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BEAM wiki difficulties, help anyone?

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  • praetorious
    Heya all! Been having some issues with the BEAM wiki. For some reason when i try to access circuit schematics or biomorphic maps in the BEAMuseum Unibug or
    Message 1 of 26 , Aug 13, 2008
      Heya all!

      Been having some issues with the BEAM wiki.
      For some reason when i try to access circuit schematics or biomorphic
      maps in the BEAMuseum Unibug or Vbug pages, there are no images.
      Nothing loads for schematics or biomorphic maps.
      I thought it might be a wrap issue but following the links doesn't work.

      Any help please, trying to find schematic for Vbug 1.3 turtle and
      strider...

      Thanks,
      Amit
    • J Wolfgang Goerlich
      Hello, I uploaded the biomorphic map and circuit diagram for Strider. Now Vbug 1.3 Turtle and Vbug 1.5 Walkman have essentially the same Nv Net. You can
      Message 2 of 26 , Aug 13, 2008
        Hello,

        I uploaded the biomorphic map and circuit diagram for Strider.

        Now Vbug 1.3 "Turtle" and Vbug 1.5 "Walkman" have essentially the
        same Nv Net. You can see this in a note from Tilden, where he writes
        that Walkman's "Basenet: as concluded from 1.3."

        http://costaricabeam.solarbotics.net/Info/VBug1.5/VbugScanned.gif

        Check out this page for a detailed schematic and wiring diagram.

        http://costaricabeam.solarbotics.net/Info/VBug1.5_Main.htm

        The mechanics is the difference between Turtle and Walkman. See this
        document for a photograph of Turtle's layout.

        http://www.solarbotics.net/library/pdflib/pdf/lanlpost.pdf

        Regards,

        J Wolfgang Goerlich
        --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "praetorious" <amitjones101@...> wrote:
        >
        > Heya all!
        >
        > Been having some issues with the BEAM wiki.
        > For some reason when i try to access circuit schematics or
        biomorphic
        > maps in the BEAMuseum Unibug or Vbug pages, there are no images.
        > Nothing loads for schematics or biomorphic maps.
        > I thought it might be a wrap issue but following the links doesn't
        work.
        >
        > Any help please, trying to find schematic for Vbug 1.3 turtle and
        > strider...
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Amit
        >
      • praetorious
        Hi! Thanks Mr. J Wolfgang Goerlich for the file uploads. Yes, from looking at te biomorphic map of Turtle and walkman from living machines i noticed tha they
        Message 3 of 26 , Aug 13, 2008
          Hi!

          Thanks Mr. J Wolfgang Goerlich for the file uploads. Yes, from looking
          at te biomorphic map of Turtle and walkman from living machines i
          noticed tha they are almost the same. Except that turtle i think has a
          6NV core whereas walkman has a quadcore.
          I have a sort of working breadboard for a turtle clone, but it has not
          been too successful... Well, compared to my Walkman clone anyways...

          Thanks and Best Regards,
          Amit

          P.S. The BEAM wiki is still freaking out on me, any ideas as to why?

          --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "J Wolfgang Goerlich" <jwgoerlich@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello,
          >
          > I uploaded the biomorphic map and circuit diagram for Strider.
          >
          > Now Vbug 1.3 "Turtle" and Vbug 1.5 "Walkman" have essentially the
          > same Nv Net. You can see this in a note from Tilden, where he writes
          > that Walkman's "Basenet: as concluded from 1.3."
          >
          > http://costaricabeam.solarbotics.net/Info/VBug1.5/VbugScanned.gif
          >
          > Check out this page for a detailed schematic and wiring diagram.
          >
          > http://costaricabeam.solarbotics.net/Info/VBug1.5_Main.htm
          >
          > The mechanics is the difference between Turtle and Walkman. See this
          > document for a photograph of Turtle's layout.
          >
          > http://www.solarbotics.net/library/pdflib/pdf/lanlpost.pdf
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > J Wolfgang Goerlich
        • J Wolfgang Goerlich
          ... Which page? There are biomorphic maps for Lobster and Walkman. I think the only diagram for Turtle is the overlapping circles that shows sensor placement.
          Message 4 of 26 , Aug 13, 2008
            > Yes, from looking at te biomorphic map of Turtle and walkman from
            > living machines i noticed tha they are almost the same. Except that
            > turtle i think has a 6NV core whereas walkman has a quadcore.

            Which page? There are biomorphic maps for Lobster and Walkman. I
            think the only diagram for Turtle is the overlapping circles that
            shows sensor placement. Lobster's a 6 Nv core, maybe that's the one
            you are looking at?


            > I have a sort of working breadboard for a turtle clone, but it has
            > not been too successful...

            Good luck. Please post some of what you see so that the group can
            give you feedback. We have a few excellent Walkman clones rambling
            around now. I'd love to see some Turtle clones join their ranks.


            > P.S. The BEAM wiki is still freaking out on me, any ideas as to why?

            Not sure. Hopefully, the Wiki webmasters will chime in.

            J Wolfgang Goerlich
          • praetorious
            Whoa! Wow, yes, you are correct i meant Lobster the whole time. For some reason turtle was stuck in my head. Lobster clone! Not turtle. The Lobster circuit is
            Message 5 of 26 , Aug 13, 2008
              Whoa!

              Wow, yes, you are correct i meant Lobster the whole time. For some
              reason turtle was stuck in my head. Lobster clone! Not turtle.
              The Lobster circuit is what i have breadboarded.

              I have got 1 HC14 for the hexcore, 1 for the Nu+ which are connected
              the hexcore, and another for the Nu- for the reverser and Nu+ Rc,
              Simply because i am not sure how and which of the 2 neurons were
              slaved 3 ways

              On a separate board i have the AC240's for driving the motors. I
              figure that the bot was identical to Walkman basically, except it has
              got those extra Nu's.

              The caption for Vbug 1.2 said that since Lobster's neural structure
              slaved 2 neurons in 3 ways and the other 4 one way they just row
              reduced(yay maths and systems of simultaneous equations) the network
              to that of Vbug 1.5 Walkman. So most of my circuitry resembles walkman's.


              Thanks,
              Amit
            • Marcus Nowotny
              Hi, Yes, the BEAM Wiki Webmaster will chime in ;) But he is confused. I can see all the pages under BEAM History without any problems. Which pages do you mean
              Message 6 of 26 , Aug 13, 2008
                Re: [beam] Re: BEAM wiki difficulties, help anyone? Hi,

                Yes, the BEAM Wiki Webmaster will chime in ;)
                But he is confused. I can see all the pages under BEAM History without any problems. Which pages do you mean especially? Is anyboy else having difficulties?
                Mr. Goerlich, am I allowed to copy your extended Vbug information over to the Wiki?
                And while I am at it, I got one little question to the BEAM community:

                Waht do you think about the BEAM Wiki ( http://www.beam-wiki.org/wiki/  )?
                Is is usabel?
                What resources do you need to add or edit pages?

                Thanks in advance

                    Marcus

                > Yes, from looking at te biomorphic map of Turtle and walkman from
                > living machines i noticed tha they are almost the same. Except that
                > turtle i think has a 6NV core whereas walkman has a quadcore.

                Which page? There are biomorphic maps for Lobster and Walkman. I
                think the only diagram for Turtle is the overlapping circles that
                shows sensor placement. Lobster's a 6 Nv core, maybe that's the one
                you are looking at?


                > I have a sort of working breadboard for a turtle clone, but it has
                > not been too successful...

                Good luck. Please post some of what you see so that the group can
                give you feedback. We have a few excellent Walkman clones rambling
                around now. I'd love to see some Turtle clones join their ranks.

                > P.S. The BEAM wiki is still freaking out on me, any ideas as to why?

                Not sure. Hopefully, the Wiki webmasters will chime in.

                J Wolfgang Goerlich

                 
                    
              • praetorious
                Hi, Thanks and nice to meet you Sir. My apologies for the confusion. Again, this is my mistake, i confused the wiki.solarbotics.net with beam-wiki.org. The
                Message 7 of 26 , Aug 13, 2008
                  Hi,

                  Thanks and nice to meet you Sir. My apologies for the confusion.
                  Again, this is my mistake, i confused the wiki.solarbotics.net with
                  beam-wiki.org.

