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RE: [beemonitoring] Painting making bowls fragile

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  • Drons, David J
    The Krylon paints that were used are supposed to be formulated for plastics. I have finished painting my supply of bowls, so I ll see how this summers bowl
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 5, 2010
      The Krylon paints that were used are supposed to be formulated for plastics. I have finished painting my supply of bowls, so I'll see how this summers bowl supply ends up.



      ________________________________________
      From: ahworkerb@... [ahworkerb@...]
      Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 9:46 AM
      To: Drons, David J
      Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] Painting making bowls fragile

      It's worth trying different brands of spray paint. And there are some that designate OK for plastic but colors seem to be limited. Different brands may use different solvents.
      Ann Harman



      -----Original Message-----
      From: Drons, David J <David.Drons@...>
      To: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com <beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sat, Jun 5, 2010 10:25 am
      Subject: RE: [beemonitoring] Painting making bowls fragile





      The bowls I have been using are new to me, how long they were sitting around the
      food service location I purchased them from is anybody's guess. They have only
      been painted for a few weeks, and have less than six days of actual use. I only
      put soapy water in them and pick them up with my hands.

      I was assuming either the bowls were a bit old and were in storage before coming
      into my possession or the paint actually does react with the plastic in some
      way. I am quite sure that the first round of painting resulted in a heavier coat
      of paint than the latter painting sessions. I also bought paint on different
      occasions and may be dealing with two different "lots" of paints.

      The one strange aspect that makes me inclined to think it is a reaction with the
      paints in some way over the plastic is that I have not broken a single white
      bowl. Perhaps too much propellant expelled with not enough pigment for the
      yellow.


      Sounds like this isn't too common, so something to keep an eye out for.




      ____________________________
      From: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com [beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      Sam Droege [sdroege@...]
      Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 6:36 AM
      To: Andrew Webber
      Cc: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] Painting making bowls fragile

      David:

      Andrew is right we haven't had the problem you mentioned with fragile bowls and
      have used many of our bowls for years. We do at times have fading issues
      (particularly yellow) but then simply repaint. My guess is that it is an issue
      with spray paints. I would suspect that the carrier for the paint and perhaps
      some of the propellent is solvent based and is reacting with the plastic of the
      bowls.

      In one experiment looking at durability and fading we kept bowls out in the sun
      for 6 months (without water) and they did become more fragile over time, but it
      took a very long time and most of the bowls were usable by the end of the time
      period. And when they did go it was via splits along the sides rather than the
      bottom falling out....

      sam


      Sam Droege sdroege@...
      w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
      USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
      BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville, MD 20705
      Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov<Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov/>


      The Zinnias in my Round Green pot
      Pink, Red, Orange,
      are like Kabuki dancers -
      from every angle
      it's wonderful

      - Roger Miller



      From: Andrew Webber <andrewdwebber@...>
      To: "Drons, David J" <David.Drons@...>
      Cc: Sam Droege <sdroege@...>
      Date: 06/04/2010 11:00 PM
      Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] Painting making bowls fragile

      ________________________________



      Dear Mr Drons,

      My name is Andrew Webber and i am working with Mr. Droege this summer. I have
      done a few bee collections myself and i have a few questions/comments for you.

      I have been using the same cups, as far as i can tell, but i have had no problem
      with fragility of the cups. He has been circulating these cups for a period of
      time now and I have not heard of any consistent fragility. I would ask you what
      type of liquid solution you are putting in the cups, how old your cups are, and
      if you are using anything besides your hands in handling the cups?

      I added Mr. Droege as a CC to this email so he may become a part of this
      dialogue. He may have already answered this email and in that case sorry to
      repeat anything.

      Hope I can help,
      -Andrew Webber

      On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Drons, David J <David.Drons@...<mailto:David.Drons@...>>
      wrote:

      Hello all,

      I am currently several weeks into a native bee inventory of the Black Hills in
      South Dakota. For part of the collecting I am following Mr. Droege's methods for
      bee bowls outlined in the bee manual.

      I have been using bee bowls (3.25oz solo type cups) that were painted with
      Krylon brand paint. I have recently noticed that the paint may be reacting with
      the plastic making them a bit fragile. It appears to be more of an issue on the
      bowls that are painted fluorescent yellow. A white base coat of Krylon Dover
      White paint was used as primer, followed by the Krylon fluorescent yellow.

