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RE: [Possible SPAM] Re: [beemonitoring] Alternative Methodology Question

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  • David Inouye
    The kind of re-fillable cannisters used for paintball guns might also be a good source of CO2.
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 8, 2012
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      The kind of re-fillable cannisters used for paintball guns might also
      be a good source of CO2.

      At 07:16 PM 11/8/2012, you wrote:
      >Jessica,
      >I have used compressed CO2 to knock out netted bees and then IDd
      >them in the field to genus. THis sometimes required a hand
      >lens. With a good prior knowledge of which species are common in
      >your area, this might be enough. Furthermore, I was able to train
      >undergraduates in all of the common bee genera so that each could
      >reliably ID to genus with this method, sometimes to species. I even
      >discovered that compressed air canisters, such as used for dusting
      >electronics, work pretty well and are cheaper and more available
      >than CO2 canisters. Caution must be used not to freeze the bees,
      >especially bumble bees.
      >
      >Karen Goodell
      >Ohio State University
      >________________________________________
      >From: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com [beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com]
      >On Behalf Of John Plant [john.plant3@...]
      >Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 1:09 PM
      >To: Jack Neff; Jessica Beckham; beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: [beemonitoring] Alternative Methodology Question
      >
      >Jessica,
      >I think it is very commendable to keep the killings down to a moderate level.
      >I have had some luck in refrigerating bees and putting each in their
      >own zip lock bag. This gives me a few minutes before they recover
      >and I can usually figure out the genus, in some cases even the
      >species, but mostly I need much more time.
      >This may not be practicable for field work.
      >Let us know if you come up with a good solution.
      >John Plant
      >
      >From: Jack Neff<mailto:jlnatctmi@...>
      >Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 19:05
      >To: Jessica Beckham<mailto:jessbeck47@...> ;
      >beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com<mailto:beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com>
      >Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] Alternative Methodology Question
      >
      >
      >
      >Jessica: There are no reliable no-kill methods for assessing bee
      >diversity at the species level. With practice, it is not hard to
      >recognize most genera without killing them, either while in flight
      >or capturing and examining them with a handlens (holding females
      >with a gloved hand) but this takes a lot of experience and will not
      >be easy for a novice. Various folks try to identify things via high
      >quality macrophotos of live insects but even these will be
      >insufficient for many taxa since the relevant characters often are
      >not visible in the pictures. Some people have tried chilling live
      >bees and examining them under a scope but in the absence of vouchers
      >or a proven ability to identify things this way, I have no idea how
      >reliable this technique is.
      >
      >best
      >
      >John L. Neff
      >Central Texas Melittological Institute
      >7307 Running Rope
      >Austin,TX 78731 USA
      >512-345-7219
      >________________________________
      >From: Jessica Beckham <jessbeck47@...>
      >To: "beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com" <beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com>
      >Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2012 10:41 AM
      >Subject: [beemonitoring] Alternative Methodology Question
      >
      >
      >Hello All,
      >
      >I am a PhD student who is developing a project to assess bee
      >pollinator diversity in urban gardens in my area (Denton, Texas). I
      >understand that the best methods for assessing bee diversity involve
      >collection of bees via hand netting and bowl traps, especially for a
      >novice at bee identification like myself. However, I am wondering
      >if there are any accepted no-kill methods for assessing bee
      >diversity. The reason is that, although I have had multiple local
      >urban gardeners and homeowners express interest in my project, some
      >are hesitant to participate because they realize that bees are
      >important resources and they do not want to help reduce the already
      >limited populations. To an extent I can see this point and am
      >thrilled that citizens are aware of the situation that our
      >pollinators are facing. I thought I would address this group to see
      >if anyone has used/knows of methodology for assessing bee diversity
      >without killing bees. Furthermore, has anyone dealt with similar experiences?
      >
      >Thanks in advance!
      >
      >Jessica Beckham
      >Ph.D Student
      >University of North Texas, Institute of Applied Science
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >------------------------------------
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • Jessica Beckham
      Hello All, I am a PhD student who is developing a project to assess bee pollinator diversity in urban gardens in my area (Denton, Texas).  I understand that
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 8, 2012
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        Hello All,

