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Re: [beemonitoring] RE: use of new Squash Bee Trap?

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  • David_r_smith@fws.gov
    I thought the original point of using these milk jug traps with the flower blossom was an alternative when study-sanctioned pantrapping is uneffective due to
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 3, 2010
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      I thought the original point of using these milk jug traps with the flower blossom was an alternative when study-sanctioned pantrapping is uneffective due to the perponderance of large blossoms in the area of interest.  Any pantrap, regardless of size, has the potential to trap a lot of bees.

    • Jack Neff
      Vince and Jim: I agree. What is the point in passively collecting large numbers of a well known and easily monitored species? Pan traps may have their uses
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 3, 2010
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        Vince and Jim:  I agree.  What is the point in passively collecting large numbers of a well known and easily monitored species?  Pan traps may have their uses in sampling unknown faunas, but without calibration, they can't provide useful data on either absolute or relative abundance.  It's a technique that look rigorous but isn't.

        best

        Jack
         
        John L. Neff
        Central Texas Melittological Institute
        7307 Running Rope
        Austin,TX 78731 USA
        512-345-7219



        From: Vincent Tepedino <Vince.Tepedino@...>
        To: Jim Cane (USDA-ARS) <Jim.Cane@...>; "beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com" <beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 1:19:32 PM
        Subject: [beemonitoring] RE: use of new Squash Bee Trap?

         

        Thank you James for speaking up for squash bees. 

         

        I too was put off by this “promising” new technique for sending Pepos and who knows what else to the pin-yard but after my mini-eruption a while back, over what seems to be mindless collecting, I’ve been silent due to lack of support (a bit but not much).  I suppose that’s because I’m getting old and senile and semi-mental over bees.  And then my good buddy and former boss (who shall remain unnamed unless he chooses to out himself) always gives me the hoary line about more bees being killed on car grills in a minute, etc., etc.  And I wonder, even if that’s true, how does it justify slaughtering more for questionable reasons.  To echo James’ question:  How does it?

         

        Vince Tepedino

        USDA ARS (retired)

        Bee Biology & Systematics Lab

        Dept of Biology

        Utah State University

        Logan UT 84322-5310

         

        vince.tepedino@...

        435-797-2559

        435-797-0461 (FAX)

         

        In a democracy, the delusion that would elsewhere be poured into the ears of the prince, is poured into the those of the people (James Fenimore Cooper)


        From: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com [mailto: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Cane, Jim
        Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 11:17 AM
        To: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [beemonitoring] RE: use of new Squash Bee Trap?

         

         

        Folks- I am curious (trying not to be appalled) as to why someone would want to kill Peponapis bees en masse with pan trapping?  What can’t be learned

        from surveying for them at the very flowers that are being used to bait them to pan traps?  Certainly there is a lot that can’t be learned

        from merely killing the bees through passive sampling.  Voucher specimens I can understand.  I could say more, but will

        reserve judgment, knowing that I often don’t see all the angles to an issue and would like to learn the justification in this case.

         

        Yours,

         

        Jim Cane

         


      • Sharon Muczynski
        Bee Group, I too, have been concerned about unnecessary killing of bees. As a matter of fact I did my whole insect collection for Entomology last year with
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 3, 2010
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          Bee Group,

          I too, have been concerned about unnecessary killing of bees. As a matter of fact I did my whole insect collection for Entomology last year with only found dead insects. Everyone in my class thought I was odd and eccentric to care so much about a handful of bugs. I think all life is precious and not to be wasted. It is nice to hear some similar sentiments. I do realize, however, that it is difficult- if not impossible- to identify many species by sight.

          Best,
          Sharon Muczynski LEED® AP
          Graduate Student in Conservation Ecology


          On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:17 PM, Cane, Jim wrote:

           

          Folks- I am curious (trying not to be appalled) as to why someone would want to kill Peponapis bees en masse with pan trapping?  What can’t be learned

          from surveying for them at the very flowers that are being used to bait them to pan traps?  Certainly there is a lot that can’t be learned

          from merely killing the bees through passive sampling.  Voucher specimens I can understand.  I could say more, but will

          reserve judgment, knowing that I often don’t see all the angles to an issue and would like to learn the justification in this case.

