklyn
              > (18), Munich (10+12), Rellingen (32), Kreuth (11), Amsterdam
              > (19-20-22-23), Ludwigsberg (30-31-32), Roberts (ALL), Rosen
              > (27-28-29-30-31-32), Rubinstein 1954 (8-18-21-23), 1962-63
              > (3-8-14-23-26), 1975 (18), Sandorskaya (29), Schiff (1 to 21),
              > Schnabel (ALL), Serkin (1945-60) (8-14-21-23-24-30-31),  
              > (1962-80)(1-6-8-11-12-13-14-16-21-23-24-26-28-29-30-31-32), live
              > (1987) (30-31-32), Sheppard (ALL), Solomon
              > (1-3-7-8-13-14-17-18-21-22-23-26-27-28-29-30-31-32), Taub
              > (5-6-7-8-16-28), Uchida (30-31-32), Vogel (29+32), Watts (13-14-23),
              > Wild (7-8-14-18-23-29)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • gperkins151
              Hello again, Dick! My list for this sonata (in order) Richter Barenboim (DG) Nat Gulda (Brilliant) Kempff (mono) Hungerford Gilels Backhaus (stereo) Goode
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 13, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello again, Dick!

                My list for this sonata (in order)

                Richter
                Barenboim (DG)
                Nat
                Gulda (Brilliant)
                Kempff (mono)
                Hungerford
                Gilels
                Backhaus (stereo)
                Goode

                Interestingly, I don't enjoy Annie Fischer here, though as you know she is my favorite when nit comes to complete sets. The finale sounded rushed to me, the rest lacked finish and beauty IMO. My notes on her a couple of years old, perhaps I should revisit this over the weekend? I'll let you know if I do.


                Best,
                George
              • klavierneuling
                Thanks for your remarks, Richard. Taste is a strange thing! A friend of mine thinks Backhaus is the greatest and I can stand none of this pianist s
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 13, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks for your remarks, Richard. Taste is a strange thing! A friend
                  of mine thinks Backhaus is the greatest and I can stand none of this
                  pianist's Beethoven.

                  The three discs I have of the sonata Op.7 by Richter are probably
                  all from the same recording (will have to listen again to make sure),
                  all state 1975, but the dates given differ: Olympia OCD 336; Brilliant
                  Classics 92229/2, and the Japanese JVC VDC-1084.

                  The drama he develops in the third movement sounds particularly
                  beautiful to my ears - how can anyone not like it?!

                  I agree with you on the Michelangeli (for that piece at least ...). It is
                  the 3rd disc in the DG set 469 820-2, recorded 1971 in Munich.
                  For me, he emphasizes the wrong spots and too much so that my
                  ears get a distorted picture.

                  Unfortunately, presently I'm not where all my discs are, so I cannot
                  verify the Gilels version, recorded 1981 in Berlin. In any case, most
                  everything on this studio-set DG 453 221-2 is of utmost beauty and
                  hard to be equalled, let alone surpassed, by anybody.

                  Karl



                  --- In beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mathisen" <richard.mathisen@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Karl,
                  >
                  > Thank you for your comments about comparing recordings! I agree with most of your comments.
                  >
                  > First, my rankings represent my personal "favorites." They have no inherent validity for anyone else. Your favorites will be different. Each of us will have our own favorite recording (or recordings) of any given piece of music.
                  >
                  > Second, thank you for recommending the Gilels and Michelangeli recordings of Op 7. I will certainly take another listen to the Gilels recording. At the time I completed my preliminary rankings, which was in July 2008, I had only one Michelangeli recording of Op 7 and it did not impress me. Now I have two more recordings and am trying for completeness. (I'm still missing the May 6 1970 recording of Op 7.)
                  >
                  > Third, concerning Paul Badura-Skoda and Sviatoslav Richter, I have come to the personal conclusion that Badura-Skoda is an greatly under-appreciated pianist. I am impressed by his Beethoven set from the 1970's (not the fortepiano version released more recently). I am a big Richter fan, but there are times that he makes interpretative decisions that puzzle me. His slow tempo in the third movement of Op 7 is one of those decisions that puzzle me.
                  >
                  > Fourth, I agree completely that a recording needs to come across as a coherent unit. That is why I have insisted on always doing a head-to-head comparison by playing one entire recording followed by another entire recording. It is always the total effect of one recording that must be compared to the total effect of another recording.
                  >
                  > How do we compare two recordings when one recording is better in movements 1, 2 and 4, but worse in movement 3? The answer is always by comparing the total effect.
                  >
                  > I have always tried to listen sympathetically to an artist's conception of a piece of music. Even where they make choices that bother me, I still must make the effort to appreciate what they are trying to do. In the end, though, the listener must make an evaluation of the effect made by the overall recording. Is the recording coherent? Does it communicate?
                  >
                  > The great danger, and I have wrestled with it constantly, is the competition syndrome. You know, where in a piano competition the judges start listening to the notes rather than the music. As a pianist myself, that is always a major danger. I try to do my best to avoid it, but it's always there!
                  >
                  > I hope I don't try to tell Van Gogh how to paint, or tell great pianists how to play. I try to analyze why a particular recording communicates more to me than another particular recording. My perspective, I hope, is always the perspective of a listener -- a knowledgeable listener who loves great music.
                  >
                  > Dick Mathisen
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Karl-Heinz Isleif
                  > To: beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:57 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello Richard,
                  >
                  >
                  > I have the Richter, Gilels and Michelangeli recordings of this sonata.
                  > But I am prejudiced, as you surely know by now; unless I hear the same
                  > sonata on radio by someone else and it makes me automatically stop
                  > what I am doing and listen, I don't feel the need to buy additional versions.
                  >
                  >
                  > I for one find it very hard to take part in a discussion where a Paul Badura-Skoda
                  > is ranked above Richter in any piece (and Gilels not even listed).
                  >
                  >
                  > Perhaps more importantly:
                  > In order to impress me, a piano sonata, or any piece of good music, has to
                  > come across as a coherent unit. All the tones, from the first to the last, have to
                  > sound as if they belong to the same greater plan, leading to some same goal.
                  > Telling a coherent story, painting a complete picture, that is. Any disturbance
                  > of that sense of unity is harmful.
                  >
                  >
                  > Disturbance can be caused by inappropriate loudness, by inappropriate partial
                  > speed (e.g.,rubato) inappropriate total speed, by inappropriate relative speed
                  > from one scene to another, by inappropriate stress or the lack of it, by inappropriate
                  > shortcuts (`correcting' the composer!) or by a totally wrong conception of what
                  > led the composer to write it the way he did. And so on. All these things get their
                  > meaning only in respect to the whole picture. Judging a sonata by criticizing a
                  > performance on grounds of `the second set has to be allegro, and he played it too
                  > fast...' or so, without regard to the whole picture sounds a lot like telling Van Gogh
                  > he should have used more yellow or pink in this or that painting.
                  >
                  >
                  > Most of the top level pianists have more than sufficient technical ability to play
                  > the most difficult stuff. What they don't necessarily all have, because it can't be
                  > acquired through practice or at school, is musicality. The ones that do have this
                  > asset are the ones who can paint the whole picture, no matter how fast or how
                  > slow they might be playing it. When you listen to them, and listen for the pleasure
                  > of music and not for purpose of dismantling it, you don't discuss single mistakes
                  > any more.
                  > Not only because words will always be short of what the real impression in a
                  > person's head is. And not only because Art as such is burdened with that sort
                  > of shortcoming, i.e., that it does not avail itself to analytical explanation.
                  > But mainly because you don't hear them anymore.
                  > Karl
                  >
                  >
                  > On 13.03.2009, at 09:04, Richard Mathisen wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I want to encourage members of this group to comment on their own favorite recordings of Op 7. Even if you have only two recordings of Op 7, feel free to compare the two of them to each other. If you have more, that's even better!
                  >
                  > I'm very pleased with the discussion of the first three sonatas (Op 2-1, 2-2 and 2-3). You have pointed me to many other top-quality recordings in addition to the ones I originally listed. I'm grateful for all of those recommendations!
                  >
                  > Of course, I've also been a bit overwhelmed in purchasing and otherwise receiving many new recordings of these Beethoven sonatas. I'm trying to absorb all the new information and recordings. I'm also trying to get my paperwork under better control.
                  >
                  > I wonder if we should speed up the pace a little. Does it make sense to consider more than one sonata at a time? Or should we stay with one sonata at a time? Feel free to respond publicly in this group.
                  >
                  > Finally, I'm trying to learn how to place numbers in columns in Yahoo. (I'm referring to my data on tempos as measured by a metronome.) If anyone has any knowledge about columns, I'd love to hear from you off-line!
                  >
                  > The following few lines are simply an experiment in columns.
                  >
                  > Pianist X 100 100 100 100 (100)
                  > Pianist Y 96 96 96 96 (96)
                  > Pianist Z 096 096 096 096 (096)
                  >
                  > Regards!
                  >
                  > Dick Mathisen
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Richard Mathisen
                  > To: beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:01 AM
                  > Subject: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Preliminary Rankings:
                  > Recordings of Beethoven Sonata #4, Op 7
                  >
                  > Op 7
                  >
                  > 01 Annie Fischer
                  > 02 Sviatoslav Richter Studio
                  > 03 Paul Badura-Skoda (1)
                  > 04 Claude Frank
                  > 05 Sviatoslav Richter Moscow 1975
                  > 06 Richard Goode
                  > 07 Vladimir Ashkenazy
                  > 08 Jeno Jando
                  > 09 Daniel Barenboim (2)
                  > 10 Craig Sheppard
                  > 11 Wilhelm Kempff (2)
                  > 12 Stephen Kovacevich
                  > 13 Seymour Lipkin
                  > 14 Alfredo Perl
                  > 15 Bernard Roberts
                  >
                  >
                  > Recordings Considered: Anda (7-14-28), Arrau (1962-66)(ALL), 1949 (21+26), (1984-94)(1-2-8-16-21-22-24-25-26-30), Ashkenazy (1974-80)(ALL), Ashkenazy (1988-91)(14-21-23-28-30-31-32), Backhaus1 (ALL), Backhaus2 (ALL), Backhaus Carnegie (8-14-17-25-26-29-32), Backhaus Salzburg (12-14-17-26), Badura-Skoda1 (1970's) (ALL), Barenboim1 (ALL), Barenboim2 (ALL), Barenboim3 (ALL), Berman (23), Brendel1 (ALL), Brendel2 (ALL), Brendel3 (ALL), Brendel Live (24+29), Buchbinder (ALL), Casadesus (2-14-23-24-26-28), Ciani (ALL), Cliburn (8-14-23-26), DeLarrocha (15), Douglas (29), Egorov (28), Eschenbach (29-30-31-32), Feltsman (30-31-32), Firkusny (8-14-21-30), Annie Fischer (ALL), Francois (8-14-23), Frank (ALL), Freire (14-21-26-31), Gelber (3-5-8-20), Gieseking 1949-50 (ALL except 4-5-7-20-22), 1951 (21+23), 1955-56 (1 to 14, 17-18-19-20-30-31), Gilels (ALL except 1-9-22-24-32), Gilels Live 1969 (14), 1984 (29), Goldsmith (5-17-21-31), Goode (ALL), Grimaud (28-30-31), Gulda1 (ALL), Gulda2 (ALL), Hamelin (30-31-32), Haskil 1955 (17-18), 1960 (17-18), Salzburg (18), Pristine (18), "Hatto" (ALL), Heidsieck (ALL), Hewitt (3-4-7-8-15-23), Horowitz 1946 (14), 1956-59 (7-14-21-23), 1963?-1972 (8-14-21-23-28), Horszowski 1977 (2-5-10-30), 19xx? (30-31-32), Jando (ALL), Kempff1 (ALL), Kempff2 (ALL), Kissin (14), Klien (8-14-23), Kovacevich (ALL), Kraus (21+30), Kuerti (ALL), Laredo (3-20-23-26), Lewis (ALL), Lill (ALL), Lipkin (ALL), Lortie (ALL except 22-23-24-25-27-30-31-32), Lupu (8-14-21), Michelangeli 1981 (11-12), 1990 (32), Morovec (8-14-23-26-27), Nat (ALL), Nikolayeva (ALL), Novaes (17-21-26), O'Conor (ALL), Ogdon (8-14-23), Ohlsson (2-3-4-8-9-10-12-14-15-21-24-25-26-27-28-32), Oland (ALL), Oppitz (ALL), Ortiz (8-14-17-21), Paik (16 to 26), Perahia (1-2-3-7-17-18-23-26-28), Perl (ALL), Pires 1973 (8-14-17-23), 2001 (13-14-30), Pletnev (32), Pollini studio (ALL except 4-9-10-16-18-19-20), Pollini live (21-23-24), Richter studio (1-3-4-7-8-9-10-11-12-17-19-20-22-23-27), Richter live Prague (3-7-12-17-18-23-27-28-29-31), Moscow (3-4-8-17-18-23-27-28-30-31-32), Carnegie (3-7-9-12-17-18-22-23-27-29-31), Bucharest (7-12), Polling (6-7-17-18), Paris (6-7-17-18), Helsinki (7), Aldeburgh (3+29), Ohrid (28+30), Tokyo (31-32), Leipzig (30-31-32), London (11+29), Brooklyn (18), Munich (10+12), Rellingen (32), Kreuth (11), Amsterdam (19-20-22-23), Ludwigsberg (30-31-32), Roberts (ALL), Rosen (27-28-29-30-31-32), Rubinstein 1954 (8-18-21-23), 1962-63 (3-8-14-23-26), 1975 (18), Sandorskaya (29), Schiff (1 to 21), Schnabel (ALL), Serkin (1945-60) (8-14-21-23-24-30-31), (1962-80)(1-6-8-11-12-13-14-16-21-23-24-26-28-29-30-31-32), live (1987) (30-31-32), Sheppard (ALL), Solomon (1-3-7-8-13-14-17-18-21-22-23-26-27-28-29-30-31-32), Taub (5-6-7-8-16-28), Uchida (30-31-32), Vogel (29+32), Watts (13-14-23), Wild (7-8-14-18-23-29)
                  >
                • Richard Mathisen
                  Karl, According to Trovar, there are only two recordings of Richter playing Op 7 -- a studio recording and a live recording. Both of them are from 1975. The
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 14, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Karl,
                     
                    According to Trovar, there are only two recordings of Richter playing Op 7 -- a studio recording and a live recording. Both of them are from 1975. The Olympia OCD 336 and the Japanese JVC VDC-1084 you have are the studio recording, made April 3-14, 1975 in Vienna. The Brilliant Classics 92229/2 you have is the live recording, made January 12, 1975 in Moscow.
                     