        I am a PhD student who is developing a project to assess bee pollinator diversity in urban gardens in my area (Denton, Texas).  I understand that the best methods for assessing bee diversity involve collection of bees via hand netting and bowl traps, especially for a novice at bee identification like myself.  However, I am wondering if there are any accepted no-kill methods for assessing bee diversity. The reason is that, although I have had multiple local urban gardeners and homeowners express interest in my project, some are hesitant to participate because they realize that bees are important resources and they do not want to help reduce the already limited populations.  To an extent I can see this point and am thrilled that citizens are aware of the situation that our pollinators are facing.  I thought I would address this group to see if anyone has used/knows of methodology for assessing bee diversity without killing bees.  Furthermore, has anyone dealt with similar experiences?   

        Thanks in advance!

        Jessica Beckham
        Ph.D Student
        University of North Texas, Institute of Applied Science

      • Dan Fiscus
        Jessica, I tried to do some video work due to my similar interest for no-kill approach. We worked to ID pollinators of black cohosh and did eventually end up
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 8, 2012
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          Jessica,

          I tried to do some video work due to my similar interest for no-kill approach. We worked to ID pollinators of black cohosh and did eventually end up catching and killing many bees and had to do that for ID and pollen analysis reasons. But I felt it was beneficial to try some tests and see how far we could get with just video. We posted a few of the ones we did on youtube at the link below. This was our first try and I think much better videos easily could be made. I had also dreamed of the ultra-high-speed videos where even better individual bee detail would be visible, but we never tried that. One expert taxonomist seemed to me to be able to ID at least some of the bees from these videos to the genus level. He seemed to suggest ID to species is pretty much impossible, but again these were very crude videos.

          Some info...best wishes for your work...

          http://www.youtube.com/user/dafiscus

          Dan Fiscus



          On 11/8/2012 11:41 AM, Jessica Beckham wrote:
           
          Hello All,

          I am a PhD student who is developing a project to assess bee pollinator diversity in urban gardens in my area (Denton, Texas).  I understand that the best methods for assessing bee diversity involve collection of bees via hand netting and bowl traps, especially for a novice at bee identification like myself.  However, I am wondering if there are any accepted no-kill methods for assessing bee diversity. The reason is that, although I have had multiple local urban gardeners and homeowners express interest in my project, some are hesitant to participate because they realize that bees are important resources and they do not want to help reduce the already limited populations.  To an extent I can see this point and am thrilled that citizens are aware of the situation that our pollinators are facing.  I thought I would address this group to see if anyone has used/knows of methodology for assessing bee diversity without killing bees.  Furthermore, has anyone dealt with similar experiences?   

          Thanks in advance!

          Jessica Beckham
          Ph.D Student
          University of North Texas, Institute of Applied Science



          -- 
          Dan Fiscus
          Biology Department
          Frostburg State University
          308 Compton Science Center
          Frostburg, MD 21532 USA
          301-687-4170
          dafiscus@...
        • Jack Neff
          Jessica:  There are no reliable no-kill methods for assessing bee diversity at the species level.  With practice, it is not hard to recognize most genera
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 8, 2012
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            Jessica:  There are no reliable no-kill methods for assessing bee diversity at the species level.  With practice, it is not hard to recognize most genera without killing them, either while in flight or capturing and examining them with a handlens (holding females with a gloved hand) but this takes a lot of experience and will not be easy for a novice.  Various folks try to identify things via high quality macrophotos of live insects but even these will be insufficient for many taxa since the relevant characters often are not visible in the pictures.  Some people have tried chilling live bees and examining them under a scope but in the absence of vouchers or a proven ability to identify things this way, I have no idea how reliable this technique is.

            best
             
            John L. Neff
            Central Texas Melittological Institute
            7307 Running Rope
            Austin,TX 78731 USA
            512-345-7219

            From: Jessica Beckham <jessbeck47@...>
            To: "beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com" <beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2012 10:41 AM
            Subject: [beemonitoring] Alternative Methodology Question

             
            Hello All,

            I am a PhD student who is developing a project to assess bee pollinator diversity in urban gardens in my area (Denton, Texas).  I understand that the best methods for assessing bee diversity involve collection of bees via hand netting and bowl traps, especially for a novice at bee identification like myself.  However, I am wondering if there are any accepted no-kill methods for assessing bee diversity. The reason is that, although I have had multiple local urban gardeners and homeowners express interest in my project, some are hesitant to participate because they realize that bees are important resources and they do not want to help reduce the already limited populations.  To an extent I can see this point and am thrilled that citizens are aware of the situation that our pollinators are facing.  I thought I would address this group to see if anyone has used/knows of methodology for assessing bee diversity without killing bees.  Furthermore, has anyone dealt with similar experiences?   