                  The subtlety that caused the confusion is that on my browser, your
                  wiki is "BEAM Wiki", and the solarbotics one is "BEAMwiki"

                  Your wiki is great, the other one...
                  Otherwise your wiki is well laid out. I think under history the
                  coverage of the Vbug series needs a few more articles on the other
                  bots. Solarbotics wiki has coverage on Vbugs 1.1 through 1.3, and 1.5
                  through 1.7.
                  I think that under history Unibugs should be there too.

                  Otherwise as i said your wiki is great!

                  Thanks,
                  Amit


                  --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Nowotny <marcus.nowotny@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi,
                  >
                  > Yes, the BEAM Wiki Webmaster will chime in ;)
                  > But he is confused. I can see all the pages under BEAM History
                  without any
                  > problems. Which pages do you mean especially? Is anyboy else having
                  > difficulties?
                  > Mr. Goerlich, am I allowed to copy your extended Vbug information
                  over to
                  > the Wiki?
                  > And while I am at it, I got one little question to the BEAM community:
                  >
                  > Waht do you think about the BEAM Wiki (
                  http://www.beam-wiki.org/wiki/ )?
                  > Is is usabel?
                  > What resources do you need to add or edit pages?
                  >
                  > Thanks in advance
                  >
                  > Marcus
                  > >
                  > >> > Yes, from looking at te biomorphic map of Turtle and walkman from
                  > >> > living machines i noticed tha they are almost the same. Except that
                  > >> > turtle i think has a 6NV core whereas walkman has a quadcore.
                  > >
                  > > Which page? There are biomorphic maps for Lobster and Walkman. I
                  > > think the only diagram for Turtle is the overlapping circles that
                  > > shows sensor placement. Lobster's a 6 Nv core, maybe that's the one
                  > > you are looking at?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >> > I have a sort of working breadboard for a turtle clone, but it has
                  > >> > not been too successful...
                  > >
                  > > Good luck. Please post some of what you see so that the group can
                  > > give you feedback. We have a few excellent Walkman clones rambling
                  > > around now. I'd love to see some Turtle clones join their ranks.
                  > >
                  > >> > P.S. The BEAM wiki is still freaking out on me, any ideas as to
                  why?
                  > >
                  > > Not sure. Hopefully, the Wiki webmasters will chime in.
                  > >
                  > > J Wolfgang Goerlich
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Your Friendly Hogfather (J. deVries)
                  This doesn t refer to which wiki is which. I guess I ll have to wander off and check out that stuff. Anyhow, if you are referring to the classical Tilden
                  Message 8 of 26 , Aug 14, 2008
                    This doesn't refer to which wiki is which. I guess I'll have to wander off and check out that stuff.

                    Anyhow, if you are referring to the "classical Tilden lobster", you ought to have read by now that he considered it pretty much of a failure (see below) because it was an over-sensitive "nervous-network-wreck" (as it were). The image of the lobster to which I refer used to be on the LANL website (I think), and I've got a poster of it that I could make a pretty good photograph of if it isn't already in the solarbotics.net photogallery. In any case, it was an example of how difficult it -actually- is to scale-up "pure" nervous networks.

                    Incidentally, I also believe that although he called it "a lobster", it actually wasn't based on the neural system of an _actual_ lobster. He's a bright guy, but when it comes to nomenclature he tends to play, shall we say, fast and loose.


                    references:

                    http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/6897/mail3.html
                    which includes the Tilden quote:

                    > Lobster was an attempt at putting an Nv ring inside a homogeneous Nu ring,
                    > where the outputs of the Nu+'s feed trough a resistor into the bias input
                    > of an Nv. At the time, I thought I was making direct "learning Nv's" by
                    > this coupled association. However, it failed because the responsiveness of
                    > the Nv's was far higher than that of the Nu's, so at higher process numbers
                    > the adaptive benefits of the Nu network just cut out or became detrimental.
                    > Another lesson of the difficulty in making reactive-adaptive devices,
                    > lobster was and is a really good "bad" example of autonomous control
                    > higherarchies (sic). That's why I never published further details on it.

                    although there is a _lot_ more detail on that page. as a matter of fact, there is no evidence that Mark made -any- nervous network that actually showed "memory" much less "learning", although I'm willing to be corrected by anyone who can come up with absolutely clear information to the contrary. I'm fairly certain that he was more graphic about how badly it operated somewhere else, but I can't find that reference at the moment.


                    http://richfiles.solarbotics.net/AlgosFACTory.html
                    which includes this extremely short quote:

                    > Lobster (one of Tilden's more advanced neural network designs, consisting 5
                    > motor walker with 6 Nv- Neurons, 7 Nu+ neurons, and an Nu- neuron).

                    this accounting agrees with what I'm quite certain is the standard "diagram" for the Lobster as shown in the diagram in the next reference.


                    http://www-scf.usc.edu/~dongruiw/files/CPG.pdf
                    which is an excellent although moderately high-level treatment of (Hardware) Central Pattern Generators (thus the acronym CPG), including a fair amount about Tilden's work. It includes, for example, a typical Tilden-style diagram of "Complete neural structure of ‘Lobster’". Interestingly, it doesn't include any comment about Tilden's statement that the circuit doesn't work.



                    My yearly reminder to everyone:

                    THE ONE AND ONLY PATENT THAT MARK TILDEN EVER PUBLISHED (unless there are some dealing with his work at WowWee), IN BOTH CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES, EXPIRED QUITE A FEW YEARS AGO AND THUS HAS NO LEGAL FORCE WHATSOEVER.

                    people seem to keep forgetting that and sticking "use subject to the patent owner's approval" all over the place even now, years after the patent's expiration for some bizarre reason. of course, the patent also definitely ONLY covers "Spyder" and how, in particular, it was implemented and not BEAM in general, but that's just quibbling.


                    Your Friendly Hoggledy-Father
                  • J Wolfgang Goerlich
                    ... Yes, of course. As always, Marcus, you are welcome to re-use anything I write on this group or my Solarbotics website for the Beam Wiki. J Wolfgang
                    Message 9 of 26 , Aug 14, 2008
                      --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Nowotny <marcus.nowotny@...>
                      > Mr. Goerlich, am I allowed to copy your extended Vbug
                      > information over to the Wiki?

                      Yes, of course. As always, Marcus, you are welcome to re-use anything I
                      write on this group or my Solarbotics website for the Beam Wiki.

                      J Wolfgang Goerlich
                    • J Wolfgang Goerlich
                      Hello Amit, Lobster s Nv Net is very tricky. I have never quite gotten it to work correctly on my breadboard. Hence I have never published a circuit for it. I
                      Message 10 of 26 , Aug 14, 2008
                        Hello Amit,

                        Lobster's Nv Net is very tricky. I have never quite gotten it to work
                        correctly on my breadboard. Hence I have never published a circuit
                        for it. I recall reading somwhere that, in terms of time spent
                        tuning, Spyder and Lobster took Tilden the longest.

                        Any chance you might change your mind and do a Turtle clone? :-)

                        J Wolfgang Goerlich


                        --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "praetorious" <amitjones101@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Whoa!
                        >
                        > Wow, yes, you are correct i meant Lobster the whole time. For some
                        > reason turtle was stuck in my head. Lobster clone! Not turtle.
                        > The Lobster circuit is what i have breadboarded.
                        >
                        > I have got 1 HC14 for the hexcore, 1 for the Nu+ which are connected
                        > the hexcore, and another for the Nu- for the reverser and Nu+ Rc,
                        > Simply because i am not sure how and which of the 2 neurons were
                        > slaved 3 ways
                        >
                        > On a separate board i have the AC240's for driving the motors. I
                        > figure that the bot was identical to Walkman basically, except it
                        has
                        > got those extra Nu's.
                        >
                        > The caption for Vbug 1.2 said that since Lobster's neural structure
                        > slaved 2 neurons in 3 ways and the other 4 one way they just row
                        > reduced(yay maths and systems of simultaneous equations) the network
                        > to that of Vbug 1.5 Walkman. So most of my circuitry resembles
                        walkman's.
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        > Amit
                        >
                      • Marcus Nowotny
                        Hi, Thanks. I am happy to do this. But I want to clarify on this list: The Wiki is for anybody interested in BEAM! Anybody can feel free to contribute to the
                        Message 11 of 26 , Aug 14, 2008
                          Let us build the perfect BEAM Wiki (was Re: [beam] Re: BEAM wiki difficulties, help anyone?) Hi,

                          Thanks. I am happy to do this.