           

          Yours,

           

          Jim Cane

           



        • John S. Ascher
          Certain bee species and a very few bee faunas are well known and can be repeatedly sampled, so that adequate information can be obtained using observation or
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 3, 2010
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            Certain bee species and a very few bee faunas are well known and can be
            repeatedly sampled, so that adequate information can be obtained using
            observation or inefficient, highly selective collecting methods. In these
            limited circumstances large-scale collecting ("killing") may be
            unwarranted.

            However, most bee species are poorly known and most bee faunas are
            inadequately characterized if not entirely unknown. The only efficient way
            to remedy this is to collect bees on a large scale using highly effective
            methods. Alternatively, we can remain ignorant or waste carbon on repeat
            visits (spewing pollutants and smashing bees against our windshield en
            route) that may not have been required had more effective techniques been
            employed.

            Those who oppose "unnecessary killing" on principal have done immense harm
            to bee populations by preventing control of the deer that eat their host
            plants. They have a lot more hemolymph on their hands then do insect
            collectors.

            "I did my whole insect collection for Entomology last year with only found
            dead insects"

            I'm sure it was amusing but had little scientific value.

            Jim, I'm afraid that many people cannot distinguish Peponapis from the
            smaller Xenoglossa (see Bugguide), and until they learn to do so they will
            need to document their identifications with vouchers (photo or specimen).
            Consubgeneric Xenoglossa can be quite tricky to separate (as are Peponapis
            where multiple species occur), so if these are to be separated even more
            problematic to rely on observation or sparse vouchers. Thus, squash bee
            identification remains a challenge even though these are among the better
            known bees.

            John



            > Bee Group,
            >
            > I too, have been concerned about unnecessary killing of bees. As a matter
            > of fact I did my whole insect collection for Entomology last year with
            > only found dead insects. Everyone in my class thought I was odd and
            > eccentric to care so much about a handful of bugs. I think all life is
            > precious and not to be wasted. It is nice to hear some similar sentiments.
            > I do realize, however, that it is difficult- if not impossible- to
            > identify many species by sight.
            >
            > Best,
            > Sharon Muczynski LEED® AP
            > Graduate Student in Conservation Ecology
            >
            >
            > On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:17 PM, Cane, Jim wrote:
            >
            >>
            >> Folks- I am curious (trying not to be appalled) as to why someone would
            >> want to kill Peponapis bees en masse with pan trapping? What can’t be
            >> learned
            >>
            >> from surveying for them at the very flowers that are being used to bait
            >> them to pan traps? Certainly there is a lot that can’t be learned
            >>
            >> from merely killing the bees through passive sampling. Voucher
            >> specimens I can understand. I could say more, but will
            >>
            >> reserve judgment, knowing that I often don’t see all the angles to an
            >> issue and would like to learn the justification in this case.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Yours,
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Jim Cane
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >


            --
            John S. Ascher, Ph.D.
            Bee Database Project Manager
            Division of Invertebrate Zoology
            American Museum of Natural History
            Central Park West @ 79th St.
            New York, NY 10024-5192
            work phone: 212-496-3447
            mobile phone: 917-407-0378
          • Vincent Tepedino
            ________________________________ From: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com [mailto:beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John S. Ascher Sent: Friday, September
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 3, 2010
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              From: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com [mailto: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of John S. Ascher
              Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 3:03 PM
              To: Sharon Muczynski
              Cc: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] RE: use of new Squash Bee Trap?

               

               

              >>>John, you didn’t direct this to me but I’m going to respond anyway.

              Certain bee species and a very few bee faunas are well known and can be
              repeatedly sampled, so that adequate information can be obtained using
              observation or inefficient, highly selective collecting methods. In these
              limited circumstances large-scale collecting ("killing") may be
              unwarranted.

