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SOLAR ENGIENE's Which one's do you prefer

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  • jabmechtech
    Hello Group I would like to know which SE s you all prefere and why? I am working on somehting for a Second Life, Intergroup meating, about solar engeines. It
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 27, 2009
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      Hello Group

      I would like to know which SE's you all prefere and why?


      I am working on somehting for a Second Life, Intergroup meating, about solar engeines.

      It will be on how to "freefom" the SE's, the parts used, and how each SE works and wich ones work best for what aplication.
      any and all imput on this is very welcome. as I bearly understand most of it my self.

      I can make them, but don't understand them.

      I will start with the FLED, as this is the one I started with when I first got into BEAM robotics, and the parts are easier to find for most people.

      thanks for your help and imput,and advice.
      jabmechtech
      build your dreams
    • uspoorfolks
      ... The FLED is the only one I ve built and the reason is as you state ,the parts are easier to find, junk-wise. I don t really like to go to a store (RS) to
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 27, 2009
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        --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "jabmechtech" <jabmechtech@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Group
        >
        > I would like to know which SE's you all prefere and why?
        >
        >
        > I am working on somehting for a Second Life, Intergroup meating, about solar engeines.
        >
        > It will be on how to "freefom" the SE's, the parts used, and how each SE works and wich ones work best for what aplication.
        > any and all imput on this is very welcome. as I bearly understand most of it my self.
        >
        > I can make them, but don't understand them.
        >
        > I will start with the FLED, as this is the one I started with when I first got into BEAM robotics, and the parts are easier to find for most people.
        >
        > thanks for your help and imput,and advice.
        > jabmechtech
        > build your dreams
        >
        The FLED is the only one I've built and the reason is as you state ,the parts are easier to find, junk-wise. I don't really like to go to a store (RS) to purchase electronics. They are usually way overpriced for what they are. I also don't like to purchase parts online either because I don't like to wait. Therefore, it's scavenge and junk for me. Part of the fun, really. Just my 2 cents.

        boB
      • telefox
        I don t build that many classic solar engines, but I usually make either a basic zener triggered type 1 (sometimes with an LED instead of the zener diode), or
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 27, 2009
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          I don't build that many classic solar engines, but I usually make either a basic zener triggered type 1 (sometimes with an LED instead of the zener diode), or some variant of the 'Tritium' type 3.
          I use the zener triggered SE because it's easy to configure, light on parts, and doesn't require anything like a 1381 IC, which can be hard to find where I live.
          The Tritium SE is nice because of the increased efficiency, and a well built type 3 SE will function effectively under a wide range of light conditions.
        • J Wolfgang Goerlich
          ... I prefer the Miller Solar Engine. It is easy to free-form and performs well. My son did several experiments with solar engines, and found the MSE with
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 28, 2009
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            > I would like to know which SE's you all prefere and why?

            I prefer the Miller Solar Engine. It is easy to free-form and performs well. My son did several experiments with solar engines, and found the MSE with 2222/2207 transistors outperformed the standard 1381, Fled, and Fred engines.

            Good luck on your Second Life meeting.

