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Re: Fwd: Bee Monitoring List Discussion Protocol and Trapping Bees

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  • Sam Droege
    Thom: I have removed you from the beemonitoring group. Sorry. Feel free to contact me on my personal account to talk about things further. sam Sam Droege
    Message 1 of 2 , Dec 29, 2006
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      Thom:

      I have removed you from the beemonitoring group.  Sorry. Feel free to contact me on my personal account to talk about things further.

      sam

      Sam Droege  Sam_Droege@...                      
      w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
      USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
      BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville, MD  20705
      Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov


      In the Microscope

      Here too are the dreaming landscapes,
      lunar, derelict.
      Here too are the masses,
      tillers of the soil.
      And cells, fighters
      who lay down their lives for a song.


      Here too are cemeteries,
      fame and snow.
      And I hear the murmuring,
      the revolt of immense estates.


              -- Miroslav Holub



      "Thomas of Baltimore" <photosbythom@...>

      12/29/2006 02:51 PM

      To
      beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com, "Sam Droege" <sdroege@...>
      cc
      Subject
      Fwd: Bee Monitoring List Discussion Protocol and Trapping Bees





      OK, even I tire of persistent resistance so I concede to your "suggestion" to stay inside the box as you define it.  Big Daddy (Sam) runs his plantation (forum) the way he likes and since he has the power of the veto (as forum administrator), I defer to him.  
       
      Apparently Gubnah Droege believes my questions have already been asked (and answered!) as these are elementary to you all.  No matter that neither have my questions been asked nor have they been answered!  
       
      Sam's polite request to silence me reflects the outdated and outmoded victorian worldview which stratefies people based on academic degrees and years of service to an academy, no matter that under YOUR watch the situation facing the bees has gotten progressively worse!   What is that Einstein quote?  "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."
       
      Towing the line on the non-native issue reflects lazy thinking, not mean-spirtedness.   But lazy thinking is dangerous.   But the biggest danger is when public policy is crafted based on the work of people who sit in ivory towers and do not know what is happening on the ground.   That is what I am talking about!  
       
      It is downright frightening how little you all know about the dynamics of species introduction and integration and YET, you are approving the introduction of a non-native bee into California!  How dare you!
       
      As scientists, you should be actively engaged in discourse.  On of your goals should not be maintaining a neat, clean, and silent forum!Afterall, discourse is good for democracy and science.  And, both are messy!
       
      -Thom
       


      ---------- Forwarded message ----------
      From: Sam Droege <
      sdroege@...>
      Date: Dec 29, 2006 9:05 AM
      Subject: Bee Monitoring List Discussion Protocol and Trapping Bees
      To: Thomas of Baltimore <
      photosbythom@...>


      Thom:


      I know you feel strongly about these topics, but I think what I and others feel in regards to your postings is not that they are off topic in the broad brush, but that they clearly fall out of the pattern of what has been expressed on this list.  Yours are legitimate questions, and they are ones that anyone would ask, but they are the questions of someone just starting out and I would say that they are more in line with a more general entomological listserve rather than this one.  Alternatively, you could also call or write me or some other bee people directly to find out these answers rather than query the entire list.  I would suggest using those means rather the entire list at this point.


      Regarding the use of traps for bees vs. photography for monitoring.  An evaluation of any monitoring technique or program comes down to a weighing of ethics, logistics, costs, bias, and variance and then making a judgement call about how you weigh each of those.  You can read more about those topics at our monitoring web site at:


      http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov/monmanual/

      Ethically, nobody likes the fact that bees are killed during the process of monitoring with pan traps.  From all the other perspectives, however, native bees with very few exceptions need to be observed under a microscope in order to identify them.  The alternatives such as in the field wing scanning and photography are far to expensive for the samples sizes that would be necessary and have very high observer bias to perform well as a means of large scale monitoring or inventory.  I think that all of us working on bees honor the bees that are sacrificed for this sort of work.


      Pan traps are one portion of the spectrum of uses for monitoring and definitely have their biases, but because they are cheap, can be used by volunteers, catch most (but not all) of the members of a bee community, and have very little observer bias it remains foremost on my list for  monitoring purposes.  If you want to study plant/bee interactions, that is a research rather than a monitoring questions and you would use a very different approach.  


      sam



      Sam Droege  
      Sam_Droege@...                      
      w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
      USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
      BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville, MD  20705

      Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov

      Natural science is constantly drilling into man's consciousness that
      fundamentally he is a worm in the universe. The political plague-monger is
      constantly harping upon the fact that man is not an animal, but a "zoon
      politikon," i.e., a non-animal, an upholder of values, a "moral being."  How
      much mischief has been perpetuated by the Platonic philosophy of the state!
      It is quite clear why man knows the politicos better than the natural
      scientists:  He does not want to be reminded of the fact that he is
      fundamentally a sexual animal.  He does not want to be an animal.
          Wilhelm Reich


      "Thomas of Baltimore" <photosbythom@... >

      12/27/2006 08:07 PM


      To
      "Sam Droege" <sdroege@...>, beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
      cc
      Subject
      Re: Ascher and the BeeMonitoring List






      Sam:
       
      Of course, this "conflict of interests" points to more than mere descriptions of message board forums.  
       
