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Re: 1st Symet attempt - question

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  • supertigerchan
    Hey there, I used the same circuit and had much the same initial problems as you are facing. By process of elimination, it turned out the motors (I tried quite
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 4, 2008
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      Hey there,

      I used the same circuit and had much the same initial problems as you
      are facing.

      By process of elimination, it turned out the motors (I tried quite a
      few) were the culprits.

      The motors I used were so called "hobby" motors, even though some are
      rated at 1.5v, they need quite a bit of current to start.

      I think if you followed the instructions as per the book, your circuit
      should be fine. It's most likely your motor.

      Before anything else, do try and swap in another motor just to check.
      Try to get a good motor. They should be low current efficient motors.
      Pager motors will very likely work, motors from portable devices
      (walkmans, cdplayers etc.) are good too.

      Good luck and Have fun!


      --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, Wouter De Vos <skullforger000@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi,
      >
      > I don't know if it is appropriate for a noob to post a question
      here? Please tell me if it is unappropriate.
      >
      > I am taking my first steps in electronics, and I bought the book
      Junkbots, Bugbots & Bots on Wheels about BEAM bots. I copied the Symet
      circuit on my breadboard, but it doesn't seem to work... First I
      thought my motor was too heavy, but I can run it with just one 1.5V
      battery, so I guess that shouldn't be the problem.
      >
      > I have done some measurements with a multimeter at different places
      in my circuit, so perhaps it easier for you guys to maybe troubleshoot
      a bit? I'll add a small picture in my mail. (the values in the circles
      are Volt readings, the sinus means that I got an alternating reading -
      I guess because of the FLED) (I put an arrow with a question mark to
      the value that I think shows that there is somethingn wrong)
      >
      > The book says that I shouldn't see the FLED actually flashing, but I
      can see it flashing when I use a 1K to 10K resistor. Only if I use 22K
      it stops flashing.
      >
      > Does anybody has the time to take a quick look at it?
      >
      > Thanks in advance! (and sorry for being such a noob ;-)
      >
    • m3lt79
      Everyone was a noob at some time. The only difference is the people willing to accelerate your learning with their past experiences...Which seems to be what
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 4, 2008
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        Everyone was a noob at some time. The only difference is the people
        willing to accelerate your learning with their past
        experiences...Which seems to be what this group is VERY good at.

        Do not apologize for being new, "old timers" should be happy a
        possible new perspective is joining the group.

        And btw...Welcome!

        --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, Wouter De Vos <skullforger000@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > I don't know if it is appropriate for a noob to post a question
        here? Please tell me if it is unappropriate.
        >
        > I am taking my first steps in electronics, and I bought the book
        Junkbots, Bugbots & Bots on Wheels about BEAM bots. I copied the Symet
        circuit on my breadboard, but it doesn't seem to work... First I
        thought my motor was too heavy, but I can run it with just one 1.5V
        battery, so I guess that shouldn't be the problem.
        >
        > I have done some measurements with a multimeter at different places
        in my circuit, so perhaps it easier for you guys to maybe troubleshoot
        a bit? I'll add a small picture in my mail. (the values in the circles
        are Volt readings, the sinus means that I got an alternating reading -
        I guess because of the FLED) (I put an arrow with a question mark to
        the value that I think shows that there is somethingn wrong)
        >
        > The book says that I shouldn't see the FLED actually flashing, but I
        can see it flashing when I use a 1K to 10K resistor. Only if I use 22K
        it stops flashing.
        >
        > Does anybody has the time to take a quick look at it?
        >
        > Thanks in advance! (and sorry for being such a noob ;-)
        >
      • Wouter De Vos
        Thanks a lot, man! That s a good thing to know.   ________________________________ From: m3lt79 To: beam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday,
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 4, 2008
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          Thanks a lot, man! That's a good thing to know.
           

           


          From: m3lt79 <amcnulty79@...>
          To: beam@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, November 4, 2008 11:15:53 PM
          Subject: [beam] Re: 1st Symet attempt - question

          Everyone was a noob at some time. The only difference is the people
          willing to accelerate your learning with their past
          experiences. ..Which seems to be what this group is VERY good at.

          Do not apologize for being new, "old timers" should be happy a
          possible new perspective is joining the group.

          And btw...Welcome!