            J Wolfgang Goerlich


            Solar Engine Dynamometer Experiments
            http://jwgoerlich.solarbotics.net/experiments/2004jagsfp.htm
          • jabmechtech
            ... Cool thanks. for your 2 cents,.
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 28, 2009
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              --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "uspoorfolks" <uspoorfolks@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "jabmechtech" <jabmechtech@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello Group
              > >
              > > I would like to know which SE's you all prefere and why?
              > >
              > >
              > > I am working on somehting for a Second Life, Intergroup meating, about solar engeines.
              > >
              > > It will be on how to "freefom" the SE's, the parts used, and how each SE works and wich ones work best for what aplication.
              > > any and all imput on this is very welcome. as I bearly understand most of it my self.
              > >
              > > I can make them, but don't understand them.
              > >
              > > I will start with the FLED, as this is the one I started with when I first got into BEAM robotics, and the parts are easier to find for most people.
              > >
              > > thanks for your help and imput,and advice.
              > > jabmechtech
              > > build your dreams
              > >
              > The FLED is the only one I've built and the reason is as you state ,the parts are easier to find, junk-wise. I don't really like to go to a store (RS) to purchase electronics. They are usually way overpriced for what they are. I also don't like to purchase parts online either because I don't like to wait. Therefore, it's scavenge and junk for me. Part of the fun, really. Just my 2 cents.
              >
              > boB
              >
              Cool thanks.
              for your 2 cents,.
            • jabmechtech
              ... WOW. I have never built those. I ll look them up and give then a go. thank you.
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 28, 2009
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                --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "telefox" <telefox@...> wrote:
                >
                > I don't build that many classic solar engines, but I usually make either a basic zener triggered type 1 (sometimes with an LED instead of the zener diode), or some variant of the 'Tritium' type 3.
                > I use the zener triggered SE because it's easy to configure, light on parts, and doesn't require anything like a 1381 IC, which can be hard to find where I live.
                > The Tritium SE is nice because of the increased efficiency, and a well built type 3 SE will function effectively under a wide range of light conditions.
                >
                WOW.
                I have never built those. I'll look them up and give then a go.
                thank you.
              • jabmechtech
                ... thank you Wolf, and your son for the reserch and notes,. very helpfull. jab
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 28, 2009
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                  --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "J Wolfgang Goerlich" <jwgoerlich@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I would like to know which SE's you all prefere and why?
                  >
                  > I prefer the Miller Solar Engine. It is easy to free-form and performs well. My son did several experiments with solar engines, and found the MSE with 2222/2207 transistors outperformed the standard 1381, Fled, and Fred engines.
                  >
                  > Good luck on your Second Life meeting.
                  >
                  > J Wolfgang Goerlich
                  >
                  >
                  > Solar Engine Dynamometer Experiments
                  > http://jwgoerlich.solarbotics.net/experiments/2004jagsfp.htm
                  >
                  thank you Wolf, and your son for the reserch and notes,. very helpfull.
                  jab
                • Myc Holmes
                  The FLED solar engine is probably the easiest to get parts for. I would have to agree with J, that my overall favorite is the MIller SE. The Miller is rock
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 28, 2009
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                    The FLED solar engine is probably the easiest to get parts for. 

                    I would have to agree with J, that my overall favorite is the MIller SE. The Miller is rock solid and very repeatable.

                    Each type of solar engine has a unique performance curve. Some will do lots of little "pops" while others will dump the entire capacitor in one shot. It depends on  what end result is needed. It is an interesting experiment to watch the effects on the different solar engines. 

                    One of the more "controllable" solar engines is based on the MAX8212. With the 8212 you can set the upper and lower trigger points with a couple of resitors..

                    Of course, you can also go with a PICAXE 08M microprocessor based solar engine for the ultimate in control. 

                    Myc

                    On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 10:44 AM, jabmechtech <jabmechtech@...> wrote:


                    --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "J Wolfgang Goerlich" <jwgoerlich@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > I would like to know which SE's you all prefere and why?
                    >
                    > I prefer the Miller Solar Engine. It is easy to free-form and performs well. My son did several experiments with solar engines, and found the MSE with 2222/2207 transistors outperformed the standard 1381, Fled, and Fred engines.
                    >
                    > Good luck on your Second Life meeting.
                    >
                    > J Wolfgang Goerlich
                    >
                    >
                    > Solar Engine Dynamometer Experiments
                    > http://jwgoerlich.solarbotics.net/experiments/2004jagsfp.htm
                    >
                    thank you Wolf, and your son for the reserch and notes,. very helpfull.
                    jab


                  • Your Friendly Hogfather (J. deVries)
                    ENGINE , not ENGIENE . But big deal. But we d be talking about physical hygene next... One where the parameters for the motor are correctly determined and
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 28, 2009
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                      "ENGINE", not "ENGIENE". But big deal. But we'd be talking about physical hygene next...


                      One where the parameters for the motor are correctly determined and are not based on the hogwash (hmm - hogwash for a Hogfather?) called "gear-motor efficiency" misinformation found on the solarbotics.net site.

                      Obviously, you've GOT to have good data for your motors (which, at present, we don't) - until you've got that, you can't really match it up against the parameters for the various sorts of drivers you might be able to build with the parts you've got (please note: I'm -strictly- separating the concept of the "motor" portion of the solar-engine from the "driver" portion. In other words, a solar-engine = a driver plus a motor.)

                      And yeah, I've read the postings where someone slaps together some sort of almost-everyone-uses-it kind of driver and then tests it against their collection of motors until they find one that works reasonably well, but I just consider that inefficient and fairly sloppy. Just my not-so-humble opinion and all.

                      I'll admit that it doesn't change whether or not the person is going to get something that _works_ (which is obviously rather important), but it DOES change whether or not they are going to get optimum performance (which I think is of even more benefit).


                      Hogglishly,

                      About to begin his fifth month connected by 30' of vinyl tubing to an oxygen concentrator. What fun.


