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Re: [beemonitoring] RE: use of new Squash Bee Trap?

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  • Jack Neff
    Vince and Jim: I agree. What is the point in passively collecting large numbers of a well known and easily monitored species? Pan traps may have their uses
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 3, 2010
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      Vince and Jim:  I agree.  What is the point in passively collecting large numbers of a well known and easily monitored species?  Pan traps may have their uses in sampling unknown faunas, but without calibration, they can't provide useful data on either absolute or relative abundance.  It's a technique that look rigorous but isn't.

      best

      Jack
       
      John L. Neff
      Central Texas Melittological Institute
      7307 Running Rope
      Austin,TX 78731 USA
      512-345-7219



      From: Vincent Tepedino <Vince.Tepedino@...>
      To: Jim Cane (USDA-ARS) <Jim.Cane@...>; "beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com" <beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 1:19:32 PM
      Subject: [beemonitoring] RE: use of new Squash Bee Trap?

       

      Thank you James for speaking up for squash bees. 

       

      I too was put off by this “promising” new technique for sending Pepos and who knows what else to the pin-yard but after my mini-eruption a while back, over what seems to be mindless collecting, I’ve been silent due to lack of support (a bit but not much).  I suppose that’s because I’m getting old and senile and semi-mental over bees.  And then my good buddy and former boss (who shall remain unnamed unless he chooses to out himself) always gives me the hoary line about more bees being killed on car grills in a minute, etc., etc.  And I wonder, even if that’s true, how does it justify slaughtering more for questionable reasons.  To echo James’ question:  How does it?

       

      Vince Tepedino

      USDA ARS (retired)

      Bee Biology & Systematics Lab

      Dept of Biology

      Utah State University

      Logan UT 84322-5310

       

      vince.tepedino@...

      435-797-2559

      435-797-0461 (FAX)

       

      In a democracy, the delusion that would elsewhere be poured into the ears of the prince, is poured into the those of the people (James Fenimore Cooper)


      From: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com [mailto: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Cane, Jim
      Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 11:17 AM
      To: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [beemonitoring] RE: use of new Squash Bee Trap?

       

       

      Folks- I am curious (trying not to be appalled) as to why someone would want to kill Peponapis bees en masse with pan trapping?  What can’t be learned

      from surveying for them at the very flowers that are being used to bait them to pan traps?  Certainly there is a lot that can’t be learned

      from merely killing the bees through passive sampling.  Voucher specimens I can understand.  I could say more, but will

      reserve judgment, knowing that I often don’t see all the angles to an issue and would like to learn the justification in this case.

       

      Yours,

       

      Jim Cane

       


    • Sharon Muczynski
      Bee Group, I too, have been concerned about unnecessary killing of bees. As a matter of fact I did my whole insect collection for Entomology last year with
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 3, 2010
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        Bee Group,

        I too, have been concerned about unnecessary killing of bees. As a matter of fact I did my whole insect collection for Entomology last year with only found dead insects. Everyone in my class thought I was odd and eccentric to care so much about a handful of bugs. I think all life is precious and not to be wasted. It is nice to hear some similar sentiments. I do realize, however, that it is difficult- if not impossible- to identify many species by sight.

        Best,
        Sharon Muczynski LEED® AP
        Graduate Student in Conservation Ecology


        On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:17 PM, Cane, Jim wrote:

         

        Folks- I am curious (trying not to be appalled) as to why someone would want to kill Peponapis bees en masse with pan trapping?  What can’t be learned

        from surveying for them at the very flowers that are being used to bait them to pan traps?  Certainly there is a lot that can’t be learned

        from merely killing the bees through passive sampling.  Voucher specimens I can understand.  I could say more, but will

        reserve judgment, knowing that I often don’t see all the angles to an issue and would like to learn the justification in this case.