          --- In beam@yahoogroups. com, Wouter De Vos <skullforger000@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > I don't know if it is appropriate for a noob to post a question
          here? Please tell me if it is unappropriate.
          >
          > I am taking my first steps in electronics, and I bought the book
          Junkbots, Bugbots & Bots on Wheels about BEAM bots. I copied the Symet
          circuit on my breadboard, but it doesn't seem to work... First I
          thought my motor was too heavy, but I can run it with just one 1.5V
          battery, so I guess that shouldn't be the problem.
          >
          > I have done some measurements with a multimeter at different places
          in my circuit, so perhaps it easier for you guys to maybe troubleshoot
          a bit? I'll add a small picture in my mail. (the values in the circles
          are Volt readings, the sinus means that I got an alternating reading -
          I guess because of the FLED) (I put an arrow with a question mark to
          the value that I think shows that there is somethingn wrong)
          >
          > The book says that I shouldn't see the FLED actually flashing, but I
          can see it flashing when I use a 1K to 10K resistor. Only if I use 22K
          it stops flashing.
          >
          > Does anybody has the time to take a quick look at it?
          >
          > Thanks in advance! (and sorry for being such a noob ;-)
          >


        • Wouter De Vos
          Hi, Thank you for your reply. I will try another motor as soon as I have one. I thought that mine was OK because it runs on a 1.5 V battery, but I guess it s
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 4, 2008
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            Hi,
             
            Thank you for your reply. I will try another motor as soon as I have one. I thought that mine was OK because it runs on a 1.5 V battery, but I guess it's more of a current (or power) problem then. I also tried a cooling fan from a pc mainboard, I thought that these would need very little power, but it also doesn't work. I wasn't sure it was the motor because my circuit behaved strange, with the LED flashing, even with a 10K resistor, and the 'no voltage drop over the motor' and other weird readings. I don't know enough about electronics yet to know if that's normal.
            Anyway, I'll let you know if I have found a motor that works.


            From: supertigerchan <supertigerchan@...>
            To: beam@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, November 4, 2008 8:19:25 PM
            Subject: [beam] Re: 1st Symet attempt - question

            Hey there,

            I used the same circuit and had much the same initial problems as you
            are facing.

            By process of elimination, it turned out the motors (I tried quite a
            few) were the culprits.

            The motors I used were so called "hobby" motors, even though some are
            rated at 1.5v, they need quite a bit of current to start.

            I think if you followed the instructions as per the book, your circuit
            should be fine. It's most likely your motor.

            Before anything else, do try and swap in another motor just to check.
            Try to get a good motor. They should be low current efficient motors.
            Pager motors will very likely work, motors from portable devices
            (walkmans, cdplayers etc.) are good too.

            Good luck and Have fun!

            --- In beam@yahoogroups. com, Wouter De Vos <skullforger000@ ...> wrote:

            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > I don't know if it is appropriate for a noob to post a question
            here? Please tell me if it is unappropriate.
            >
            > I am taking my first steps in electronics, and I bought the book
            Junkbots, Bugbots & Bots on Wheels about BEAM bots. I copied the Symet
            circuit on my breadboard, but it doesn't seem to work... First I
            thought my motor was too heavy, but I can run it with just one 1.5V
            battery, so I guess that shouldn't be the problem.
            >
            > I have done some measurements with a multimeter at different places
            in my circuit, so perhaps it easier for you guys to maybe troubleshoot
            a bit? I'll add a small picture in my mail. (the values in the circles
            are Volt readings, the sinus means that I got an alternating reading -
            I guess because of the FLED) (I put an arrow with a question mark to
            the value that I think shows that there is somethingn wrong)
            >
            > The book says that I shouldn't see the FLED actually flashing, but I
            can see it flashing when I use a 1K to 10K resistor. Only if I use 22K
            it stops flashing.
            >
            > Does anybody has the time to take a quick look at it?
            >
            > Thanks in advance! (and sorry for being such a noob ;-)
            >


          • Arno
            I would like to add my welcome and if you aren t able to find a motor I have plenty of them.So I can always send you one(or two etc).I assume you re from The
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 4, 2008
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              I would like to add my welcome and if you aren't able to find a motor I
              have plenty of them.So I can always send you one(or two etc).I assume
              you're from The Netherlands?