      As I told John, I am a "beemonitor" who lives in Baltimore City.  And, as you well know, it is impossible to discuss bees without discussing flowers.  And, in the urban environment context it is impossible to discuss flowers without confronting "non-native" plant species.  
       
      Therefore what John characterized as my "too numerous posts" to the forum involve exploring the topic of the relationship between bees and non-native flowers in the urban ecosystem.  
       
      And, I went on to argue that [a]ny discussion of the ecology of the city, and the ecology of bees in the city, will necessarily include socio-political discussion.  It is unavoidable.  
       
      As an amateur urban naturalist I am particularly interested in the whole notion of introduced species which is why I mentioned it on the message board.  But let's not let any disagreement on that topic overshadow what we do agree on -- our love of bees.
       
      To me, bee monitoring is inherently socio-political because it is part environmental advocacy and part citizen science.  And to truly make any sense of bees in the urban context requires exploration and examination from every angel and of every subject or topic.  
       
      If you intend to bring involve the public in beemonitoring activities then I can assure you can expect that there will be as many different perspectives to accomodate as there are goals and objectives to consider.
       
      I posted my bee survey photos to the yahoo group to [a] establish the legitimicy of my interest in the subject, and [b] to illustrate the importance of non-native flowers to my local native bee fauna by showing the specimen in situ with its pollen source.  
       
      As a simple analysis I reviewed each specimen in my bee gallery and tallied each occurance of a non-native/native flowers.  Of those with bee on flower 23 are introduced species (11 garden specimens and 12 weeds), while only 9 are "native".
       
      As with the Ptilothrix-Rose Of Sharon relationship, these numbers suggests that the my local bee fauna depend in large measure on the the presence of the non-native flora for their continued existence in this area.  
       
      Which brings me to some criticisms of your decision to exclusively use pitfall traps in your upcoming bee monitoring project:
       
      1.  Pitfall traps cannot tell you anything about which plants the collected bees depend on. (This limits collecting data that would help establish how important introduced plant species are to bees in other areas.)
       
      2. Photodocumentation and pan traps each have limitations and opportunities which if brought together will ensure accurate depictions of local bee fauna.
       
      3.  According to James Cane, "samples from guilds typically contain fewer instances of difficult congenerics that need to be distinguished, as well as more cases in which a genus is represented by a single species in a given guild."  
       
      4. Further along he adds, "Pan traps ... preferentially catch small-bodied bees, especially sweat bees, and miss many bee taxa altogether (J. H. Cane, unpublished manuscript; T. L. Griswold, unpublished manuscript )."
       
      What do you think?
       
       
      Warmly, Thomas of Baltimore City
       
      (Source: James Cane research -
      http://www.ecologyandsociety.org/vol5/iss1/art3/#Theprimacyoftaxonomyandidentification )
       
       
       
      .  
       
       
       
      On Bugguide you ID'd one of my specimens -- Ptilothrix bombiformis:
       

      http://bugguide.net/node/view/88073
       
      I observed the specimen in the park near my house.  The area is a former trash dump.  Sam Droege mentioned this species is a Hibiscus specialist so it is likely that this species is using the introduced Rose-of-Sharon which I have observed growing nearby.
       
      As I have not recorded any native hibiscus in the area, the continued presence of my local population is dependent in large part on the Rose-Of-Sharon.



      On 12/27/06, Sam Droege <
      sdroege@... > wrote:

      Thom:


      Ah, I will have to look at what I wrote!

      thanks


      sam


      "Thomas of Baltimore" < photosbythom@... >

      12/27/2006 12:31 PM


      To
      "Sam Droege" < sdroege@...>
      cc
      Subject
      Re: Ascher and the BeeMonitoring List







      Sam:

      Yes, John and I are cool again.  I've learned that it is best to provide data when speaking to scientists so my bee gallery was just the medicine needed.

      Not to split hairs here but the "Beemonitoring" yahoo group description suggests that the group is interesred in more than you are suggesting here.  Perhaps a revision is called for.

      -Thom

      On 12/27/06, Sam Droege <
      sdroege@... > wrote:

      Hi Thom:


      John is a good guy, but can be so direct as to be impolitic, but it sounds like you guys are working that out.  John does have a point, however, which is that in general it is better to take conversations with specific people about specific topics off the listserve and email their personal accounts.  The bee monitoring list is largely specific to issues of surveys and is very low volume most of the time.  The entomology list entomol-l is a better place for general questions and has a much bigger audience to boot.

      sam


                                                 
      Sam Droege  
      Sam_Droege@...                      
      w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
      USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
      BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville, MD  20705

      Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov

      There was a man who loved bees.
      He always was their friend.
      He used to sit upon their hive.
      But they stung him, in the end.
      -  Nick Wallingford


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