              >>>And that’s all that is being said here, at least by me.  It depends on what your objectives are and how scientifically worthy they are and if there are alternative ways to gather the data.  If the objective is simply to use some pins and fill a bunch of drawers, then your objectives are, in my opinion, unworthy (I could go further but won’t).  

              However, most bee species are poorly known and most bee faunas are
              inadequately characterized if not entirely unknown. The only efficient way
              to remedy this is to collect bees on a large scale using highly effective
              methods. Alternatively, we can remain ignorant or waste carbon on repeat
              visits (spewing pollutants and smashing bees against our windshield en
              route) that may not have been required had more effective techniques been
              employed.

              >>>So you mean to suggest that manic collectors, those who buy t-shirts that say “I collect, therefore I am”, don’t repeat their collecting expeditions, or “spew pollutants” or “waste carbon” (angels are they?).  I suppose they do their collecting while hovering or from skateboards.  Again, I don’t know anyone, least of all me, who reasonably objects to collecting for the purposes you outline (lord knows I’ve done much of it myself) but that is hardly what we’re talking about.  Don’t erect straw men.  We’re talking about collecting simply for the sake of collecting, or collecting that cannot justify its purported purpose, or collecting that puts bee populations in local areas at risk for no good purpose.

              Those who oppose "unnecessary killing" on principal have done immense harm
              to bee populations by preventing control of the deer that eat their host
              plants. They have a lot more hemolymph on their hands then do insect
              collectors.

              >>>I too have remarked upon the high correlation between opponents of bee killing and opponents of deer control.  Tell me again: who did that work? 

              "I did my whole insect collection for Entomology last year with only found
              dead insects"

              I'm sure it was amusing but had little scientific value.

              >>>I doubt the purpose was for the immediate advancement of science or for amusement; it was for a class.

              Jim, I'm afraid that many people cannot distinguish Peponapis from the
              smaller Xenoglossa (see Bugguide), and until they learn to do so they will
              need to document their identifications with vouchers (photo or specimen).
              Consubgeneric Xenoglossa can be quite tricky to separate (as are Peponapis
              where multiple species occur), so if these are to be separated even more
              problematic to rely on observation or sparse vouchers. Thus, squash bee
              identification remains a challenge even though these are among the better
              known bees.

              I’ll let Jim respond if he wishes.

               

              Vince T.


              John

              > Bee Group,
              >
              > I too, have been concerned about unnecessary killing of bees. As a matter
              > of fact I did my whole insect collection for Entomology last year with
              > only found dead insects. Everyone in my class thought I was odd and
              > eccentric to care so much about a handful of bugs. I think all life is
              > precious and not to be wasted. It is nice to hear some similar sentiments.
              > I do realize, however, that it is difficult- if not impossible- to
              > identify many species by sight.
              >
              > Best,
              > Sharon Muczynski LEED® AP
              > Graduate Student in Conservation Ecology
              >
              >
              > On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:17 PM, Cane, Jim wrote:
              >
              >>
              >> Folks- I am curious (trying not to be appalled) as to why someone
              would
              >> want to kill Peponapis bees en masse with pan trapping? What
              can’t be
              >> learned
              >>
              >> from surveying for them at the very flowers that are being used to
              bait
              >> them to pan traps? Certainly there is a lot that can’t be
              learned
              >>
              >> from merely killing the bees through passive sampling. Voucher
              >> specimens I can understand. I could say more, but will
              >>
              >> reserve judgment, knowing that I often don’t see all the angles
              to an
              >> issue and would like to learn the justification in this case.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Yours,
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Jim Cane
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >

              --
              John S. Ascher, Ph.D.
              Bee Database Project Manager
              Division of Invertebrate Zoology
              American Museum of Natural History
              Central Park West @ 79th St .
              New York , NY 10024-5192
              work phone: 212-496-3447
              mobile phone: 917-407-0378

            • John S. Ascher
              manic collectors, those who buy t-shirts that say I collect, therefore I am Straw men if I ve ever seen one. Here s another one: If the objective is
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 3, 2010
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                "manic collectors, those who buy t-shirts that say "I collect, therefore I
                am""

                Straw men if I've ever seen one. Here's another one: "If the objective is
                simply to use some pins and fill a bunch of drawers"

                "I doubt the purpose was for the immediate advancement of science or for
                amusement; it was for a class."