                    The Richter recordings are a particularly good example of how tastes differ. You say you love the drama Richter develops in the third movement. To me, Richter's third movement is the major flaw in an otherwise wonderful recording. So, we both react strongly to Richter's third movement, but we have almost diametrically opposite reactions!
                     
                    When I have a chance to do some tempos for recordings of Op 7, I'm sure they will show that Richter takes the Trio of the third movement substantially slower than other pianists. It is that slow tempo in the Trio that is the sticking point for me in the Richter recording. You will notice that I rate the live recording lower than the studio recording. To me, the main difference between the studio recording and the live recording is the tempo of the Trio -- the live recording takes the Trio even *slower* than the studio version. Beethoven's tempo marking is "Allegro," without any different tempo for the Trio (although the Trio is marked "Minore").
                     
                    I find it interesting that in three successive Beethoven sonatas, Richter takes a substantially slower tempo in the third movement than most other pianists. My reaction in each case has been negative, in Op 2-1, Op 2-3, and now in Op 7. I wonder if anyone has information on Richter's choice of tempos for triple meter movements?
                     
                    There are actually two separate issues here. One is the tempo chosen. The other is the decision to use a different tempo for the Trio than for the rest of the third movement. In Op 2-3, Richter speeds up for the Trio, while here in Op 7, Richter slows down for the Trio. My understanding has been that in music of this period, the Trio should generally be taken at the same tempo as the rest of the movement
                     
                    Of course, Richter is noted for being unafraid to change tempo, even in the middle of a movement. The first movement of his Appassionata or the last movement of his Pathetique are examples. A lot depends on how a specific listener reactions to a specific instance. Richter can make some of his unconventional choices sound "right" to me, while others are not convincing to me.
                     
                    Dick Mathisen
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 1:36 AM
                    Subject: [beethovensonatas] Re: Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7



                    Thanks for your remarks, Richard. Taste is a strange thing! A friend
                    of mine thinks Backhaus is the greatest and I can stand none of this
                    pianist's Beethoven.

                    The three discs I have of the sonata Op.7 by Richter are probably
                    all from the same recording (will have to listen again to make sure),
                    all state 1975, but the dates given differ: Olympia OCD 336; Brilliant
                    Classics 92229/2, and the Japanese JVC VDC-1084.

                    The drama he develops in the third movement sounds particularly
                    beautiful to my ears - how can anyone not like it?!

                    I agree with you on the Michelangeli (for that piece at least ...). It is
                    the 3rd disc in the DG set 469 820-2, recorded 1971 in Munich.
                    For me, he emphasizes the wrong spots and too much so that my
                    ears get a distorted picture.

                    Unfortunately, presently I'm not where all my discs are, so I cannot
                    verify the Gilels version, recorded 1981 in Berlin. In any case, most
                    everything on this studio-set DG 453 221-2 is of utmost beauty and
                    hard to be equalled, let alone surpassed, by anybody.

                    Karl

                    --- In beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com, "Richard Mathisen" <richard.mathisen@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Karl,
                    >
                    > Thank you for your comments about comparing recordings! I agree with most of your comments.
                    >
                    > First, my rankings represent my personal "favorites." They have no inherent validity for anyone else. Your favorites will be different. Each of us will have our own favorite recording (or recordings) of any given piece of music.
                    >
                    > Second, thank you for recommending the Gilels and Michelangeli recordings of Op 7. I will certainly take another listen to the Gilels recording. At the time I completed my preliminary rankings, which was in July 2008, I had only one Michelangeli recording of Op 7 and it did not impress me. Now I have two more recordings and am trying for completeness. (I'm still missing the May 6 1970 recording of Op 7.)
                    >
                    > Third, concerning Paul Badura-Skoda and Sviatoslav Richter, I have come to the personal conclusion that Badura-Skoda is an greatly under-appreciated pianist. I am impressed by his Beethoven set from the 1970's (not the fortepiano version released more recently). I am a big Richter fan, but there are times that he makes interpretative decisions that puzzle me. His slow tempo in the third movement of Op 7 is one of those decisions that puzzle me.
                    >
                    > Fourth, I agree completely that a recording needs to come across as a coherent unit. That is why I have insisted on always doing a head-to-head comparison by playing one entire recording followed by another entire recording. It is always the total effect of one recording that must be compared to the total effect of another recording.
                    >
                    > How do we compare two recordings when one recording is better in movements 1, 2 and 4, but worse in movement 3? The answer is always by comparing the total effect.
                    >
                    > I have always tried to listen sympathetically to an artist's conception of a piece of music. Even where they make choices that bother me, I still must make the effort to appreciate what they are trying to do. In the end, though, the listener must make an evaluation of the effect made by the overall recording. Is the recording coherent? Does it communicate?
                    >
                    > The great danger, and I have wrestled with it constantly, is the competition syndrome. You know, where in a piano competition the judges start listening to the notes rather than the music. As a pianist myself, that is always a major danger. I try to do my best to avoid it, but it's always there!
                    >
                    > I hope I don't try to tell Van Gogh how to paint, or tell great pianists how to play. I try to analyze why a particular recording communicates more to me than another particular recording. My perspective, I hope, is always the perspective of a listener -- a knowledgeable listener who loves great music.
                    >
                    > Dick Mathisen
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Karl-Heinz Isleif
                    > To: beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:57 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello Richard,
                    >
                    >
                    > I have the Richter, Gilels and Michelangeli recordings of this sonata.
                    > But I am prejudiced, as you surely know by now; unless I hear the same
                    > sonata on radio by someone else and it makes me automatically stop
                    > what I am doing and listen, I don't feel the need to buy additional versions.
                    >
                    >
                    > I for one find it very hard to take part in a discussion where a Paul Badura-Skoda
                    > is ranked above Richter in any piece (and Gilels not even listed).
                    >
                    >
                    > Perhaps more importantly:
                    > In order to impress me, a piano sonata, or any piece of good music, has to
                    > come across as a coherent unit. All the tones, from the first to the last, have to
                    > sound as if they belong to the same greater plan, leading to some same goal.
                    > Telling a coherent story, painting a complete picture, that is. Any disturbance
                    > of that sense of unity is harmful.
                    >
                    >
                    > Disturbance can be caused by inappropriate loudness, by inappropriate partial
                    > speed (e.g.,rubato) inappropriate total speed, by inappropriate relative speed
                    > from one scene to another, by inappropriate stress or the lack of it, by inappropriate
                    > shortcuts (`correcting' the composer!) or by a totally wrong conception of what
                    > led the composer to write it the way he did. And so on. All these things get their
                    > meaning only in respect to the whole picture. Judging a sonata by criticizing a
                    > performance on grounds of `the second set has to be allegro, and he played it too
                    > fast...' or so, without regard to the whole picture sounds a lot like telling Van Gogh
                    > he should have used more yellow or pink in this or that painting.
                    >
                    >
                    > Most of the top level pianists have more than sufficient technical ability to play
                    > the most difficult stuff. What they don't necessarily all have, because it can't be
                    > acquired through practice or at school, is musicality. The ones that do have this
                    > asset are the ones who can paint the whole picture, no matter how fast or how
                    > slow they might be playing it. When you listen to them, and listen for the pleasure
                    > of music and not for purpose of dismantling it, you don't discuss single mistakes
                    > any more.
                    > Not only because words will always be short of what the real impression in a
                    > person's head is. And not only because Art as such is burdened with that sort
                    > of shortcoming, i.e., that it does not avail itself to analytical explanation.
                    > But mainly because you don't hear them anymore.
                    > Karl
                    >
                    >
                    > On 13.03.2009, at 09:04, Richard Mathisen wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I want to encourage members of this group to comment on their own favorite recordings of Op 7. Even if you have only two recordings of Op 7, feel free to compare the two of them to each other. If you have more, that's even better!
                    >
                    > I'm very pleased with the discussion of the first three sonatas (Op 2-1, 2-2 and 2-3). You have pointed me to many other top-quality recordings in addition to the ones I originally listed. I'm grateful for all of those recommendations!
                    >
                    > Of course, I've also been a bit overwhelmed in purchasing and otherwise receiving many new recordings of these Beethoven sonatas. I'm trying to absorb all the new information and recordings. I'm also trying to get my paperwork under better control.
                    >
                    > I wonder if we should speed up the pace a little. Does it make sense to consider more than one sonata at a time? Or should we stay with one sonata at a time? Feel free to respond publicly in this group.
                    >
                    > Finally, I'm trying to learn how to place numbers in columns in Yahoo. (I'm referring to my data on tempos as measured by a metronome.) If anyone has any knowledge about columns, I'd love to hear from you off-line!
                    >
                    > The following few lines are simply an experiment in columns.
                    >
                    > Pianist X 100 100 100 100 (100)
                    > Pianist Y 96 96 96 96 (96)
                    > Pianist Z 096 096 096 096 (096)
                    >
                    > Regards!
                    >
                    > Dick Mathisen
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Richard Mathisen
                    > To: beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:01 AM
                    > Subject: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Preliminary Rankings:
                    > Recordings of Beethoven Sonata #4, Op 7
                    >
                    > Op 7
                    >
                    > 01 Annie Fischer
                    > 02 Sviatoslav Richter Studio
                    > 03 Paul Badura-Skoda (1)
                    > 04 Claude Frank
                    > 05 Sviatoslav Richter Moscow 1975
                    > 06 Richard Goode
                    > 07 Vladimir Ashkenazy
                    > 08 Jeno Jando
                    > 09 Daniel Barenboim (2)
                    > 10 Craig Sheppard
                    > 11 Wilhelm Kempff (2)
                    > 12 Stephen Kovacevich
                    > 13 Seymour Lipkin
                    > 14 Alfredo Perl
                    > 15 Bernard Roberts
                    >
                    >
                    > Recordings Considered: Anda (7-14-28), Arrau (1962-66)(ALL) , 1949 (21+26), (1984-94)(1- 2-8-16-21- 22-24-25- 26-30), Ashkenazy (1974-80)(ALL) , Ashkenazy (1988-91)(14- 21-23-28- 30-31-32) , Backhaus1 (ALL), Backhaus2 (ALL), Backhaus Carnegie (8-14-17-25- 26-29-32) , Backhaus Salzburg (12-14-17-26) , Badura-Skoda1 (1970's) (ALL), Barenboim1 (ALL), Barenboim2 (ALL), Barenboim3 (ALL), Berman (23), Brendel1 (ALL), Brendel2 (ALL), Brendel3 (ALL), Brendel Live (24+29), Buchbinder (ALL), Casadesus (2-14-23-24- 26-28), Ciani (ALL), Cliburn (8-14-23-26) , DeLarrocha (15), Douglas (29), Egorov (28), Eschenbach (29-30-31-32) , Feltsman (30-31-32), Firkusny (8-14-21-30) , Annie Fischer (ALL), Francois (8-14-23), Frank (ALL), Freire (14-21-26-31) , Gelber (3-5-8-20), Gieseking 1949-50 (ALL except 4-5-7-20-22) , 1951 (21+23), 1955-56 (1 to 14, 17-18-19-20- 30-31), Gilels (ALL except 1-9-22-24-32) , Gilels Live 1969 (14), 1984 (29), Goldsmith (5-17-21-31) , Goode (ALL), Grimaud (28-30-31), Gulda1 (ALL), Gulda2 (ALL), Hamelin (30-31-32), Haskil 1955 (17-18), 1960 (17-18), Salzburg (18), Pristine (18), "Hatto" (ALL), Heidsieck (ALL), Hewitt (3-4-7-8-15- 23), Horowitz 1946 (14), 1956-59 (7-14-21-23) , 1963?-1972 (8-14-21-23- 28), Horszowski 1977 (2-5-10-30), 19xx? (30-31-32), Jando (ALL), Kempff1 (ALL), Kempff2 (ALL), Kissin (14), Klien (8-14-23), Kovacevich (ALL), Kraus (21+30), Kuerti (ALL), Laredo (3-20-23-26) , Lewis (ALL), Lill (ALL), Lipkin (ALL), Lortie (ALL except 22-23-24-25- 27-30-31- 32), Lupu (8-14-21), Michelangeli 1981 (11-12), 1990 (32), Morovec (8-14-23-26- 27), Nat (ALL), Nikolayeva (ALL), Novaes (17-21-26), O'Conor (ALL), Ogdon (8-14-23), Ohlsson (2-3-4-8-9-10- 12-14-15- 21-24-25- 26-27-28- 32), Oland (ALL), Oppitz (ALL), Ortiz (8-14-17-21) , Paik (16 to 26), Perahia (1-2-3-7-17- 18-23-26- 28), Perl (ALL), Pires 1973 (8-14-17-23) , 2001 ( 13-14-30), Pletnev (32), Pollini studio (ALL except 4-9-10-16-18- 19-20), Pollini live (21-23-24), Richter studio (1-3-4-7-8-9- 10-11-12- 17-19-20- 22-23-27) , Richter live Prague (3-7-12-17-18- 23-27-28- 29-31), Moscow (3-4-8-17-18- 23-27-28- 30-31-32) , Carnegie (3-7-9-12-17- 18-22-23- 27-29-31) , Bucharest (7-12), Polling (6-7-17-18), Paris (6-7-17-18), Helsinki (7), Aldeburgh (3+29), Ohrid (28+30), Tokyo (31-32), Leipzig (30-31-32), London (11+29), Brooklyn (18), Munich (10+12), Rellingen (32), Kreuth (11), Amsterdam (19-20-22-23) , Ludwigsberg (30-31-32), Roberts (ALL), Rosen (27-28-29-30- 31-32), Rubinstein 1954 (8-18-21-23) , 1962-63 (3-8-14-23-26) , 1975 (18), Sandorskaya (29), Schiff (1 to 21), Schnabel (ALL), Serkin (1945-60) (8-14-21-23- 24-30-31) , (1962-80)(1- 6-8-11-12- 13-14-16- 21-23-24- 26-28-29- 30-31-32) , live (1987) (30-31-32), Sheppard (ALL), Solomon (1-3-7-8-13- 14-17-18- 21-22-23- 26-27-28- 29-30-31- 32), Taub (5-6-7-8-16- 28), Uchida (30-31-32), Vogel (29+32), Watts (13-14-23), Wild (7-8-14-18-23- 29)
                    >