            Thanks in advance!

            Jessica Beckham
            Ph.D Student
            University of North Texas, Institute of Applied Science



          • John Plant
            Jessica, I think it is very commendable to keep the killings down to a moderate level. I have had some luck in refrigerating bees and putting each in their own
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 8, 2012
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              Jessica,

              I think it is very commendable to keep the killings down to a moderate level.

              I have had some luck in refrigerating bees and putting each in their own zip lock bag. This gives me a few minutes before they recover and I can usually figure out the genus, in some cases even the species, but mostly I need much more time.

              This may not be practicable for field work.

              Let us know if you come up with a good solution.

              John Plant

               
              From: Jack Neff
              Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 19:05
              Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] Alternative Methodology Question
               
               

              Jessica:  There are no reliable no-kill methods for assessing bee diversity at the species level.  With practice, it is not hard to recognize most genera without killing them, either while in flight or capturing and examining them with a handlens (holding females with a gloved hand) but this takes a lot of experience and will not be easy for a novice.  Various folks try to identify things via high quality macrophotos of live insects but even these will be insufficient for many taxa since the relevant characters often are not visible in the pictures.  Some people have tried chilling live bees and examining them under a scope but in the absence of vouchers or a proven ability to identify things this way, I have no idea how reliable this technique is.

              best
               
              John L. Neff
              Central Texas Melittological Institute
              7307 Running Rope
              Austin,TX 78731 USA
              512-345-7219

              From: Jessica Beckham <jessbeck47@...>
              To: "beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com" <beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2012 10:41 AM
              Subject: [beemonitoring] Alternative Methodology Question
               
               
              Hello All,
               
              I am a PhD student who is developing a project to assess bee pollinator diversity in urban gardens in my area (Denton, Texas).  I understand that the best methods for assessing bee diversity involve collection of bees via hand netting and bowl traps, especially for a novice at bee identification like myself.  However, I am wondering if there are any accepted no-kill methods for assessing bee diversity. The reason is that, although I have had multiple local urban gardeners and homeowners express interest in my project, some are hesitant to participate because they realize that bees are important resources and they do not want to help reduce the already limited populations.  To an extent I can see this point and am thrilled that citizens are aware of the situation that our pollinators are facing.  I thought I would address this group to see if anyone has used/knows of methodology for assessing bee diversity without killing bees.  Furthermore, has anyone dealt with similar experiences?  

              Thanks in advance!

              Jessica Beckham
              Ph.D Student
              University of North Texas, Institute of Applied Science
               


            • Goodell, Karen
              Jessica, I have used compressed CO2 to knock out netted bees and then IDd them in the field to genus. THis sometimes required a hand lens. With a good prior
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 8, 2012
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                Jessica,
                I have used compressed CO2 to knock out netted bees and then IDd them in the field to genus. THis sometimes required a hand lens. With a good prior knowledge of which species are common in your area, this might be enough. Furthermore, I was able to train undergraduates in all of the common bee genera so that each could reliably ID to genus with this method, sometimes to species. I even discovered that compressed air canisters, such as used for dusting electronics, work pretty well and are cheaper and more available than CO2 canisters. Caution must be used not to freeze the bees, especially bumble bees.