      After only a few weeks I have gone through several cups by putting my finger
      through them, removing the entire flat bottom of the cup. I have also noticed
      the cups painted with fluorescent blue are also a bit fragile, but not as much
      as the fluorescent yellow.

      I was wondering if anyone has noticed similar results with the bowl and paint
      combination, if not here is a heads up that there might be issues.

      -David Drons




      --
      -Andrew Webber





      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • karen@sevilleta.unm.edu
      I use Krylon fusion white as the primer, it is specially formulated to bind to plastic. Cheers, karen
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 7, 2010
        I use Krylon fusion white as the primer, it is specially formulated to
        bind to plastic. Cheers, karen>
        >
        >
        > The bowls I have been using are new to me, how long they were sitting
        > around the food service location I purchased them from is anybody's guess.
        > They have only been painted for a few weeks, and have less than six days
        > of actual use. I only put soapy water in them and pick them up with my
        > hands.
        >
        > I was assuming either the bowls were a bit old and were in storage before
        > coming into my possession or the paint actually does react with the
        > plastic in some way. I am quite sure that the first round of painting
        > resulted in a heavier coat of paint than the latter painting sessions. I
        > also bought paint on different occasions and may be dealing with two
        > different "lots" of paints.
        >
        > The one strange aspect that makes me inclined to think it is a reaction
        > with the paints in some way over the plastic is that I have not broken a
        > single white bowl. Perhaps too much propellant expelled with not enough
        > pigment for the yellow.
        >
        >
        > Sounds like this isn't too common, so something to keep an eye out for.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ____________________________
        > From: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com [beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of Sam Droege [sdroege@...]
        > Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 6:36 AM
        > To: Andrew Webber
        > Cc: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] Painting making bowls fragile
        >
        > David:
        >
        > Andrew is right we haven't had the problem you mentioned with fragile
        > bowls and have used many of our bowls for years. We do at times have
        > fading issues (particularly yellow) but then simply repaint. My guess is
        > that it is an issue with spray paints. I would suspect that the carrier
        > for the paint and perhaps some of the propellent is solvent based and is
        > reacting with the plastic of the bowls.
        >
        > In one experiment looking at durability and fading we kept bowls out in
        > the sun for 6 months (without water) and they did become more fragile over
        > time, but it took a very long time and most of the bowls were usable by
        > the end of the time period. And when they did go it was via splits along
        > the sides rather than the bottom falling out....
        >
        > sam
        >
        >
        > Sam Droege sdroege@...
        > w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
        > USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
        > BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville, MD 20705
        > Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov<Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov/>
        >
        >
        > The Zinnias in my Round Green pot
        > Pink, Red, Orange,
        > are like Kabuki dancers -
        > from every angle
        > it's wonderful
        >
        > - Roger Miller
        >
        >
        >
        > From: Andrew Webber <andrewdwebber@...>
        > To: "Drons, David J" <David.Drons@...>
        > Cc: Sam Droege <sdroege@...>
        > Date: 06/04/2010 11:00 PM
        > Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] Painting making bowls fragile
        >
        > ________________________________
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear Mr Drons,
        >
        > My name is Andrew Webber and i am working with Mr. Droege this summer. I
        > have done a few bee collections myself and i have a few questions/comments
        > for you.
        >
        > I have been using the same cups, as far as i can tell, but i have had no
        > problem with fragility of the cups. He has been circulating these cups for
        > a period of time now and I have not heard of any consistent fragility. I
        > would ask you what type of liquid solution you are putting in the cups,
        > how old your cups are, and if you are using anything besides your hands in
        > handling the cups?
        >
        > I added Mr. Droege as a CC to this email so he may become a part of this
        > dialogue. He may have already answered this email and in that case sorry
        > to repeat anything.
        >
        > Hope I can help,
        > -Andrew Webber
        >
        > On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Drons, David J
        > <David.Drons@...<mailto:David.Drons@...>> wrote:
        >
        > Hello all,
        >
        > I am currently several weeks into a native bee inventory of the Black
        > Hills in South Dakota. For part of the collecting I am following Mr.
        > Droege's methods for bee bowls outlined in the bee manual.
        >
        > I have been using bee bowls (3.25oz solo type cups) that were painted with
        > Krylon brand paint. I have recently noticed that the paint may be reacting
        > with the plastic making them a bit fragile. It appears to be more of an
        > issue on the bowls that are painted fluorescent yellow. A white base coat
        > of Krylon Dover White paint was used as primer, followed by the Krylon
        > fluorescent yellow.
        >
        > After only a few weeks I have gone through several cups by putting my
        > finger through them, removing the entire flat bottom of the cup. I have
        > also noticed the cups painted with fluorescent blue are also a bit
        > fragile, but not as much as the fluorescent yellow.
        >
        > I was wondering if anyone has noticed similar results with the bowl and
        > paint combination, if not here is a heads up that there might be issues.
        >
        > -David Drons
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > -Andrew Webber
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • H
        Terry and I have notice that some of our most recently painted bowls were cracking after one use or notice at the time of filling with soapy water. We
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 7, 2010
          Terry and I have notice that some of our most recently painted bowls were cracking after one use or notice at the time of filling with soapy water. We purchased them about 6 moths ago.

