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Re: [beemonitoring] Is Chelostoma philadelpi an introduced species?

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  • Jack Neff
    Sam: Failure to speciate (or extinction rate = speciation rate) is reasonable for relicts. Also, in E. Asia - North American disjuncts, multiple
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 24, 2008
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      Sam: Failure to speciate (or extinction rate = speciation rate) is reasonable for relicts. Also, in E. Asia - North American disjuncts, multiple introductions are common and it is not unusual to find that the eastern and western American taxa are not closely related and each group may be more closely related to an OW clade. It would be interesting to see a phylogeny of Philedelphus. Also, putting a clock on the Chelostoma phylogeny might shed some light.

      Jack

      John L. Neff
      Central Texas Melittological Institute
      7307 Running Rope
      Austin,TX 78731 USA
      512-345-7219


      --- On Wed, 9/24/08, Sam Droege <sdroege@...> wrote:

      > From: Sam Droege <sdroege@...>
      > Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] Is Chelostoma philadelpi an introduced species?
      > To: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
      > Cc: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 4:00 PM
      > Jack:
      >
      > That sounds resonable, but wouldn't you expect there to
      > be several species
      > in that subgenus in North America, not just one?
      > Particularly since the
      > split would have occurred long ago? Also since most of the
      > Philadelphus
      > species are western, one would suppose the subgenus would
      > be in a number
      > of places in the West (or maybe we need to do more
      > collecting off of
      > Philadelphus in the West!), particularly since at least one
      > species of
      > Philadelphus appears to be common there..
      >
      > But then on the other hand, why hasen't anyone found C.
      > philadelphi in
      > China if that's where it originated or in Southern
      > Europe where apparently
      > the Mock Orange that is most often used as an ornamental
      > originated from?
      >
      > I think a world-wide collecting trip of Mock Oranges is in
      > order here!
      >
      > sam
      >
      > Sam Droege sdroege@...
      > w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
      > USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
      > BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville,
      > MD 20705
      > Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov
      >
      > To the Fringed Gentian
      >
      > Thou blossom bright with autumn dew,
      > And colored with the heaven's own blue,
      > that openest when the quiet light
      > Succeeds the keen and frosty night -
      >
      > Thou comest not when violets lean
      > O'er wandering brooks and springs unseen,
      > Or columbines, in purple dressed,
      > Nod o'er the ground-bird's hidden nest.
      >
      > Thou waitest late and com'st alone,
      > When woods are bare and birds are flown,
      > and frosts and shortening days portend
      > The aged year is near his end.
      >
      > Then doth thy sweet and quiet eye
      > Look through its fringes to the sky,
      > Blue-blue-as if that sky let fall
      > A flower from its cerulean wall.
      >
      > I would that thus, when I shall see
      > the hour of death draw near to me,
      > Hope, blossoming within my heart,
      > May look to heaven as I depart.
      > -William Cullen Bryant
      >
      > P Please don't print this e-mail unless really needed.
      >
      >
      >
      > Jack Neff <jlnatctmi@...>
      > Sent by: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
      > 09/24/2008 02:14 PM
      > Please respond to
      > beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      > To
      > beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
      > cc
      >
      > Subject
      > Re: [beemonitoring] Is Chelostoma philadelpi an introduced
      > species?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Sam: Your speculation that Chelostoma philadelphi is
      > introduced is
      > intriguing. However, China -Eastern North America is a
      > classic pattern for
      > Miocene plant (and other organismal) disjunctions.
      > Chelostoma is a the
      > base of the Osmiini (Praz et al, 2008, Molec. Phylog. Evol
      > 49: 185-197) so
      > presumably is old enough. C. philadelphi could be what was
      > once a somewhat
      > geographically restricted relict of a Miocene disjunction
      > which greatly
      > expanded its range with the widespread planting of an
      > appropriate host
      > plant (introduced mock orange). Many other bees have
      > recently expanded
      > their ranges with horticultural or weedy range expansions
      > of their host
      > plants.
      >
      > best
      >
      > Jack
      >
      > John L. Neff
      > Central Texas Melittological Institute
      > 7307 Running Rope
      > Austin,TX 78731 USA
      > 512-345-7219
    • Sam Droege
      Jack: You have me convinced. I am swinging back to it not be an introduced species,,,meerly a very intriguing one that (as usual) would very interesting to
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 24, 2008
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        Jack:

        You have me convinced.  I am swinging back to it not be an introduced species,,,meerly a very intriguing one that (as usual) would very interesting to look into further.