                  • klavierneuling
                    Hi Richard, I found another copy of the Gilels recording. I listened to it and find it very good. Here are the times for the third movement as given in the
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 14, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Richard,
                      I found another copy of the Gilels recording. I listened to it and find it
                      very good.

                      Here are the times for the third movement as given
                      in the respective booklets :

                      Richter, JVC, VDC-1084: 5:32
                      Richter, Brillant 92229/2: 5:27
                      Richter, Olympia OCD 336 5:31
                      Michelangeli DG 469 820-2: 5:25
                      Gilels, DG 453 221-2: 5:51

                      which means Richter is considerably faster than Gilels and almost even
                      with Michelangeli.

                      As I said before, these times have no meaning to me at all. After all, music
                      is not part of track and field! I am posting them only to show that maybe
                      you're doing Richter injustice here! Apparently other pianists are playing
                      the same parts as slowly and some even slower. (If we were discussing
                      Schubert sonatas you'd probably be even more upset, because he plays
                      some of them incredibly slowly - and beautifully.)
                      Karl

                      --- In beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mathisen" <richard.mathisen@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Karl,
                      >
                      > According to Trovar, there are only two recordings of Richter playing Op 7 -- a studio recording and a live recording. Both of them are from 1975. The Olympia OCD 336 and the Japanese JVC VDC-1084 you have are the studio recording, made April 3-14, 1975 in Vienna. The Brilliant Classics 92229/2 you have is the live recording, made January 12, 1975 in Moscow.
                      >
                      > The Richter recordings are a particularly good example of how tastes differ. You say you love the drama Richter develops in the third movement. To me, Richter's third movement is the major flaw in an otherwise wonderful recording. So, we both react strongly to Richter's third movement, but we have almost diametrically opposite reactions!
                      >
                      > When I have a chance to do some tempos for recordings of Op 7, I'm sure they will show that Richter takes the Trio of the third movement substantially slower than other pianists. It is that slow tempo in the Trio that is the sticking point for me in the Richter recording. You will notice that I rate the live recording lower than the studio recording. To me, the main difference between the studio recording and the live recording is the tempo of the Trio -- the live recording takes the Trio even *slower* than the studio version. Beethoven's tempo marking is "Allegro," without any different tempo for the Trio (although the Trio is marked "Minore").
                      >
                      > I find it interesting that in three successive Beethoven sonatas, Richter takes a substantially slower tempo in the third movement than most other pianists. My reaction in each case has been negative, in Op 2-1, Op 2-3, and now in Op 7. I wonder if anyone has information on Richter's choice of tempos for triple meter movements?
                      >
                      > There are actually two separate issues here. One is the tempo chosen. The other is the decision to use a different tempo for the Trio than for the rest of the third movement. In Op 2-3, Richter speeds up for the Trio, while here in Op 7, Richter slows down for the Trio. My understanding has been that in music of this period, the Trio should generally be taken at the same tempo as the rest of the movement
                      >
                      > Of course, Richter is noted for being unafraid to change tempo, even in the middle of a movement. The first movement of his Appassionata or the last movement of his Pathetique are examples. A lot depends on how a specific listener reactions to a specific instance. Richter can make some of his unconventional choices sound "right" to me, while others are not convincing to me.
                      >
                      > Dick Mathisen
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: klavierneuling
                      > To: beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 1:36 AM
                      > Subject: [beethovensonatas] Re: Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Thanks for your remarks, Richard. Taste is a strange thing! A friend
                      > of mine thinks Backhaus is the greatest and I can stand none of this
                      > pianist's Beethoven.
                      >
                      > The three discs I have of the sonata Op.7 by Richter are probably
                      > all from the same recording (will have to listen again to make sure),
                      > all state 1975, but the dates given differ: Olympia OCD 336; Brilliant
                      > Classics 92229/2, and the Japanese JVC VDC-1084.
                      >
                      > The drama he develops in the third movement sounds particularly
                      > beautiful to my ears - how can anyone not like it?!
                      >
                      > I agree with you on the Michelangeli (for that piece at least ...). It is
                      > the 3rd disc in the DG set 469 820-2, recorded 1971 in Munich.
                      > For me, he emphasizes the wrong spots and too much so that my
                      > ears get a distorted picture.
                      >
                      > Unfortunately, presently I'm not where all my discs are, so I cannot
                      > verify the Gilels version, recorded 1981 in Berlin. In any case, most
                      > everything on this studio-set DG 453 221-2 is of utmost beauty and
                      > hard to be equalled, let alone surpassed, by anybody.
                      >
                      > Karl
                      >
                      > --- In beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mathisen" <richard.mathisen@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Karl,
                      > >
                      > > Thank you for your comments about comparing recordings! I agree with most of your comments.
                      > >
                      > > First, my rankings represent my personal "favorites." They have no inherent validity for anyone else. Your favorites will be different. Each of us will have our own favorite recording (or recordings) of any given piece of music.
                      > >
                      > > Second, thank you for recommending the Gilels and Michelangeli recordings of Op 7. I will certainly take another listen to the Gilels recording. At the time I completed my preliminary rankings, which was in July 2008, I had only one Michelangeli recording of Op 7 and it did not impress me. Now I have two more recordings and am trying for completeness. (I'm still missing the May 6 1970 recording of Op 7.)
                      > >
                      > > Third, concerning Paul Badura-Skoda and Sviatoslav Richter, I have come to the personal conclusion that Badura-Skoda is an greatly under-appreciated pianist. I am impressed by his Beethoven set from the 1970's (not the fortepiano version released more recently). I am a big Richter fan, but there are times that he makes interpretative decisions that puzzle me. His slow tempo in the third movement of Op 7 is one of those decisions that puzzle me.
                      > >
                      > > Fourth, I agree completely that a recording needs to come across as a coherent unit. That is why I have insisted on always doing a head-to-head comparison by playing one entire recording followed by another entire recording. It is always the total effect of one recording that must be compared to the total effect of another recording.
                      > >
                      > > How do we compare two recordings when one recording is better in movements 1, 2 and 4, but worse in movement 3? The answer is always by comparing the total effect.
                      > >
                      > > I have always tried to listen sympathetically to an artist's conception of a piece of music. Even where they make choices that bother me, I still must make the effort to appreciate what they are trying to do. In the end, though, the listener must make an evaluation of the effect made by the overall recording. Is the recording coherent? Does it communicate?
                      > >
                      > > The great danger, and I have wrestled with it constantly, is the competition syndrome. You know, where in a piano competition the judges start listening to the notes rather than the music. As a pianist myself, that is always a major danger. I try to do my best to avoid it, but it's always there!
                      > >
                      > > I hope I don't try to tell Van Gogh how to paint, or tell great pianists how to play. I try to analyze why a particular recording communicates more to me than another particular recording. My perspective, I hope, is always the perspective of a listener -- a knowledgeable listener who loves great music.
                      > >
                      > > Dick Mathisen
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: Karl-Heinz Isleif
                      > > To: beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:57 PM
                      > > Subject: Re: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hello Richard,
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I have the Richter, Gilels and Michelangeli recordings of this sonata.
                      > > But I am prejudiced, as you surely know by now; unless I hear the same
                      > > sonata on radio by someone else and it makes me automatically stop
                      > > what I am doing and listen, I don't feel the need to buy additional versions.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I for one find it very hard to take part in a discussion where a Paul Badura-Skoda
                      > > is ranked above Richter in any piece (and Gilels not even listed).
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Perhaps more importantly:
                      > > In order to impress me, a piano sonata, or any piece of good music, has to
                      > > come across as a coherent unit. All the tones, from the first to the last, have to
                      > > sound as if they belong to the same greater plan, leading to some same goal.
                      > > Telling a coherent story, painting a complete picture, that is. Any disturbance
                      > > of that sense of unity is harmful.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Disturbance can be caused by inappropriate loudness, by inappropriate partial
                      > > speed (e.g.,rubato) inappropriate total speed, by inappropriate relative speed
                      > > from one scene to another, by inappropriate stress or the lack of it, by inappropriate
                      > > shortcuts (`correcting' the composer!) or by a totally wrong conception of what
                      > > led the composer to write it the way he did. And so on. All these things get their
                      > > meaning only in respect to the whole picture. Judging a sonata by criticizing a
                      > > performance on grounds of `the second set has to be allegro, and he played it too
                      > > fast...' or so, without regard to the whole picture sounds a lot like telling Van Gogh
                      > > he should have used more yellow or pink in this or that painting.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Most of the top level pianists have more than sufficient technical ability to play
                      > > the most difficult stuff. What they don't necessarily all have, because it can't be
                      > > acquired through practice or at school, is musicality. The ones that do have this
                      > > asset are the ones who can paint the whole picture, no matter how fast or how
                      > > slow they might be playing it. When you listen to them, and listen for the pleasure
                      > > of music and not for purpose of dismantling it, you don't discuss single mistakes
                      > > any more.
                      > > Not only because words will always be short of what the real impression in a
                      > > person's head is. And not only because Art as such is burdened with that sort
                      > > of shortcoming, i.e., that it does not avail itself to analytical explanation.
                      > > But mainly because you don't hear them anymore.
                      > > Karl
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On 13.03.2009, at 09:04, Richard Mathisen wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I want to encourage members of this group to comment on their own favorite recordings of Op 7. Even if you have only two recordings of Op 7, feel free to compare the two of them to each other. If you have more, that's even better!
                      > >
                      > > I'm very pleased with the discussion of the first three sonatas (Op 2-1, 2-2 and 2-3). You have pointed me to many other top-quality recordings in addition to the ones I originally listed. I'm grateful for all of those recommendations!
                      > >
                      > > Of course, I've also been a bit overwhelmed in purchasing and otherwise receiving many new recordings of these Beethoven sonatas. I'm trying to absorb all the new information and recordings. I'm also trying to get my paperwork under better control.
                      > >
                      > > I wonder if we should speed up the pace a little. Does it make sense to consider more than one sonata at a time? Or should we stay with one sonata at a time? Feel free to respond publicly in this group.
                      > >
                      > > Finally, I'm trying to learn how to place numbers in columns in Yahoo. (I'm referring to my data on tempos as measured by a metronome.) If anyone has any knowledge about columns, I'd love to hear from you off-line!
                      > >
                      > > The following few lines are simply an experiment in columns.
                      > >
                      > > Pianist X 100 100 100 100 (100)
                      > > Pianist Y 96 96 96 96 (96)
                      > > Pianist Z 096 096 096 096 (096)
                      > >
                      > > Regards!
                      > >
                      > > Dick Mathisen
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: Richard Mathisen
                      > > To: beethovensonatas@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:01 AM
                      > > Subject: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Preliminary Rankings:
                      > > Recordings of Beethoven Sonata #4, Op 7
                      > >
                      > > Op 7
                      > >
                      > > 01 Annie Fischer
                      > > 02 Sviatoslav Richter Studio
                      > > 03 Paul Badura-Skoda (1)
                      > > 04 Claude Frank
                      > > 05 Sviatoslav Richter Moscow 1975
                      > > 06 Richard Goode
                      > > 07 Vladimir Ashkenazy
                      > > 08 Jeno Jando
                      > > 09 Daniel Barenboim (2)
                      > > 10 Craig Sheppard
                      > > 11 Wilhelm Kempff (2)
                      > > 12 Stephen Kovacevich
                      > > 13 Seymour Lipkin
                      > > 14 Alfredo Perl
                      > > 15 Bernard Roberts
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Recordings Considered: Anda (7-14-28), Arrau (1962-66)(ALL), 1949 (21+26), (1984-94)(1-2-8-16-21-22-24-25-26-30), Ashkenazy (1974-80)(ALL), Ashkenazy (1988-91)(14-21-23-28-30-31-32), Backhaus1 (ALL), Backhaus2 (ALL), Backhaus Carnegie (8-14-17-25-26-29-32), Backhaus Salzburg (12-14-17-26), Badura-Skoda1 (1970's) (ALL), Barenboim1 (ALL), Barenboim2 (ALL), Barenboim3 (ALL), Berman (23), Brendel1 (ALL), Brendel2 (ALL), Brendel3 (ALL), Brendel Live (24+29), Buchbinder (ALL), Casadesus (2-14-23-24-26-28), Ciani (ALL), Cliburn (8-14-23-26), DeLarrocha (15), Douglas (29), Egorov (28), Eschenbach (29-30-31-32), Feltsman (30-31-32), Firkusny (8-14-21-30), Annie Fischer (ALL), Francois (8-14-23), Frank (ALL), Freire (14-21-26-31), Gelber (3-5-8-20), Gieseking 1949-50 (ALL except 4-5-7-20-22), 1951 (21+23), 1955-56 (1 to 14, 17-18-19-20-30-31), Gilels (ALL except 1-9-22-24-32), Gilels Live 1969 (14), 1984 (29), Goldsmith (5-17-21-31), Goode (ALL), Grimaud (28-30-31), Gulda1 (ALL), Gulda2 (ALL), Hamelin (30-31-32), Haskil 1955 (17-18), 1960 (17-18), Salzburg (18), Pristine (18), "Hatto" (ALL), Heidsieck (ALL), Hewitt (3-4-7-8-15-23), Horowitz 1946 (14), 1956-59 (7-14-21-23), 1963?-1972 (8-14-21-23-28), Horszowski 1977 (2-5-10-30), 19xx? (30-31-32), Jando (ALL), Kempff1 (ALL), Kempff2 (ALL), Kissin (14), Klien (8-14-23), Kovacevich (ALL), Kraus (21+30), Kuerti (ALL), Laredo (3-20-23-26), Lewis (ALL), Lill (ALL), Lipkin (ALL), Lortie (ALL except 22-23-24-25-27-30-31-32), Lupu (8-14-21), Michelangeli 1981 (11-12), 1990 (32), Morovec (8-14-23-26-27), Nat (ALL), Nikolayeva (ALL), Novaes (17-21-26), O'Conor (ALL), Ogdon (8-14-23), Ohlsson (2-3-4-8-9-10-12-14-15-21-24-25-26-27-28-32), Oland (ALL), Oppitz (ALL), Ortiz (8-14-17-21), Paik (16 to 26), Perahia (1-2-3-7-17-18-23-26-28), Perl (ALL), Pires 1973 (8-14-17-23), 2001 ( 13-14-30), Pletnev (32), Pollini studio (ALL except 4-9-10-16-18-19-20), Pollini live (21-23-24), Richter studio (1-3-4-7-8-9-10-11-12-17-19-20-22-23-27), Richter live Prague (3-7-12-17-18-23-27-28-29-31), Moscow (3-4-8-17-18-23-27-28-30-31-32), Carnegie (3-7-9-12-17-18-22-23-27-29-31), Bucharest (7-12), Polling (6-7-17-18), Paris (6-7-17-18), Helsinki (7), Aldeburgh (3+29), Ohrid (28+30), Tokyo (31-32), Leipzig (30-31-32), London (11+29), Brooklyn (18), Munich (10+12), Rellingen (32), Kreuth (11), Amsterdam (19-20-22-23), Ludwigsberg (30-31-32), Roberts (ALL), Rosen (27-28-29-30-31-32), Rubinstein 1954 (8-18-21-23), 1962-63 (3-8-14-23-26), 1975 (18), Sandorskaya (29), Schiff (1 to 21), Schnabel (ALL), Serkin (1945-60) (8-14-21-23-24-30-31), (1962-80)(1-6-8-11-12-13-14-16-21-23-24-26-28-29-30-31-32), live (1987) (30-31-32), Sheppard (ALL), Solomon (1-3-7-8-13-14-17-18-21-22-23-26-27-28-29-30-31-32), Taub (5-6-7-8-16-28), Uchida (30-31-32), Vogel (29+32), Watts (13-14-23), Wild (7-8-14-18-23-29)
                      > >
                      >
                    • Richard Mathisen
                      Karl, In the third movement of Richter s recording of Op 7, my issue is about his tempo in the Minore or middle section, not his tempo for the first part of
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 14, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Karl,
                         