          We used the Krylon flourescent and fusion paints - every bowl color had the cracking problem. After weeding out the bad bowls we haven't had any complaints. I had painted all the bowls at the same time so I think it was a bad batch of the plastic formulation or manufacturing process.

          ..OR I "froze" the bowl by holding the spray paint too close.... Or...

          In the past I always just added another unpainted bowl underneath the leaking bowl rather than run short or be forced to paint a new set in the field.

          Best,
          H


          HW Ikerd
          Hikerd@...
          435-227-5711 (Google Voice)
          435-797-2425(work)



          On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 1:10 PM, <karen@...> wrote:
           

          I use Krylon fusion white as the primer, it is specially formulated to
          bind to plastic. Cheers, karen>


          >
          >
          > The bowls I have been using are new to me, how long they were sitting
          > around the food service location I purchased them from is anybody's guess.
          > They have only been painted for a few weeks, and have less than six days
          > of actual use. I only put soapy water in them and pick them up with my
          > hands.
          >
          > I was assuming either the bowls were a bit old and were in storage before
          > coming into my possession or the paint actually does react with the
          > plastic in some way. I am quite sure that the first round of painting
          > resulted in a heavier coat of paint than the latter painting sessions. I
          > also bought paint on different occasions and may be dealing with two
          > different "lots" of paints.
          >
          > The one strange aspect that makes me inclined to think it is a reaction
          > with the paints in some way over the plastic is that I have not broken a
          > single white bowl. Perhaps too much propellant expelled with not enough
          > pigment for the yellow.
          >
          >
          > Sounds like this isn't too common, so something to keep an eye out for.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ____________________________
          > From: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com [beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of Sam Droege [sdroege@...]
          > Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 6:36 AM
          > To: Andrew Webber
          > Cc: beemonitoring@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] Painting making bowls fragile
          >
          > David:
          >
          > Andrew is right we haven't had the problem you mentioned with fragile
          > bowls and have used many of our bowls for years. We do at times have
          > fading issues (particularly yellow) but then simply repaint. My guess is
          > that it is an issue with spray paints. I would suspect that the carrier
          > for the paint and perhaps some of the propellent is solvent based and is
          > reacting with the plastic of the bowls.
          >
          > In one experiment looking at durability and fading we kept bowls out in
          > the sun for 6 months (without water) and they did become more fragile over
          > time, but it took a very long time and most of the bowls were usable by
          > the end of the time period. And when they did go it was via splits along
          > the sides rather than the bottom falling out....
          >
          > sam
          >
          >
          > Sam Droege sdroege@...
          > w 301-497-5840 h 301-390-7759 fax 301-497-5624
          > USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
          > BARC-EAST, BLDG 308, RM 124 10300 Balt. Ave., Beltsville, MD 20705
          > Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov<Http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov/>
          >
          >
          > The Zinnias in my Round Green pot
          > Pink, Red, Orange,
          > are like Kabuki dancers -
          > from every angle
          > it's wonderful
          >
          > - Roger Miller
          >
          >
          >
          > From: Andrew Webber <andrewdwebber@...>
          > To: "Drons, David J" <David.Drons@...>
          > Cc: Sam Droege <sdroege@...>
          > Date: 06/04/2010 11:00 PM
          > Subject: Re: [beemonitoring] Painting making bowls fragile
          >
          > ________________________________
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear Mr Drons,
          >
          > My name is Andrew Webber and i am working with Mr. Droege this summer. I
          > have done a few bee collections myself and i have a few questions/comments
          > for you.
          >
          > I have been using the same cups, as far as i can tell, but i have had no
          > problem with fragility of the cups. He has been circulating these cups for
          > a period of time now and I have not heard of any consistent fragility. I
          > would ask you what type of liquid solution you are putting in the cups,
          > how old your cups are, and if you are using anything besides your hands in
          > handling the cups?
          >
          > I added Mr. Droege as a CC to this email so he may become a part of this
          > dialogue. He may have already answered this email and in that case sorry
          > to repeat anything.
          >
          > Hope I can help,
          > -Andrew Webber
          >
          > On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Drons, David J
          > <David.Drons@...<mailto:David.Drons@...>> wrote:
          >
          > Hello all,
          >
          > I am currently several weeks into a native bee inventory of the Black
          > Hills in South Dakota. For part of the collecting I am following Mr.
          > Droege's methods for bee bowls outlined in the bee manual.
          >
          > I have been using bee bowls (3.25oz solo type cups) that were painted with
          > Krylon brand paint. I have recently noticed that the paint may be reacting
          > with the plastic making them a bit fragile. It appears to be more of an
          > issue on the bowls that are painted fluorescent yellow. A white base coat
          > of Krylon Dover White paint was used as primer, followed by the Krylon
          > fluorescent yellow.
          >
          > After only a few weeks I have gone through several cups by putting my
          > finger through them, removing the entire flat bottom of the cup. I have
          > also noticed the cups painted with fluorescent blue are also a bit
          > fragile, but not as much as the fluorescent yellow.
          >
          > I was wondering if anyone has noticed similar results with the bowl and
          > paint combination, if not here is a heads up that there might be issues.
          >
          > -David Drons
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > -Andrew Webber
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