                          But I want to clarify on this list: The Wiki is for anybody interested in BEAM! Anybody can feel free to contribute to the WIKI. I got only limited time to copy over some stuff and most of the time I do not have enough time to polish up the textes.

                          I am happy about anybody (like Droidmaker is doing it currently) who helps me to make the BEAM Wiki the perfect BEAM resource. With you help it will be up to date, comprehensive and complete!

                          The BEAM Wiki is just hosted by me. It belongs to all BEAMERS! So, go over to http://www.beam-wiki.org/wiki and help the other BEAMERs by contributing ;)

                          If there is anything I can do for you to make using the Wiki easier, just drop me a note!

                          Thanks

                             Marcus

                          J Wolfgang Goerlich (jwgoerlich@...) schrieb am 14.08.08 10:42:


                           

                          --- In beam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:beam%40yahoogroups.com> , Marcus Nowotny <marcus.nowotny@...>
                          > Mr. Goerlich, am I allowed to copy your extended Vbug
                          > information over to the Wiki?

                          Yes, of course. As always, Marcus, you are welcome to re-use anything I
                          write on this group or my Solarbotics website for the Beam Wiki.

                          J Wolfgang Goerlich

                           
                              
                        • J Wolfgang Goerlich
                          Hello YFH, Let me start by saying that this post will not be absolutely clear, nor offer any evidence of memory. My Lobster experiments were with 8 Nu neuron
                          Message 12 of 26 , Aug 14, 2008
                            Hello YFH,

                            Let me start by saying that this post will not be absolutely clear, nor
                            offer any evidence of memory.

                            My Lobster experiments were with 8 Nu neuron rings. That is, I was
                            using Wilf Rigter's NuCore/NuRing designs. These offer neat wave form
                            responses to stimulus. It is not memory per se, but about the closest I
                            have seen in basic Beam circuits.

                            J Wolfgang Goerlich


                            Your Friendly Hogfather wrote:
                            > Anyhow, if you are referring to the "classical Tilden lobster" ...
                            > there is no evidence that Mark made -any- nervous network that
                            > actually showed "memory" much less "learning", although I'm willing
                            > to be corrected by anyone who can come up with absolutely clear
                            > information to the contrary.
                          • praetorious
                            Hi Mr. J Wolfgang Goerlich, Yes, the net is extremely tricky. Thanks for the heads up and also thanks to YFH for the information on Loster. I will have to get
                            Message 13 of 26 , Aug 14, 2008
                              Hi Mr. J Wolfgang Goerlich,

                              Yes, the net is extremely tricky. Thanks for the heads up and also
                              thanks to YFH for the information on Loster.
                              I will have to get some more info to do a Turtle clone, but i think a
                              Daggerwrist clone might be nice too. I have my Vbug 1.5 Walkman clone
                              and a few more like it in the works.
                              I think Daggerwrist my be interesting, didn't it have some kind of
                              60uH moving coil that it's eyes were attached to or some thing of that
                              sort, so that the eyes would sweep back and forth?

                              Well then i think i will try a Turtle clone after i finish my other
                              Walkman clones and my true hexapod, if it works...

                              Thanks and Best Regards,
                              Amit

                              --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "J Wolfgang Goerlich" <jwgoerlich@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Amit,
                              >
                              > Lobster's Nv Net is very tricky. I have never quite gotten it to work
                              > correctly on my breadboard. Hence I have never published a circuit
                              > for it. I recall reading somwhere that, in terms of time spent
                              > tuning, Spyder and Lobster took Tilden the longest.
                              >
                              > Any chance you might change your mind and do a Turtle clone? :-)
                              >
                              > J Wolfgang Goerlich
                            • praetorious
                              Hi YFH, Thank-you very much for that information. Sir. Especially that CPG pdf. I think i might as well scrap the lobster clone considering all the information
                              Message 14 of 26 , Aug 14, 2008
                                Hi YFH,

                                Thank-you very much for that information. Sir. Especially that CPG
                                pdf. I think i might as well scrap the lobster clone considering all
                                the information that i now know.

                                If only it was based on an actual lobster. On another note though we
                                now know the complete neural map of the nematode C. Elegans. There are
                                about 7000 neurons but we have no idea what their functions are...I
                                had a pdf knocking around with the structure it was given to me by Dr.
                                Vladimir Chaloupka from Washington University. it is extremely dense,
                                lines everywhere...

                                Thanks and Best Regards,
                                Amit

                                -- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "Your Friendly Hogfather (J. deVries)"
                                <hogfather@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > This doesn't refer to which wiki is which. I guess I'll have to
                                wander off and check out that stuff.
                                >
                                > Anyhow, if you are referring to the "classical Tilden lobster", you
                                ought to have read by now that he considered it pretty much of a
                                failure (see below) because it was an over-sensitive
                                "nervous-network-wreck" (as it were). The image of the lobster to
                                which I refer used to be on the LANL website (I think), and I've got a
                                poster of it that I could make a pretty good photograph of if it isn't
                                already in the solarbotics.net photogallery. In any case, it was an
                                example of how difficult it -actually- is to scale-up "pure" nervous
                                networks.
                                >
                                > Incidentally, I also believe that although he called it "a lobster",
                                it actually wasn't based on the neural system of an _actual_ lobster.
                                He's a bright guy, but when it comes to nomenclature he tends to play,
                                shall we say, fast and loose.
                                >
                                >
                                > references:
                                >
                                > http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/6897/mail3.html
                                > which includes the Tilden quote:
                                >
                                > > Lobster was an attempt at putting an Nv ring inside a homogeneous
                                Nu ring,
                                > > where the outputs of the Nu+'s feed trough a resistor into the
                                bias input
                                > > of an Nv. At the time, I thought I was making direct "learning
                                Nv's" by
                                > > this coupled association. However, it failed because the
                                responsiveness of
                                > > the Nv's was far higher than that of the Nu's, so at higher
                                process numbers
                                > > the adaptive benefits of the Nu network just cut out or became
                                detrimental.
                                > > Another lesson of the difficulty in making reactive-adaptive devices,
                                > > lobster was and is a really good "bad" example of autonomous control
                                > > higherarchies (sic). That's why I never published further details
                                on it.
                                >
                                > although there is a _lot_ more detail on that page. as a matter of
                                fact, there is no evidence that Mark made -any- nervous network that
                                actually showed "memory" much less "learning", although I'm willing to
                                be corrected by anyone who can come up with absolutely clear
                                information to the contrary. I'm fairly certain that he was more
                                graphic about how badly it operated somewhere else, but I can't find
                                that reference at the moment.
                                >
                                >
                                > http://richfiles.solarbotics.net/AlgosFACTory.html
                                > which includes this extremely short quote:
                                >
                                > > Lobster (one of Tilden's more advanced neural network designs,
                                consisting 5
                                > > motor walker with 6 Nv- Neurons, 7 Nu+ neurons, and an Nu- neuron).
                                >
                                > this accounting agrees with what I'm quite certain is the standard
                                "diagram" for the Lobster as shown in the diagram in the next reference.
                                >
                                >
                                > http://www-scf.usc.edu/~dongruiw/files/CPG.pdf
                                > which is an excellent although moderately high-level treatment of
                                (Hardware) Central Pattern Generators (thus the acronym CPG),
                                including a fair amount about Tilden's work. It includes, for example,
                                a typical Tilden-style diagram of "Complete neural structure of
                                ‘Lobster’". Interestingly, it doesn't include any comment about
                                Tilden's statement that the circuit doesn't work.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > My yearly reminder to everyone:
                                >
                                > THE ONE AND ONLY PATENT THAT MARK TILDEN EVER PUBLISHED (unless
                                there are some dealing with his work at WowWee), IN BOTH CANADA AND
                                THE UNITED STATES, EXPIRED QUITE A FEW YEARS AGO AND THUS HAS NO LEGAL
                                FORCE WHATSOEVER.
                                >
                                > people seem to keep forgetting that and sticking "use subject to the
                                patent owner's approval" all over the place even now, years after the
                                patent's expiration for some bizarre reason. of course, the patent
                                also definitely ONLY covers "Spyder" and how, in particular, it was
                                implemented and not BEAM in general, but that's just quibbling.
                                >
                                >
                                > Your Friendly Hoggledy-Father
                                >
                              • praetorious
                                Hi, Just need to correct myself, C. Elegans has 302 neurons, not the 7000 i said. I confused myself yet again.The nervous system contains approximately 2000
                                Message 15 of 26 , Aug 14, 2008
                                  Hi,

                                  Just need to correct myself, C. Elegans has 302 neurons, not the 7000
                                  i said. I confused myself yet again.The nervous system contains
                                  approximately 2000 neuromuscular junctions, 5000 chemical synapses
                                  between neurons, and 700 gap junctions.