                        In the third movement of Richter's recording of Op 7, my issue is about his tempo in the "Minore" or middle section, not his tempo for the first part of the movement. Therefore, the overall timings for the third movement don't tell the full story.
                         
                        Here is my estimate of the tempos taken by a number of pianists. The first tempo is the tempo at which they begin the third movement. The second tempo is their tempo for the middle section ("Minore").
                         
                        A. Fischer    76 (76)
                        Gulda 1    76 (72)
                        Gulda 2    76 (76)
                        ABM 1982    76 (76)
                        Barenboim 2    76 (80)
                        Foldes    72 (69)
                        Paik    72 (66)
                        Goode    69 (76)
                        Kempff 1    69 (69)
                        Richter Studio    66 (56)
                        ABM 10/1970    63 (63)
                        Hungerford    63 (69)
                        Gilels    63 (63)
                         
                        Note that no one comes close to Richter in terms of slowness of tempo in the Minore section. Richter is at 56. There is no one at 58 or 60. The next slowest tempo is one early Michelangeli recording and the Gilels, both at 63. Nine of the 13 recordings are at a tempo of 69 or higher in the Minore section, much faster than Richter.
                         
                        This doesn't mean that Richter's tempo is "wrong" in any sense, only that it is substantially slower than the other pianists listed above in that Minore section. Since you like it, it is obviously the "right" tempo for you!
                         
                        I did listen to the Gilels recording of Op 7 as compared to many of the others. The first movement is excellent. The second movement, while very slow, seems to hold together. The third movement, at 63, is just too slow for my taste. The last movement is far too slow for my taste. While almost all other pianists play the last movement at 120 to 138, Gilels takes it at a very slow 100.
                         
                        I agree with you that Gilels' playing is beautiful. His mastery and presentation of all the details is astonishingly good.
                         
                        But, to me, there's another side of the story to keep in mind. What about pulse? What about momentum? What about keeping this sprawling work together? This is a 29 minute work on average, the longest Beethoven sonata other than the Hammerklavier. (It's 32:38 in the Gilels performance.) The audience has been sitting there for 25 minutes when that last movement begins. Gilels plays it slowly and lovingly, lavishing attention on all the details.  For those members of the audience, or listeners, who love details played beautifully, this may be an outstanding performance. However, I suspect quite a few people might be fidgeting in their seats.
                         
                        To me, this is very characteristic of Gilels, both his extraordinary ability to bring out all the detail and play beautifully, as well as his tendency to focus on detail to the exclusion of other aspects.
                         
                        But for those who love this, Gilels is exceptionally good!
                         
                        Dick Mathisen
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 10:26 AM
                        Subject: [beethovensonatas] Re: Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7

                        Hi Richard,
                        I found another copy of the Gilels recording. I listened to it and find it
                        very good.

                        Here are the times for the third movement as given
                        in the respective booklets :

                        Richter, JVC, VDC-1084: 5:32
                        Richter, Brillant 92229/2: 5:27
                        Richter, Olympia OCD 336 5:31
                        Michelangeli DG 469 820-2: 5:25
                        Gilels, DG 453 221-2: 5:51

                        which means Richter is considerably faster than Gilels and almost even
                        with Michelangeli.

                        As I said before, these times have no meaning to me at all. After all, music
                        is not part of track and field! I am posting them only to show that maybe
                        you're doing Richter injustice here! Apparently other pianists are playing
                        the same parts as slowly and some even slower. (If we were discussing
                        Schubert sonatas you'd probably be even more upset, because he plays
                        some of them incredibly slowly - and beautifully. )
                        Karl