        Thanks for the insights.

        sam

        Sam Droege  sdroege@...                      
        w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
        USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
        BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville, MD  20705
        Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov


        The Plover and the Clover can be told
            apart with ease,
        By paying close attention to the
            habits of the Bees,
        For ento-molo-gists aver, the Bee
            can be in clover,
        While ety-molo-gists concur, there
            is no B in Plover.
           -Robert Williams Wood - The Clover and the Plover


        P Please don't print this e-mail unless really needed.


        Jack Neff <jlnatctmi@...>
        Sent by: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com

        09/24/2008 05:26 PM

        Please respond to
        beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com

        To
        beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
        cc
        Subject
        Re: [beemonitoring] Is Chelostoma philadelpi an introduced species?





        Sam: Failure to speciate (or extinction rate = speciation rate) is reasonable for relicts. Also, in E. Asia - North American disjuncts, multiple introductions are common and it is not unusual to find that the eastern and western American taxa are not closely related and each group may be more closely related to an OW clade. It would be interesting to see a phylogeny of Philedelphus. Also, putting a clock on the Chelostoma phylogeny might shed some light.

        Jack

        John L. Neff
        Central Texas Melittological Institute
        7307 Running Rope
        Austin,TX 78731 USA
        512-345-7219

        --- On Wed, 9/24/08, Sam Droege <
        sdroege@...> wrote:

        > From: Sam Droege <
        sdroege@...>
        > Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] Is Chelostoma philadelpi an introduced species?
        > To:
        beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
        > Cc:
        beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 4:00 PM
        > Jack:
        >
        > That sounds resonable, but wouldn't you expect there to
        > be several species
        > in that subgenus in North America, not just one?
        > Particularly since the
        > split would have occurred long ago? Also since most of the
        > Philadelphus
        > species are western, one would suppose the subgenus would
        > be in a number
        > of places in the West (or maybe we need to do more
        > collecting off of
        > Philadelphus in the West!), particularly since at least one
        > species of
        > Philadelphus appears to be common there..
        >
        > But then on the other hand, why hasen't anyone found C.
        > philadelphi in
        > China if that's where it originated or in Southern
        > Europe where apparently
        > the Mock Orange that is most often used as an ornamental
        > originated from?
        >
        > I think a world-wide collecting trip of Mock Oranges is in
        > order here!
        >
        > sam
        >
        > Sam Droege
        sdroege@...
        > w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
        > USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
        > BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville,
        > MD 20705
        >
        Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov
        >
        > To the Fringed Gentian
        >
        > Thou blossom bright with autumn dew,
        > And colored with the heaven's own blue,
        > that openest when the quiet light
        > Succeeds the keen and frosty night -
        >
        > Thou comest not when violets lean
        > O'er wandering brooks and springs unseen,
        > Or columbines, in purple dressed,
        > Nod o'er the ground-bird's hidden nest.
        >
        > Thou waitest late and com'st alone,
        > When woods are bare and birds are flown,
        > and frosts and shortening days portend
        > The aged year is near his end.
        >
        > Then doth thy sweet and quiet eye
        > Look through its fringes to the sky,
        > Blue-blue-as if that sky let fall
        > A flower from its cerulean wall.
        >
        > I would that thus, when I shall see
        > the hour of death draw near to me,
        > Hope, blossoming within my heart,
        > May look to heaven as I depart.
        > -William Cullen Bryant
        >
        > P Please don't print this e-mail unless really needed.
        >
        >
        >
        > Jack Neff <
        jlnatctmi@...>
        > Sent by:
        beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
        > 09/24/2008 02:14 PM
        > Please respond to
        >
        beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        > To
        >
        beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
        > cc
        >
        > Subject
        > Re: [beemonitoring] Is Chelostoma philadelpi an introduced
        > species?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Sam: Your speculation that Chelostoma philadelphi is
        > introduced is
        > intriguing. However, China -Eastern North America is a
        > classic pattern for
        > Miocene plant (and other organismal) disjunctions.
        > Chelostoma is a the
        > base of the Osmiini (Praz et al, 2008, Molec. Phylog. Evol
        > 49: 185-197) so
        > presumably is old enough. C. philadelphi could be what was
        > once a somewhat
        > geographically restricted relict of a Miocene disjunction
        > which greatly
        > expanded its range with the widespread planting of an
        > appropriate host
        > plant (introduced mock orange). Many other bees have
        > recently expanded
        > their ranges with horticultural or weedy range expansions
        > of their host
        > plants.
        >
        > best
        >
        > Jack
        >
        > John L. Neff
        > Central Texas Melittological Institute
        > 7307 Running Rope
        > Austin,TX 78731 USA
        > 512-345-7219