              regards,Arno

              Wouter De Vos wrote:
              > Hi,
              >
              > Thank you for your reply. I will try another motor as soon as I have
              > one. I thought that mine was OK because it runs on a 1.5 V battery,
              > but I guess it's more of a current (or power) problem then. I also
              > tried a cooling fan from a pc mainboard, I thought that these would
              > need very little power, but it also doesn't work. I wasn't sure it was
              > the motor because my circuit behaved strange, with the LED flashing,
              > even with a 10K resistor, and the 'no voltage drop over the motor' and
              > other weird readings. I don't know enough about electronics yet to
              > know if that's normal.
              > Anyway, I'll let you know if I have found a motor that works.
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > *From:* supertigerchan <supertigerchan@...>
              > *To:* beam@yahoogroups.com
              > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 4, 2008 8:19:25 PM
              > *Subject:* [beam] Re: 1st Symet attempt - question
              >
              > Hey there,
              >
              > I used the same circuit and had much the same initial problems as you
              > are facing.
              >
              > By process of elimination, it turned out the motors (I tried quite a
              > few) were the culprits.
              >
              > The motors I used were so called "hobby" motors, even though some are
              > rated at 1.5v, they need quite a bit of current to start.
              >
              > I think if you followed the instructions as per the book, your circuit
              > should be fine. It's most likely your motor.
              >
              > Before anything else, do try and swap in another motor just to check.
              > Try to get a good motor. They should be low current efficient motors.
              > Pager motors will very likely work, motors from portable devices
              > (walkmans, cdplayers etc.) are good too.
              >
              > Good luck and Have fun!
              >
              > --- In beam@yahoogroups. com <mailto:beam%40yahoogroups.com>, Wouter
              > De Vos <skullforger000@ ...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi,
              > >
              > > I don't know if it is appropriate for a noob to post a question
              > here? Please tell me if it is unappropriate.
              > >
              > > I am taking my first steps in electronics, and I bought the book
              > Junkbots, Bugbots & Bots on Wheels about BEAM bots. I copied the Symet
              > circuit on my breadboard, but it doesn't seem to work... First I
              > thought my motor was too heavy, but I can run it with just one 1.5V
              > battery, so I guess that shouldn't be the problem.
              > >
              > > I have done some measurements with a multimeter at different places
              > in my circuit, so perhaps it easier for you guys to maybe troubleshoot
              > a bit? I'll add a small picture in my mail. (the values in the circles
              > are Volt readings, the sinus means that I got an alternating reading -
              > I guess because of the FLED) (I put an arrow with a question mark to
              > the value that I think shows that there is somethingn wrong)
              > >
              > > The book says that I shouldn't see the FLED actually flashing, but I
              > can see it flashing when I use a 1K to 10K resistor. Only if I use 22K
              > it stops flashing.
              > >
              > > Does anybody has the time to take a quick look at it?
              > >
              > > Thanks in advance! (and sorry for being such a noob ;-)
              > >
              >
              >
              >
            • jonjb2a
              I ve discovered myself some motors just don t work with Symets--or the ones I ve been building, anyway. Sometimes the motors will work with other BEAM bots and
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 5, 2008
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                I've discovered myself some motors just don't work with Symets--or the ones I've been
                building, anyway. Sometimes the motors will work with other BEAM bots and that's a relief.
                Then again, I also have a small collection of motors that simply don't work with anything.
                Maybe they fried after being overheated by the soldering iron, too much current or whatever.
                Back to Symets: funny indeed how some motors will work. I seem to do particularly well with
                those smallish motors from CD players. Pager motors and the like also seem to work well. As
                for "Hobby motors," I'm not so sure. If they still work after being tested for Symet potential, I
                use them for photovores and other projects.
              • jonjb2a
                -I m still at the beginning, myself. I have yet to tackle bicore headbots and their kin! And magbots, sumobots, and all them critters. Glad I ve learned enough
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 5, 2008
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                  -I'm still at the beginning, myself. I have yet to tackle bicore headbots and their kin! And
                  magbots, sumobots, and all them critters. Glad I've learned enough to be able to share,
                  anyway. So welcome to you as well.
                • Wouter De Vos
                  Hi all, As many of you suggested, I tried a lot of other motors with my circuit, but none of them worked... I also tested the motors with a simplified circuit
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 11, 2008
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                    Hi all,
                     
                    As many of you suggested, I tried a lot of other motors with my circuit, but none of them worked... I also tested the motors with a simplified circuit : I put the capacitors in a circuit together with the solar cells to load them, after a couple of seconds I connect the motor and then it spins for about a second, then I remove the motor again, and put the capacitor back in to load and I start over again (like a 'manual' solar engine). So I guess that rules out the problem of the motors being not suitable, or did I make a mistake?

                    I also tested my flashing LED, and I saw that it conducts about 0.2 mA even if it is off (in between flashes or if the voltage is too low). Should this be zero and could that be the problem?
                    I still find it strange that everyone seems fine with a 2.2K resistor, and that my FLED still flashes even if I use a 15K...
                    Help is still welcome. You can see the measurements in my circuits in my first post.
                    Thanks in advance!
                     

                     

                    From: supertigerchan <supertigerchan@...>
                    To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, November 4, 2008 8:19:25 PM
                    Subject: [beam] Re: 1st Symet attempt - question

                    Hey there,

                    I used the same circuit and had much the same initial problems as you
                    are facing.

                    By process of elimination, it turned out the motors (I tried quite a
                    few) were the culprits.

                    The motors I used were so called "hobby" motors, even though some are
                    rated at 1.5v, they need quite a bit of current to start.

                    I think if you followed the instructions as per the book, your circuit
                    should be fine. It's most likely your motor.

                    Before anything else, do try and swap in another motor just to check.
                    Try to get a good motor. They should be low current efficient motors.
                    Pager motors will very likely work, motors from portable devices
                    (walkmans, cdplayers etc.) are good too.

                    Good luck and Have fun!