                        --- In beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com, "Richard Mathisen" <richard.mathisen@ ...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Karl,
                        >
                        > According to Trovar, there are only two recordings of Richter playing Op 7 -- a studio recording and a live recording. Both of them are from 1975. The Olympia OCD 336 and the Japanese JVC VDC-1084 you have are the studio recording, made April 3-14, 1975 in Vienna. The Brilliant Classics 92229/2 you have is the live recording, made January 12, 1975 in Moscow.
                        >
                        > The Richter recordings are a particularly good example of how tastes differ. You say you love the drama Richter develops in the third movement. To me, Richter's third movement is the major flaw in an otherwise wonderful recording. So, we both react strongly to Richter's third movement, but we have almost diametrically opposite reactions!
                        >
                        > When I have a chance to do some tempos for recordings of Op 7, I'm sure they will show that Richter takes the Trio of the third movement substantially slower than other pianists. It is that slow tempo in the Trio that is the sticking point for me in the Richter recording. You will notice that I rate the live recording lower than the studio recording. To me, the main difference between the studio recording and the live recording is the tempo of the Trio -- the live recording takes the Trio even *slower* than the studio version. Beethoven's tempo marking is "Allegro," without any different tempo for the Trio (although the Trio is marked "Minore").
                        >
                        > I find it interesting that in three successive Beethoven sonatas, Richter takes a substantially slower tempo in the third movement than most other pianists. My reaction in each case has been negative, in Op 2-1, Op 2-3, and now in Op 7. I wonder if anyone has information on Richter's choice of tempos for triple meter movements?
                        >
                        > There are actually two separate issues here. One is the tempo chosen. The other is the decision to use a different tempo for the Trio than for the rest of the third movement. In Op 2-3, Richter speeds up for the Trio, while here in Op 7, Richter slows down for the Trio. My understanding has been that in music of this period, the Trio should generally be taken at the same tempo as the rest of the movement
                        >
                        > Of course, Richter is noted for being unafraid to change tempo, even in the middle of a movement. The first movement of his Appassionata or the last movement of his Pathetique are examples. A lot depends on how a specific listener reactions to a specific instance. Richter can make some of his unconventional choices sound "right" to me, while others are not convincing to me.
                        >
                        > Dick Mathisen
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: klavierneuling
                        > To: beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 1:36 AM
                        > Subject: [beethovensonatas] Re: Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks for your remarks, Richard. Taste is a strange thing! A friend
                        > of mine thinks Backhaus is the greatest and I can stand none of this
                        > pianist's Beethoven.
                        >
                        > The three discs I have of the sonata Op.7 by Richter are probably
                        > all from the same recording (will have to listen again to make sure),
                        > all state 1975, but the dates given differ: Olympia OCD 336; Brilliant
                        > Classics 92229/2, and the Japanese JVC VDC-1084.
                        >
                        > The drama he develops in the third movement sounds particularly
                        > beautiful to my ears - how can anyone not like it?!
                        >
                        > I agree with you on the Michelangeli (for that piece at least ...). It is
                        > the 3rd disc in the DG set 469 820-2, recorded 1971 in Munich.
                        > For me, he emphasizes the wrong spots and too much so that my
                        > ears get a distorted picture.
                        >
                        > Unfortunately, presently I'm not where all my discs are, so I cannot
                        > verify the Gilels version, recorded 1981 in Berlin. In any case, most
                        > everything on this studio-set DG 453 221-2 is of utmost beauty and
                        > hard to be equalled, let alone surpassed, by anybody.
                        >
                        > Karl
                        >
                        > --- In beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com, "Richard Mathisen" <richard.mathisen@ > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Karl,
                        > >
                        > > Thank you for your comments about comparing recordings! I agree with most of your comments.
                        > >
                        > > First, my rankings represent my personal "favorites." They have no inherent validity for anyone else. Your favorites will be different. Each of us will have our own favorite recording (or recordings) of any given piece of music.
                        > >
                        > > Second, thank you for recommending the Gilels and Michelangeli recordings of Op 7. I will certainly take another listen to the Gilels recording. At the time I completed my preliminary rankings, which was in July 2008, I had only one Michelangeli recording of Op 7 and it did not impress me. Now I have two more recordings and am trying for completeness. (I'm still missing the May 6 1970 recording of Op 7.)
                        > >
                        > > Third, concerning Paul Badura-Skoda and Sviatoslav Richter, I have come to the personal conclusion that Badura-Skoda is an greatly under-appreciated pianist. I am impressed by his Beethoven set from the 1970's (not the fortepiano version released more recently). I am a big Richter fan, but there are times that he makes interpretative decisions that puzzle me. His slow tempo in the third movement of Op 7 is one of those decisions that puzzle me.
                        > >
                        > > Fourth, I agree completely that a recording needs to come across as a coherent unit. That is why I have insisted on always doing a head-to-head comparison by playing one entire recording followed by another entire recording. It is always the total effect of one recording that must be compared to the total effect of another recording.
                        > >
                        > > How do we compare two recordings when one recording is better in movements 1, 2 and 4, but worse in movement 3? The answer is always by comparing the total effect.
                        > >
                        > > I have always tried to listen sympathetically to an artist's conception of a piece of music. Even where they make choices that bother me, I still must make the effort to appreciate what they are trying to do. In the end, though, the listener must make an evaluation of the effect made by the overall recording. Is the recording coherent? Does it communicate?
                        > >
                        > > The great danger, and I have wrestled with it constantly, is the competition syndrome. You know, where in a piano competition the judges start listening to the notes rather than the music. As a pianist myself, that is always a major danger. I try to do my best to avoid it, but it's always there!
                        > >
                        > > I hope I don't try to tell Van Gogh how to paint, or tell great pianists how to play. I try to analyze why a particular recording communicates more to me than another particular recording. My perspective, I hope, is always the perspective of a listener -- a knowledgeable listener who loves great music.
                        > >
                        > > Dick Mathisen
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: Karl-Heinz Isleif
                        > > To: beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com
                        > > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:57 PM
                        > > Subject: Re: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hello Richard,
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I have the Richter, Gilels and Michelangeli recordings of this sonata.
                        > > But I am prejudiced, as you surely know by now; unless I hear the same
                        > > sonata on radio by someone else and it makes me automatically stop
                        > > what I am doing and listen, I don't feel the need to buy additional versions.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I for one find it very hard to take part in a discussion where a Paul Badura-Skoda
                        > > is ranked above Richter in any piece (and Gilels not even listed).
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Perhaps more importantly:
                        > > In order to impress me, a piano sonata, or any piece of good music, has to
                        > > come across as a coherent unit. All the tones, from the first to the last, have to
                        > > sound as if they belong to the same greater plan, leading to some same goal.
                        > > Telling a coherent story, painting a complete picture, that is. Any disturbance
                        > > of that sense of unity is harmful.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Disturbance can be caused by inappropriate loudness, by inappropriate partial
                        > > speed (e.g.,rubato) inappropriate total speed, by inappropriate relative speed
                        > > from one scene to another, by inappropriate stress or the lack of it, by inappropriate
                        > > shortcuts (`correcting' the composer!) or by a totally wrong conception of what
                        > > led the composer to write it the way he did. And so on. All these things get their
                        > > meaning only in respect to the whole picture. Judging a sonata by criticizing a
                        > > performance on grounds of `the second set has to be allegro, and he played it too
                        > > fast...' or so, without regard to the whole picture sounds a lot like telling Van Gogh
                        > > he should have used more yellow or pink in this or that painting.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Most of the top level pianists have more than sufficient technical ability to play
                        > > the most difficult stuff. What they don't necessarily all have, because it can't be
                        > > acquired through practice or at school, is musicality. The ones that do have this
                        > > asset are the ones who can paint the whole picture, no matter how fast or how
                        > > slow they might be playing it. When you listen to them, and listen for the pleasure
                        > > of music and not for purpose of dismantling it, you don't discuss single mistakes
                        > > any more.
                        > > Not only because words will always be short of what the real impression in a
                        > > person's head is. And not only because Art as such is burdened with that sort
                        > > of shortcoming, i.e., that it does not avail itself to analytical explanation.
                        > > But mainly because you don't hear them anymore.
                        > > Karl
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > On 13.03.2009, at 09:04, Richard Mathisen wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I want to encourage members of this group to comment on their own favorite recordings of Op 7. Even if you have only two recordings of Op 7, feel free to compare the two of them to each other. If you have more, that's even better!
                        > >
                        > > I'm very pleased with the discussion of the first three sonatas (Op 2-1, 2-2 and 2-3). You have pointed me to many other top-quality recordings in addition to the ones I originally listed. I'm grateful for all of those recommendations!
                        > >
                        > > Of course, I've also been a bit overwhelmed in purchasing and otherwise receiving many new recordings of these Beethoven sonatas. I'm trying to absorb all the new information and recordings. I'm also trying to get my paperwork under better control.
                        > >
                        > > I wonder if we should speed up the pace a little. Does it make sense to consider more than one sonata at a time? Or should we stay with one sonata at a time? Feel free to respond publicly in this group.
                        > >
                        > > Finally, I'm trying to learn how to place numbers in columns in Yahoo. (I'm referring to my data on tempos as measured by a metronome.) If anyone has any knowledge about columns, I'd love to hear from you off-line!
                        > >
                        > > The following few lines are simply an experiment in columns.
                        > >
                        > > Pianist X 100 100 100 100 (100)
                        > > Pianist Y 96 96 96 96 (96)
                        > > Pianist Z 096 096 096 096 (096)
                        > >
                        > > Regards!
                        > >
                        > > Dick Mathisen
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: Richard Mathisen
                        > > To: beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com
                        > > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:01 AM
                        > > Subject: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Preliminary Rankings:
                        > > Recordings of Beethoven Sonata #4, Op 7
                        > >
                        > > Op 7
                        > >
                        > > 01 Annie Fischer
                        > > 02 Sviatoslav Richter Studio
                        > > 03 Paul Badura-Skoda (1)
                        > > 04 Claude Frank
                        > > 05 Sviatoslav Richter Moscow 1975
                        > > 06 Richard Goode
                        > > 07 Vladimir Ashkenazy
                        > > 08 Jeno Jando
                        > > 09 Daniel Barenboim (2)
                        > > 10 Craig Sheppard
                        > > 11 Wilhelm Kempff (2)
                        > > 12 Stephen Kovacevich
                        > > 13 Seymour Lipkin
                        > > 14 Alfredo Perl
                        > > 15 Bernard Roberts
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Recordings Considered: Anda (7-14-28), Arrau (1962-66)(ALL) , 1949 (21+26), (1984-94)(1- 2-8-16-21- 22-24-25- 26-30), Ashkenazy (1974-80)(ALL) , Ashkenazy (1988-91)(14- 21-23-28- 30-31-32) , Backhaus1 (ALL), Backhaus2 (ALL), Backhaus Carnegie (8-14-17-25- 26-29-32) , Backhaus Salzburg (12-14-17-26) , Badura-Skoda1 (1970's) (ALL), Barenboim1 (ALL), Barenboim2 (ALL), Barenboim3 (ALL), Berman (23), Brendel1 (ALL), Brendel2 (ALL), Brendel3 (ALL), Brendel Live (24+29), Buchbinder (ALL), Casadesus (2-14-23-24- 26-28), Ciani (ALL), Cliburn (8-14-23-26) , DeLarrocha (15), Douglas (29), Egorov (28), Eschenbach (29-30-31-32) , Feltsman (30-31-32), Firkusny (8-14-21-30) , Annie Fischer (ALL), Francois (8-14-23), Frank (ALL), Freire (14-21-26-31) , Gelber (3-5-8-20), Gieseking 1949-50 (ALL except 4-5-7-20-22) , 1951 (21+23), 1955-56 (1 to 14, 17-18-19-20- 30-31), Gilels (ALL except 1-9-22-24-32) , Gilels Live 1969 (14), 1984 (29), Goldsmith (5-17-21-31) , Goode (ALL), Grimaud (28-30-31), Gulda1 (ALL), Gulda2 (ALL), Hamelin (30-31-32), Haskil 1955 (17-18), 1960 (17-18), Salzburg (18), Pristine (18), "Hatto" (ALL), Heidsieck (ALL), Hewitt (3-4-7-8-15- 23), Horowitz 1946 (14), 1956-59 (7-14-21-23) , 1963?-1972 (8-14-21-23- 28), Horszowski 1977 (2-5-10-30), 19xx? (30-31-32), Jando (ALL), Kempff1 (ALL), Kempff2 (ALL), Kissin (14), Klien (8-14-23), Kovacevich (ALL), Kraus (21+30), Kuerti (ALL), Laredo (3-20-23-26) , Lewis (ALL), Lill (ALL), Lipkin (ALL), Lortie (ALL except 22-23-24-25- 27-30-31- 32), Lupu (8-14-21), Michelangeli 1981 (11-12), 1990 (32), Morovec (8-14-23-26- 27), Nat (ALL), Nikolayeva (ALL), Novaes (17-21-26), O'Conor (ALL), Ogdon (8-14-23), Ohlsson (2-3-4-8-9-10- 12-14-15- 21-24-25- 26-27-28- 32), Oland (ALL), Oppitz (ALL), Ortiz (8-14-17-21) , Paik (16 to 26), Perahia (1-2-3-7-17- 18-23-26- 28), Perl (ALL), Pires 1973 (8-14-17-23) , 2001 ( 13-14-30), Pletnev (32), Pollini studio (ALL except 4-9-10-16-18- 19-20), Pollini live (21-23-24), Richter studio (1-3-4-7-8-9- 10-11-12- 17-19-20- 22-23-27) , Richter live Prague (3-7-12-17-18- 23-27-28- 29-31), Moscow (3-4-8-17-18- 23-27-28- 30-31-32) , Carnegie (3-7-9-12-17- 18-22-23- 27-29-31) , Bucharest (7-12), Polling (6-7-17-18), Paris (6-7-17-18), Helsinki (7), Aldeburgh (3+29), Ohrid (28+30), Tokyo (31-32), Leipzig (30-31-32), London (11+29), Brooklyn (18), Munich (10+12), Rellingen (32), Kreuth (11), Amsterdam (19-20-22-23) , Ludwigsberg (30-31-32), Roberts (ALL), Rosen (27-28-29-30- 31-32), Rubinstein 1954 (8-18-21-23) , 1962-63 (3-8-14-23-26) , 1975 (18), Sandorskaya (29), Schiff (1 to 21), Schnabel (ALL), Serkin (1945-60) (8-14-21-23- 24-30-31) , (1962-80)(1- 6-8-11-12- 13-14-16- 21-23-24- 26-28-29- 30-31-32) , live (1987) (30-31-32), Sheppard (ALL), Solomon (1-3-7-8-13- 14-17-18- 21-22-23- 26-27-28- 29-30-31- 32), Taub (5-6-7-8-16- 28), Uchida (30-31-32), Vogel (29+32), Watts (13-14-23), Wild (7-8-14-18-23- 29)
                        > >
                        >

                      • Karl-Heinz Isleif
                        Richard, I understand most of what you re saying. Of course, I think we both have realized quite some time ago that the yardsticks we use are different. To
                        Message 11 of 13 , Mar 15, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Richard,
                          I understand most of what you're saying.  Of course, I think we both 
                          have realized quite some time ago that the yardsticks we use are 
                          different.  To me,  beauty lies in the whole unit and it includes all the 
                          factors you are handling separately, such as momentum and pulse 
                          and touch what have you.  

                          Music to me is just like food: mainly a matter of taste.  Only my 
                          taste buds know what tastes good to me, nobody can talk them out of it.  
                          If you've seen  the 'Enigma' film on Richter, in it he makes this statement 
                          at one point:
                          "There are two things I hate, authority and analysis! "  
                          I am sure he would not have understood one single argument of yours!

                          Kindly clarify one thing: what units are you measuring?  Can't be seconds,
                          because then Richter would be the fastest in your list.
                          Karl


                          On 15.03.2009, at 11:41, Richard Mathisen wrote:


                          Karl,
                           
                          In the third movement of Richter's recording of Op 7, my issue is about his tempo in the "Minore" or middle section, not his tempo for the first part of the movement. Therefore, the overall timings for the third movement don't tell the full story.
                           
                          Here is my estimate of the tempos taken by a number of pianists. The first tempo is the tempo at which they begin the third movement. The second tempo is their tempo for the middle section ("Minore").
                           
                          A. Fischer    76 (76)
                          Gulda 1    76 (72)
                          Gulda 2    76 (76)
                          ABM 1982    76 (76)
                          Barenboim 2    76 (80)
                          Foldes    72 (69)
                          Paik    72 (66)
                          Goode    69 (76)
                          Kempff 1    69 (69)
                          Richter Studio    66 (56)
                          ABM 10/1970    63 (63)
                          Hungerford    63 (69)
                          Gilels    63 (63)
                           
                          Note that no one comes close to Richter in terms of slowness of tempo in the Minore section. Richter is at 56. There is no one at 58 or 60. The next slowest tempo is one early Michelangeli recording and the Gilels, both at 63. Nine of the 13 recordings are at a tempo of 69 or higher in the Minore section, much faster than Richter.
                           
                          This doesn't mean that Richter's tempo is "wrong" in any sense, only that it is substantially slower than the other pianists listed above in that Minore section. Since you like it, it is obviously the "right" tempo for you!
                           
                          I did listen to the Gilels recording of Op 7 as compared to many of the others. The first movement is excellent. The second movement, while very slow, seems to hold together. The third movement, at 63, is just too slow for my taste. The last movement is far too slow for my taste. While almost all other pianists play the last movement at 120 to 138, Gilels takes it at a very slow 100.
                           
                          I agree with you that Gilels' playing is beautiful. His mastery and presentation of all the details is astonishingly good.
                           
                          But, to me, there's another side of the story to keep in mind. What about pulse? What about momentum? What about keeping this sprawling work together? This is a 29 minute work on average, the longest Beethoven sonata other than the Hammerklavier. (It's 32:38 in the Gilels performance. ) The audience has been sitting there for 25 minutes when that last movement begins. Gilels plays it slowly and lovingly, lavishing attention on all the details.  For those members of the audience, or listeners, who love details played beautifully, this may be an outstanding performance. However, I suspect quite a few people might be fidgeting in their seats.
                           