                In many areas just about the only records we have of Bombus affinis and
                other species of interest for entire decades (e.g., the 1970s and 1980s)
                are those collected (not found dead) by students for their entomology
                classes. "Responsible" "scientific" collectors (including myself in the
                late 1990s when I was in Ithaca) saw no point in collecting long series of
                such a common bee. If such series existed today they would be extremely
                valuable as they could be used to screen for internal parasites such as
                Nosema and to document baseline population structure prior to declines.

                The long-term value of specimens, and in particular long series of
                specimens, cannot be anticipated.

                "Tell me again: who did that work?"

                I have no idea what this means and suspect I'm not alone among readers of
                this list serve. If you're referring to your work or other particular work
                please do us all a favor and provide the reference.

                Regarding the importance of taking care when identifying squash bees, and
                not assuming that you know a priori which species occur at a site, note
                that Glenn Hall recently found that "The Squash Bee Xenoglossa kansensis
                Cockerell (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Found in Organic Farms in Northern
                Florida" [http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2317/0022-8567-83.1.84%5d was a
                species not previously reported from this "well known" state.

                I live in New York City, long one of the most populated places on earth,
                and regret to report that not a single comprehensive bee collection has
                been made from the greater metropolitan area (Yurlina's studies on Staten
                Island were relatively intensive), and there are essentially no extensive
                collections between the 1930s and recent times. Our best sample, from the
                1890s, consists of only a few hundred specimens, with very few long
                series. Where were the "manic collectors" of bees when we needed them?

