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Re: [beemonitoring] The Soap Collecting Jar

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  • Sam Droege
    Jack: I agree, in general...the soapy water collection does destroy all pollen and that has been a valuable contribution to bee natural history and thus
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 4, 2008
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      Jack:

      I agree, in general...the soapy water collection does destroy all pollen and that has been a valuable contribution to bee natural history and thus collecting fresh specimens and placing them in the museum are always to be encouraged.  However, much of what we are doing are general surveys of relatively common species (though with surprises) and our limiting factor is usually time, so we are attracted to some of the bowl techniques.  In reality I almost always use both.  I put out bowls in the early A.M. and net collect through the day.  Each collection technique emphasizes a different fraction of the bee community.  The advantage of bowls for general surveys is that they are more replicable than following the ramblings, skill, and proclivities of a person with a net.  

      In the end it depends on what your project and goals as to what combination you use.  In many circumstances a nice array of Malaise traps is really the ticket...but then these have a separate set of issues.

      sam

      Sam Droege  Sam_Droege@...                      
      w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
      USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
      BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville, MD  20705
      Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov


      "...and though the holes were rather small, they had to count them all..."

      A day in the life.
      Sargent Peppers
      Beatles



      P Please don't print this e-mail unless really needed.


      Jack Neff <jlnatctmi@...>
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      Sam: I understand the utility of pan traps and the
      like for certain types of surveys, but I regret the
      generation of so many specimens with no biological
      information beyond it was there then. For bee
      biology, this is a step backwards. Hand collecting
      directly into soapy water, or alcohol or whatever, is
      a useful emergency technique but I would hope it would
      would not become a primary collecting method. The
      pollen that bees collect is valuable data and removing
      it as a matter of course, either as a byproduct of the
      collecting technique, or intentionally, as a matter
      of aesthetics or ease of identification, is something
      that should be discouraged. A rigorous analysis of
      diet breadth in bees requires pollen analysis and this
      is impossible for specimens that have been through the
      washer.

      best

      Jack
      ---
      frozenbeedoc@... wrote:

      > Hey Sam,
      >
      > I figured that out last summer (soap in collecting
      > jars). Forgot to tell
      > you. Worked well for me. I used a small jelly
      > canning jar. Easy to carry and
      > use.
      >
      > Anita
      >

      John L. Neff
      Central Texas Melittological Institute
      7307 Running Rope
      Austin,TX 78731 USA
      512-345-7219


    • T'ai Roulston
      ... Sam: A lot of people are repeating statements similar to this, casually and in submitted manuscripts. Certainly, any standardized collecting is more
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 4, 2008
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         The advantage of bowls for general surveys is that they are more replicable than following the ramblings, skill, and proclivities of a person with a net.   


        Sam:

        A lot of people are repeating statements similar to this, casually and in submitted manuscripts.  Certainly, any standardized collecting is more repeatable than non-standardized collecting (the rambling, skill, and proclivity part). Is pan-trapping more repeatable than standardized intensive netting? It probably is, but I haven't seen the data yet. There can certainly be big differences among collectors in catching small or speedy insects, but the variability of pan trap catch with placement can be extraordinary as well.  Repeatability is likely to be strongly related to sampling effort (number of collectors/collecting time or number of pan traps) plus variation related to biases in method. None of these factors are well documented or, to my knowledge, easily generalized at this point.