                          To me, this is very characteristic of Gilels, both his extraordinary ability to bring out all the detail and play beautifully, as well as his tendency to focus on detail to the exclusion of other aspects.
                           
                          But for those who love this, Gilels is exceptionally good!
                           
                          Dick Mathisen
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 10:26 AM
                          Subject: [beethovensonatas] Re: Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7

                          Hi Richard,
                          I found another copy of the Gilels recording. I listened to it and find it 
                          very good.

                          Here are the times for the third movement as given 
                          in the respective booklets :

                          Richter, JVC, VDC-1084: 5:32
                          Richter, Brillant 92229/2: 5:27
                          Richter, Olympia OCD 336 5:31
                          Michelangeli DG 469 820-2: 5:25
                          Gilels, DG 453 221-2: 5:51

                          which means Richter is considerably faster than Gilels and almost even 
                          with Michelangeli.

                          As I said before, these times have no meaning to me at all. After all, music 
                          is not part of track and field! I am posting them only to show that maybe 
                          you're doing Richter injustice here! Apparently other pianists are playing 
                          the same parts as slowly and some even slower. (If we were discussing 
                          Schubert sonatas you'd probably be even more upset, because he plays 
                          some of them incredibly slowly - and beautifully. )
                          Karl

                          --- In beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com, "Richard Mathisen" <richard.mathisen@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Karl,
                          > 
                          > According to Trovar, there are only two recordings of Richter playing Op 7 -- a studio recording and a live recording. Both of them are from 1975. The Olympia OCD 336 and the Japanese JVC VDC-1084 you have are the studio recording, made April 3-14, 1975 in Vienna. The Brilliant Classics 92229/2 you have is the live recording, made January 12, 1975 in Moscow.
                          > 
                          > The Richter recordings are a particularly good example of how tastes differ. You say you love the drama Richter develops in the third movement. To me, Richter's third movement is the major flaw in an otherwise wonderful recording. So, we both react strongly to Richter's third movement, but we have almost diametrically opposite reactions!
                          > 
                          > When I have a chance to do some tempos for recordings of Op 7, I'm sure they will show that Richter takes the Trio of the third movement substantially slower than other pianists. It is that slow tempo in the Trio that is the sticking point for me in the Richter recording. You will notice that I rate the live recording lower than the studio recording. To me, the main difference between the studio recording and the live recording is the tempo of the Trio -- the live recording takes the Trio even *slower* than the studio version. Beethoven's tempo marking is "Allegro," without any different tempo for the Trio (although the Trio is marked "Minore").
                          > 
                          > I find it interesting that in three successive Beethoven sonatas, Richter takes a substantially slower tempo in the third movement than most other pianists. My reaction in each case has been negative, in Op 2-1, Op 2-3, and now in Op 7. I wonder if anyone has information on Richter's choice of tempos for triple meter movements?
                          > 
                          > There are actually two separate issues here. One is the tempo chosen. The other is the decision to use a different tempo for the Trio than for the rest of the third movement. In Op 2-3, Richter speeds up for the Trio, while here in Op 7, Richter slows down for the Trio. My understanding has been that in music of this period, the Trio should generally be taken at the same tempo as the rest of the movement
                          > 
                          > Of course, Richter is noted for being unafraid to change tempo, even in the middle of a movement. The first movement of his Appassionata or the last movement of his Pathetique are examples. A lot depends on how a specific listener reactions to a specific instance. Richter can make some of his unconventional choices sound "right" to me, while others are not convincing to me.
                          > 
                          > Dick Mathisen
                          > 
                          > 
                          > ----- Original Message ----- 
                          > From: klavierneuling 
                          > To: beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com 
                          > Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 1:36 AM
                          > Subject: [beethovensonatas] Re: Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
                          > 
                          > 
                          > 
                          > 
                          > Thanks for your remarks, Richard. Taste is a strange thing! A friend 
                          > of mine thinks Backhaus is the greatest and I can stand none of this 
                          > pianist's Beethoven.
                          > 
                          > The three discs I have of the sonata Op.7 by Richter are probably 
                          > all from the same recording (will have to listen again to make sure), 
                          > all state 1975, but the dates given differ: Olympia OCD 336; Brilliant 
                          > Classics 92229/2, and the Japanese JVC VDC-1084. 
                          > 
                          > The drama he develops in the third movement sounds particularly 
                          > beautiful to my ears - how can anyone not like it?!
                          > 
                          > I agree with you on the Michelangeli (for that piece at least ...). It is 
                          > the 3rd disc in the DG set 469 820-2, recorded 1971 in Munich. 
                          > For me, he emphasizes the wrong spots and too much so that my 
                          > ears get a distorted picture.
                          > 
                          > Unfortunately, presently I'm not where all my discs are, so I cannot 
                          > verify the Gilels version, recorded 1981 in Berlin. In any case, most 
                          > everything on this studio-set DG 453 221-2 is of utmost beauty and 
                          > hard to be equalled, let alone surpassed, by anybody.
                          > 
                          > Karl
                          > 
                          > --- In beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com, "Richard Mathisen" <richard.mathisen@ > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Karl,
                          > > 
                          > > Thank you for your comments about comparing recordings! I agree with most of your comments.
                          > > 
                          > > First, my rankings represent my personal "favorites." They have no inherent validity for anyone else. Your favorites will be different. Each of us will have our own favorite recording (or recordings) of any given piece of music.
                          > > 
                          > > Second, thank you for recommending the Gilels and Michelangeli recordings of Op 7. I will certainly take another listen to the Gilels recording. At the time I completed my preliminary rankings, which was in July 2008, I had only one Michelangeli recording of Op 7 and it did not impress me. Now I have two more recordings and am trying for completeness. (I'm still missing the May 6 1970 recording of Op 7.)
                          > > 
                          > > Third, concerning Paul Badura-Skoda and Sviatoslav Richter, I have come to the personal conclusion that Badura-Skoda is an greatly under-appreciated pianist. I am impressed by his Beethoven set from the 1970's (not the fortepiano version released more recently). I am a big Richter fan, but there are times that he makes interpretative decisions that puzzle me. His slow tempo in the third movement of Op 7 is one of those decisions that puzzle me.
                          > > 
                          > > Fourth, I agree completely that a recording needs to come across as a coherent unit. That is why I have insisted on always doing a head-to-head comparison by playing one entire recording followed by another entire recording. It is always the total effect of one recording that must be compared to the total effect of another recording.
                          > > 
                          > > How do we compare two recordings when one recording is better in movements 1, 2 and 4, but worse in movement 3? The answer is always by comparing the total effect.
                          > > 
                          > > I have always tried to listen sympathetically to an artist's conception of a piece of music. Even where they make choices that bother me, I still must make the effort to appreciate what they are trying to do. In the end, though, the listener must make an evaluation of the effect made by the overall recording. Is the recording coherent? Does it communicate?
                          > > 
                          > > The great danger, and I have wrestled with it constantly, is the competition syndrome. You know, where in a piano competition the judges start listening to the notes rather than the music. As a pianist myself, that is always a major danger. I try to do my best to avoid it, but it's always there!
                          > > 
                          > > I hope I don't try to tell Van Gogh how to paint, or tell great pianists how to play. I try to analyze why a particular recording communicates more to me than another particular recording. My perspective, I hope, is always the perspective of a listener -- a knowledgeable listener who loves great music.
                          > > 
                          > > Dick Mathisen
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > > ----- Original Message ----- 
                          > > From: Karl-Heinz Isleif 
                          > > To: beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com 
                          > > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:57 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > > Hello Richard,
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > > I have the Richter, Gilels and Michelangeli recordings of this sonata. 
                          > > But I am prejudiced, as you surely know by now; unless I hear the same 
                          > > sonata on radio by someone else and it makes me automatically stop 
                          > > what I am doing and listen, I don't feel the need to buy additional versions. 
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > > I for one find it very hard to take part in a discussion where a Paul Badura-Skoda 
                          > > is ranked above Richter in any piece (and Gilels not even listed). 
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > > Perhaps more importantly:
                          > > In order to impress me, a piano sonata, or any piece of good music, has to 
                          > > come across as a coherent unit. All the tones, from the first to the last, have to
                          > > sound as if they belong to the same greater plan, leading to some same goal. 
                          > > Telling a coherent story, painting a complete picture, that is. Any disturbance
                          > > of that sense of unity is harmful. 
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > > Disturbance can be caused by inappropriate loudness, by inappropriate partial 
                          > > speed (e.g.,rubato) inappropriate total speed, by inappropriate relative speed 
                          > > from one scene to another, by inappropriate stress or the lack of it, by inappropriate 
                          > > shortcuts (`correcting' the composer!) or by a totally wrong conception of what 
                          > > led the composer to write it the way he did. And so on. All these things get their 
                          > > meaning only in respect to the whole picture. Judging a sonata by criticizing a 
                          > > performance on grounds of `the second set has to be allegro, and he played it too 
                          > > fast...' or so, without regard to the whole picture sounds a lot like telling Van Gogh 
                          > > he should have used more yellow or pink in this or that painting.
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > > Most of the top level pianists have more than sufficient technical ability to play 
                          > > the most difficult stuff. What they don't necessarily all have, because it can't be 
                          > > acquired through practice or at school, is musicality. The ones that do have this 
                          > > asset are the ones who can paint the whole picture, no matter how fast or how 
                          > > slow they might be playing it. When you listen to them, and listen for the pleasure 
                          > > of music and not for purpose of dismantling it, you don't discuss single mistakes 
                          > > any more. 
                          > > Not only because words will always be short of what the real impression in a 
                          > > person's head is. And not only because Art as such is burdened with that sort 
                          > > of shortcoming, i.e., that it does not avail itself to analytical explanation. 
                          > > But mainly because you don't hear them anymore.
                          > > Karl
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > > On 13.03.2009, at 09:04, Richard Mathisen wrote:
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > > I want to encourage members of this group to comment on their own favorite recordings of Op 7. Even if you have only two recordings of Op 7, feel free to compare the two of them to each other. If you have more, that's even better!
                          > > 
                          > > I'm very pleased with the discussion of the first three sonatas (Op 2-1, 2-2 and 2-3). You have pointed me to many other top-quality recordings in addition to the ones I originally listed. I'm grateful for all of those recommendations!
                          > > 
                          > > Of course, I've also been a bit overwhelmed in purchasing and otherwise receiving many new recordings of these Beethoven sonatas. I'm trying to absorb all the new information and recordings. I'm also trying to get my paperwork under better control.
                          > > 
                          > > I wonder if we should speed up the pace a little. Does it make sense to consider more than one sonata at a time? Or should we stay with one sonata at a time? Feel free to respond publicly in this group.
                          > > 
                          > > Finally, I'm trying to learn how to place numbers in columns in Yahoo. (I'm referring to my data on tempos as measured by a metronome.) If anyone has any knowledge about columns, I'd love to hear from you off-line!
                          > > 
                          > > The following few lines are simply an experiment in columns.
                          > > 
                          > > Pianist X 100 100 100 100 (100)
                          > > Pianist Y 96 96 96 96 (96)
                          > > Pianist Z 096 096 096 096 (096)
                          > > 
                          > > Regards!
                          > > 
                          > > Dick Mathisen
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: Richard Mathisen
                          > > To: beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com
                          > > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:01 AM
                          > > Subject: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > > Preliminary Rankings:
                          > > Recordings of Beethoven Sonata #4, Op 7
                          > > 
                          > > Op 7
                          > > 
                          > > 01 Annie Fischer 
                          > > 02 Sviatoslav Richter Studio 
                          > > 03 Paul Badura-Skoda (1)
                          > > 04 Claude Frank 
                          > > 05 Sviatoslav Richter Moscow 1975 
                          > > 06 Richard Goode
                          > > 07 Vladimir Ashkenazy 
                          > > 08 Jeno Jando 
                          > > 09 Daniel Barenboim (2) 
                          > > 10 Craig Sheppard 
                          > > 11 Wilhelm Kempff (2) 
                          > > 12 Stephen Kovacevich 
                          > > 13 Seymour Lipkin 
                          > > 14 Alfredo Perl 
                          > > 15 Bernard Roberts 
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > > Recordings Considered: Anda (7-14-28), Arrau (1962-66)(ALL) , 1949 (21+26), (1984-94)(1- 2-8-16-21- 22-24-25- 26-30), Ashkenazy (1974-80)(ALL) , Ashkenazy (1988-91)(14- 21-23-28- 30-31-32) , Backhaus1 (ALL), Backhaus2 (ALL), Backhaus Carnegie (8-14-17-25- 26-29-32) , Backhaus Salzburg (12-14-17-26) , Badura-Skoda1 (1970's) (ALL), Barenboim1 (ALL), Barenboim2 (ALL), Barenboim3 (ALL), Berman (23), Brendel1 (ALL), Brendel2 (ALL), Brendel3 (ALL), Brendel Live (24+29), Buchbinder (ALL), Casadesus (2-14-23-24- 26-28), Ciani (ALL), Cliburn (8-14-23-26) , DeLarrocha (15), Douglas (29), Egorov (28), Eschenbach (29-30-31-32) , Feltsman (30-31-32), Firkusny (8-14-21-30) , Annie Fischer (ALL), Francois (8-14-23), Frank (ALL), Freire (14-21-26-31) , Gelber (3-5-8-20), Gieseking 1949-50 (ALL except 4-5-7-20-22) , 1951 (21+23), 1955-56 (1 to 14, 17-18-19-20- 30-31), Gilels (ALL except 1-9-22-24-32) , Gilels Live 1969 (14), 1984 (29), Goldsmith (5-17-21-31) , Goode (ALL), Grimaud (28-30-31), Gulda1 (ALL), Gulda2 (ALL), Hamelin (30-31-32), Haskil 1955 (17-18), 1960 (17-18), Salzburg (18), Pristine (18), "Hatto" (ALL), Heidsieck (ALL), Hewitt (3-4-7-8-15- 23), Horowitz 1946 (14), 1956-59 (7-14-21-23) , 1963?-1972 (8-14-21-23- 28), Horszowski 1977 (2-5-10-30), 19xx? (30-31-32), Jando (ALL), Kempff1 (ALL), Kempff2 (ALL), Kissin (14), Klien (8-14-23), Kovacevich (ALL), Kraus (21+30), Kuerti (ALL), Laredo (3-20-23-26) , Lewis (ALL), Lill (ALL), Lipkin (ALL), Lortie (ALL except 22-23-24-25- 27-30-31- 32), Lupu (8-14-21), Michelangeli 1981 (11-12), 1990 (32), Morovec (8-14-23-26- 27), Nat (ALL), Nikolayeva (ALL), Novaes (17-21-26), O'Conor (ALL), Ogdon (8-14-23), Ohlsson (2-3-4-8-9-10- 12-14-15- 21-24-25- 26-27-28- 32), Oland (ALL), Oppitz (ALL), Ortiz (8-14-17-21) , Paik (16 to 26), Perahia (1-2-3-7-17- 18-23-26- 28), Perl (ALL), Pires 1973 (8-14-17-23) , 2001 ( 13-14-30), Pletnev (32), Pollini studio (ALL except 4-9-10-16-18- 19-20), Pollini live (21-23-24), Richter studio (1-3-4-7-8-9- 10-11-12- 17-19-20- 22-23-27) , Richter live Prague (3-7-12-17-18- 23-27-28- 29-31), Moscow (3-4-8-17-18- 23-27-28- 30-31-32) , Carnegie (3-7-9-12-17- 18-22-23- 27-29-31) , Bucharest (7-12), Polling (6-7-17-18), Paris (6-7-17-18), Helsinki (7), Aldeburgh (3+29), Ohrid (28+30), Tokyo (31-32), Leipzig (30-31-32), London (11+29), Brooklyn (18), Munich (10+12), Rellingen (32), Kreuth (11), Amsterdam (19-20-22-23) , Ludwigsberg (30-31-32), Roberts (ALL), Rosen (27-28-29-30- 31-32), Rubinstein 1954 (8-18-21-23) , 1962-63 (3-8-14-23-26) , 1975 (18), Sandorskaya (29), Schiff (1 to 21), Schnabel (ALL), Serkin (1945-60) (8-14-21-23- 24-30-31) , (1962-80)(1- 6-8-11-12- 13-14-16- 21-23-24- 26-28-29- 30-31-32) , live (1987) (30-31-32), Sheppard (ALL), Solomon (1-3-7-8-13- 14-17-18- 21-22-23- 26-27-28- 29-30-31- 32), Taub (5-6-7-8-16- 28), Uchida (30-31-32), Vogel (29+32), Watts (13-14-23), Wild (7-8-14-18-23- 29)
                          > >
                          >