                      -----------------------------------------------

                      Y'know, if you cut yourself, you can tell how well it is healing. When it is something inside of yourself and you feel more-or-less the same day to day, how can you tell? I reckon they can continue to take PT/INR readings to see if my blood is, shall we say, sufficiently fluid and thus I'm taking the correct amount of Coumadin but until they try another D-Dimer test to see if there is very much fibrinogenolysis going on (the less, the better) there really isn't any point in taking another CAT scan on my chest or ultrasound of my leg. Which cost, in total, about $3,000 US all told. Sigh. Getting old is a b*tch.
                    • jabmechtech
                      thank you YFH. My spelling at best is not very good. it is somehting I strugle with every day. my speach is not much better. :) your points are valid, and most
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 28, 2009
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                        thank you YFH.
                        My spelling at best is not very good. it is somehting I strugle with every day. my speach is not much better. :)

                        your points are valid, and most welcome. I know from personal tests that if your motors suck it dosen't matter what SE you use. it is a hit and miss game sometimes.

                        sorry to hear your health is failing.
                        'Without the Hogfather there can be no dawn'
                        take care and thank you allways for your imput.
                        jab






                        --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "Your Friendly Hogfather (J. deVries)" <hogfather@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > "ENGINE", not "ENGIENE". But big deal. But we'd be talking about physical hygene next...
                        >
                        >
                        > One where the parameters for the motor are correctly determined and are not based on the hogwash (hmm - hogwash for a Hogfather?) called "gear-motor efficiency" misinformation found on the solarbotics.net site.
                        >
                        > Obviously, you've GOT to have good data for your motors (which, at present, we don't) - until you've got that, you can't really match it up against the parameters for the various sorts of drivers you might be able to build with the parts you've got (please note: I'm -strictly- separating the concept of the "motor" portion of the solar-engine from the "driver" portion. In other words, a solar-engine = a driver plus a motor.)
                        >
                        > And yeah, I've read the postings where someone slaps together some sort of almost-everyone-uses-it kind of driver and then tests it against their collection of motors until they find one that works reasonably well, but I just consider that inefficient and fairly sloppy. Just my not-so-humble opinion and all.
                        >
                        > I'll admit that it doesn't change whether or not the person is going to get something that _works_ (which is obviously rather important), but it DOES change whether or not they are going to get optimum performance (which I think is of even more benefit).
                        >
                        >
                        > Hogglishly,
                        >
                        > About to begin his fifth month connected by 30' of vinyl tubing to an oxygen concentrator. What fun.
                        >
                        >
                        > -----------------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Y'know, if you cut yourself, you can tell how well it is healing. When it is something inside of yourself and you feel more-or-less the same day to day, how can you tell? I reckon they can continue to take PT/INR readings to see if my blood is, shall we say, sufficiently fluid and thus I'm taking the correct amount of Coumadin but until they try another D-Dimer test to see if there is very much fibrinogenolysis going on (the less, the better) there really isn't any point in taking another CAT scan on my chest or ultrasound of my leg. Which cost, in total, about $3,000 US all told. Sigh. Getting old is a b*tch.
                        >
                      • jabmechtech
                        I like the Miller too. I use it in most of my solar bots. I have finnished the VR FLED. wow. thanks to Dave H. and the JBBW book. I have only built 5 SE s
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 28, 2009
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                          I like the Miller too. I use it in most of my solar bots.
                          I have finnished the VR FLED. wow. thanks to Dave H. and the JBBW book.
                          I have only built 5 SE's personaly for my differant robots. This is opening up more posablitys and new ideas.
                          thank you for your imput.
                          i need to look those up Too.
                          :)
                          jab



                          --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > The FLED solar engine is probably the easiest to get parts for.
                          > I would have to agree with J, that my overall favorite is the MIller SE. The
                          > Miller is rock solid and very repeatable.
                          >
                          > Each type of solar engine has a unique performance curve. Some will do lots
                          > of little "pops" while others will dump the entire capacitor in one shot. It
                          > depends on what end result is needed. It is an interesting experiment to
                          > watch the effects on the different solar engines.
                          >
                          > One of the more "controllable" solar engines is based on the MAX8212. With
                          > the 8212 you can set the upper and lower trigger points with a couple of
                          > resitors..
                          >
                          > Of course, you can also go with a PICAXE 08M microprocessor based solar
                          > engine for the ultimate in control.
                          >
                          > Myc
                          >
                          > On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 10:44 AM, jabmechtech <jabmechtech@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In beam@yahoogroups.com <beam%40yahoogroups.com>, "J Wolfgang
                          > > Goerlich" <jwgoerlich@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > > I would like to know which SE's you all prefere and why?
                          > > >
                          > > > I prefer the Miller Solar Engine. It is easy to free-form and performs
                          > > well. My son did several experiments with solar engines, and found the MSE
                          > > with 2222/2207 transistors outperformed the standard 1381, Fled, and Fred
                          > > engines.
                          > > >
                          > > > Good luck on your Second Life meeting.
                          > > >
                          > > > J Wolfgang Goerlich
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Solar Engine Dynamometer Experiments
                          > > > http://jwgoerlich.solarbotics.net/experiments/2004jagsfp.htm
                          > > >
                          > > thank you Wolf, and your son for the reserch and notes,. very helpfull.
                          > > jab
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Arno
                          I really only built the Miller SE so that has to be my favourite.Especially in combination with the Solarbotics solarcells with their circuit on the back. The
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 28, 2009
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                            I really only built the Miller SE so that has to be my
                            favourite.Especially in combination with the Solarbotics solarcells with
                            their circuit on the back.
                            The other SE's mentioned (tritium and zener)sound interesting.I have to
                            try those sometime.