                    --- In beam@yahoogroups. com, Wouter De Vos <skullforger000@ ...> wrote:

                    >
                    > Hi,
                    >
                    > I don't know if it is appropriate for a noob to post a question
                    here? Please tell me if it is unappropriate.
                    >
                    > I am taking my first steps in electronics, and I bought the book
                    Junkbots, Bugbots & Bots on Wheels about BEAM bots. I copied the Symet
                    circuit on my breadboard, but it doesn't seem to work... First I
                    thought my motor was too heavy, but I can run it with just one 1.5V
                    battery, so I guess that shouldn't be the problem.
                    >
                    > I have done some measurements with a multimeter at different places
                    in my circuit, so perhaps it easier for you guys to maybe troubleshoot
                    a bit? I'll add a small picture in my mail. (the values in the circles
                    are Volt readings, the sinus means that I got an alternating reading -
                    I guess because of the FLED) (I put an arrow with a question mark to
                    the value that I think shows that there is somethingn wrong)
                    >
                    > The book says that I shouldn't see the FLED actually flashing, but I
                    can see it flashing when I use a 1K to 10K resistor. Only if I use 22K
                    it stops flashing.
                    >
                    > Does anybody has the time to take a quick look at it?
                    >
                    > Thanks in advance! (and sorry for being such a noob ;-)
                    >


                  • supertigerchan
                    If you have ruled out the motors, check your circuit again I guess. There are some post publication corrections posted on the book support site. Make sure you
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 12, 2008
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                      If you have ruled out the motors, check your circuit again I guess.
                      There are some post publication corrections posted on the book support
                      site. Make sure you check it out.

                      Regarding the symet circuit, here are some updated pictures which you
                      can't go wrong with;

                      A nice and simple FLED solar engine schematic:
                      http://junkbots.solarbotics.com/images/corrections/F07-01.jpg

                      And a pic of the complete symet circuit on a breadboard:
                      http://junkbots.solarbotics.com/images/corrections/F07-04.jpg



                      --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, Wouter De Vos <skullforger000@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi all,
                      >
                      > As many of you suggested, I tried a lot of other motors with my
                      circuit, but none of them worked... I also tested the motors with a
                      simplified circuit : I put the capacitors in a circuit together with
                      the solar cells to load them, after a couple of seconds I connect the
                      motor and then it spins for about a second, then I remove the motor
                      again, and put the capacitor back in to load and I start over again
                      (like a 'manual' solar engine). So I guess that rules out the problem
                      of the motors being not suitable, or did I make a mistake?
                      >
                      > I also tested my flashing LED, and I saw that it conducts about 0.2
                      mA even if it is off (in between flashes or if the voltage is too
                      low). Should this be zero and could that be the problem?
                      >
                      > I still find it strange that everyone seems fine with a 2.2K
                      resistor, and that my FLED still flashes even if I use a 15K...
                      > Help is still welcome. You can see the measurements in my circuits
                      in my first post.
                      >
                      > Thanks in advance!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: supertigerchan <supertigerchan@...>
                      > To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Tuesday, November 4, 2008 8:19:25 PM
                      > Subject: [beam] Re: 1st Symet attempt - question
                      >
                      >
                      > Hey there,
                      >
                      > I used the same circuit and had much the same initial problems as you
                      > are facing.
                      >
                      > By process of elimination, it turned out the motors (I tried quite a
                      > few) were the culprits..
                      >
                      > The motors I used were so called "hobby" motors, even though some are
                      > rated at 1.5v, they need quite a bit of current to start.
                      >
                      > I think if you followed the instructions as per the book, your circuit
                      > should be fine. It's most likely your motor.
                      >
                      > Before anything else, do try and swap in another motor just to check.
                      > Try to get a good motor. They should be low current efficient motors.
                      > Pager motors will very likely work, motors from portable devices
                      > (walkmans, cdplayers etc.) are good too.
                      >
                      > Good luck and Have fun!
                      >
                      > --- In beam@yahoogroups. com, Wouter De Vos <skullforger000@ ...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi,
                      > >
                      > > I don't know if it is appropriate for a noob to post a question
                      > here? Please tell me if it is unappropriate.
                      > >
                      > > I am taking my first steps in electronics, and I bought the book
                      > Junkbots, Bugbots & Bots on Wheels about BEAM bots. I copied the Symet
                      > circuit on my breadboard, but it doesn't seem to work... First I
                      > thought my motor was too heavy, but I can run it with just one 1.5V
                      > battery, so I guess that shouldn't be the problem.
                      > >
                      > > I have done some measurements with a multimeter at different places
                      > in my circuit, so perhaps it easier for you guys to maybe troubleshoot
                      > a bit? I'll add a small picture in my mail. (the values in the circles
                      > are Volt readings, the sinus means that I got an alternating reading -
                      > I guess because of the FLED) (I put an arrow with a question mark to
                      > the value that I think shows that there is somethingn wrong)
                      > >
                      > > The book says that I shouldn't see the FLED actually flashing, but I
                      > can see it flashing when I use a 1K to 10K resistor. Only if I use 22K
                      > it stops flashing.
                      > >
                      > > Does anybody has the time to take a quick look at it?
                      > >
                      > > Thanks in advance! (and sorry for being such a noob ;-)
                      > >
                      >
                    • Myc Holmes
                      Welcome to the world of BEAM! One note about motors and BEAM: Not all motors are BEAMable. Motors tend to be power hungry little beasts. If you have a meter,
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 12, 2008
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                        Welcome to the world of BEAM!