        T'ai

        T'ai Roulston
        Associate Director Blandy Experimental Farm
        Research Assoc. Prof. Environmental Sciences
        University of Virginia
        400 Blandy Farm Lane
        Boyce, VA 22620
        540 837-1758 ext 276

      • Sam Droege
        T ai: True, I am generalizing based on experience rather than on data. Other than some rather small references in papers to differences in observers in
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 5, 2008
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          T'ai:

          True, I am generalizing based on experience rather than on data.  Other than some rather small references in papers to differences in observers in netting capture rates I can't think of anything published that looks at comparisons in variability in any set of different techniques.   Maybe some design like this:

          Perhaps use 6 collectors (3 experienced, 3 neophyte) and 18 Study Sites (Vernal bottomlands, transmission lines, or fields, 1 Hectare but perhaps larger so their is a larger collection of bees to sample from)


          Day 1.  Observers are assigned to the 18 sites (3 each) in which they set out bowls in the early a.m. and then net for 1 hour during the middle of the day.
          Day 2. Observers do an additional 3 sites allocated in such as way that all pairs of observers have been matched.  (note that there would be 3 extra sites on day 2)

          It would be nice to repeat this at another 18 sites so that the number of bees wouldn't be exhausted at a site.,.... or perhaps better... simply wait several weeks and do it again on the same sites

          That's my initial idea.  I have a feeling there is a more parsimonious design out there somewhere but can't think of it at this point.   I am also concerned that because we are dealing with day, site, observer, and technique factors here that our degrees of freedom might be eaten up.  This would be a grand summer student project. .... How about doing it at Blandy this summer?  I would be glad to come down to participate.

          sam

                                                         
          Sam Droege  Sam_Droege@...                      
          w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
          USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
          BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville, MD  20705
          Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov


          Albert Einstein
          “Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.”


          P Please don't print this e-mail unless really needed.


          T'ai Roulston <thr8z@...>
          Sent by: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com

          06/04/2008 09:35 PM

          Please respond to
          beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com

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          Re: [beemonitoring] The Soap Collecting Jar






           The advantage of bowls for general surveys is that they are more replicable than following the ramblings, skill, and proclivities of a person with a net.   



          Sam:

          A lot of people are repeating statements similar to this, casually and in submitted manuscripts.  Certainly, any standardized collecting is more repeatable than non-standardized collecting (the rambling, skill, and proclivity part). Is pan-trapping more repeatable than standardized intensive netting? It probably is, but I haven't seen the data yet. There can certainly be big differences among collectors in catching small or speedy insects, but the variability of pan trap catch with placement can be extraordinary as well.  Repeatability is likely to be strongly related to sampling effort (number of collectors/collecting time or number of pan traps) plus variation related to biases in method. None of these factors are well documented or, to my knowledge, easily generalized at this point.

          T'ai

          T'ai Roulston
          Associate Director Blandy Experimental Farm
          Research Assoc. Prof. Environmental Sciences
          University of Virginia
          400 Blandy Farm Lane
          Boyce, VA 22620
          540 837-1758 ext 276
          thr8z@...


        • T'ai Roulston
          Sam: Your basic design is reasonable and it would be great to have someone do something similar sometime. An hour of netting is definitely not sufficient and
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 5, 2008
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            Sam:

            Your basic design is reasonable and it would be great to have someone do something similar sometime. An hour of netting is definitely not sufficient and there is no doubt that bowls would win hands-down for repeatability in most circumstances with such limited net collecting. The hour that people use to accompany bowls now is not for a real faunal survey but rather to get some things that bowls miss. In my current community surveys with nets, I use something on the order of 10 collecting hours per day per site (with a substantial crew, total duration depending on the number of plant species of interest). Obviously, only people with substantial resources (human and otherwise) and a need for data of faunal associations can deploy that kind of effort. What is really needed is a comparison of sampling efforts (how many bowls are necessary --data you probably have in spades-- for species accumulation curves or other metrics to flatten) and how many net hours of sampling by single collectors are required for the same saturation estimates. When that is established, the variability of collectors can be thrown in to understand the relationship between sampling effort and method bias.  I train novel net collectors every year for intensive field work. I don't have systematic data for comparisons of individual collectors (I make sure that everyone collects on all plants to avoid systematic person x plant collection biases), but I am impressed with how quickly people get good at collecting. I think that most but not all biases from individual collectors can be controlled by sampling protocols. Selection of method should always depend on the ultimate goal for the data and which types of biases and limitations are most tolerable.