                Karen Goodell
                Ohio State University
                ________________________________________
                From: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com [beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Plant [john.plant3@...]
                Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 1:09 PM
                To: Jack Neff; Jessica Beckham; beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: [beemonitoring] Alternative Methodology Question

                Jessica,
                I think it is very commendable to keep the killings down to a moderate level.
                I have had some luck in refrigerating bees and putting each in their own zip lock bag. This gives me a few minutes before they recover and I can usually figure out the genus, in some cases even the species, but mostly I need much more time.
                This may not be practicable for field work.
                Let us know if you come up with a good solution.
                John Plant

                From: Jack Neff<mailto:jlnatctmi@...>
                Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 19:05
                To: Jessica Beckham<mailto:jessbeck47@...> ; beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com<mailto:beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] Alternative Methodology Question



                Jessica: There are no reliable no-kill methods for assessing bee diversity at the species level. With practice, it is not hard to recognize most genera without killing them, either while in flight or capturing and examining them with a handlens (holding females with a gloved hand) but this takes a lot of experience and will not be easy for a novice. Various folks try to identify things via high quality macrophotos of live insects but even these will be insufficient for many taxa since the relevant characters often are not visible in the pictures. Some people have tried chilling live bees and examining them under a scope but in the absence of vouchers or a proven ability to identify things this way, I have no idea how reliable this technique is.

                best

                John L. Neff
                Central Texas Melittological Institute
                7307 Running Rope
                Austin,TX 78731 USA
                512-345-7219
                ________________________________
                From: Jessica Beckham <jessbeck47@...>
                To: "beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com" <beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2012 10:41 AM
                Subject: [beemonitoring] Alternative Methodology Question


                Hello All,

                I am a PhD student who is developing a project to assess bee pollinator diversity in urban gardens in my area (Denton, Texas). I understand that the best methods for assessing bee diversity involve collection of bees via hand netting and bowl traps, especially for a novice at bee identification like myself. However, I am wondering if there are any accepted no-kill methods for assessing bee diversity. The reason is that, although I have had multiple local urban gardeners and homeowners express interest in my project, some are hesitant to participate because they realize that bees are important resources and they do not want to help reduce the already limited populations. To an extent I can see this point and am thrilled that citizens are aware of the situation that our pollinators are facing. I thought I would address this group to see if anyone has used/knows of methodology for assessing bee diversity without killing bees. Furthermore, has anyone dealt with similar experiences?

                Thanks in advance!

                Jessica Beckham
                Ph.D Student
                University of North Texas, Institute of Applied Science
              • Greenstone, Matt
                Although I m not a bee biologist - I m on this list because I have used bee bowls to collect parasitic wasps - I hope that what I say will be helpful. The sad
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 8, 2012
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                  Although I’m not a bee biologist – I’m on this list because I have used bee bowls to collect parasitic wasps – I hope that what I say will be helpful.

                   

                  The sad irony of being a Biologist of any kind - of studying, and loving, living things - is that most life science disciplines require the killing of one’s subjects at some point, sometimes often, and when working on communities of organisms, almost continuously. This is especially true for arthropods, and will remain true until the day that the non-invasive Star-Trek-style “tri-corder” is invented. The best we can hope for at this point is to keep the killing to a minimum, and possibly to foreswear work on populations facing extinction.

                   

                  A few months ago I gave a short presentation to a group of volunteers on my parasitoid work that included an image of a whirl-pak crammed full of all of the native bees collected in 72 hours from a standard Sam Droege array of nine traps, explaining this profusion as an unfortunate “by-catch” – terrible word, almost as bad as “collateral damage!” - of my work on parasitoids. They were appalled and so was I (in my defence, the bees will all be identified and used for a publication on the native bees of the area).

                   

                  What one really needs to know in a case like this, and for one’s peace of mind,  is how large a dent we are making in local bee populations. I suspect that in floristically diverse habitats the impact is extremely small. Perhaps someone on the List can refer us to some representative density bee data?

                   

                  Respectfully,

                   

                  Matt Greenstone

                   

                  P.S. As a DNA bar-coder, I firmly believe that the day of the tri-corder is not far off. We just need to be able to read base-pair sequences without hurting the organism. If we can identify the molecules in stars 10 billion light-years away, surely we’ll crack this problem as well; let us hope in Jessica’s lifetime.

                   

                  mhg

                   

                  From: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com [mailto:beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jessica Beckham
                  Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 11:41 AM
                  To: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [beemonitoring] Alternative Methodology Question

                   

                   

                  Hello All,

                   

                  I am a PhD student who is developing a project to assess bee pollinator diversity in urban gardens in my area (Denton, Texas).  I understand that the best methods for assessing bee diversity involve collection of bees via hand netting and bowl traps, especially for a novice at bee identification like myself.  However, I am wondering if there are any accepted no-kill methods for assessing bee diversity. The reason is that, although I have had multiple local urban gardeners and homeowners express interest in my project, some are hesitant to participate because they realize that bees are important resources and they do not want to help reduce the already limited populations.  To an extent I can see this point and am thrilled that citizens are aware of the situation that our pollinators are facing.  I thought I would address this group to see if anyone has used/knows of methodology for assessing bee diversity without killing bees.  Furthermore, has anyone dealt with similar experiences?   