                        One note about motors and BEAM: 

                        Not all motors are BEAMable. Motors tend to be power hungry little beasts. If you have a meter, check the resistance of the motor. The higher the resistance the more friendly  it will be. 

                        Motors need a large initial startup current pulse  to overcome inertia and get the motor turning. This drains the SE and some transistors will not be able to supply that current.

                        Myc

                        On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 5:37 PM, Wouter De Vos <skullforger000@...> wrote:

                        Hi all,
                         
                        As many of you suggested, I tried a lot of other motors with my circuit, but none of them worked... I also tested the motors with a simplified circuit : I put the capacitors in a circuit together with the solar cells to load them, after a couple of seconds I connect the motor and then it spins for about a second, then I remove the motor again, and put the capacitor back in to load and I start over again (like a 'manual' solar engine). So I guess that rules out the problem of the motors being not suitable, or did I make a mistake?

                        I also tested my flashing LED, and I saw that it conducts about 0.2 mA even if it is off (in between flashes or if the voltage is too low). Should this be zero and could that be the problem?
                        I still find it strange that everyone seems fine with a 2.2K resistor, and that my FLED still flashes even if I use a 15K...
                        Help is still welcome. You can see the measurements in my circuits in my first post.
                        Thanks in advance!
                         

                         

                        From: supertigerchan <supertigerchan@...>
                        To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, November 4, 2008 8:19:25 PM
                        Subject: [beam] Re: 1st Symet attempt - question

                        Hey there,

                        I used the same circuit and had much the same initial problems as you
                        are facing.

                        By process of elimination, it turned out the motors (I tried quite a
                        few) were the culprits.

                        The motors I used were so called "hobby" motors, even though some are
                        rated at 1.5v, they need quite a bit of current to start.

                        I think if you followed the instructions as per the book, your circuit
                        should be fine. It's most likely your motor.

                        Before anything else, do try and swap in another motor just to check.
                        Try to get a good motor. They should be low current efficient motors.
                        Pager motors will very likely work, motors from portable devices
                        (walkmans, cdplayers etc.) are good too.

                        Good luck and Have fun!

                        --- In beam@yahoogroups. com, Wouter De Vos <skullforger000@ ...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi,
                        >
                        > I don't know if it is appropriate for a noob to post a question
                        here? Please tell me if it is unappropriate.
                        >
                        > I am taking my first steps in electronics, and I bought the book
                        Junkbots, Bugbots & Bots on Wheels about BEAM bots. I copied the Symet
                        circuit on my breadboard, but it doesn't seem to work... First I
                        thought my motor was too heavy, but I can run it with just one 1.5V
                        battery, so I guess that shouldn't be the problem.
                        >
                        > I have done some measurements with a multimeter at different places
                        in my circuit, so perhaps it easier for you guys to maybe troubleshoot
                        a bit? I'll add a small picture in my mail. (the values in the circles
                        are Volt readings, the sinus means that I got an alternating reading -
                        I guess because of the FLED) (I put an arrow with a question mark to
                        the value that I think shows that there is somethingn wrong)
                        >
                        > The book says that I shouldn't see the FLED actually flashing, but I
                        can see it flashing when I use a 1K to 10K resistor. Only if I use 22K
                        it stops flashing.
                        >
                        > Does anybody has the time to take a quick look at it?
                        >
                        > Thanks in advance! (and sorry for being such a noob ;-)
                        >



                      • Wouter De Vos
                        Thanks for the information! @supertigerchan: The circuit in your link is exactly the one that I tried to reproduce, I even used the picture in your other link
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 12, 2008
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                          Thanks for the information!

                          @supertigerchan: The circuit in your link is exactly the one that I tried to reproduce, I even used the picture in your other link to put in my breadboard. And it doesn't work... Could it be the flashing LED then? I don't know what else...
                           
                          @Myc Holmes: I ruled out the motors because I tested if the loaded capacitors could give a pulse strong enough to overcome their initial inertia. 5 out of my 7 motors passed this test so I guess those 5 shouldn't be a problem. Do you perhaps now if it could be the FLED? Are there different kinds of FLEDs? Maybe I have one with a too low trigger voltage? 

                          It seems that in my ciruit, both the 3906 and the 3904 transistor always stay open... I don't know that much about electronics but I also think it could be that my FLED is getting current through the still engine (it conducts when it's not running, doesn't it?), thereby making the base of the 3906 go low.

                           
                           

                           


                          From: supertigerchan <supertigerchan@...>
                          To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 1:52:24 PM
                          Subject: [beam] Re: 1st Symet attempt - question

                          If you have ruled out the motors, check your circuit again I guess.
                          There are some post publication corrections posted on the book support
                          site. Make sure you check it out.