      • John S. Ascher
        Sam and Jack: The diagnostic features of Chelostoma lamellum is illustrated in Wu s recent book on Chinese Megachilidae along with another related species, C.
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 24, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Sam and Jack:

          The diagnostic features of Chelostoma lamellum is illustrated in Wu's
          recent book on Chinese Megachilidae along with another related species, C.
          sublamellum. At present these are placed in subgenus Ceraheriades which
          now includes five species. Thus C. lamellum is not even consubgeneric with
          C. philadelphi and is clearly specifically distinct from C. philadelphi.

          Macropis is a good example of a bee genus with centers of diversity in the
          eastern USA and China.

          Many bee genera have failed to speciate in the eastern USA and are absent
          from much of the western USA, including most or all of the Rocky
          Mountains, such as Augochlora, Melitoma, and Ptilothrix.

          I've collected C. philadelphi primarily from planted mock orange, e.g., on
          the Cornell U. campus. I agree with Jack's suggestion that it has greatly
          expanded its range due to widespread planting of its host.

          If anyone has Chelostoma specimens with pollen affixed I suggest that they
          send these to Andreas Mueller so that he can identify the pollen source.

          "I think a world-wide collecting trip of Mock Oranges is in
          >> order here!"

          I doubt that we have overlooked Prochelostoma species.