                                  Best Regards,
                                  Amit
                                • Bill Noble
                                  schematic?? ... _________________________________________________________________ Talk to your Yahoo! Friends via Windows Live Messenger. Find out how.
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Aug 15, 2008
                                    schematic??

                                    --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "J Wolfgang Goerlich" wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello YFH,
                                    >
                                    > Let me start by saying that this post will not be absolutely clear, nor
                                    > offer any evidence of memory.
                                    >
                                    > My Lobster experiments were with 8 Nu neuron rings. That is, I was
                                    > using Wilf Rigter's NuCore/NuRing designs. These offer neat wave form
                                    > responses to stimulus. It is not memory per se, but about the closest I
                                    > have seen in basic Beam circuits.
                                    >
                                    > J Wolfgang Goerlich
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your Friendly Hogfather wrote:
                                    >> Anyhow, if you are referring to the "classical Tilden lobster" ...
                                    >> there is no evidence that Mark made -any- nervous network that
                                    >> actually showed "memory" much less "learning", although I'm willing
                                    >> to be corrected by anyone who can come up with absolutely clear
                                    >> information to the contrary.
                                    >

                                    _________________________________________________________________
                                    Talk to your Yahoo! Friends via Windows Live Messenger. Find out how.
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                                  • wilf_nv
                                    Beam memory? Nv neuron rings can act as memory for pulse patterns. As stated in Living Machines , the Lobster Nv core sustained 6 distinct pulse patterns
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Aug 16, 2008
                                      Beam memory?

                                      Nv neuron rings can act as memory for pulse patterns. As stated
                                      in "Living Machines", the Lobster Nv core sustained 6 distinct pulse
                                      patterns which could be invoked by external input conditions. Nu
                                      neurons can be connected as a short term memory and any dc positive
                                      feedback can lock up a circuit in a high or low state.

                                      Nv neurons are simple series input capacitor/grounded resistor
                                      networks with the midpoint buffered with a cmos Schmitt inverter.

                                      Nu neurons are a simple series input resistor/grounded capacitor
                                      networks with the midpoint buffered with a cmos Schmitt inverter.

                                      Nv neurons, are capacitively coupled, edge triggered differentiators
                                      which clamp the capacitor voltage at the inverter input to 0V or Vcc,
                                      effectively ignoring any residual dc component of the input waveforms.

                                      Nu neurons, are dc coupled integrators, voltage level triggered and
                                      sensitive to the average dc voltage component of the input waveforms.

                                      Nv neurons can be connected in series as Nv strings.

                                      Positive and negative pulses applied to the input Nv neuron will
                                      cause a series of independent pulse width output pulses to be
                                      generated according to the time constant of each Nv neuron. The pulse
                                      width of each positive and negative pulse must be longer duration
                                      than the longest time constant of any odd and even numbered Nv in the
                                      string.

                                      Nu neurons can be connected in series as Nu strings.

                                      Positive and negative pulses applied to the input Nv neuron will
                                      cause a series of output levels to be generated delayed according to
                                      the time constant of each stage and the averaged dc component of the
                                      input waveforms. For all outputs to activate, the duration of each
                                      input pulse must be longer than the sum of the time constants.

                                      Strings of (usually even number) Nv neurons can be connected end to
                                      end to form Nv rings.

                                      Nv rings propagate waveform changes, block dc and are capable of
                                      sustaining a number of stable pulse patterns.

                                      Strings of odd numbers of Nu neurons can be can connected end to end
                                      to form Nu rings.

                                      Unlike an Nv ring (e.g. microcore) which has independent Nv time
                                      constants, the neurons of a Nu ring have interacting time constants.
                                      Changing the pulse width of one Nu affects all other Nu pulse widths
                                      because changing an output duty cycle changes the dc component of the
                                      waveform which propagates through the resistors to the other Nu
                                      neurons in the ring.

                                      The odd number of inverters required for a Nu ring generates overall
                                      negative dc feedback, which rapidly converges the pulse pattern in
                                      this circuit on periodic uniformly overlapping squarewaves at the
                                      outputs. A single dynamic state, a memory doth not make.

                                      Nu memory:

                                      Single Nu neurons are normally used as a very short term memory. The
                                      most familiar applications are the classic PNC circuit and the
                                      tactile sensor Nu.

                                      In effect, these Nu neurons have two inputs (diode+resistor and
                                      switch+resistor) which set and reset the Nu neuron with a fast
                                      pickup time and slow release time. The Schmitt inverter cmos gain
                                      stage of the Nu neuron compares the analog levels at the input with
                                      internal thresholds and when the output changes high or low, this
                                      normally changes the behaviour of the controlled circuit connected to
                                      that output.

                                      It is possible to connect two inverters or a non-inverting buffer
                                      input to output to form a dc state memory. Combinations of weighted
                                      resistor sum and difference networks to sum multiple input levels can
                                      set or reset this memory cell when the input conditions exceed
                                      thresholds. These are sometimes called voting or majority logic
                                      circuits.

                                      By shokking the tri-state enables of HC240 latching bicore circuits,
                                      these act as toggling flip-flops which connected in series can form
                                      digital counters.

                                      I proposed have tested a long term, three (not tri) state memory cell
                                      which has opens up more ways for a circuit to react to a remebered
                                      state.

                                      So for the right kind of applications, I believe there are lots of
                                      beam memories to choose from.

                                      wilf


                                      --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "J Wolfgang Goerlich" <jwgoerlich@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello YFH,
                                      >
                                      > Let me start by saying that this post will not be absolutely clear,
                                      nor
                                      > offer any evidence of memory.
                                      >
                                      > My Lobster experiments were with 8 Nu neuron rings. That is, I was
                                      > using Wilf Rigter's NuCore/NuRing designs. These offer neat wave
                                      form
                                      > responses to stimulus. It is not memory per se, but about the
                                      closest I
                                      > have seen in basic Beam circuits.
                                      >
                                      > J Wolfgang Goerlich
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Your Friendly Hogfather wrote:
                                      > > Anyhow, if you are referring to the "classical Tilden lobster" ...
                                      > > there is no evidence that Mark made -any- nervous network that
                                      > > actually showed "memory" much less "learning", although I'm
                                      willing
                                      > > to be corrected by anyone who can come up with absolutely clear
                                      > > information to the contrary.
                                      >
                                    • Your Friendly Hogfather (J. deVries)
                                      ... Be that as it may, I still stand behind my statement that -Tilden- never created any hardware that showed memory. As it is, I expostulated a form of memory
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Aug 16, 2008
                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        >From: wilf_nv <wrigter@...>
                                        >Sent: Aug 16, 2008 4:18 PM
                                        >To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                                        >Subject: [beam] Re: NuCore Lobster (was: BEAM wiki difficulties)
                                        >
                                        >Beam memory?

                                        Be that as it may, I still stand behind my statement that -Tilden- never created any hardware that showed memory.

                                        As it is, I expostulated a form of memory about ten years ago that was based on the methods used in the digital "bubble memories" that were being considered about twenty years ago. The idea was to have a number of Nv loops - for simplicity, all the same length - each containing from zero to n/2 processes (where n was the number of Nv elements, presumed to be even). Each of these would be a "slave" loop.

                                        One Nv neuron in each of the slave loops would be designated as the output of its loop. For all intents and purposes, a "word" of values (actually, simultaneous process states) could be "plucked off" to either be used directly or to "jam-input" a "master" loop whose length was the same as the number of "slave" loops. Each and every Nv element in all of the loops would have to be tuned extremely carefully to produce exactly the same RC constant or else there would be a continual sync problem.

                                        Likewise, a -different- Nv neuron in the slave loops would be used to "jam-input" a process state into that loop. Herein lies a difficulty, however: since there is no underlying synchronizing method, it might be possible to jam a process into a slave loop that either was inconsistent with the state of that loop (that is, three adjacent Nv units all having the same output level) or worse yet to cause the slave loop to enter a hyper-saturation state. Basically, it would probably require some kind of clocking to make this work properly.