                          Regarding the symet circuit, here are some updated pictures which you
                          can't go wrong with;

                          A nice and simple FLED solar engine schematic:
                          http://junkbots. solarbotics. com/images/ corrections/ F07-01.jpg

                          And a pic of the complete symet circuit on a breadboard:
                          http://junkbots. solarbotics. com/images/ corrections/ F07-04.jpg

                          --- In beam@yahoogroups. com, Wouter De Vos <skullforger000@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi all,
                          >
                          > As many of you suggested, I tried a lot of other motors with my
                          circuit, but none of them worked... I also tested the motors with a
                          simplified circuit : I put the capacitors in a circuit together with
                          the solar cells to load them, after a couple of seconds I connect the
                          motor and then it spins for about a second, then I remove the motor
                          again, and put the capacitor back in to load and I start over again
                          (like a 'manual' solar engine). So I guess that rules out the problem
                          of the motors being not suitable, or did I make a mistake?
                          >
                          > I also tested my flashing LED, and I saw that it conducts about 0.2
                          mA even if it is off (in between flashes or if the voltage is too
                          low). Should this be zero and could that be the problem?
                          >
                          > I still find it strange that everyone seems fine with a 2.2K
                          resistor, and that my FLED still flashes even if I use a 15K...
                          > Help is still welcome. You can see the measurements in my circuits
                          in my first post.
                          >
                          > Thanks in advance!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ____________ _________ _________ __
                          > From: supertigerchan <supertigerchan@ ...>
                          > To: beam@yahoogroups. com
                          > Sent: Tuesday, November 4, 2008 8:19:25 PM
                          > Subject: [beam] Re: 1st Symet attempt - question
                          >
                          >
                          > Hey there,
                          >
                          > I used the same circuit and had much the same initial problems as you
                          > are facing.
                          >
                          > By process of elimination, it turned out the motors (I tried quite a
                          > few) were the culprits..
                          >
                          > The motors I used were so called "hobby" motors, even though some are
                          > rated at 1.5v, they need quite a bit of current to start.
                          >
                          > I think if you followed the instructions as per the book, your circuit
                          > should be fine. It's most likely your motor.
                          >
                          > Before anything else, do try and swap in another motor just to check.
                          > Try to get a good motor. They should be low current efficient motors.
                          > Pager motors will very likely work, motors from portable devices
                          > (walkmans, cdplayers etc.) are good too.
                          >
                          > Good luck and Have fun!
                          >
                          > --- In beam@yahoogroups. com, Wouter De Vos <skullforger000@ ...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi,
                          > >
                          > > I don't know if it is appropriate for a noob to post a question
                          > here? Please tell me if it is unappropriate.
                          > >
                          > > I am taking my first steps in electronics, and I bought the book
                          > Junkbots, Bugbots & Bots on Wheels about BEAM bots. I copied the Symet
                          > circuit on my breadboard, but it doesn't seem to work... First I
                          > thought my motor was too heavy, but I can run it with just one 1.5V
                          > battery, so I guess that shouldn't be the problem.
                          > >
                          > > I have done some measurements with a multimeter at different places
                          > in my circuit, so perhaps it easier for you guys to maybe troubleshoot
                          > a bit? I'll add a small picture in my mail. (the values in the circles
                          > are Volt readings, the sinus means that I got an alternating reading -
                          > I guess because of the FLED) (I put an arrow with a question mark to
                          > the value that I think shows that there is somethingn wrong)
                          > >
                          > > The book says that I shouldn't see the FLED actually flashing, but I
                          > can see it flashing when I use a 1K to 10K resistor. Only if I use 22K
                          > it stops flashing.
                          > >
                          > > Does anybody has the time to take a quick look at it?
                          > >
                          > > Thanks in advance! (and sorry for being such a noob ;-)
                          > >
                          >


                        • caleb pearson
                          try going to the beam faq and reading on its solarengine page.. it will hopefully help. http://faq.solarbotics.net/oscillate.html To: beam@yahoogroups.comFrom:
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 12, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            try going to the beam faq and reading on its solarengine page..
                            it will hopefully help.
                            http://faq.solarbotics.net/oscillate.html




                            To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                            From: supertigerchan@...
                            Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:52:24 +0000
                            Subject: [beam] Re: 1st Symet attempt - question


                            If you have ruled out the motors, check your circuit again I guess.
                            There are some post publication corrections posted on the book support
                            site. Make sure you check it out.