            T'ai

            On Jun 5, 2008, at 8:26 AM, Sam Droege wrote:


            T'ai: 

            True, I am generalizing based on experience rather than on data.  Other than some rather small references in papers to differences in observers in netting capture rates I can't think of anything published that looks at comparisons in variability in any set of different techniques.   Maybe some design like this: 

            Perhaps use 6 collectors (3 experienced, 3 neophyte) and 18 Study Sites (Vernal bottomlands, transmission lines, or fields, 1 Hectare but perhaps larger so their is a larger collection of bees to sample from) 


            Day 1.  Observers are assigned to the 18 sites (3 each) in which they set out bowls in the early a.m. and then net for 1 hour during the middle of the day. 
            Day 2. Observers do an additional 3 sites allocated in such as way that all pairs of observers have been matched.  (note that there would be 3 extra sites on day 2) 

            It would be nice to repeat this at another 18 sites so that the number of bees wouldn't be exhausted at a site.,.... or perhaps better... simply wait several weeks and do it again on the same sites 

            That's my initial idea.  I have a feeling there is a more parsimonious design out there somewhere but can't think of it at this point.   I am also concerned that because we are dealing with day, site, observer, and technique factors here that our degrees of freedom might be eaten up.  This would be a grand summer student project. .... How about doing it at Blandy this summer?  I would be glad to come down to participate. 

            sam 

                                                           
            Sam Droege  Sam_Droege@USGS. GOV                      
            w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
            USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
            BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville, MD  20705
            Http://www.pwrc. usgs.gov



            Albert Einstein
            “Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.”
             

            P Please don't print this e-mail unless really needed. 


            T'ai Roulston <thr8z@virginia. edu> 
            Sent by: beemonitoring@ yahoogroups. com

            06/04/2008 09:35 PM

            Please respond to
            beemonitoring@ yahoogroups. com

            To
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            Re: [beemonitoring] The Soap Collecting Jar






             The advantage of bowls for general surveys is that they are more replicable than following the ramblings, skill, and proclivities of a person with a net.   



            Sam: 

            A lot of people are repeating statements similar to this, casually and in submitted manuscripts.  Certainly, any standardized collecting is more repeatable than non-standardized collecting (the rambling, skill, and proclivity part). Is pan-trapping more repeatable than standardized intensive netting? It probably is, but I haven't seen the data yet. There can certainly be big differences among collectors in catching small or speedy insects, but the variability of pan trap catch with placement can be extraordinary as well.  Repeatability is likely to be strongly related to sampling effort (number of collectors/collecti ng time or number of pan traps) plus variation related to biases in method. None of these factors are well documented or, to my knowledge, easily generalized at this point. 

            T'ai 

            T'ai Roulston 
            Associate Director Blandy Experimental Farm 
            Research Assoc. Prof. Environmental Sciences 
            University of Virginia 
            400 Blandy Farm Lane 
            Boyce, VA 22620 
            540 837-1758 ext 276 
            thr8z@virginia. edu 




            T'ai Roulston
            Associate Director, Blandy Experimental Farm
            Research Assoc. Professor, Dept Envi Sci. University of Virginia
            400 Blandy Farm Lane
            Boyce, VA 22620

          • Jerry_Freilich@nps.gov
            I ve been following this thread with some interest. I ve always felt sympathy for E.O Wilson who turned to ants because of a vision problem resulting from an
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 5, 2008
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              I've been following this thread with some interest. I've always felt
              sympathy for E.O Wilson who turned to ants because of a vision problem
              resulting from an accident. I have no excuse as good as Uncle Ed's, but
              I've always felt that I don't have very good hand/eye coordination in
              netting small, fast-moving bees. When I'm with other bee folks, I always
              miss the things they catch. I've tended to use pan collectors and other
              bulk traps simply because I'm not good at the other stuff despite having
              had excellent teachers. I've always assumed that the pan collecting may be
              more repeatable but that perhaps I'm missing the "good stuff" I'd only be
              able to get by being an expert, and by being fast.