         

        Yours,

         

        Jim Cane

         



      • John S. Ascher
        Certain bee species and a very few bee faunas are well known and can be repeatedly sampled, so that adequate information can be obtained using observation or
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 3, 2010
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          Certain bee species and a very few bee faunas are well known and can be
          repeatedly sampled, so that adequate information can be obtained using
          observation or inefficient, highly selective collecting methods. In these
          limited circumstances large-scale collecting ("killing") may be
          unwarranted.

          However, most bee species are poorly known and most bee faunas are
          inadequately characterized if not entirely unknown. The only efficient way
          to remedy this is to collect bees on a large scale using highly effective
          methods. Alternatively, we can remain ignorant or waste carbon on repeat
          visits (spewing pollutants and smashing bees against our windshield en
          route) that may not have been required had more effective techniques been
          employed.

          Those who oppose "unnecessary killing" on principal have done immense harm
          to bee populations by preventing control of the deer that eat their host
          plants. They have a lot more hemolymph on their hands then do insect
          collectors.

          "I did my whole insect collection for Entomology last year with only found
          dead insects"

          I'm sure it was amusing but had little scientific value.

          Jim, I'm afraid that many people cannot distinguish Peponapis from the
          smaller Xenoglossa (see Bugguide), and until they learn to do so they will
          need to document their identifications with vouchers (photo or specimen).
          Consubgeneric Xenoglossa can be quite tricky to separate (as are Peponapis
          where multiple species occur), so if these are to be separated even more
          problematic to rely on observation or sparse vouchers. Thus, squash bee
          identification remains a challenge even though these are among the better
          known bees.

          John



          > Bee Group,
          >
          > I too, have been concerned about unnecessary killing of bees. As a matter
          > of fact I did my whole insect collection for Entomology last year with
          > only found dead insects. Everyone in my class thought I was odd and
          > eccentric to care so much about a handful of bugs. I think all life is
          > precious and not to be wasted. It is nice to hear some similar sentiments.
          > I do realize, however, that it is difficult- if not impossible- to
          > identify many species by sight.
          >
          > Best,
          > Sharon Muczynski LEED® AP
          > Graduate Student in Conservation Ecology
          >
          >
          > On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:17 PM, Cane, Jim wrote:
          >
          >>
          >> Folks- I am curious (trying not to be appalled) as to why someone would
          >> want to kill Peponapis bees en masse with pan trapping? What can’t be
          >> learned
          >>
          >> from surveying for them at the very flowers that are being used to bait
          >> them to pan traps? Certainly there is a lot that can’t be learned
          >>
          >> from merely killing the bees through passive sampling. Voucher
          >> specimens I can understand. I could say more, but will
          >>
          >> reserve judgment, knowing that I often don’t see all the angles to an
          >> issue and would like to learn the justification in this case.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Yours,
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Jim Cane
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >


          --
          John S. Ascher, Ph.D.
          Bee Database Project Manager
          Division of Invertebrate Zoology
          American Museum of Natural History
          Central Park West @ 79th St.
          New York, NY 10024-5192
          work phone: 212-496-3447
          mobile phone: 917-407-0378
        • Vincent Tepedino
          ________________________________ From: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com [mailto:beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John S. Ascher Sent: Friday, September
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 3, 2010
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            From: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com [mailto: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of John S. Ascher
            Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 3:03 PM
            To: Sharon Muczynski
            Cc: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] RE: use of new Squash Bee Trap?

             

             

            >>>John, you didn’t direct this to me but I’m going to respond anyway.

            Certain bee species and a very few bee faunas are well known and can be
            repeatedly sampled, so that adequate information can be obtained using
            observation or inefficient, highly selective collecting methods. In these
            limited circumstances large-scale collecting ("killing") may be
            unwarranted.

            >>>And that’s all that is being said here, at least by me.  It depends on what your objectives are and how scientifically worthy they are and if there are alternative ways to gather the data.  If the objective is simply to use some pins and fill a bunch of drawers, then your objectives are, in my opinion, unworthy (I could go further but won’t).  