                            Regarding the symet circuit, here are some updated pictures which you
                            can't go wrong with;

                            A nice and simple FLED solar engine schematic:
                            http://junkbots. solarbotics. com/images/ corrections/ F07-01.jpg

                            And a pic of the complete symet circuit on a breadboard:
                            http://junkbots. solarbotics. com/images/ corrections/ F07-04.jpg

                            --- In beam@yahoogroups. com, Wouter De Vos <skullforger000@ ...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi all,
                            >
                            > As many of you suggested, I tried a lot of other motors with my
                            circuit, but none of them worked... I also tested the motors with a
                            simplified circuit : I put the capacitors in a circuit together with
                            the solar cells to load them, after a couple of seconds I connect the
                            motor and then it spins for about a second, then I remove the motor
                            again, and put the capacitor back in to load and I start over again
                            (like a 'manual' solar engine). So I guess that rules out the problem
                            of the motors being not suitable, or did I make a mistake?
                            >
                            > I also tested my flashing LED, and I saw that it conducts about 0.2
                            mA even if it is off (in between flashes or if the voltage is too
                            low). Should this be zero and could that be the problem?
                            >
                            > I still find it strange that everyone seems fine with a 2.2K
                            resistor, and that my FLED still flashes even if I use a 15K...
                            > Help is still welcome. You can see the measurements in my circuits
                            in my first post.
                            >
                            > Thanks in advance!
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ____________ _________ _________ __
                            > From: supertigerchan <supertigerchan@ ...>
                            > To: beam@yahoogroups. com
                            > Sent: Tuesday, November 4, 2008 8:19:25 PM
                            > Subject: [beam] Re: 1st Symet attempt - question
                            >
                            >
                            > Hey there,
                            >
                            > I used the same circuit and had much the same initial problems as you
                            > are facing.
                            >
                            > By process of elimination, it turned out the motors (I tried quite a
                            > few) were the culprits..
                            >
                            > The motors I used were so called "hobby" motors, even though some are
                            > rated at 1.5v, they need quite a bit of current to start.
                            >
                            > I think if you followed the instructions as per the book, your circuit
                            > should be fine. It's most likely your motor.
                            >
                            > Before anything else, do try and swap in another motor just to check.
                            > Try to get a good motor. They should be low current efficient motors.
                            > Pager motors will very likely work, motors from portable devices
                            > (walkmans, cdplayers etc.) are good too.
                            >
                            > Good luck and Have fun!
                            >
                            > --- In beam@yahoogroups. com, Wouter De Vos <skullforger000@ ...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi,
                            > >
                            > > I don't know if it is appropriate for a noob to post a question
                            > here? Please tell me if it is unappropriate.
                            > >
                            > > I am taking my first steps in electronics, and I bought the book
                            > Junkbots, Bugbots & Bots on Wheels about BEAM bots. I copied the Symet
                            > circuit on my breadboard, but it doesn't seem to work... First I
                            > thought my motor was too heavy, but I can run it with just one 1.5V
                            > battery, so I guess that shouldn't be the problem.
                            > >
                            > > I have done some measurements with a multimeter at different places
                            > in my circuit, so perhaps it easier for you guys to maybe troubleshoot
                            > a bit? I'll add a small picture in my mail. (the values in the circles
                            > are Volt readings, the sinus means that I got an alternating reading -
                            > I guess because of the FLED) (I put an arrow with a question mark to
                            > the value that I think shows that there is somethingn wrong)
                            > >
                            > > The book says that I shouldn't see the FLED actually flashing, but I
                            > can see it flashing when I use a 1K to 10K resistor. Only if I use 22K
                            > it stops flashing.
                            > >
                            > > Does anybody has the time to take a quick look at it?
                            > >
                            > > Thanks in advance! (and sorry for being such a noob ;-)
                            > >
                            >




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                          • caleb pearson
                            heres something that might apply to you. (A word of warning: some small recorder motors have a built-in capacitor of about 20 nanofarad. The 2-transistor FLED
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 12, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              heres something that might apply to you.
                               
                              (A word of warning: some small recorder motors have a built-in capacitor of about 20 nanofarad. The 2-transistor FLED SE won't work with such a motor - it will start to oscillate, sometimes audibly. Without a scope, the typical symptom is `hangup' in reset. The SE fires once, then stops, the voltage over the storage cap remaining at less than 1.0V. Both SunEaters are immune to this problem, and will run such motors.)
                              http://faq.solarbotics.net/oscillate.html
                               
                              Caleb



                              To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                              From: mycroft2152y@...
                              Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:47:38 -0500
                              Subject: Re: [beam] Re: 1st Symet attempt - question


                              Welcome to the world of BEAM!

                              One note about motors and BEAM: 

                              Not all motors are BEAMable. Motors tend to be power hungry little beasts. If you have a meter, check the resistance of the motor. The higher the resistance the more friendly  it will be. 

                              Motors need a large initial startup current pulse  to overcome inertia and get the motor turning. This drains the SE and some transistors will not be able to supply that current.

                              Myc

                              On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 5:37 PM, Wouter De Vos <skullforger000@ yahoo.com> wrote:


                              Hi all,
                               
                              As many of you suggested, I tried a lot of other motors with my circuit, but none of them worked... I also tested the motors with a simplified circuit : I put the capacitors in a circuit together with the solar cells to load them, after a couple of seconds I connect the motor and then it spins for about a second, then I remove the motor again, and put the capacitor back in to load and I start over again (like a 'manual' solar engine). So I guess that rules out the problem of the motors being not suitable, or did I make a mistake?