              T'ai's comments on teaching novices and inter-observer differences rang a
              bell. I worked on a similar problem years ago when screening people to
              search for desert tortoises. In a controlled experiment on replicated
              plots, I found that certain people were markedly better than others at
              finding tortoises, but that previous experience at doing this work was NOT
              a predictor of that ability. In other words, there were pronounced
              differences among people in developing a search image, staying focused, or
              discerning patterns, but that previous experience did not necessarily help
              with this. These results suggested that spending some time to find those
              talented searchers would be worthwhile. I also tried using a page from
              "Where's Waldo?" as a quick surrogate to see if it was any predictor. I.e.,
              to see if people with better Waldo finding skills would be better tortoise
              finders. That didn't work out, but I still think that people vary widely in
              their ability to pick up on things and that that talent should be sought
              out and rewarded. The skill sets used with bees and tortoises may be very
              different but I bet that the underlying principles are likely the same.
              While researching the paper I found that there were relatively few studies
              on inter-observer bias. (Freilich, J.E. and E.L. LaRue. 1998. Importance of
              observer experience in finding desert tortoises. Journal of Wildlife
              Management 62 (2): 590-596.)

              Jerry
              __________________________
              Jerry Freilich, Ph.D.
              Research Coordinator, Olympic National Park
              Coordinator, North Coast & Cascades Research Learning Network
              Olympic National Park
              600 E. Park Ave.
              Port Angeles, WA 98362

              Phone: 360-565-3082
              Fax: 360-565-3070
              Cell: 360-477-3338
              Jerry_Freilich@...

              "This is the most beautiful place on earth,
              there are many such places..."
              Edward Abbey
              ___________________________



              T'ai Roulston
              <thr8z@virginia.e
              du> To
              Sent by: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
              beemonitoring@yah cc
              oogroups.com
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              Re: [beemonitoring] The Soap
              06/05/2008 09:01 Collecting Jar
              AM AST


              Please respond to
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              Sam:



              Your basic design is reasonable and it would be great to have someone do something
              similar sometime. An hour of netting is definitely not sufficient and there is no
              doubt that bowls would win hands-down for repeatability in most circumstances with
              such limited net collecting. The hour that people use to accompany bowls now is
              not for a real faunal survey but rather to get some things that bowls miss. In my
              current community surveys with nets, I use something on the order of 10 collecting
              hours per day per site (with a substantial crew, total duration depending on the
              number of plant species of interest). Obviously, only people with substantial
              resources (human and otherwise) and a need for data of faunal associations can
              deploy that kind of effort. What is really needed is a comparison of sampling
              efforts (how many bowls are necessary --data you probably have in spades-- for
              species accumulation curves or other metrics to flatten) and how many net hours of
              sampling by single collectors are required for the same saturation estimates. When
              that is established, the variability of collectors can be thrown in to understand
              the relationship between sampling effort and method bias. I train novel net
              collectors every year for intensive field work. I don't have systematic data for
              comparisons of individual collectors (I make sure that everyone collects on all
              plants to avoid systematic person x plant collection biases), but I am impressed
              with how quickly people get good at collecting. I think that most but not all
              biases from individual collectors can be controlled by sampling protocols.
              Selection of method should always depend on the ultimate goal for the data and
              which types of biases and limitations are most tolerable.