                   

                  Thanks in advance!

                   

                  Jessica Beckham

                  Ph.D Student

                  University of North Texas, Institute of Applied Science

                   





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                • Virginia L Scott
                  Hi Jessica As others have said, to get accurate *species* level bee identifications, you have to collect specimens, but I work in a Museum, so obviously I
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 8, 2012
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                    Hi Jessica

                     

                    As others have said, to get accurate *species* level bee identifications, you have to collect specimens, but I work in a Museum, so obviously I don’t have a problem with killing insects. 

                     

                    I’d just like to put a spin on this thread and advocate for the dead.  Collecting specimens not only provides you with material that can be accurately identified for your study, it also provides vouchers that other researchers can refer back to as taxonomy advances (which it inevitably will).  But those same specimens can be used in a myriad of other ways.  We loan specimens all the time for taxonomic and systematic study.  This is no longer simply based on morphology, but increasingly involves DNA extraction.  While an exceptional photograph may show the morphology needed to identify a specimen to species, it will never provide DNA.  For that, you need specimens.  Catalogues and species lists for given areas are based on archived specimens.  Without those specimens, how would we gain the knowledge necessary to compile these baseline data?  Consider the fact that museum specimens are used by ecologists for the basis of their research and natural heritage programs to determine what may need to be protected.  Additionally, specimens are used to educate the public through exhibits, open houses, and identification services and undergraduates through behind-the-scenes collections tours and even employment opportunities.  We often host art students and faculty who request (limited) access to photograph or sketch specimens.  One of our Bombus nevadensis is the basis for artwork, soon to be appearing on a bus shelter across from campus.  Talk about public education!

                     

                    Museums document history through artifacts and specimens, and we must keep in mind that today is tomorrow’s history.  If we stop collecting, we ultimately loose our history.  I would highly recommend getting in touch with a collection that could serve as a repository for your specimens prior to doing any collecting so that the specimens can be collected and preserved in a way (and with complete label data) as to provide for a variety of future uses. 

                     

                    That being said, I do occasionally run into people who do not want me collecting on their property.  That is their right, and I respect that.  At the same time, I don’t waste my time and effort pretending to do science when I can’t collect voucher specimens or provide accurate identifications (usually with the help of others).

                     

                    Just a Museum perspective,

                    Va

                    Virginia Scott

                    Entomology – Collections Manager

                    University of Colorado Museum of Natural History

                    265 UCB – MCOL

                    Boulder, CO 80309-0265

                    Work: 303-492-6270

                    http://cumuseum.colorado.edu/Research/Entomology/ColoBees/

                     

                    From: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com [mailto:beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jessica Beckham
                    Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 9:41 AM
                    To: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [beemonitoring] Alternative Methodology Question

                     

                     

                    Hello All,

                     

                    I am a PhD student who is developing a project to assess bee pollinator diversity in urban gardens in my area (Denton, Texas).  I understand that the best methods for assessing bee diversity involve collection of bees via hand netting and bowl traps, especially for a novice at bee identification like myself.  However, I am wondering if there are any accepted no-kill methods for assessing bee diversity. The reason is that, although I have had multiple local urban gardeners and homeowners express interest in my project, some are hesitant to participate because they realize that bees are important resources and they do not want to help reduce the already limited populations.  To an extent I can see this point and am thrilled that citizens are aware of the situation that our pollinators are facing.  I thought I would address this group to see if anyone has used/knows of methodology for assessing bee diversity without killing bees.  Furthermore, has anyone dealt with similar experiences?   

                     

                    Thanks in advance!

                     

                    Jessica Beckham

                    Ph.D Student

                    University of North Texas, Institute of Applied Science

                     

                  • Sam Droege
                    Hi Jessica You have seen some nice thoughtful replies to your questions from the list and undoubtedly you have gotten more offline. Similar to what Jack has
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 8, 2012
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                      Hi Jessica

                      You have seen some nice thoughtful replies to your questions from the list and undoubtedly you have gotten more offline.