        • Hall, H Glenn
          I found that cups do tend to get brittle after a couple of years use, particularly the white ones. I also had trouble with spray paint dissolving the cup
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 15, 2010

          I found that cups do tend to get brittle after a couple of years use, particularly the white ones.  I also had trouble with spray paint dissolving the cup plastic.  I have used the Krylon white plastic fusion paint with little problem.  However, after spraying the fluorescent yellow and blue (Krylon or Ace brand; blue easier to find at Ace hardware), some of the cup bottoms would just pop out as though cleanly cut with a knife.  The 3.25oz Solo cups have a small depression around the inside bottom rim, and pooling of the paint there probably caused the problem.  So I fill that depression with a water based paint (like the ones Sam recommends in the Handy Bee Manual - although any latex paint would probably do) or a water based or silicon glue, before spray-painting.  I suppose that priming with the white fusion paint might work also, but I prefer having the color show through the sides (I do not know if it makes a difference to the bees - something for someone to test) - also one reason I prefer the easier-to-obtain translucent cups than the white ones.

           

          The main problem I found with the spray paint is blowing the cups away, requiring holding each one down with a stick or something (or a hand if you don’t mind the blue and yellow combination turning it green).   So I made a series of holes with a 2 3/4 inch hole saw on a power drill in a small sheet of Lauan plywood (or any thin plywood)(photo attached).  That hole saw size is just right to hold the 3.25 oz cups by their top rim.  Strips of wood, about 1 ½ in tall, are nailed at the ends to make room for the cups to hang.  I made four of these 10-hole holders, which makes short work getting the cups painted.

           

          Please note, as in the photo, that the full page BP newspaper ads are good to use under the cup holder when spraying - although I can think of even more appropriate ways to use the ads.

           

          Glenn Hall

          University of Florida

        • David_r_smith@fws.gov
          Hi All, I use the 12 oz stadium cup method here in Arizona. I use the Krylon plastic primer first then spray the fluorescent yellow and blue on the cups. I
          Message 5 of 9 , Jun 15, 2010

            Hi All,

            I use the 12 oz stadium cup method here in Arizona.  I use the Krylon plastic primer first then spray the fluorescent yellow and blue on the cups.  I set the traps for one week per month.  I don't leave them out during the interim period.  So far except for paint peeling from a few spots that I obviously missed with the primer my cups are still as strong as before.  Another advantage to the stadium cups is that they of course are stackable and very sturdy.  I can just stack them and throw them in a box in the truck as I check trap sets.  The Handy Bee Manual has a write-up of this method if your are interested.

            Inverts Rule,

            Dave Smith
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