            However, most bee species are poorly known and most bee faunas are
            inadequately characterized if not entirely unknown. The only efficient way
            to remedy this is to collect bees on a large scale using highly effective
            methods. Alternatively, we can remain ignorant or waste carbon on repeat
            visits (spewing pollutants and smashing bees against our windshield en
            route) that may not have been required had more effective techniques been
            employed.

            >>>So you mean to suggest that manic collectors, those who buy t-shirts that say “I collect, therefore I am”, don’t repeat their collecting expeditions, or “spew pollutants” or “waste carbon” (angels are they?).  I suppose they do their collecting while hovering or from skateboards.  Again, I don’t know anyone, least of all me, who reasonably objects to collecting for the purposes you outline (lord knows I’ve done much of it myself) but that is hardly what we’re talking about.  Don’t erect straw men.  We’re talking about collecting simply for the sake of collecting, or collecting that cannot justify its purported purpose, or collecting that puts bee populations in local areas at risk for no good purpose.

            Those who oppose "unnecessary killing" on principal have done immense harm
            to bee populations by preventing control of the deer that eat their host
            plants. They have a lot more hemolymph on their hands then do insect
            collectors.

            >>>I too have remarked upon the high correlation between opponents of bee killing and opponents of deer control.  Tell me again: who did that work? 

            "I did my whole insect collection for Entomology last year with only found
            dead insects"

            I'm sure it was amusing but had little scientific value.

            >>>I doubt the purpose was for the immediate advancement of science or for amusement; it was for a class.

            Jim, I'm afraid that many people cannot distinguish Peponapis from the
            smaller Xenoglossa (see Bugguide), and until they learn to do so they will
            need to document their identifications with vouchers (photo or specimen).
            Consubgeneric Xenoglossa can be quite tricky to separate (as are Peponapis
            where multiple species occur), so if these are to be separated even more
            problematic to rely on observation or sparse vouchers. Thus, squash bee
            identification remains a challenge even though these are among the better
            known bees.

            I’ll let Jim respond if he wishes.

             

            Vince T.


            John

            > Bee Group,
            >
            > I too, have been concerned about unnecessary killing of bees. As a matter
            > of fact I did my whole insect collection for Entomology last year with
            > only found dead insects. Everyone in my class thought I was odd and
            > eccentric to care so much about a handful of bugs. I think all life is
            > precious and not to be wasted. It is nice to hear some similar sentiments.
            > I do realize, however, that it is difficult- if not impossible- to
            > identify many species by sight.
            >
            > Best,
            > Sharon Muczynski LEED® AP
            > Graduate Student in Conservation Ecology
            >
            >
            > On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:17 PM, Cane, Jim wrote:
            >
            >>
            >> Folks- I am curious (trying not to be appalled) as to why someone
            would
            >> want to kill Peponapis bees en masse with pan trapping? What
            can’t be
            >> learned
            >>
            >> from surveying for them at the very flowers that are being used to
            bait
            >> them to pan traps? Certainly there is a lot that can’t be
            learned
            >>
            >> from merely killing the bees through passive sampling. Voucher
            >> specimens I can understand. I could say more, but will
            >>
            >> reserve judgment, knowing that I often don’t see all the angles
            to an
            >> issue and would like to learn the justification in this case.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Yours,
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Jim Cane
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >

            --
            John S. Ascher, Ph.D.
            Bee Database Project Manager
            Division of Invertebrate Zoology
            American Museum of Natural History
            Central Park West @ 79th St .
            New York , NY 10024-5192
            work phone: 212-496-3447
            mobile phone: 917-407-0378

          • John S. Ascher
            manic collectors, those who buy t-shirts that say I collect, therefore I am Straw men if I ve ever seen one. Here s another one: If the objective is
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 3, 2010
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              "manic collectors, those who buy t-shirts that say "I collect, therefore I
              am""

              Straw men if I've ever seen one. Here's another one: "If the objective is
              simply to use some pins and fill a bunch of drawers"

              "I doubt the purpose was for the immediate advancement of science or for
              amusement; it was for a class."