                      Similar to what Jack has mentioned, I would say that if you want to document bee diversity you will have to be working with specimens that have been killed simply because their ID is difficult and nobody can identify all bee captured to the species level in an area without having them on a pin.

                      We all have to wrestle with the moral aspects of killing our study animals, and justify it to our funders and collaborators, but see some of the lines of reasoning below that I use that I think diminish the need to worry about our impacts on the population.  These are meant as simple bullet points to use when thinking about the topic.



                      1.  We often run studies where we run bowls in the same place for several days.  We always continue to get bees throughout the time period, usually the last run is about half the first.
                      2.  The average bee has a flight period of 5 weeks, thus bowls only capture one fraction of all the bees that come out throughout the year.
                      3.  Many of the bees captures are Lasioglossum and Halictus, those groups are Eusocial so many of the bees captured are not reproductive
                      4.  Solitary bees (99% of the catch) make a series of cells, each cell is independent of the other and not usually tended by the female and if the female dies (from bowls or whatever) the cells created are "good to go" thus, on average, only half a captured female's potential progeny output are affected
                      5.  Males do not provide parental care of any kind and thus their captures have little impact on the next generation.
                      6.  Overall mortality of bees from bowls compared to the thousands of bees present in a given field is almost certainly not additive but compensated for through higher births, lower deaths, and immigration.  No studies have shown a next year impact from sampling, for example.
                      7.  The number of bees in any area is high and sources of mortality from predators, bad weather, pesticides, parasites, disease, and cuckoo bees far outweigh mortality from a bowl sample.


                      That is the rational response to , but it does not really speak to the emotional responses we have to the killing of things we study.  Yet, we have to be careful, perhaps, in the lines of reasoning that we apply to this topic.  There is a completely understandable tendency to transfer the complex and well reasoned value systems we have created for humans, and for some, all vertebrate animals, whole cloth to that of bees.  However, to apply an animal rights system based on vertebrates to the killing of bees for scientific study is difficult to do consistently for all insects in our lives.   It is even more difficult to demonstrate philosophically that we should try to diminish our killing of bees, but that it is ok to actively kill other insects.  This is simply because we overlook the many invertebrates we kill every day.     For example, the Dutch have documented that they kill billions of insects each month simply from insects striking their licence plates as they drive.  This is nothing new (other than the quantification of the deaths)  but is the death of insects something that most people think about in their internal formulation of whether to drive somewhere or not?  So, in a system that tries to reduce the unintended death of bees, (requiring a high cost in time, statistical power, and other resources) what of looking at those deaths we generate from driving our vehicles, mowing our grass, the use of pesticides (organic or not), and washing our clothes (killing many millions of dust mites over our life time) and ask why we do not apply these values equally.

                      This is a good topic, and it clearly creates internal reactions in all of us, but there are many interesting levels to consider that I think have not been considered fully in the past.  In the end, we all have to make up our own minds and since we are all different there will always be many strategies at play in the world of bee study.  Not killing bees because it makes us uncomfortable is a completely valid reason to look at alternatives...it is the inspection and balancing of the big picture that continues to fascinates me.

                      sam

                                                                    
                      Sam Droege  sdroege@...                     
                      w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
                      USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
                      BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville, MD  20705
                      Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov
                                                                    
                                Death is like the insect
                                Menacing the tree,
                                Competent to kill it,
                                But decoyed may be.


                                Bait it with the balsam,
                                Seek it with the knife,
                                Baffle, if it cost you
                                Everything in life.