                            regards,Arno

                            jabmechtech wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Hello Group
                            >
                            > I would like to know which SE's you all prefere and why?
                            >
                            > I am working on somehting for a Second Life, Intergroup meating, about
                            > solar engeines.
                            >
                            > It will be on how to "freefom" the SE's, the parts used, and how each
                            > SE works and wich ones work best for what aplication.
                            > any and all imput on this is very welcome. as I bearly understand most
                            > of it my self.
                            >
                            > I can make them, but don't understand them.
                            >
                            > I will start with the FLED, as this is the one I started with when I
                            > first got into BEAM robotics, and the parts are easier to find for
                            > most people.
                            >
                            > thanks for your help and imput,and advice.
                            > jabmechtech
                            > build your dreams
                            >
                            >
                          • jabmechtech
                            thanks Arno. I like the Miller too. it is easy to truble shoot. jab
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 28, 2009
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                              thanks Arno.
                              I like the Miller too. it is easy to truble shoot.
                              jab


                              --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, Arno <arnobrosi@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I really only built the Miller SE so that has to be my
                              > favourite.Especially in combination with the Solarbotics solarcells with
                              > their circuit on the back.
                              > The other SE's mentioned (tritium and zener)sound interesting.I have to
                              > try those sometime.
                              >
                              > regards,Arno
                              >
                              > jabmechtech wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Hello Group
                              > >
                              > > I would like to know which SE's you all prefere and why?
                              > >
                              > > I am working on somehting for a Second Life, Intergroup meating, about
                              > > solar engeines.
                              > >
                              > > It will be on how to "freefom" the SE's, the parts used, and how each
                              > > SE works and wich ones work best for what aplication.
                              > > any and all imput on this is very welcome. as I bearly understand most
                              > > of it my self.
                              > >
                              > > I can make them, but don't understand them.
                              > >
                              > > I will start with the FLED, as this is the one I started with when I
                              > > first got into BEAM robotics, and the parts are easier to find for
                              > > most people.
                              > >
                              > > thanks for your help and imput,and advice.
                              > > jabmechtech
                              > > build your dreams
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Simon Fraser
                              Something I like about the Miller is that it s pretty easy to free-form a pretty compact version with a SMT capacitor and diode rescued from old circuit boards
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 28, 2009
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                                Something I like about the Miller is that it's pretty easy to free-form
                                a pretty compact version with a SMT capacitor and diode rescued
                                from old circuit boards (e.g. older hard drive controller boards).
                                You hot-glue the trigger and transistor face-to-face, and then the
                                two components fit between the legs with a bit of bending.

                                I have a picture here:
                                <http://www.smfr.org/robots/robot_images/photopopper_se.jpg>

                                Simon

                                On Apr 28, 2009, at 1:59 pm, jabmechtech wrote:

                                > thanks Arno.
                                > I like the Miller too. it is easy to truble shoot.
                                > jab
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, Arno <arnobrosi@...> wrote:
                                >>
                                >> I really only built the Miller SE so that has to be my
                                >> favourite.Especially in combination with the Solarbotics solarcells
                                >> with
                                >> their circuit on the back.
                                >> The other SE's mentioned (tritium and zener)sound interesting.I
                                >> have to
                                >> try those sometime.
                                >>
                                >> regards,Arno
                                >>
                                >> jabmechtech wrote:
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>> Hello Group
                                >>>
                                >>> I would like to know which SE's you all prefere and why?
                                >>>
                                >>> I am working on somehting for a Second Life, Intergroup meating,
                                >>> about
                                >>> solar engeines.
                                >>>
                                >>> It will be on how to "freefom" the SE's, the parts used, and how
                                >>> each
                                >>> SE works and wich ones work best for what aplication.
                                >>> any and all imput on this is very welcome. as I bearly understand
                                >>> most
                                >>> of it my self.
                                >>>
                                >>> I can make them, but don't understand them.
                                >>>
                                >>> I will start with the FLED, as this is the one I started with when I
                                >>> first got into BEAM robotics, and the parts are easier to find for
                                >>> most people.
                                >>>
                                >>> thanks for your help and imput,and advice.
                                >>> jabmechtech
                                >>> build your dreams
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • kapil kumar garg
                                  Certified summer training IN JSSATE noida                1. TW- Hands on Microcontrollers [STES-101] : Microcontroller is the basic area on
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 29, 2009
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                                  Students will get both Mechanical & Autonomous Robotics Kits from Thinnk Ware.