              T'ai

              On Jun 5, 2008, at 8:26 AM, Sam Droege wrote:




              T'ai:

              True, I am generalizing based on experience rather than on data. Other than
              some rather small references in papers to differences in observers in
              netting capture rates I can't think of anything published that looks at
              comparisons in variability in any set of different techniques. Maybe some
              design like this:

              Perhaps use 6 collectors (3 experienced, 3 neophyte) and 18 Study Sites
              (Vernal bottomlands, transmission lines, or fields, 1 Hectare but perhaps
              larger so their is a larger collection of bees to sample from)


              Day 1. Observers are assigned to the 18 sites (3 each) in which they set
              out bowls in the early a.m. and then net for 1 hour during the middle of the
              day.
              Day 2. Observers do an additional 3 sites allocated in such as way that all
              pairs of observers have been matched. (note that there would be 3 extra
              sites on day 2)

              It would be nice to repeat this at another 18 sites so that the number of
              bees wouldn't be exhausted at a site.,.... or perhaps better... simply wait
              several weeks and do it again on the same sites

              That's my initial idea. I have a feeling there is a more parsimonious
              design out there somewhere but can't think of it at this point. I am also
              concerned that because we are dealing with day, site, observer, and
              technique factors here that our degrees of freedom might be eaten up. This
              would be a grand summer student project. .... How about doing it at Blandy
              this summer? I would be glad to come down to participate.

              sam


              Sam Droege Sam_Droege@...
              w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
              USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
              BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville, MD 20705
              Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov




              Albert Einstein
              “Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts
              can be counted.”

              P Please don't print this e-mail unless really needed.




              T'ai Roulston <thr8z@...>
              Sent by: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com


              06/04/2008 09:35 PM





              Please respond to
              beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com



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              Collecting Jar










              The advantage of bowls for general surveys is that they are more replicable
              than following the ramblings, skill, and proclivities of a person with a
              net.




              Sam:

              A lot of people are repeating statements similar to this, casually and in
              submitted manuscripts. Certainly, any standardized collecting is more
              repeatable than non-standardized collecting (the rambling, skill, and
              proclivity part). Is pan-trapping more repeatable than standardized
              intensive netting? It probably is, but I haven't seen the data yet. There
              can certainly be big differences among collectors in catching small or
              speedy insects, but the variability of pan trap catch with placement can be
              extraordinary as well. Repeatability is likely to be strongly related to
              sampling effort (number of collectors/collecting time or number of pan
              traps) plus variation related to biases in method. None of these factors are
              well documented or, to my knowledge, easily generalized at this point.

              T'ai

              T'ai Roulston
              Associate Director Blandy Experimental Farm
              Research Assoc. Prof. Environmental Sciences
              University of Virginia
              400 Blandy Farm Lane
              Boyce, VA 22620
              540 837-1758 ext 276
              thr8z@...







              T'ai Roulston
              Associate Director, Blandy Experimental Farm
              Research Assoc. Professor, Dept Envi Sci. University of Virginia
              400 Blandy Farm Lane
              Boyce, VA 22620
            • Sam Droege
              Jerry: Very interesting comparison. There is quite a large literature on inter-observer differences now in bird counts, particularly the common point count
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 5, 2008
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                Jerry:

                Very interesting comparison.  There is quite a large literature on inter-observer differences now in bird counts, particularly the common point count system.  The results demonstrate that, no surprise, there are quite large differences in abilities to detect birds among observers.  Due to all of that we almost always model in an observer co-variable when looking at trend data.  A similar thing is generally to be expected in any skill-based system of counting or catching wildlife as your turtle work clearly shows (very interesting there wasn't a clear association with training!).  I think the main feature in the case of bowls is the more interesting notion of whether people somehow affect capture rates due to a way they may be laying out the bowls and also whether bowl captures are more variable due to differential capture rates under different conditions.

                In the later regard we have 2 projects this summer that hopefully will bear on the topic of variability of captures due to extrinsic factors.

                1.  Patty String will be working in Northern Virginia on stormwater ponds.  These ubiquitous ponds are mown once a year through a county contract and she has been collecting permissions from the various landowners to do a before/after/control/treatment experiment.  The general idea is to see if capture rates change (generally thought to increase) after mowing due to a loss of nectar resources and perhaps an increased visibility.