                                Then, if it have burrowed
                                Out of reach of skill,
                                Ring the tree and leave it,--
                                'T is the vermin's will.
                                       -Dickinson




                      From:Jessica Beckham <jessbeck47@...>
                      To:"beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com" <beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date:11/08/2012 11:42 AM
                      Subject:[beemonitoring] Alternative Methodology Question
                      Sent by:beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com





                       

                      Hello All,


                      I am a PhD student who is developing a project to assess bee pollinator diversity in urban gardens in my area (Denton, Texas).  I understand that the best methods for assessing bee diversity involve collection of bees via hand netting and bowl traps, especially for a novice at bee identification like myself.  However, I am wondering if there are any accepted no-kill methods for assessing bee diversity. The reason is that, although I have had multiple local urban gardeners and homeowners express interest in my project, some are hesitant to participate because they realize that bees are important resources and they do not want to help reduce the already limited populations.  To an extent I can see this point and am thrilled that citizens are aware of the situation that our pollinators are facing.  I thought I would address this group to see if anyone has used/knows of methodology for assessing bee diversity without killing bees.  Furthermore, has anyone dealt with similar experiences?  

                      Thanks in advance!

                      Jessica Beckham
                      Ph.D Student
                      University of North Texas, Institute of Applied Science



                    • David_r_smith@fws.gov
                      I couldn t agree more with Virginia s recent post on the value of collecting the voulcher specimens. There are some bees I could probably ID if they were live
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 8, 2012
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                        I couldn't agree more with Virginia's recent post on the value of collecting the voulcher specimens.  There are some bees I could probably ID if they were live and bouncing around in a plastic vial or even chilled.  But I wouldn't bet the ranch on those IDs.  A diversity study is only as good as the accuracy of the species ID.  I send specimens to studbnts working on genera revisions, Bombus specimens to a student here study parasites.  

                        Are you certain that the native bees that are currently using urban gardens in Denton, Texas have limited populations?  Another thing to consider is how many gardens are there in Denton that support native bees, how many bees are you sampling over how long.  Just exactly how many bees across the landscape will you eventually be removing?  On a per garden basis, it probably isn't that many.




                        Jessica Beckham <jessbeck47@...>
                        Sent by: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com

                        11/08/2012 09:42 AM

                        Please respond to
                        Jessica Beckham <jessbeck47@...>

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                        Subject
                        [beemonitoring] Alternative Methodology Question





                         

                        Hello All,


                        I am a PhD student who is developing a project to assess bee pollinator diversity in urban gardens in my area (Denton, Texas).  I understand that the best methods for assessing bee diversity involve collection of bees via hand netting and bowl traps, especially for a novice at bee identification like myself.  However, I am wondering if there are any accepted no-kill methods for assessing bee diversity. The reason is that, although I have had multiple local urban gardeners and homeowners express interest in my project, some are hesitant to participate because they realize that bees are important resources and they do not want to help reduce the already limited populations.  To an extent I can see this point and am thrilled that citizens are aware of the situation that our pollinators are facing.  I thought I would address this group to see if anyone has used/knows of methodology for assessing bee diversity without killing bees.  Furthermore, has anyone dealt with similar experiences?  

                        Thanks in advance!

                        Jessica Beckham
                        Ph.D Student
                        University of North Texas, Institute of Applied Science


                      • Rykken, Jessica
                        This is a pretty good article on the general topic of killing insects for research. http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/bsc/pdf/whywekillbugs.pdf Jessica Rykken
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 8, 2012
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                          This is a pretty good article on the general topic of killing insects for research.
                           
                          Jessica Rykken
                          Research Associate
                          Museum of Comparative Zoology
                          Harvard University
                          26 Oxford St.
                          Cambridge, MA 02138
                          phone:  617-496-1221 or 413-665-0412
                          fax:  617-495-5667
                           
                           
                        • Kvisberglien Evie Christiansen
                          I have seen that the experienced field workers here use compressed CO2, the kind used for bicycles (used for filling flat tires). They are available in any
                          Message 12 of 15 , Nov 8, 2012
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                            I have seen that the experienced field workers here use compressed CO2, the kind used for bicycles (used for filling flat tires). They are available in any decent size sports store and are in a handy size. It knocks the bumble bee out for long enough to identify it, and it seems unharmed when it takes off again.

                             

                            They simply put the bumble bee in a dram glass (with a few holes in the lid). Insert the tip of the CO2-container (small and handheld, fits in your pocket) and give the bumble bee a doze. I haven’t seen it tested on bees, but I suppose it works on them as well.

                             

                            The ones that can’t be identified in the field can be brought home for proper id.