                                        This, of course, is only one possible way of producing a "memory" that might be able to store a fair amount of information. Thus I reiterate: I've never said that it wasn't possible, just that Tilden never was able to show that he did it. Speculating on various techniques -today- that are possible doesn't change the past: more importantly, are there any BEAM devices that actually incorporate them?

                                        Covering ground that you probably hit in your article, there is the particular version of an Nv element that had a pull-up resistor connected to the same place as the usual pull-down resistor. If I'm not mistaken, these could be set to "store" a value and hold it (the 'latch'). That would permit at least the storage of one bit.


                                        The real point, however, is that creating memory with Nv/Nu/Shok technology all depends on an inordinate degree of trickery; furthermore, it isn't likely to be reliable and it is almost inevitably difficult to tune properly. As radical (ha!) as the notion might be, using digital memory (with corresponding digital clock & control mechanisms) are by far an easier way of producing this ability.

                                        To put it another way: just because it is possible to _abuse_ what ARE actually digital integrated circuits in a method that produces interesting analog results (a vanilla Nv neuron being a case in point), it is neither necessary nor is it particularly desirable to do so in all cases. Even today, 14 years after Nv/Nu/Shok-style technology "hit the streets", this list is constantly bombarded by questions about how to get the simplest of circuits working "properly". Although it is -possible- to create devices using it, I also assert that it isn't a particularly -good- way of doing so.

                                        For example, how many Nv/Nu/Shok devices can be much more easily and reliably produced using simple 555-chip-based designs?

                                        All told, the entire concept of attempting to use Nv/Nu/Shok-style technology exclusively stemmed originally from Tilden's intense disdain for and prejudice against the use of "normal" digital circuitry. It is almost identical in form to Edison stating that DC power was the only way to distribute power and his campaign against AC systems. He worked with incredible zeal against AC systems. However, his opinion (strong though it might have been) simply wasn't supported by physics & AC power systems are how things actually exist today.

                                        I'd like to point out that ALL of the products that he has produced from WowWee - the B.I.O. Bug to whatever is the most recent - no longer uses Mark's original circuitry concepts. So -- ask yourself: Why? Personally, I think it is because that "original" sort of technology simply sucks when you are attempting to mass-produce reliable consumer-grade equipment.


                                        YfH
                                      • Richard Piotter
                                        I ve been looking for a C Elegans neural map for ages. I fount a net list once, but I simply didn t have the patience or time to work it out. Don t suppose you
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Aug 17, 2008
                                          I've been looking for a C Elegans neural map for ages. I fount a net
                                          list once, but I simply didn't have the patience or time to work it
                                          out. Don't suppose you still have that file, do you?

                                          Richard Piotter


                                          Begin forwarded message:
                                          > From: "praetorious" <amitjones101@...>
                                          > Date: August 14, 2008 6:31:15 PM CDT
                                          > To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: [beam] C. Elegans has 302 neurons sorry
                                          > Reply-To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Hi,
                                          > Just need to correct myself, C. Elegans has 302 neurons, not the
                                          > 7000 i said. I confused myself yet again.The nervous system
                                          > contains approximately 2000 neuromuscular junctions, 5000 chemical
                                          > synapses between neurons, and 700 gap junctions.
                                          >
                                          > Best Regards,
                                          >
                                          > Amit
                                          >

                                          Begin forwarded message:
                                          > From: "praetorious" <amitjones101@...>
                                          > Date: August 14, 2008 6:17:08 PM CDT
                                          > To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: [beam] Re: BEAM wiki difficulties, help anyone?
                                          > Reply-To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          > Hi YFH,
                                          >
                                          > Thank-you very much for that information. Sir. Especially that CPG
                                          > pdf. I think i might as well scrap the lobster clone considering all
                                          > the information that i now know.
                                          >
                                          > If only it was based on an actual lobster. On another note though we
                                          > now know the complete neural map of the nematode C. Elegans. There are
                                          > about 7000 neurons but we have no idea what their functions are...I
                                          > had a pdf knocking around with the structure it was given to me by Dr.
                                          > Vladimir Chaloupka from Washington University. it is extremely dense,
                                          > lines everywhere...
                                          >
                                          > Thanks and Best Regards,
                                          > Amit
                                          >
                                          > -- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "Your Friendly Hogfather (J. deVries)"
                                          > <hogfather@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > This doesn't refer to which wiki is which. I guess I'll have to
                                          > wander off and check out that stuff.
                                          > >
                                          > > Anyhow, if you are referring to the "classical Tilden lobster", you
                                          > ought to have read by now that he considered it pretty much of a
                                          > failure (see below) because it was an over-sensitive
                                          > "nervous-network-wreck" (as it were). The image of the lobster to
                                          > which I refer used to be on the LANL website (I think), and I've got a
                                          > poster of it that I could make a pretty good photograph of if it isn't
                                          > already in the solarbotics.net photogallery. In any case, it was an
                                          > example of how difficult it -actually- is to scale-up "pure" nervous
                                          > networks.
                                          > >
                                          > > Incidentally, I also believe that although he called it "a lobster",
                                          > it actually wasn't based on the neural system of an _actual_ lobster.
                                          > He's a bright guy, but when it comes to nomenclature he tends to play,
                                          > shall we say, fast and loose.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > references:
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/6897/mail3.html
                                          > > which includes the Tilden quote:
                                          > >
                                          > > > Lobster was an attempt at putting an Nv ring inside a homogeneous
                                          > Nu ring,
                                          > > > where the outputs of the Nu+'s feed trough a resistor into the
                                          > bias input
                                          > > > of an Nv. At the time, I thought I was making direct "learning
                                          > Nv's" by
                                          > > > this coupled association. However, it failed because the
                                          > responsiveness of
                                          > > > the Nv's was far higher than that of the Nu's, so at higher
                                          > process numbers
                                          > > > the adaptive benefits of the Nu network just cut out or became
                                          > detrimental.
                                          > > > Another lesson of the difficulty in making reactive-adaptive
                                          > devices,
                                          > > > lobster was and is a really good "bad" example of autonomous
                                          > control
                                          > > > higherarchies (sic). That's why I never published further details
                                          > on it.
                                          > >
                                          > > although there is a _lot_ more detail on that page. as a matter of
                                          > fact, there is no evidence that Mark made -any- nervous network that
                                          > actually showed "memory" much less "learning", although I'm willing to
                                          > be corrected by anyone who can come up with absolutely clear
                                          > information to the contrary. I'm fairly certain that he was more
                                          > graphic about how badly it operated somewhere else, but I can't find
                                          > that reference at the moment.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > http://richfiles.solarbotics.net/AlgosFACTory.html
                                          > > which includes this extremely short quote:
                                          > >
                                          > > > Lobster (one of Tilden's more advanced neural network designs,
                                          > consisting 5
                                          > > > motor walker with 6 Nv- Neurons, 7 Nu+ neurons, and an Nu-
                                          > neuron).
                                          > >
                                          > > this accounting agrees with what I'm quite certain is the standard
                                          > "diagram" for the Lobster as shown in the diagram in the next
                                          > reference.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www-scf.usc.edu/~dongruiw/files/CPG.pdf
                                          > > which is an excellent although moderately high-level treatment of
                                          > (Hardware) Central Pattern Generators (thus the acronym CPG),
                                          > including a fair amount about Tilden's work. It includes, for example,
                                          > a typical Tilden-style diagram of "Complete neural structure of
                                          > ‘Lobster’". Interestingly, it doesn't include any comment about
                                          > Tilden's statement that the circuit doesn't work.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > My yearly reminder to everyone:
                                          > >
                                          > > THE ONE AND ONLY PATENT THAT MARK TILDEN EVER PUBLISHED (unless
                                          > there are some dealing with his work at WowWee), IN BOTH CANADA AND
                                          > THE UNITED STATES, EXPIRED QUITE A FEW YEARS AGO AND THUS HAS NO LEGAL
                                          > FORCE WHATSOEVER.
                                          > >
                                          > > people seem to keep forgetting that and sticking "use subject to the
                                          > patent owner's approval" all over the place even now, years after the
                                          > patent's expiration for some bizarre reason. of course, the patent
                                          > also definitely ONLY covers "Spyder" and how, in particular, it was
                                          > implemented and not BEAM in general, but that's just quibbling.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Your Friendly Hoggledy-Father
                                        • praetorious
                                          Hi, I can t find the file for the life of me, but I emailed Dr. Chaloupka and hopefully he can send me a copy of the pdf. If he sends it i will put it up in
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Aug 17, 2008
                                            Hi,

                                            I can't find the file for the life of me, but I emailed Dr. Chaloupka
                                            and hopefully he can send me a copy of the pdf. If he sends it i will
                                            put it up in the files section ASAP.
                                            I don't know if it will help though, the thing is a mess of lines.
                                            Also i don't think it has the neurons tagged or sorted into groups
                                            although i do remember them being diff colours, maybe there was a legend.