                2.  Leo Shapiro will be working with Region 5 (Virginia to New England) National Wildlife Refuges to look at variability of bowl captures across and among refuges on a set of fields on a fixed day and in some cases across several days.  This will give us some idea about how bowl captures of bees vary from field to field which will give us some sense of sample size allocation, biodiversity estimation, uniformity (or lack there of) of regional populations of bees, etc.  Leo emailed today and we will be talking tomorrow about the possibility of adding a separate net component, but since we only got one third of what we requested, we likely won't be able to do that much.

                sam


                Sam Droege  Sam_Droege@...                      
                w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
                USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
                BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville, MD  20705
                Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov


                Excuse my wandering.
                How can one be orderly with this?
                It's like counting leaves in a garden,
                along with the sound notes of partridges,
                and crows.
                Sometimes organization
                and computation become absurd.
                                   Rumi
                P Please don't print this e-mail unless really needed.


                Jerry_Freilich@...
                Sent by: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com

                06/05/2008 11:43 AM

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                beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com

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                Re: [beemonitoring] The Soap Collecting Jar





                I've been following this thread with some interest. I've always felt
                sympathy for E.O Wilson who turned to ants because of a vision problem
                resulting from an accident. I have no excuse as good as Uncle Ed's, but
                I've always felt that I don't have very good hand/eye coordination in
                netting small, fast-moving bees. When I'm with other bee folks, I always
                miss the things they catch. I've tended to use pan collectors and other
                bulk traps simply because I'm not good at the other stuff despite having
                had excellent teachers. I've always assumed that the pan collecting may be
                more repeatable but that perhaps I'm missing the "good stuff" I'd only be
                able to get by being an expert, and by being fast.

                T'ai's comments on teaching novices and inter-observer differences rang a
                bell. I worked on a similar problem years ago when screening people to
                search for desert tortoises. In a controlled experiment on replicated
                plots, I found that certain people were markedly better than others at
                finding tortoises, but that previous experience at doing this work was NOT
                a predictor of that ability. In other words, there were pronounced
                differences among people in developing a search image, staying focused, or
                discerning patterns, but that previous experience did not necessarily help
                with this. These results suggested that spending some time to find those
                talented searchers would be worthwhile. I also tried using a page from
                "Where's Waldo?" as a quick surrogate to see if it was any predictor. I.e.,
                to see if people with better Waldo finding skills would be better tortoise
                finders. That didn't work out, but I still think that people vary widely in
                their ability to pick up on things and that that talent should be sought
                out and rewarded. The skill sets used with bees and tortoises may be very
                different but I bet that the underlying principles are likely the same.
                While researching the paper I found that there were relatively few studies
                on inter-observer bias. (Freilich, J.E. and E.L. LaRue. 1998. Importance of
                observer experience in finding desert tortoises. Journal of Wildlife
                Management 62 (2): 590-596.)

                Jerry
                __________________________
                Jerry Freilich, Ph.D.
                Research Coordinator, Olympic National Park
                Coordinator, North Coast & Cascades Research Learning Network
                Olympic National Park
                600 E. Park Ave.
                Port Angeles, WA 98362

                Phone: 360-565-3082
                Fax: 360-565-3070
                Cell: 360-477-3338

                Jerry_Freilich@...

                "This is the most beautiful place on earth,
                there are many such places..."
                Edward Abbey
                ___________________________



                T'ai Roulston
                <
                thr8z@virginia.e
                du> To
                Sent by:
                beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
                beemonitoring@yah cc
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                Re: [beemonitoring] The Soap
                06/05/2008 09:01 Collecting Jar
                AM AST


                Please respond to
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                Sam:



                Your basic design is reasonable and it would be great to have someone do something
                similar sometime. An hour of netting is definitely not sufficient and there is no
                doubt that bowls would win hands-down for repeatability in most circumstances with
                such limited net collecting. The hour that people use to accompany bowls now is
                not for a real faunal survey but rather to get some things that bowls miss. In my
                current community surveys with nets, I use something on the order of 10 collecting
                hours per day per site (with a substantial crew, total duration depending on the
                number of plant species of interest). Obviously, only people with substantial
                resources (human and otherwise) and a need for data of faunal associations can
                deploy that kind of effort. What is really needed is a comparison of sampling
                efforts (how many bowls are necessary --data you probably have in spades-- for
                species accumulation curves or other metrics to flatten) and how many net hours of
                sampling by single collectors are required for the same saturation estimates. When
                that is established, the variability of collectors can be thrown in to understand
                the relationship between sampling effort and method bias. I train novel net
                collectors every year for intensive field work. I don't have systematic data for
                comparisons of individual collectors (I make sure that everyone collects on all
                plants to avoid systematic person x plant collection biases), but I am impressed
                with how quickly people get good at collecting. I think that most but not all
                biases from individual collectors can be controlled by sampling protocols.
                Selection of method should always depend on the ultimate goal for the data and
                which types of biases and limitations are most tolerable.

                T'ai

                On Jun 5, 2008, at 8:26 AM, Sam Droege wrote:




                T'ai:

                True, I am generalizing based on experience rather than on data. Other than
                some rather small references in papers to differences in observers in
                netting capture rates I can't think of anything published that looks at
                comparisons in variability in any set of different techniques. Maybe some
                design like this:

                Perhaps use 6 collectors (3 experienced, 3 neophyte) and 18 Study Sites
                (Vernal bottomlands, transmission lines, or fields, 1 Hectare but perhaps
                larger so their is a larger collection of bees to sample from)


                Day 1. Observers are assigned to the 18 sites (3 each) in which they set
                out bowls in the early a.m. and then net for 1 hour during the middle of the
                day.
                Day 2. Observers do an additional 3 sites allocated in such as way that all
                pairs of observers have been matched. (note that there would be 3 extra
                sites on day 2)

                It would be nice to repeat this at another 18 sites so that the number of
                bees wouldn't be exhausted at a site.,.... or perhaps better... simply wait
                several weeks and do it again on the same sites

                That's my initial idea. I have a feeling there is a more parsimonious
                design out there somewhere but can't think of it at this point. I am also
                concerned that because we are dealing with day, site, observer, and
                technique factors here that our degrees of freedom might be eaten up. This
                would be a grand summer student project. .... How about doing it at Blandy
                this summer? I would be glad to come down to participate.

                sam


                Sam Droege
                Sam_Droege@...
                w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
                USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
                BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville, MD 20705

                Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov




                Albert Einstein
                “Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts
                can be counted.”

                P Please don't print this e-mail unless really needed.




                T'ai Roulston <
                thr8z@...>
                Sent by:
                beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com


                06/04/2008 09:35 PM





                Please respond to

                beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com



                To

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                cc

                Subject
                Re: [beemonitoring] The Soap
                Collecting Jar










                The advantage of bowls for general surveys is that they are more replicable
                than following the ramblings, skill, and proclivities of a person with a
                net.




                Sam:

                A lot of people are repeating statements similar to this, casually and in
                submitted manuscripts. Certainly, any standardized collecting is more
                repeatable than non-standardized collecting (the rambling, skill, and
                proclivity part). Is pan-trapping more repeatable than standardized
                intensive netting? It probably is, but I haven't seen the data yet. There
                can certainly be big differences among collectors in catching small or
                speedy insects, but the variability of pan trap catch with placement can be
                extraordinary as well. Repeatability is likely to be strongly related to
                sampling effort (number of collectors/collecting time or number of pan
                traps) plus variation related to biases in method. None of these factors are
                well documented or, to my knowledge, easily generalized at this point.

                T'ai

                T'ai Roulston
                Associate Director Blandy Experimental Farm
                Research Assoc. Prof. Environmental Sciences
                University of Virginia
                400 Blandy Farm Lane
                Boyce, VA 22620
                540 837-1758 ext 276

                thr8z@...