                             

                            I plan to use this method next summer for my next project J

                             

                             


                            Best regards
                            Evie Christiansen Kvisberglien

                            Norwegian Public Roads Administration 

                            Before printing, think about the environment

                             

                          • Jessica Beckham
                            Dear Beemonitoring Group, I just wanted to send a thank you out for all of the thoughtful, informative responses that y all provided!  What an intelligent
                            Message 13 of 15 , Nov 9, 2012
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                              Dear Beemonitoring Group,

                              I just wanted to send a thank you out for all of the thoughtful, informative responses that y'all provided!  What an intelligent group of people -- what I wouldn't give to have a cup of coffee with each of you!  I have truly enjoyed reading the responses and am still synthesizing the ideas, philosophies, and techniques.  I will certainly be trying out some of the suggested alternative methods as I work on my project.  

                              Additionally, I appreciate the lines of reasoning that were given regarding the collection and use of dead specimens.  Being able to explain the benefits of preserved specimens, as well as posing the logical argument that we each likely kill more insects with our cars than with bowls or nets, should prove useful in the (maybe inevitable?) event that I must explain to citizens why I am collecting and killing bees.  

                              And as for the question that came up a couple of times regarding whether bees in my area are truly declining -- the truth is that we don't actually know, as baseline data are not, to the best of our knowledge, available for our area.  (If someone knows differently, please let me know!)      

                              Thank you all so much.

                              Sincerely,
                              Jessica Beckham



                              From: Kvisberglien Evie Christiansen <evie.christiansen@...>
                              To: "beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com" <beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Friday, November 9, 2012 1:59 AM
                              Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] Alternative Methodology Question

                               
                              I have seen that the experienced field workers here use compressed CO2, the kind used for bicycles (used for filling flat tires). They are available in any decent size sports store and are in a handy size. It knocks the bumble bee out for long enough to identify it, and it seems unharmed when it takes off again.
                               
                              They simply put the bumble bee in a dram glass (with a few holes in the lid). Insert the tip of the CO2-container (small and handheld, fits in your pocket) and give the bumble bee a doze. I haven’t seen it tested on bees, but I suppose it works on them as well.
                               
                              The ones that can’t be identified in the field can be brought home for proper id.
                               
                              I plan to use this method next summer for my next project J
                               
                               

                              Best regards
                              Evie Christiansen Kvisberglien

                              Norwegian Public Roads Administration 

                              Before printing, think about the environment
                               


                            • elaineceleste
                              RE knocking bees out temporarily for ID......I remember some studies from the 90s that found increased larval ejection in bumble bee colonies following CO2
                              Message 14 of 15 , Nov 10, 2012
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                                RE knocking bees out temporarily for ID......I remember some studies from the 90s that found increased larval ejection in bumble bee colonies following CO2 narcosis of workers. I haven't looked into this lately to know if people figured out all of what was going on there, but I've been avoiding its use to be on the safe side.
                                -Elaine

                                Elaine Evans
                                PhD Student, Dept of Entomology
                                University of Minnesota
                                219 Hodson Hall, 1980 Folwell Ave
                                Saint Paul MN 55108
                                612-625-5764 evan0155@...
                                www.befriendingbumblebees.com
                              • Anita M. Collins
                                Honey bee queens are routinely anesthetized with CO2 for artificial insemination and then retreated a day later to help start oviposition. with workers it does
                                Message 15 of 15 , Nov 11, 2012
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                                  Honey bee queens are routinely anesthetized with CO2 for artificial insemination and then retreated a day later to help start oviposition.  with workers it does seem to remove short term memory, like location of nectar plants. 
                                  Anita Collins
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research.
                                  Albert Einstein
                                   
                                  On 11/10/12, elaineceleste<fuzzybumblebee@...> wrote:
                                   
                                   

                                  RE knocking bees out temporarily for ID......I remember some studies from the 90s that found increased larval ejection in bumble bee colonies following CO2 narcosis of workers. I haven't looked into this lately to know if people figured out all of what was going on there, but I've been avoiding its use to be on the safe side.
                                  -Elaine

                                  Elaine Evans
                                  PhD Student, Dept of Entomology
                                  University of Minnesota
                                  219 Hodson Hall, 1980 Folwell Ave
                                  Saint Paul MN 55108
                                  612-625-5764 evan0155@...
                                  www.befriendingbumblebees.com

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