              In many areas just about the only records we have of Bombus affinis and
              other species of interest for entire decades (e.g., the 1970s and 1980s)
              are those collected (not found dead) by students for their entomology
              classes. "Responsible" "scientific" collectors (including myself in the
              late 1990s when I was in Ithaca) saw no point in collecting long series of
              such a common bee. If such series existed today they would be extremely
              valuable as they could be used to screen for internal parasites such as
              Nosema and to document baseline population structure prior to declines.

              The long-term value of specimens, and in particular long series of
              specimens, cannot be anticipated.

              "Tell me again: who did that work?"

              I have no idea what this means and suspect I'm not alone among readers of
              this list serve. If you're referring to your work or other particular work
              please do us all a favor and provide the reference.

              Regarding the importance of taking care when identifying squash bees, and
              not assuming that you know a priori which species occur at a site, note
              that Glenn Hall recently found that "The Squash Bee Xenoglossa kansensis
              Cockerell (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Found in Organic Farms in Northern
              Florida" [http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2317/0022-8567-83.1.84%5d was a
              species not previously reported from this "well known" state.

              I live in New York City, long one of the most populated places on earth,
              and regret to report that not a single comprehensive bee collection has
              been made from the greater metropolitan area (Yurlina's studies on Staten
              Island were relatively intensive), and there are essentially no extensive
              collections between the 1930s and recent times. Our best sample, from the
              1890s, consists of only a few hundred specimens, with very few long
              series. Where were the "manic collectors" of bees when we needed them?