                T'ai Roulston
                Associate Director, Blandy Experimental Farm
                Research Assoc. Professor, Dept Envi Sci. University of Virginia
                400 Blandy Farm Lane
                Boyce, VA 22620



              • frozenbeedoc@cs.com
                Sam et al. RE washing pollen off of soapy water collected bees. It takes some concerted efforts to shake up these bees in soapy water for washing off the
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 5, 2008
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                  Sam et al.

                  RE washing pollen off of soapy water collected bees.  It takes some concerted efforts to shake up these bees in soapy water for washing off the pollen.   Vigorous shaking for at least one minute, and that doesn't always do it.  If one is just netting a bee and dropping it into soapy water for killing, I doubt you would lose all of the pollen.  Maybe a pellet, yes, but not whats in the hairs.

                  Anita  Collins
                  USDA, ARS retired
                • OOWONBS@Netscape.net
                  Anita, Is this valid for bees that have been in soapy water all day, bounced around in a shirt pocket, or just those... under an hour? Also, if my
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 6, 2008
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                    Anita,
                    Is this valid for bees that have been in soapy water "all day,"
                    bounced around in a shirt pocket, or just those... "under an hour?"

                    Also, if my observation is correct, congrats on the best
                    self-contained post, not requiring a Reply-To tag-a-log, much less,
                    multiples tag-a-longs, as observed, (and as noted by YahOops
                    auto-count of 11 messages in this Digest, below noted,)
                    though the Digest enumerated just 5. (I think they missed
                    some that were stuck together, LOL! )

                    Your post was the most eeasily, observed...! ;>)))
                    BillSF9c

                    >Sam et al.

                    >RE washing pollen off of soapy water collected bees. It takes some
                    concerted
                    efforts to shake up these bees in soapy water for washing off the
                    pollen.
                    Vigorous shaking for at least one minute, and that doesn't always do
                    it. If
                    one is just netting a bee and dropping it into soapy water for killing,
                    I doubt
                    you would lose all of the pollen. Maybe a pellet, yes, but not whats
                    in the
                    hairs.

                    >Anita Collins
                    >USDA, ARS retired

                    Messages in this topic (11)
                  • frozenbeedoc@cs.com
                    BillSF9c et al., Your question: Is this valid for bees that have been in soapy water all day, bounced around in a shirt pocket, or just those... under an
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 6, 2008
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                      BillSF9c et al.,

                      Your question:
                      Is this valid for bees that have been in soapy water "all day,"
                      bounced around in a shirt pocket, or just those... "under an hour?"

                      I think it's true even for those bounced around in a shirt pocket.  Unless of course you're doing some major jumping jacks.  I collect what's in the bowls (in soapy water 24-28 hrs), carry it around in netting for half hour or so, until I get back to the "lab in the car" and then put them in alcohol, whirl-paked.  More bouncing around in alcohol.  And you still have to vigorously shake for at least 60 secs in a small fruit jar in soapy water again.  Plus a number of rinses.  Even then, I still have some pollen in some corners, expecially the most hairy items. 

                      Enough to id the pollen?  I'd think so. 

                      Best,
                      Anita

                      Your post was the most eeasily, observed...! ;>)))
                      BillSF9c

                      >Sam et al.

                      >RE washing pollen off of soapy water collected bees. It takes some
                      concerted
                      efforts to shake up these bees in soapy water for washing off the
                      pollen.
                      Vigorous shaking for at least one minute, and that doesn't always do
                      it. If
                      one is just netting a bee and dropping it into soapy water for killing,
                      I doubt
                      you would lose all of the pollen. Maybe a pellet, yes, but not whats
                      in the
                      hairs.

                      >Anita Collins
                      >USDA, ARS retired


                    • David_r_smith@fws.gov
                      After reading about the concern regarding pollen loss when bees are collected and transported, I have to ask; Are ther standardized methods for collecting
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 9, 2008
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                        After reading about the concern regarding pollen loss when bees are collected and transported, I have to ask; Are ther standardized methods for collecting pollen fron collected bees and what references are out there to identify pollen (especially from the western United States).
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