                                            Best Regards,
                                            Amit




                                            --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, Richard Piotter <richfiles1@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I've been looking for a C Elegans neural map for ages. I fount a net
                                            > list once, but I simply didn't have the patience or time to work it
                                            > out. Don't suppose you still have that file, do you?
                                            >
                                            > Richard Piotter
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Begin forwarded message:
                                            > > From: "praetorious" <amitjones101@...>
                                            > > Date: August 14, 2008 6:31:15 PM CDT
                                            > > To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Subject: [beam] C. Elegans has 302 neurons sorry
                                            > > Reply-To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Hi,
                                            > > Just need to correct myself, C. Elegans has 302 neurons, not the
                                            > > 7000 i said. I confused myself yet again.The nervous system
                                            > > contains approximately 2000 neuromuscular junctions, 5000 chemical
                                            > > synapses between neurons, and 700 gap junctions.
                                            > >
                                            > > Best Regards,
                                            > >
                                            > > Amit
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > Begin forwarded message:
                                            > > From: "praetorious" <amitjones101@...>
                                            > > Date: August 14, 2008 6:17:08 PM CDT
                                            > > To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Subject: [beam] Re: BEAM wiki difficulties, help anyone?
                                            > > Reply-To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                                            > >
                                            > > Hi YFH,
                                            > >
                                            > > Thank-you very much for that information. Sir. Especially that CPG
                                            > > pdf. I think i might as well scrap the lobster clone considering all
                                            > > the information that i now know.
                                            > >
                                            > > If only it was based on an actual lobster. On another note though we
                                            > > now know the complete neural map of the nematode C. Elegans. There are
                                            > > about 7000 neurons but we have no idea what their functions are...I
                                            > > had a pdf knocking around with the structure it was given to me by Dr.
                                            > > Vladimir Chaloupka from Washington University. it is extremely dense,
                                            > > lines everywhere...
                                            > >
                                            > > Thanks and Best Regards,
                                            > > Amit
                                            > >
                                            > > -- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "Your Friendly Hogfather (J. deVries)"
                                            > > <hogfather@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > This doesn't refer to which wiki is which. I guess I'll have to
                                            > > wander off and check out that stuff.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Anyhow, if you are referring to the "classical Tilden lobster", you
                                            > > ought to have read by now that he considered it pretty much of a
                                            > > failure (see below) because it was an over-sensitive
                                            > > "nervous-network-wreck" (as it were). The image of the lobster to
                                            > > which I refer used to be on the LANL website (I think), and I've got a
                                            > > poster of it that I could make a pretty good photograph of if it isn't
                                            > > already in the solarbotics.net photogallery. In any case, it was an
                                            > > example of how difficult it -actually- is to scale-up "pure" nervous
                                            > > networks.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Incidentally, I also believe that although he called it "a lobster",
                                            > > it actually wasn't based on the neural system of an _actual_ lobster.
                                            > > He's a bright guy, but when it comes to nomenclature he tends to play,
                                            > > shall we say, fast and loose.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > references:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/6897/mail3.html
                                            > > > which includes the Tilden quote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > > Lobster was an attempt at putting an Nv ring inside a homogeneous
                                            > > Nu ring,
                                            > > > > where the outputs of the Nu+'s feed trough a resistor into the
                                            > > bias input
                                            > > > > of an Nv. At the time, I thought I was making direct "learning
                                            > > Nv's" by
                                            > > > > this coupled association. However, it failed because the
                                            > > responsiveness of
                                            > > > > the Nv's was far higher than that of the Nu's, so at higher
                                            > > process numbers
                                            > > > > the adaptive benefits of the Nu network just cut out or became
                                            > > detrimental.
                                            > > > > Another lesson of the difficulty in making reactive-adaptive
                                            > > devices,
                                            > > > > lobster was and is a really good "bad" example of autonomous
                                            > > control
                                            > > > > higherarchies (sic). That's why I never published further details
                                            > > on it.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > although there is a _lot_ more detail on that page. as a matter of
                                            > > fact, there is no evidence that Mark made -any- nervous network that
                                            > > actually showed "memory" much less "learning", although I'm willing to
                                            > > be corrected by anyone who can come up with absolutely clear
                                            > > information to the contrary. I'm fairly certain that he was more
                                            > > graphic about how badly it operated somewhere else, but I can't find
                                            > > that reference at the moment.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > http://richfiles.solarbotics.net/AlgosFACTory.html
                                            > > > which includes this extremely short quote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > > Lobster (one of Tilden's more advanced neural network designs,
                                            > > consisting 5
                                            > > > > motor walker with 6 Nv- Neurons, 7 Nu+ neurons, and an Nu-
                                            > > neuron).
                                            > > >
                                            > > > this accounting agrees with what I'm quite certain is the standard
                                            > > "diagram" for the Lobster as shown in the diagram in the next
                                            > > reference.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > http://www-scf.usc.edu/~dongruiw/files/CPG.pdf
                                            > > > which is an excellent although moderately high-level treatment of
                                            > > (Hardware) Central Pattern Generators (thus the acronym CPG),
                                            > > including a fair amount about Tilden's work. It includes, for example,
                                            > > a typical Tilden-style diagram of "Complete neural structure of
                                            > > ‘Lobster’". Interestingly, it doesn't include any comment about
                                            > > Tilden's statement that the circuit doesn't work.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > My yearly reminder to everyone:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > THE ONE AND ONLY PATENT THAT MARK TILDEN EVER PUBLISHED (unless
                                            > > there are some dealing with his work at WowWee), IN BOTH CANADA AND
                                            > > THE UNITED STATES, EXPIRED QUITE A FEW YEARS AGO AND THUS HAS NO LEGAL
                                            > > FORCE WHATSOEVER.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > people seem to keep forgetting that and sticking "use subject to the
                                            > > patent owner's approval" all over the place even now, years after the
                                            > > patent's expiration for some bizarre reason. of course, the patent
                                            > > also definitely ONLY covers "Spyder" and how, in particular, it was
                                            > > implemented and not BEAM in general, but that's just quibbling.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Your Friendly Hoggledy-Father
                                            >
                                          • wilf_nv
                                            Hi YFH, You have me at a historical disadvantage, having been there when Brosl (may he rest in peace) and Mark wrote Living Machines. I still find that paper
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Aug 17, 2008
                                              Hi YFH,

                                              You have me at a historical disadvantage, having been there when
                                              Brosl (may he rest in peace) and Mark wrote Living Machines. I still
                                              find that paper inspirational but, while it describes the neural
                                              structures of various machines, is lack the fine details of the
                                              actual circuits that were used. My recap of basic Nv and Nu circuits
                                              was for others not as familiar with beam electronics as you are
                                              and "to produce sharp mental images" for reference in the discussion.

                                              Memory is sparsely mentioned in Living Machines but if you accept
                                              that "The neuron core acts as a variable-rate, short term memory
                                              whose independent components have no knowledge of belonging to a
                                              larger organism" then Tilden did indeed create a form of memory.

                                              I suggest that multiple sustained pulse patterns in Nv cores, one of
                                              which can be randomly selected in response to external inputs is also
                                              a form of memory. An example of this is Mark's use of a RC Nu or PNC
                                              which, on power up, forces the NV core to select a single pulse
                                              pattern.

                                              On a larger scale, several Nu neurons using multiple diodes or other
                                              switching networks can be seen as a form of hard wired ROM, that act
                                              on the motor neuron layer by "injecting" one of several sustained
                                              pulse patterns into the Nv core in response to external conditions.

                                              Another mental image of a Nv core controlled by a Nu network is a
                                              serial shiftregister circulating data with parallel "jam" inputs and
                                              parallel outputs.