              John


              >
              >
              >
              >
              >>
              >>
              >> ________________________________
              >> From: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
              >> [mailto:beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com]
              >> On Behalf Of John S. Ascher
              >> Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 3:03 PM
              >> To: Sharon Muczynski
              >> Cc: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
              >> Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] RE: use of new Squash Bee Trap?
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>>>>John, you didn't direct this to me but I'm going to respond anyway.
              >>
              >> Certain bee species and a very few bee faunas are well known and can be
              >> repeatedly sampled, so that adequate information can be obtained using
              >> observation or inefficient, highly selective collecting methods. In
              >> these
              >> limited circumstances large-scale collecting ("killing") may be
              >> unwarranted.
              >>
              >>>>>And that's all that is being said here, at least by me. It depends on
              >>>>> what your objectives are and how scientifically worthy they are and
              >>>>> if
              >>>>> there are alternative ways to gather the data. If the objective is
              >>>>> simply to use some pins and fill a bunch of drawers, then your
              >>>>> objectives are, in my opinion, unworthy (I could go further but
              >>>>> won't).
              >>
              >> However, most bee species are poorly known and most bee faunas are
              >> inadequately characterized if not entirely unknown. The only efficient
              >> way
              >> to remedy this is to collect bees on a large scale using highly
              >> effective
              >> methods. Alternatively, we can remain ignorant or waste carbon on repeat
              >> visits (spewing pollutants and smashing bees against our windshield en
              >> route) that may not have been required had more effective techniques
              >> been
              >> employed.
              >>
              >>>>>So you mean to suggest that manic collectors, those who buy t-shirts
              >>>>> that say "I collect, therefore I am", don't repeat their collecting
              >>>>> expeditions, or "spew pollutants" or "waste carbon" (angels are
              >>>>> they?).
              >>>>> I suppose they do their collecting while hovering or from
              >>>>> skateboards.
              >>>>> Again, I don't know anyone, least of all me, who reasonably objects
              >>>>> to
              >>>>> collecting for the purposes you outline (lord knows I've done much of
              >>>>> it myself) but that is hardly what we're talking about. Don't erect
              >>>>> straw men. We're talking about collecting simply for the sake of
              >>>>> collecting, or collecting that cannot justify its purported purpose,
              >>>>> or
              >>>>> collecting that puts bee populations in local areas at risk for no
              >>>>> good
              >>>>> purpose.
              >>
              >> Those who oppose "unnecessary killing" on principal have done immense
              >> harm
              >> to bee populations by preventing control of the deer that eat their host
              >> plants. They have a lot more hemolymph on their hands then do insect
              >> collectors.
              >>
              >>>>>I too have remarked upon the high correlation between opponents of bee
              >>>>> killing and opponents of deer control. Tell me again: who did that
              >>>>> work?
              >>
              >> "I did my whole insect collection for Entomology last year with only
              >> found
              >> dead insects"
              >>
              >> I'm sure it was amusing but had little scientific value.
              >>
              >>>>>I doubt the purpose was for the immediate advancement of science or
              >>>>> for
              >>>>> amusement; it was for a class.
              >>
              >> Jim, I'm afraid that many people cannot distinguish Peponapis from the
              >> smaller Xenoglossa (see Bugguide), and until they learn to do so they
              >> will
              >> need to document their identifications with vouchers (photo or
              >> specimen).
              >> Consubgeneric Xenoglossa can be quite tricky to separate (as are
              >> Peponapis
              >> where multiple species occur), so if these are to be separated even more
              >> problematic to rely on observation or sparse vouchers. Thus, squash bee
              >> identification remains a challenge even though these are among the
              >> better
              >> known bees.
              >>
              >>
              >> I'll let Jim respond if he wishes.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Vince T.
              >>
              >> John
              >>
              >>> Bee Group,
              >>>
              >>> I too, have been concerned about unnecessary killing of bees. As a
              >>> matter
              >>> of fact I did my whole insect collection for Entomology last year with
              >>> only found dead insects. Everyone in my class thought I was odd and
              >>> eccentric to care so much about a handful of bugs. I think all life is
              >>> precious and not to be wasted. It is nice to hear some similar
              >>> sentiments.
              >>> I do realize, however, that it is difficult- if not impossible- to
              >>> identify many species by sight.
              >>>
              >>> Best,
              >>> Sharon Muczynski LEED(r) AP
              >>> Graduate Student in Conservation Ecology
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:17 PM, Cane, Jim wrote:
              >>>
              >>>>
              >>>> Folks- I am curious (trying not to be appalled) as to why someone
              >>>> would
              >>>> want to kill Peponapis bees en masse with pan trapping? What can't be
              >>>> learned
              >>>>
              >>>> from surveying for them at the very flowers that are being used to
              >>>> bait
              >>>> them to pan traps? Certainly there is a lot that can't be learned
              >>>>
              >>>> from merely killing the bees through passive sampling. Voucher
              >>>> specimens I can understand. I could say more, but will
              >>>>
              >>>> reserve judgment, knowing that I often don't see all the angles to an
              >>>> issue and would like to learn the justification in this case.
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>> Yours,
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>> Jim Cane
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>
              >> --
              >> John S. Ascher, Ph.D.
              >> Bee Database Project Manager
              >> Division of Invertebrate Zoology
              >> American Museum of Natural History
              >> Central Park West @ 79th St.
              >> New York, NY 10024-5192
              >> work phone: 212-496-3447
              >> mobile phone: 917-407-0378
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              > --
              > John S. Ascher, Ph.D.
              > Bee Database Project Manager
              > Division of Invertebrate Zoology
              > American Museum of Natural History
              > Central Park West @ 79th St.
              > New York, NY 10024-5192
              > work phone: 212-496-3447
              > mobile phone: 917-407-0378
              >


              --
              John S. Ascher, Ph.D.
              Bee Database Project Manager
              Division of Invertebrate Zoology
              American Museum of Natural History
              Central Park West @ 79th St.
              New York, NY 10024-5192
              work phone: 212-496-3447
              mobile phone: 917-407-0378
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