                                  Student will develop 1 Mechanical & 1 Autonomous Robot during Training.

                                   

                                  For more information visit    http://www.thinnkware.com



                                  --- On Tue, 4/28/09, jabmechtech <jabmechtech@...> wrote:

                                  From: jabmechtech <jabmechtech@...>
                                  Subject: [beam] Re: SOLAR ENGIENE's Which one's do you prefer
                                  To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 1:59 PM

                                  thanks Arno.
                                  I like the Miller too. it is easy to truble shoot.
                                  jab

                                  --- In beam@yahoogroups. com, Arno <arnobrosi@. ..> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I really only built the Miller SE so that has to be my
                                  > favourite.Especiall y in combination with the Solarbotics solarcells with
                                  > their circuit on the back.
                                  > The other SE's mentioned (tritium and zener)sound interesting. I have to
                                  > try those sometime.
                                  >
                                  > regards,Arno
                                  >
                                  > jabmechtech wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Group
                                  > >
                                  > > I would like to know which SE's you all prefere and why?
                                  > >
                                  > > I am working on somehting for a Second Life, Intergroup meating, about
                                  > > solar engeines.
                                  > >
                                  > > It will be on how to "freefom" the SE's, the parts used, and how each
                                  > > SE works and wich ones work best for what aplication.
                                  > > any and all imput on this is very welcome. as I bearly understand most
                                  > > of it my self.
                                  > >
                                  > > I can make them, but don't understand them.
                                  > >
                                  > > I will start with the FLED, as this is the one I started with when I
                                  > > first got into BEAM robotics, and the parts are easier to find for
                                  > > most people.
                                  > >
                                  > > thanks for your help and imput,and advice.
                                  > > jabmechtech
                                  > > build your dreams
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >


                                • jabmechtech
                                  wow COOL Simon Thanks.
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Apr 29, 2009
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                                    wow COOL Simon Thanks.


                                    --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, Simon Fraser <yahoo@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Something I like about the Miller is that it's pretty easy to free-form
                                    > a pretty compact version with a SMT capacitor and diode rescued
                                    > from old circuit boards (e.g. older hard drive controller boards).
                                    > You hot-glue the trigger and transistor face-to-face, and then the
                                    > two components fit between the legs with a bit of bending.
                                    >
                                    > I have a picture here:
                                    > <http://www.smfr.org/robots/robot_images/photopopper_se.jpg>
                                    >
                                    > Simon
                                    >
                                    > On Apr 28, 2009, at 1:59 pm, jabmechtech wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > thanks Arno.
                                    > > I like the Miller too. it is easy to truble shoot.
                                    > > jab
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, Arno <arnobrosi@> wrote:
                                    > >>
                                    > >> I really only built the Miller SE so that has to be my
                                    > >> favourite.Especially in combination with the Solarbotics solarcells
                                    > >> with
                                    > >> their circuit on the back.
                                    > >> The other SE's mentioned (tritium and zener)sound interesting.I
                                    > >> have to
                                    > >> try those sometime.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> regards,Arno
                                    > >>
                                    > >> jabmechtech wrote:
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> Hello Group
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> I would like to know which SE's you all prefere and why?
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> I am working on somehting for a Second Life, Intergroup meating,
                                    > >>> about
                                    > >>> solar engeines.
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> It will be on how to "freefom" the SE's, the parts used, and how
                                    > >>> each
                                    > >>> SE works and wich ones work best for what aplication.
                                    > >>> any and all imput on this is very welcome. as I bearly understand
                                    > >>> most
                                    > >>> of it my self.
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> I can make them, but don't understand them.
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> I will start with the FLED, as this is the one I started with when I
                                    > >>> first got into BEAM robotics, and the parts are easier to find for
                                    > >>> most people.
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> thanks for your help and imput,and advice.
                                    > >>> jabmechtech
                                    > >>> build your dreams
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------------------------------
                                    > >
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
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