                                              By using Nv core outputs to do the "jamming", as in the AUTO PNC
                                              circuit, pulse patterns can be refreshed once per circulation to make
                                              such circuits more robust in maintaining a programmed pulse pattern.

                                              Lest these examples of beam memory strike you as primitive by
                                              comparison to digital memory, I see them as appropriate technology to
                                              directly "program" and test complex behaviors (e.g the gait) of a
                                              biomorphic organism in response to changes in its environment.

                                              To the question of whether Mark was able to scale these "simple but
                                              capable" beam memories to a higher order of complexity, I would say
                                              no, unless he incorporated virtual beam principles (imho an oximoron)
                                              into the programming of his WowWee robots.

                                              There are many appropriate applications where beam circuits can and
                                              do operate robustly. Beam circuits may be simple but understanding
                                              them well provides one with a sharp image of how electronics and
                                              machines interact. I have observed that beamers who venture into
                                              microcontroller territory, contributing also to those forums, often
                                              have a deep insight into dealing with the frequent problems of
                                              physically interfacing microcontrollers to the real world.


                                              wilf


                                              --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "Your Friendly Hogfather (J. deVries)"
                                              <hogfather@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > >From: wilf_nv <wrigter@...>
                                              > >Sent: Aug 16, 2008 4:18 PM
                                              > >To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                                              > >Subject: [beam] Re: NuCore Lobster (was: BEAM wiki difficulties)
                                              > >
                                              > >Beam memory?
                                              >
                                              > Be that as it may, I still stand behind my statement that -Tilden-
                                              never created any hardware that showed memory.
                                              >
                                              > As it is, I expostulated a form of memory about ten years ago that
                                              was based on the methods used in the digital "bubble memories" that
                                              were being considered about twenty years ago. The idea was to have a
                                              number of Nv loops - for simplicity, all the same length - each
                                              containing from zero to n/2 processes (where n was the number of Nv
                                              elements, presumed to be even). Each of these would be a "slave" loop.
                                              >
                                              > One Nv neuron in each of the slave loops would be designated as the
                                              output of its loop. For all intents and purposes, a "word" of values
                                              (actually, simultaneous process states) could be "plucked off" to
                                              either be used directly or to "jam-input" a "master" loop whose
                                              length was the same as the number of "slave" loops. Each and every Nv
                                              element in all of the loops would have to be tuned extremely
                                              carefully to produce exactly the same RC constant or else there would
                                              be a continual sync problem.
                                              >
                                              > Likewise, a -different- Nv neuron in the slave loops would be used
                                              to "jam-input" a process state into that loop. Herein lies a
                                              difficulty, however: since there is no underlying synchronizing
                                              method, it might be possible to jam a process into a slave loop that
                                              either was inconsistent with the state of that loop (that is, three
                                              adjacent Nv units all having the same output level) or worse yet to
                                              cause the slave loop to enter a hyper-saturation state. Basically, it
                                              would probably require some kind of clocking to make this work
                                              properly.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > This, of course, is only one possible way of producing a "memory"
                                              that might be able to store a fair amount of information. Thus I
                                              reiterate: I've never said that it wasn't possible, just that Tilden
                                              never was able to show that he did it. Speculating on various
                                              techniques -today- that are possible doesn't change the past: more
                                              importantly, are there any BEAM devices that actually incorporate
                                              them?
                                              >
                                              > Covering ground that you probably hit in your article, there is the
                                              particular version of an Nv element that had a pull-up resistor
                                              connected to the same place as the usual pull-down resistor. If I'm
                                              not mistaken, these could be set to "store" a value and hold it
                                              (the 'latch'). That would permit at least the storage of one bit.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > The real point, however, is that creating memory with Nv/Nu/Shok
                                              technology all depends on an inordinate degree of trickery;
                                              furthermore, it isn't likely to be reliable and it is almost
                                              inevitably difficult to tune properly. As radical (ha!) as the notion
                                              might be, using digital memory (with corresponding digital clock &
                                              control mechanisms) are by far an easier way of producing this
                                              ability.
                                              >
                                              > To put it another way: just because it is possible to _abuse_ what
                                              ARE actually digital integrated circuits in a method that produces
                                              interesting analog results (a vanilla Nv neuron being a case in
                                              point), it is neither necessary nor is it particularly desirable to
                                              do so in all cases. Even today, 14 years after Nv/Nu/Shok-style
                                              technology "hit the streets", this list is constantly bombarded by
                                              questions about how to get the simplest of circuits
                                              working "properly". Although it is -possible- to create devices using
                                              it, I also assert that it isn't a particularly -good- way of doing so.
                                              >
                                              > For example, how many Nv/Nu/Shok devices can be much more easily
                                              and reliably produced using simple 555-chip-based designs?
                                              >
                                              > All told, the entire concept of attempting to use Nv/Nu/Shok-style
                                              technology exclusively stemmed originally from Tilden's intense
                                              disdain for and prejudice against the use of "normal" digital
                                              circuitry. It is almost identical in form to Edison stating that DC
                                              power was the only way to distribute power and his campaign against
                                              AC systems. He worked with incredible zeal against AC systems.
                                              However, his opinion (strong though it might have been) simply wasn't
                                              supported by physics & AC power systems are how things actually exist
                                              today.
                                              >
                                              > I'd like to point out that ALL of the products that he has produced
                                              from WowWee - the B.I.O. Bug to whatever is the most recent - no
                                              longer uses Mark's original circuitry concepts. So -- ask yourself:
                                              Why? Personally, I think it is because that "original" sort of
                                              technology simply sucks when you are attempting to mass-produce
                                              reliable consumer-grade equipment.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > YfH
                                              >
                                            • J Wolfgang Goerlich
                                              Right. I essentially wired an 8 Nu core to create a waveform based upon the inputs from the tactile sensors (four in front, two in the rear). The 6 Nv core
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Aug 18, 2008
                                                Right. I essentially wired an 8 Nu core to create a waveform based
                                                upon the inputs from the tactile sensors (four in front, two in the
                                                rear).

                                                The 6 Nv core created the pulse pattern for the motors. 6 Nus were
                                                connected to corresponding Nvs by a diode and resistor to the bias
                                                point. Thus the Nv had two time-outs: one when the Nu was active,
                                                another when inactive.

                                                Injecting pulses into the Nv core with one Nu, and removing pulses
                                                with another, gave me the most difficulty. In "Living Machines", the
                                                bottom Nu in the ring is used as the PNC (called "Reticular Cortex"
                                                at the time of the paper and marked RC in the biomorphic map.)

                                                Sorry BillN, there is no schematic. I was simply playing on the
                                                breadboard and trying to figure it out. I never had the 'net working
                                                satisfactorily.

                                                J Wolfgang Goerlich

                                                Wilf wrote:
                                                Nv neuron rings can act as memory for pulse patterns. As stated
                                                in "Living Machines", the Lobster Nv core sustained 6 distinct pulse
                                                patterns which could be invoked by external input conditions.

                                                Unlike an Nv ring (e.g. microcore) which has independent Nv time
                                                constants, the neurons of a Nu ring have interacting time constants.
                                                Changing the pulse width of one Nu affects all other Nu pulse widths
                                                because changing an output duty cycle changes the dc component of the
                                                waveform which propagates through the resistors to the other Nu
                                                neurons in the ring.

                                                Another mental image of a Nv core controlled by a Nu network is a
                                                serial shiftregister circulating data with parallel "jam" inputs and
                                                parallel outputs.
                                              • Craig
                                                Hi Folks! Happy New Year to ALL One thing I feel that we all have in common ( on this list ) is a creative nature and a strong urge to build. I ve always
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Dec 31, 2008
                                                  Hi Folks!



                                                  Happy New Year to ALL



                                                  One thing I feel that we all have in common ( on this list ) is a creative
                                                  nature and a strong urge to build. I've always enjoyed learning each of
                                                  your special skills during our Saturday Morning meetings and over this list,
                                                  but I would like to experiment with a new way of interacting, which I can
                                                  hopefully spread to all our sister robotics societies all across the world.



                                                  For over a year now I have been teaching, exploring, and building on the
                                                  Web2.0 application called Second Life. It's similar to a MMOG ( Massive
                                                  Multiplayer Online Game ) except that it more of a social, educational,
                                                  experiential environment. There are no rules or points scored, and no
                                                  objectives to reach, except those that users on this environment create them
                                                  selves.