                        • Richard Mathisen
                          Karl, I freely confess that I am overly analytical. I try to keep it under control, because too much analysis can easily be disagreeable to other people. In
                          Message 12 of 13 , Mar 15, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Karl,
                             
                            I freely confess that I am overly analytical. I try to keep it under control, because too much analysis can easily be disagreeable to other people.
                             
                            In five years of obsessively listening to recordings of Beethoven piano sonatas, I have asked myself many times the exact question you are asking -- "What am I looking for?" "Why do I consider one recording better in my opinion than another recording?"
                             
                            I'm not sure I can answer, but I offer some thoughts.
                             
                            I believe there are generally accepted standards of music criticism and I think I'm well aware of them. That doesn't mean I apply them adequately or properly, but I am aware of them and attempt to apply them.
                             
                            In regard to recordings, the most important thing to me is energy, or life, or pulse, or "red blood" or whatever other terminology can be used. The music must move forward. The opposite is a pianist who sleepwalks or goes on auto-pilot. The malign influence of the recording studio is most noticeable in this area. The desire to be note-perfect tends to increase the risk of recordings which are bloodless.
                             
                            Energy or pulse is not the same as tempo, although they are closely connected. The pulse or meter is the foundation or skeleton upon which the musical performance is built.
                             
                            If you asked me what single factor makes the most difference between recordings that I consider good and those I consider less good, I would immediately reply that it's tempo and energy / pulse. There are obviously many other factors that matter, as well.
                             
                            I doubt that I've answered your question in any satisfactory way and I suspect you might disagree vigorously with my anwer, but that's what I believe I have learned from my five years of experience (and analysis!).
                             
                            I hope that is useful to you and others!
                             
                            Dick Mathisen
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 3:46 AM
                            Subject: Re: [beethovensonatas] Re: Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7

                            Richard,

                            I understand most of what you're saying.  Of course, I think we both 
                            have realized quite some time ago that the yardsticks we use are 
                            different.  To me,  beauty lies in the whole unit and it includes all the 
                            factors you are handling separately,  such as momentum and pulse 
                            and touch what have you.  

                            Music to me is just like food: mainly a matter of taste.  Only my 
                            taste buds know what tastes good to me, nobody can talk them out of it.  
                            If you've seen  the 'Enigma' film on Richter, in it he makes this statement 
                            at one point:
                            "There are two things I hate, authority and analysis! "  
                            I am sure he would not have understood one single argument of yours!

                            Kindly clarify one thing: what units are you measuring?  Can't be seconds,
                            because then Richter would be the fastest in your list.
                            Karl


                            On 15.03.2009, at 11:41, Richard Mathisen wrote:


                            Karl,
                             
                            In the third movement of Richter's recording of Op 7, my issue is about his tempo in the "Minore" or middle section, not his tempo for the first part of the movement. Therefore, the overall timings for the third movement don't tell the full story.
                             
                            Here is my estimate of the tempos taken by a number of pianists. The first tempo is the tempo at which they begin the third movement. The second tempo is their tempo for the middle section ("Minore").
                             
                            A. Fischer    76 (76)
                            Gulda 1    76 (72)
                            Gulda 2    76 (76)
                            ABM 1982    76 (76)
                            Barenboim 2    76 (80)
                            Foldes    72 (69)
                            Paik    72 (66)
                            Goode    69 (76)
                            Kempff 1    69 (69)
                            Richter Studio    66 (56)
                            ABM 10/1970    63 (63)
                            Hungerford    63 (69)
                            Gilels    63 (63)
                             
                            Note that no one comes close to Richter in terms of slowness of tempo in the Minore section. Richter is at 56. There is no one at 58 or 60. The next slowest tempo is one early Michelangeli recording and the Gilels, both at 63. Nine of the 13 recordings are at a tempo of 69 or higher in the Minore section, much faster than Richter.
                             
                            This doesn't mean that Richter's tempo is "wrong" in any sense, only that it is substantially slower than the other pianists listed above in that Minore section. Since you like it, it is obviously the "right" tempo for you!
                             
                            I did listen to the Gilels recording of Op 7 as compared to many of the others. The first movement is excellent. The second movement, while very slow, seems to hold together. The third movement, at 63, is just too slow for my taste. The last movement is far too slow for my taste. While almost all other pianists play the last movement at 120 to 138, Gilels takes it at a very slow 100.
                             
                            I agree with you that Gilels' playing is beautiful. His mastery and presentation of all the details is astonishingly good.
                             
                            But, to me, there's another side of the story to keep in mind. What about pulse? What about momentum? What about keeping this sprawling work together? This is a 29 minute work on average, the longest Beethoven sonata other than the Hammerklavier. (It's 32:38 in the Gilels performance. ) The audience has been sitting there for 25 minutes when that last movement begins. Gilels plays it slowly and lovingly, lavishing attention on all the details.  For those members of the audience, or listeners, who love details played beautifully, this may be an outstanding performance. However, I suspect quite a few people might be fidgeting in their seats.
                             
                            To me, this is very characteristic of Gilels, both his extraordinary ability to bring out all the detail and play beautifully, as well as his tendency to focus on detail to the exclusion of other aspects.
                             
                            But for those who love this, Gilels is exceptionally good!
                             
                            Dick Mathisen
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 10:26 AM
                            Subject: [beethovensonatas] Re: Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7

                            Hi Richard,
                            I found another copy of the Gilels recording. I listened to it and find it 
                            very good.

                            Here are the times for the third movement as given 
                            in the respective booklets :

                            Richter, JVC, VDC-1084: 5:32
                            Richter, Brillant 92229/2: 5:27
                            Richter, Olympia OCD 336 5:31
                            Michelangeli DG 469 820-2: 5:25
                            Gilels, DG 453 221-2: 5:51

                            which means Richter is considerably faster than Gilels and almost even 
                            with Michelangeli.

                            As I said before, these times have no meaning to me at all. After all, music 
                            is not part of track and field! I am posting them only to show that maybe 
                            you're doing Richter injustice here! Apparently other pianists are playing 
                            the same parts as slowly and some even slower. (If we were discussing 
                            Schubert sonatas you'd probably be even more upset, because he plays 
                            some of them incredibly slowly - and beautifully. )
                            Karl