                              I also tested my flashing LED, and I saw that it conducts about 0.2 mA even if it is off (in between flashes or if the voltage is too low). Should this be zero and could that be the problem?
                              I still find it strange that everyone seems fine with a 2.2K resistor, and that my FLED still flashes even if I use a 15K...
                              Help is still welcome. You can see the measurements in my circuits in my first post.
                              Thanks in advance!
                               

                               

                              From: supertigerchan <supertigerchan@ yahoo.com. tw>
                              To: beam@yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Tuesday, November 4, 2008 8:19:25 PM
                              Subject: [beam] Re: 1st Symet attempt - question


                              Hey there,

                              I used the same circuit and had much the same initial problems as you
                              are facing.

                              By process of elimination, it turned out the motors (I tried quite a
                              few) were the culprits.

                              The motors I used were so called "hobby" motors, even though some are
                              rated at 1.5v, they need quite a bit of current to start.

                              I think if you followed the instructions as per the book, your circuit
                              should be fine. It's most likely your motor.

                              Before anything else, do try and swap in another motor just to check.
                              Try to get a good motor. They should be low current efficient motors.
                              Pager motors will very likely work, motors from portable devices
                              (walkmans, cdplayers etc.) are good too.

                              Good luck and Have fun!

                              --- In beam@yahoogroups. com, Wouter De Vos <skullforger000@ ...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi,
                              >
                              > I don't know if it is appropriate for a noob to post a question
                              here? Please tell me if it is unappropriate.
                              >
                              > I am taking my first steps in electronics, and I bought the book
                              Junkbots, Bugbots & Bots on Wheels about BEAM bots. I copied the Symet
                              circuit on my breadboard, but it doesn't seem to work... First I
                              thought my motor was too heavy, but I can run it with just one 1.5V
                              battery, so I guess that shouldn't be the problem.
                              >
                              > I have done some measurements with a multimeter at different places
                              in my circuit, so perhaps it easier for you guys to maybe troubleshoot
                              a bit? I'll add a small picture in my mail. (the values in the circles
                              are Volt readings, the sinus means that I got an alternating reading -
                              I guess because of the FLED) (I put an arrow with a question mark to
                              the value that I think shows that there is somethingn wrong)
                              >
                              > The book says that I shouldn't see the FLED actually flashing, but I
                              can see it flashing when I use a 1K to 10K resistor. Only if I use 22K
                              it stops flashing.
                              >
                              > Does anybody has the time to take a quick look at it?
                              >
                              > Thanks in advance! (and sorry for being such a noob ;-)
                              >








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                            • jonjb2a
                              -I ve noticed that feature (built in cap). That can really confound things a bit. Once again, discovered from my own trial and error, which motors work well
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 12, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                -I've noticed that feature (built in cap). That can really confound things a bit. Once again,
                                discovered from my own trial and error, which motors work well with SEs.--the select few in
                                my collection. Glad to know I've since branched out into building other BEAM bots. Thanks for
                                the info.
                              • Leon
                                I ve just seen the color photograph of the FLED circuit used i the book. Interesting how a green FLED was used in the picture and a red FLED was specified in
                                Message 15 of 23 , Nov 15, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I've just seen the color photograph of the FLED circuit used i the book. Interesting how a green FLED was used in the picture and a red FLED was specified in the book's text. I'll have to get some different FLED colors and see if it makes a difference when getting some of the more difficult motors to trigger.


                                • jonjb2a
                                  Go figure. It would be interesting to see whether the discrepancy is noted on the Junkbots, Bugbots & Bots on wheels website, under Corrections or whatever
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Nov 15, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Go figure. It would be interesting to see whether the discrepancy is noted on the Junkbots,
                                    Bugbots & Bots on wheels website, under "Corrections" or whatever that section is.

                                    I've used red FLEDs for some Symets and green ones for others, just because I felt like it
                                    (yeah, go figure once again). After following the book's instructions word for word the first
                                    time with each project (including symets), I prefer to wing it and try making my own
                                    discoveries, even building bots "my way." That way, the book remains a guide, rather than a
                                    manual I "must" follow to the letter.
                                  • Leon
                                    Yeah, I learn more from experimenting than from following things word by word.
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Nov 15, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Yeah, I learn more from experimenting than from following things word by word.



                                      On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 6:05 AM, jonjb2a <jonjb2a@...> wrote:

                                      Go figure. It would be interesting to see whether the discrepancy is noted on the Junkbots,
                                      Bugbots & Bots on wheels website, under "Corrections" or whatever that section is.

                                      I've used red FLEDs for some Symets and green ones for others, just because I felt like it
                                      (yeah, go figure once again). After following the book's instructions word for word the first
                                      time with each project (including symets), I prefer to wing it and try making my own
                                      discoveries, even building bots "my way." That way, the book remains a guide, rather than a
                                      manual I "must" follow to the letter.


                                    • jonjb2a
                                      There are tradeoffs.
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Nov 16, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        There are tradeoffs.
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