                                                  In Second Live, Linden labs have created a number of servers ( 20,000 at
                                                  last count ) to create islands called SIMS where users can explore. The
                                                  Residents of SL ( Second Life ), or Av's ( Avatars ) are each given the
                                                  power to create objects, give them real world physical properties, and
                                                  script those objects to do whatever they choose. You can stream multimedia,
                                                  audio, voice, video, and pass video and objects back and forth amongst
                                                  themselves.



                                                  Over the past 5 years, the residents have created an entire world on line to
                                                  explore and interact in, including schools, churchs, night clubs, resorts,
                                                  space stations, hospitals and anything else you can imagine! Some of these
                                                  are a bit cheesy, and some are amazing, but all are generated by amateurs
                                                  like us.



                                                  I am a member of several in-world groups ( mostly educational ) and have
                                                  taught classes online. I have introduced SAIT Polytech to this environment
                                                  and we are building virtual classrooms and robotics labs.



                                                  The reason I am bothering you with this is I would like to have virtual
                                                  robotics meetings and challenges in this environment which can be enjoyed by
                                                  robotics groups all around the world! It's an amazing experience to chat
                                                  in-world with avatars and gives you a real sense of proximity to the people
                                                  you chat with. I find my creative side stimulated by the 3d modeling and
                                                  scripting involved in this environment, and am wild about the socializing
                                                  that occurs there.



                                                  I'd like you to sign up for a Second Life account and create an avatar (
                                                  It's absolutely free! ) and get used to the interface. We can build a SL
                                                  Robotics Society Group and try having in-world meetings and lectures there
                                                  with people from around the globe.



                                                  If you create an avatar, please email me its name or "friend" my avatar (
                                                  Mine is Klaatu Maynard ) and we will begin the journey into this Metaverse.




                                                  You can download the Second Life Viewer from www.secondlife.com



                                                  Any comments?



                                                  Hope to see you in-world!



                                                  Craig Maynard
                                                • Joshua Madara
                                                  Hello, Craig. I have been thinking about BEAM in SL for a while now, though I have not had opportunity to experiment with it. Clearly, some representation
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Jan 1, 2009
                                                    Hello, Craig. I have been thinking about BEAM in SL for a while now,
                                                    though I have not had opportunity to experiment with it. Clearly, some
                                                    representation would be required, but I suspect interesting behaviors
                                                    might emerge from SL robots modeled on BEAM principles.

                                                    One advantage over other sim environments is the variety of
                                                    entities/events to interact with, that are not specified or otherwise
                                                    anticipated by the robot's developer.

                                                    I'd be interested to hear from anyone doing this sort of work.

                                                    Best,
                                                    Joshua aka Machina Vita (SL name)


                                                    On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 12:26 AM, <beam@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                                    > Second Life Robotics Society
                                                    >
                                                    > Posted by: "Craig" craig@... dr_bitbucket
                                                    >
                                                    > Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:20 pm (PST)
                                                    >
                                                  • wilf_nv
                                                    Hi Craig, Great idea, in principle so I just signed up for my SL and took a walk around. A bit creepy for my taste and not without some virtual risks that
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Jan 1, 2009
                                                      Hi Craig,

                                                      Great idea, in principle so I just signed up for my SL and took a
                                                      walk around. A bit creepy for my taste and not without some virtual
                                                      risks that experienced SLrs should point out especially to caution
                                                      the younger crowd. You described environments like a lecture hall or
                                                      a robotics work shop. Are these "moderated" spaces, free of stalkers
                                                      and other unsavory characters?

                                                      regards

                                                      wilf


                                                      --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "Craig" <craig@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Hi Folks!
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Happy New Year to ALL
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > One thing I feel that we all have in common ( on this list ) is a
                                                      creative
                                                      > nature and a strong urge to build. I've always enjoyed learning
                                                      each of
                                                      > your special skills during our Saturday Morning meetings and over
                                                      this list,
                                                      > but I would like to experiment with a new way of interacting, which
                                                      I can
                                                      > hopefully spread to all our sister robotics societies all across
                                                      the world.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > For over a year now I have been teaching, exploring, and building
                                                      on the
                                                      > Web2.0 application called Second Life. It's similar to a MMOG (
                                                      Massive
                                                      > Multiplayer Online Game ) except that it more of a social,
                                                      educational,
                                                      > experiential environment. There are no rules or points scored, and
                                                      no
                                                      > objectives to reach, except those that users on this environment
                                                      create them
                                                      > selves.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > In Second Live, Linden labs have created a number of servers (
                                                      20,000 at
                                                      > last count ) to create islands called SIMS where users can
                                                      explore. The
                                                      > Residents of SL ( Second Life ), or Av's ( Avatars ) are each given
                                                      the
                                                      > power to create objects, give them real world physical properties,
                                                      and
                                                      > script those objects to do whatever they choose. You can stream
                                                      multimedia,
                                                      > audio, voice, video, and pass video and objects back and forth
                                                      amongst
                                                      > themselves.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Over the past 5 years, the residents have created an entire world
                                                      on line to
                                                      > explore and interact in, including schools, churchs, night clubs,
                                                      resorts,
                                                      > space stations, hospitals and anything else you can imagine! Some
                                                      of these
                                                      > are a bit cheesy, and some are amazing, but all are generated by
                                                      amateurs
                                                      > like us.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > I am a member of several in-world groups ( mostly educational ) and
                                                      have
                                                      > taught classes online. I have introduced SAIT Polytech to this
                                                      environment
                                                      > and we are building virtual classrooms and robotics labs.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > The reason I am bothering you with this is I would like to have
                                                      virtual
                                                      > robotics meetings and challenges in this environment which can be
                                                      enjoyed by
                                                      > robotics groups all around the world! It's an amazing experience
                                                      to chat
                                                      > in-world with avatars and gives you a real sense of proximity to
                                                      the people
                                                      > you chat with. I find my creative side stimulated by the 3d
                                                      modeling and
                                                      > scripting involved in this environment, and am wild about the
                                                      socializing
                                                      > that occurs there.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > I'd like you to sign up for a Second Life account and create an
                                                      avatar (
                                                      > It's absolutely free! ) and get used to the interface. We can
                                                      build a SL
                                                      > Robotics Society Group and try having in-world meetings and
                                                      lectures there
                                                      > with people from around the globe.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > If you create an avatar, please email me its name or "friend" my
                                                      avatar (
                                                      > Mine is Klaatu Maynard ) and we will begin the journey into this
                                                      Metaverse.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > You can download the Second Life Viewer from www.secondlife.com
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Any comments?
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Hope to see you in-world!
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Craig Maynard
                                                      >
                                                    • Craig
                                                      Well, of course, all the behaviors of your bots in SL would have to be scripted using the SL LSL language ( which would take away a lot of those wonderful
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Jan 4, 2009
                                                        Well, of course, all the behaviors of your 'bots in SL would have to be
                                                        scripted using the SL LSL language ( which would take away a lot of those
                                                        wonderful "emergent behaviours" we enjoy so much )

                                                        However, it would be a wonderful environment to showcase your mechanical
                                                        designs and have group workshops and classes on BEAM principles ( heck.. any
                                                        robotics principles! )

                                                        Tropic and phobic behaviors would be easy to model since objects may be
                                                        scripted to be attracted to ANY other object or attribute. Want to build a
                                                        Chromo-vore?? ( A bot attracted to reds?? ) You should be able to, if you
                                                        use your imagination!

                                                        Hehe

                                                        Craig

                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: beam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:beam@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joshua
                                                        Madara
                                                        Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 1:53 AM
                                                        To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: [beam] Re: Second Life Robotics Society

                                                        Hello, Craig. I have been thinking about BEAM in SL for a while now,
                                                        though I have not had opportunity to experiment with it. Clearly, some
                                                        representation would be required, but I suspect interesting behaviors
                                                        might emerge from SL robots modeled on BEAM principles.

                                                        One advantage over other sim environments is the variety of
                                                        entities/events to interact with, that are not specified or otherwise
                                                        anticipated by the robot's developer.

                                                        I'd be interested to hear from anyone doing this sort of work.

                                                        Best,
                                                        Joshua aka Machina Vita (SL name)


                                                        On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 12:26 AM, <beam@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                                        > Second Life Robotics Society
                                                        >
                                                        > Posted by: "Craig" craig@... dr_bitbucket
                                                        >
                                                        > Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:20 pm (PST)
                                                        >


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