                John


                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>
                >>
                >> ________________________________
                >> From: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
                >> [mailto:beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com]
                >> On Behalf Of John S. Ascher
                >> Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 3:03 PM
                >> To: Sharon Muczynski
                >> Cc: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
                >> Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] RE: use of new Squash Bee Trap?
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>>>>John, you didn't direct this to me but I'm going to respond anyway.
                >>
                >> Certain bee species and a very few bee faunas are well known and can be
                >> repeatedly sampled, so that adequate information can be obtained using
                >> observation or inefficient, highly selective collecting methods. In
                >> these
                >> limited circumstances large-scale collecting ("killing") may be
                >> unwarranted.
                >>
                >>>>>And that's all that is being said here, at least by me. It depends on
                >>>>> what your objectives are and how scientifically worthy they are and
                >>>>> if
                >>>>> there are alternative ways to gather the data. If the objective is
                >>>>> simply to use some pins and fill a bunch of drawers, then your
                >>>>> objectives are, in my opinion, unworthy (I could go further but
                >>>>> won't).
                >>
                >> However, most bee species are poorly known and most bee faunas are
                >> inadequately characterized if not entirely unknown. The only efficient
                >> way
                >> to remedy this is to collect bees on a large scale using highly
                >> effective
                >> methods. Alternatively, we can remain ignorant or waste carbon on repeat
                >> visits (spewing pollutants and smashing bees against our windshield en
                >> route) that may not have been required had more effective techniques
                >> been
                >> employed.
                >>
                >>>>>So you mean to suggest that manic collectors, those who buy t-shirts
                >>>>> that say "I collect, therefore I am", don't repeat their collecting
                >>>>> expeditions, or "spew pollutants" or "waste carbon" (angels are
                >>>>> they?).
                >>>>> I suppose they do their collecting while hovering or from
                >>>>> skateboards.
                >>>>> Again, I don't know anyone, least of all me, who reasonably objects
                >>>>> to
                >>>>> collecting for the purposes you outline (lord knows I've done much of
                >>>>> it myself) but that is hardly what we're talking about. Don't erect
                >>>>> straw men. We're talking about collecting simply for the sake of
                >>>>> collecting, or collecting that cannot justify its purported purpose,
                >>>>> or
                >>>>> collecting that puts bee populations in local areas at risk for no
                >>>>> good
                >>>>> purpose.
                >>
                >> Those who oppose "unnecessary killing" on principal have done immense
                >> harm
                >> to bee populations by preventing control of the deer that eat their host
                >> plants. They have a lot more hemolymph on their hands then do insect
                >> collectors.
                >>
                >>>>>I too have remarked upon the high correlation between opponents of bee
                >>>>> killing and opponents of deer control. Tell me again: who did that
                >>>>> work?
                >>
                >> "I did my whole insect collection for Entomology last year with only
                >> found
                >> dead insects"
                >>
                >> I'm sure it was amusing but had little scientific value.
                >>
                >>>>>I doubt the purpose was for the immediate advancement of science or
                >>>>> for
                >>>>> amusement; it was for a class.
                >>
                >> Jim, I'm afraid that many people cannot distinguish Peponapis from the
                >> smaller Xenoglossa (see Bugguide), and until they learn to do so they
                >> will
                >> need to document their identifications with vouchers (photo or
                >> specimen).
                >> Consubgeneric Xenoglossa can be quite tricky to separate (as are
                >> Peponapis
                >> where multiple species occur), so if these are to be separated even more
                >> problematic to rely on observation or sparse vouchers. Thus, squash bee
                >> identification remains a challenge even though these are among the
                >> better
                >> known bees.
                >>
                >>
                >> I'll let Jim respond if he wishes.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Vince T.
                >>
                >> John
                >>
                >>> Bee Group,
                >>>
                >>> I too, have been concerned about unnecessary killing of bees. As a
                >>> matter
                >>> of fact I did my whole insect collection for Entomology last year with
                >>> only found dead insects. Everyone in my class thought I was odd and
                >>> eccentric to care so much about a handful of bugs. I think all life is
                >>> precious and not to be wasted. It is nice to hear some similar
                >>> sentiments.
                >>> I do realize, however, that it is difficult- if not impossible- to
                >>> identify many species by sight.
                >>>
                >>> Best,
                >>> Sharon Muczynski LEED(r) AP
                >>> Graduate Student in Conservation Ecology
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:17 PM, Cane, Jim wrote:
                >>>
                >>>>
                >>>> Folks- I am curious (trying not to be appalled) as to why someone
                >>>> would
                >>>> want to kill Peponapis bees en masse with pan trapping? What can't be
                >>>> learned
                >>>>
                >>>> from surveying for them at the very flowers that are being used to
                >>>> bait
                >>>> them to pan traps? Certainly there is a lot that can't be learned
                >>>>
                >>>> from merely killing the bees through passive sampling. Voucher
                >>>> specimens I can understand. I could say more, but will
                >>>>
                >>>> reserve judgment, knowing that I often don't see all the angles to an
                >>>> issue and would like to learn the justification in this case.
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>> Yours,
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>> Jim Cane
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>
                >> --
                >> John S. Ascher, Ph.D.
                >> Bee Database Project Manager
                >> Division of Invertebrate Zoology
                >> American Museum of Natural History
                >> Central Park West @ 79th St.
                >> New York, NY 10024-5192
                >> work phone: 212-496-3447
                >> mobile phone: 917-407-0378
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                > --
                > John S. Ascher, Ph.D.
                > Bee Database Project Manager
                > Division of Invertebrate Zoology
                > American Museum of Natural History
                > Central Park West @ 79th St.
                > New York, NY 10024-5192
                > work phone: 212-496-3447
                > mobile phone: 917-407-0378
                >


                --
                John S. Ascher, Ph.D.
                Bee Database Project Manager
                Division of Invertebrate Zoology
                American Museum of Natural History
                Central Park West @ 79th St.
                New York, NY 10024-5192
                work phone: 212-496-3447
                mobile phone: 917-407-0378
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