                            --- In beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com, "Richard Mathisen" <richard.mathisen@ ...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Karl,
                            > 
                            > According to Trovar, there are only two recordings of Richter playing Op 7 -- a studio recording and a live recording. Both of them are from 1975. The Olympia OCD 336 and the Japanese JVC VDC-1084 you have are the studio recording, made April 3-14, 1975 in Vienna. The Brilliant Classics 92229/2 you have is the live recording, made January 12, 1975 in Moscow.
                            > 
                            > The Richter recordings are a particularly good example of how tastes differ. You say you love the drama Richter develops in the third movement. To me, Richter's third movement is the major flaw in an otherwise wonderful recording. So, we both react strongly to Richter's third movement, but we have almost diametrically opposite reactions!
                            > 
                            > When I have a chance to do some tempos for recordings of Op 7, I'm sure they will show that Richter takes the Trio of the third movement substantially slower than other pianists. It is that slow tempo in the Trio that is the sticking point for me in the Richter recording. You will notice that I rate the live recording lower than the studio recording. To me, the main difference between the studio recording and the live recording is the tempo of the Trio -- the live recording takes the Trio even *slower* than the studio version. Beethoven's tempo marking is "Allegro," without any different tempo for the Trio (although the Trio is marked "Minore").
                            > 
                            > I find it interesting that in three successive Beethoven sonatas, Richter takes a substantially slower tempo in the third movement than most other pianists. My reaction in each case has been negative, in Op 2-1, Op 2-3, and now in Op 7. I wonder if anyone has information on Richter's choice of tempos for triple meter movements?
                            > 
                            > There are actually two separate issues here. One is the tempo chosen. The other is the decision to use a different tempo for the Trio than for the rest of the third movement. In Op 2-3, Richter speeds up for the Trio, while here in Op 7, Richter slows down for the Trio. My understanding has been that in music of this period, the Trio should generally be taken at the same tempo as the rest of the movement
                            > 
                            > Of course, Richter is noted for being unafraid to change tempo, even in the middle of a movement. The first movement of his Appassionata or the last movement of his Pathetique are examples. A lot depends on how a specific listener reactions to a specific instance. Richter can make some of his unconventional choices sound "right" to me, while others are not convincing to me.
                            > 
                            > Dick Mathisen
                            > 
                            > 
                            > ----- Original Message ----- 
                            > From: klavierneuling 
                            > To: beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com 
                            > Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 1:36 AM
                            > Subject: [beethovensonatas] Re: Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
                            > 
                            > 
                            > 
                            > 
                            > Thanks for your remarks, Richard. Taste is a strange thing! A friend 
                            > of mine thinks Backhaus is the greatest and I can stand none of this 
                            > pianist's Beethoven.
                            > 
                            > The three discs I have of the sonata Op.7 by Richter are probably 
                            > all from the same recording (will have to listen again to make sure), 
                            > all state 1975, but the dates given differ: Olympia OCD 336; Brilliant 
                            > Classics 92229/2, and the Japanese JVC VDC-1084. 
                            > 
                            > The drama he develops in the third movement sounds particularly 
                            > beautiful to my ears - how can anyone not like it?!
                            > 
                            > I agree with you on the Michelangeli (for that piece at least ...). It is 
                            > the 3rd disc in the DG set 469 820-2, recorded 1971 in Munich. 
                            > For me, he emphasizes the wrong spots and too much so that my 
                            > ears get a distorted picture.
                            > 
                            > Unfortunately, presently I'm not where all my discs are, so I cannot 
                            > verify the Gilels version, recorded 1981 in Berlin. In any case, most 
                            > everything on this studio-set DG 453 221-2 is of utmost beauty and 
                            > hard to be equalled, let alone surpassed, by anybody.
                            > 
                            > Karl
                            > 
                            > --- In beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com, "Richard Mathisen" <richard.mathisen@ > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Karl,
                            > > 
                            > > Thank you for your comments about comparing recordings! I agree with most of your comments.
                            > > 
                            > > First, my rankings represent my personal "favorites." They have no inherent validity for anyone else. Your favorites will be different. Each of us will have our own favorite recording (or recordings) of any given piece of music.
                            > > 
                            > > Second, thank you for recommending the Gilels and Michelangeli recordings of Op 7. I will certainly take another listen to the Gilels recording. At the time I completed my preliminary rankings, which was in July 2008, I had only one Michelangeli recording of Op 7 and it did not impress me. Now I have two more recordings and am trying for completeness. (I'm still missing the May 6 1970 recording of Op 7.)
                            > > 
                            > > Third, concerning Paul Badura-Skoda and Sviatoslav Richter, I have come to the personal conclusion that Badura-Skoda is an greatly under-appreciated pianist. I am impressed by his Beethoven set from the 1970's (not the fortepiano version released more recently). I am a big Richter fan, but there are times that he makes interpretative decisions that puzzle me. His slow tempo in the third movement of Op 7 is one of those decisions that puzzle me.
                            > > 
                            > > Fourth, I agree completely that a recording needs to come across as a coherent unit. That is why I have insisted on always doing a head-to-head comparison by playing one entire recording followed by another entire recording. It is always the total effect of one recording that must be compared to the total effect of another recording.
                            > > 
                            > > How do we compare two recordings when one recording is better in movements 1, 2 and 4, but worse in movement 3? The answer is always by comparing the total effect.
                            > > 
                            > > I have always tried to listen sympathetically to an artist's conception of a piece of music. Even where they make choices that bother me, I still must make the effort to appreciate what they are trying to do. In the end, though, the listener must make an evaluation of the effect made by the overall recording. Is the recording coherent? Does it communicate?
                            > > 
                            > > The great danger, and I have wrestled with it constantly, is the competition syndrome. You know, where in a piano competition the judges start listening to the notes rather than the music. As a pianist myself, that is always a major danger. I try to do my best to avoid it, but it's always there!
                            > > 
                            > > I hope I don't try to tell Van Gogh how to paint, or tell great pianists how to play. I try to analyze why a particular recording communicates more to me than another particular recording. My perspective, I hope, is always the perspective of a listener -- a knowledgeable listener who loves great music.
                            > > 
                            > > Dick Mathisen
                            > > 
                            > > 
                            > > ----- Original Message ----- 
                            > > From: Karl-Heinz Isleif 
                            > > To: beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com 
                            > > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:57 PM
                            > > Subject: Re: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
                            > > 
                            > > 
                            > > 
                            > > Hello Richard,
                            > > 
                            > > 
                            > > I have the Richter, Gilels and Michelangeli recordings of this sonata. 
                            > > But I am prejudiced, as you surely know by now; unless I hear the same 
                            > > sonata on radio by someone else and it makes me automatically stop 
                            > > what I am doing and listen, I don't feel the need to buy additional versions. 
                            > > 
                            > > 
                            > > I for one find it very hard to take part in a discussion where a Paul Badura-Skoda 
                            > > is ranked above Richter in any piece (and Gilels not even listed). 
                            > > 
                            > > 
                            > > Perhaps more importantly:
                            > > In order to impress me, a piano sonata, or any piece of good music, has to 
                            > > come across as a coherent unit. All the tones, from the first to the last, have to
                            > > sound as if they belong to the same greater plan, leading to some same goal. 
                            > > Telling a coherent story, painting a complete picture, that is. Any disturbance
                            > > of that sense of unity is harmful. 
                            > > 
                            > > 
                            > > Disturbance can be caused by inappropriate loudness, by inappropriate partial 
                            > > speed (e.g.,rubato) inappropriate total speed, by inappropriate relative speed 
                            > > from one scene to another, by inappropriate stress or the lack of it, by inappropriate 
                            > > shortcuts (`correcting' the composer!) or by a totally wrong conception of what 
                            > > led the composer to write it the way he did. And so on. All these things get their 
                            > > meaning only in respect to the whole picture. Judging a sonata by criticizing a 
                            > > performance on grounds of `the second set has to be allegro, and he played it too 
                            > > fast...' or so, without regard to the whole picture sounds a lot like telling Van Gogh 
                            > > he should have used more yellow or pink in this or that painting.
                            > > 
                            > > 
                            > > Most of the top level pianists have more than sufficient technical ability to play 
                            > > the most difficult stuff. What they don't necessarily all have, because it can't be 
                            > > acquired through practice or at school, is musicality. The ones that do have this 
                            > > asset are the ones who can paint the whole picture, no matter how fast or how 
                            > > slow they might be playing it. When you listen to them, and listen for the pleasure 
                            > > of music and not for purpose of dismantling it, you don't discuss single mistakes 
                            > > any more. 
                            > > Not only because words will always be short of what the real impression in a 
                            > > person's head is. And not only because Art as such is burdened with that sort 
                            > > of shortcoming, i.e., that it does not avail itself to analytical explanation. 
                            > > But mainly because you don't hear them anymore.
                            > > Karl
                            > > 
                            > > 
                            > > On 13.03.2009, at 09:04, Richard Mathisen wrote:
                            > > 
                            > > 
                            > > 
                            > > I want to encourage members of this group to comment on their own favorite recordings of Op 7. Even if you have only two recordings of Op 7, feel free to compare the two of them to each other. If you have more, that's even better!
                            > > 
                            > > I'm very pleased with the discussion of the first three sonatas (Op 2-1, 2-2 and 2-3). You have pointed me to many other top-quality recordings in addition to the ones I originally listed. I'm grateful for all of those recommendations!
                            > > 
                            > > Of course, I've also been a bit overwhelmed in purchasing and otherwise receiving many new recordings of these Beethoven sonatas. I'm trying to absorb all the new information and recordings. I'm also trying to get my paperwork under better control.
                            > > 
                            > > I wonder if we should speed up the pace a little. Does it make sense to consider more than one sonata at a time? Or should we stay with one sonata at a time? Feel free to respond publicly in this group.
                            > > 
                            > > Finally, I'm trying to learn how to place numbers in columns in Yahoo. (I'm referring to my data on tempos as measured by a metronome.) If anyone has any knowledge about columns, I'd love to hear from you off-line!
                            > > 
                            > > The following few lines are simply an experiment in columns.
                            > > 
                            > > Pianist X 100 100 100 100 (100)
                            > > Pianist Y 96 96 96 96 (96)
                            > > Pianist Z 096 096 096 096 (096)
                            > > 
                            > > Regards!
                            > > 
                            > > Dick Mathisen
                            > > 
                            > > 
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: Richard Mathisen
                            > > To: beethovensonatas@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:01 AM
                            > > Subject: [beethovensonatas] Rankings of Sonata #4, Op 7
                            > > 
                            > > 
                            > > 
                            > > 
                            > > Preliminary Rankings:
                            > > Recordings of Beethoven Sonata #4, Op 7
                            > > 
                            > > Op 7
                            > > 
                            > > 01 Annie Fischer 
                            > > 02 Sviatoslav Richter Studio 
                            > > 03 Paul Badura-Skoda (1)
                            > > 04 Claude Frank 
                            > > 05 Sviatoslav Richter Moscow 1975 
                            > > 06 Richard Goode
                            > > 07 Vladimir Ashkenazy 
                            > > 08 Jeno Jando 
                            > > 09 Daniel Barenboim (2) 
                            > > 10 Craig Sheppard 
                            > > 11 Wilhelm Kempff (2) 
                            > > 12 Stephen Kovacevich 
                            > > 13 Seymour Lipkin 
                            > > 14 Alfredo Perl 
                            > > 15 Bernard Roberts 
                            > > 
                            > > 
                            > > Recordings Considered: Anda (7-14-28), Arrau (1962-66)(ALL) , 1949 (21+26), (1984-94)(1- 2-8-16-21- 22-24-25- 26-30), Ashkenazy (1974-80)(ALL) , Ashkenazy (1988-91)(14- 21-23-28- 30-31-32) , Backhaus1 (ALL), Backhaus2 (ALL), Backhaus Carnegie (8-14-17-25- 26-29-32) , Backhaus Salzburg (12-14-17-26) , Badura-Skoda1 (1970's) (ALL), Barenboim1 (ALL), Barenboim2 (ALL), Barenboim3 (ALL), Berman (23), Brendel1 (ALL), Brendel2 (ALL), Brendel3 (ALL), Brendel Live (24+29), Buchbinder (ALL), Casadesus (2-14-23-24- 26-28), Ciani (ALL), Cliburn (8-14-23-26) , DeLarrocha (15), Douglas (29), Egorov (28), Eschenbach (29-30-31-32) , Feltsman (30-31-32), Firkusny (8-14-21-30) , Annie Fischer (ALL), Francois (8-14-23), Frank (ALL), Freire (14-21-26-31) , Gelber (3-5-8-20), Gieseking 1949-50 (ALL except 4-5-7-20-22) , 1951 (21+23), 1955-56 (1 to 14, 17-18-19-20- 30-31), Gilels (ALL except 1-9-22-24-32) , Gilels Live 1969 (14), 1984 (29), Goldsmith (5-17-21-31) , Goode (ALL), Grimaud (28-30-31), Gulda1 (ALL), Gulda2 (ALL), Hamelin (30-31-32), Haskil 1955 (17-18), 1960 (17-18), Salzburg (18), Pristine (18), "Hatto" (ALL), Heidsieck (ALL), Hewitt (3-4-7-8-15- 23), Horowitz 1946 (14), 1956-59 (7-14-21-23) , 1963?-1972 (8-14-21-23- 28), Horszowski 1977 (2-5-10-30), 19xx? (30-31-32), Jando (ALL), Kempff1 (ALL), Kempff2 (ALL), Kissin (14), Klien (8-14-23), Kovacevich (ALL), Kraus (21+30), Kuerti (ALL), Laredo (3-20-23-26) , Lewis (ALL), Lill (ALL), Lipkin (ALL), Lortie (ALL except 22-23-24-25- 27-30-31- 32), Lupu (8-14-21), Michelangeli 1981 (11-12), 1990 (32), Morovec (8-14-23-26- 27), Nat (ALL), Nikolayeva (ALL), Novaes (17-21-26), O'Conor (ALL), Ogdon (8-14-23), Ohlsson (2-3-4-8-9-10- 12-14-15- 21-24-25- 26-27-28- 32), Oland (ALL), Oppitz (ALL), Ortiz (8-14-17-21) , Paik (16 to 26), Perahia (1-2-3-7-17- 18-23-26- 28), Perl (ALL), Pires 1973 (8-14-17-23) , 2001 ( 13-14-30), Pletnev (32), Pollini studio (ALL except 4-9-10-16-18- 19-20), Pollini live (21-23-24), Richter studio (1-3-4-7-8-9- 10-11-12- 17-19-20- 22-23-27) , Richter live Prague (3-7-12-17-18- 23-27-28- 29-31), Moscow (3-4-8-17-18- 23-27-28- 30-31-32) , Carnegie (3-7-9-12-17- 18-22-23- 27-29-31) , Bucharest (7-12), Polling (6-7-17-18), Paris (6-7-17-18), Helsinki (7), Aldeburgh (3+29), Ohrid (28+30), Tokyo (31-32), Leipzig (30-31-32), London (11+29), Brooklyn (18), Munich (10+12), Rellingen (32), Kreuth (11), Amsterdam (19-20-22-23) , Ludwigsberg (30-31-32), Roberts (ALL), Rosen (27-28-29-30- 31-32), Rubinstein 1954 (8-18-21-23) , 1962-63 (3-8-14-23-26) , 1975 (18), Sandorskaya (29), Schiff (1 to 21), Schnabel (ALL), Serkin (1945-60) (8-14-21-23- 24-30-31) , (1962-80)(1- 6-8-11-12- 13-14-16- 21-23-24- 26-28-29- 30-31-32) , live (1987) (30-31-32), Sheppard (ALL), Solomon (1-3-7-8-13- 14-17-18- 21-22-23- 26-27-28- 29-30-31- 32), Taub (5-6-7-8-16- 28), Uchida (30-31-32), Vogel (29+32), Watts (13-14-23), Wild (7-8-14-18-23- 29)
                            > >
                            >



                          • John Duffy
                            Has anyone heard/heard of Kun-Woo Paik? He is Korean, recent & is on Decca I think his LvB Sonata interpretations are unique; so how should I introduce him to
                            Message 13 of 13 , Mar 16, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Has anyone heard/heard of Kun-Woo Paik?
                              He is Korean, recent & is on Decca I think his LvB Sonata
                              interpretations are unique; so how should I introduce him to this
                              community?
                              I can upload to your"links" section, so that you may hear for yourself.
                              Perhaps he is already well known and disliked.. Is there any way I can
                              contribute? I have no method of calculating metronome markings or
                              any such.....•• Dr. john Duffy in Iowa.

                              On Mar 16, 2009, at 12:58 AM, Richard Mathisen wrote:

                              > Karl,
                              >  
                              > I freely confess that I am overly analytical. I try to keep it under
                              > control, because too much analysis can e
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.