          John


          > Jack:
          >
          > You have me convinced. I am swinging back to it not be an introduced
          > species,,,meerly a very intriguing one that (as usual) would very
          > interesting to look into further.
          >
          > Thanks for the insights.
          >
          > sam
          >
          > Sam Droege sdroege@...
          > w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
          > USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
          > BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville, MD 20705
          > Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov
          >
          > The Plover and the Clover can be told
          > apart with ease,
          > By paying close attention to the
          > habits of the Bees,
          > For ento-molo-gists aver, the Bee
          > can be in clover,
          > While ety-molo-gists concur, there
          > is no B in Plover.
          > -Robert Williams Wood - The Clover and the Plover
          >
          > P Please don't print this e-mail unless really needed.
          >
          >
          >
          > Jack Neff <jlnatctmi@...>
          > Sent by: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
          > 09/24/2008 05:26 PM
          > Please respond to
          > beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          > To
          > beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
          > cc
          >
          > Subject
          > Re: [beemonitoring] Is Chelostoma philadelpi an introduced species?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Sam: Failure to speciate (or extinction rate = speciation rate) is
          > reasonable for relicts. Also, in E. Asia - North American disjuncts,
          > multiple introductions are common and it is not unusual to find that the
          > eastern and western American taxa are not closely related and each group
          > may be more closely related to an OW clade. It would be interesting to see
          > a phylogeny of Philedelphus. Also, putting a clock on the Chelostoma
          > phylogeny might shed some light.
          >
          > Jack
          >
          > John L. Neff
          > Central Texas Melittological Institute
          > 7307 Running Rope
          > Austin,TX 78731 USA
          > 512-345-7219
          >
          > --- On Wed, 9/24/08, Sam Droege <sdroege@...> wrote:
          >
          >> From: Sam Droege <sdroege@...>
          >> Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] Is Chelostoma philadelpi an introduced
          > species?
          >> To: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
          >> Cc: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
          >> Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 4:00 PM
          >> Jack:
          >>
          >> That sounds resonable, but wouldn't you expect there to
          >> be several species
          >> in that subgenus in North America, not just one?
          >> Particularly since the
          >> split would have occurred long ago? Also since most of the
          >> Philadelphus
          >> species are western, one would suppose the subgenus would
          >> be in a number
          >> of places in the West (or maybe we need to do more
          >> collecting off of
          >> Philadelphus in the West!), particularly since at least one
          >> species of
          >> Philadelphus appears to be common there..
          >>
          >> But then on the other hand, why hasen't anyone found C.
          >> philadelphi in
          >> China if that's where it originated or in Southern
          >> Europe where apparently
          >> the Mock Orange that is most often used as an ornamental
          >> originated from?
          >>
          >> I think a world-wide collecting trip of Mock Oranges is in
          >> order here!
          >>
          >> sam
          >>
          >> Sam Droege sdroege@...
          >> w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
          >> USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
          >> BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville,
          >> MD 20705
          >> Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov
          >>
          >> To the Fringed Gentian
          >>
          >> Thou blossom bright with autumn dew,
          >> And colored with the heaven's own blue,
          >> that openest when the quiet light
          >> Succeeds the keen and frosty night -
          >>
          >> Thou comest not when violets lean
          >> O'er wandering brooks and springs unseen,
          >> Or columbines, in purple dressed,
          >> Nod o'er the ground-bird's hidden nest.
          >>
          >> Thou waitest late and com'st alone,
          >> When woods are bare and birds are flown,
          >> and frosts and shortening days portend
          >> The aged year is near his end.
          >>
          >> Then doth thy sweet and quiet eye
          >> Look through its fringes to the sky,
          >> Blue-blue-as if that sky let fall
          >> A flower from its cerulean wall.
          >>
          >> I would that thus, when I shall see
          >> the hour of death draw near to me,
          >> Hope, blossoming within my heart,
          >> May look to heaven as I depart.
          >> -William Cullen Bryant
          >>
          >> P Please don't print this e-mail unless really needed.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Jack Neff <jlnatctmi@...>
          >> Sent by: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
          >> 09/24/2008 02:14 PM
          >> Please respond to
          >> beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
          >>
          >>
          >> To
          >> beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
          >> cc
          >>
          >> Subject
          >> Re: [beemonitoring] Is Chelostoma philadelpi an introduced
          >> species?
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Sam: Your speculation that Chelostoma philadelphi is
          >> introduced is
          >> intriguing. However, China -Eastern North America is a
          >> classic pattern for
          >> Miocene plant (and other organismal) disjunctions.
          >> Chelostoma is a the
          >> base of the Osmiini (Praz et al, 2008, Molec. Phylog. Evol
          >> 49: 185-197) so
          >> presumably is old enough. C. philadelphi could be what was
          >> once a somewhat
          >> geographically restricted relict of a Miocene disjunction
          >> which greatly
          >> expanded its range with the widespread planting of an
          >> appropriate host
          >> plant (introduced mock orange). Many other bees have
          >> recently expanded
          >> their ranges with horticultural or weedy range expansions
          >> of their host
          >> plants.
          >>
          >> best
          >>
          >> Jack
          >>
          >> John L. Neff
          >> Central Texas Melittological Institute
          >> 7307 Running Rope
          >> Austin,TX 78731 USA
          >> 512-345-7219
          >
          >
          >


          --
          John S. Ascher, Ph.D.
          Bee Database Project Manager
          Division of Invertebrate Zoology
          American Museum of Natural History
          Central Park West @ 79th St.
          New York, NY 10024-5192
          work phone: 212-496-3447
          mobile phone: 917-407-0378
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