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Re: Stryder electronics

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  • everyonelovesmathias
    Thanks a ton. In the same smithsonian article it is said that eosapiens like strider became possible when Tilden discovered what he calls his unicore
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 3, 2004
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      Thanks a ton. In the same smithsonian article it is said that
      "eosapiens like strider became possible when Tilden discovered what he
      calls his unicore structure" A shortened version of the article can
      be found here:
      http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/dfx/archives/0201/0201rob.asp

      Also, if you can find the video, please email it to me. I would love
      to see this thing walk. Thanks,
      Ty
    • everyonelovesmathias
      If anyone wants to see a time lapse of Stryder walking it can be found here: http://kineticfountain.com/Redefin5.jpg
      Message 2 of 23 , Oct 3, 2004
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        If anyone wants to see a time lapse of Stryder walking it can be found
        here:
        http://kineticfountain.com/Redefin5.jpg
      • J Wolfgang Goerlich
        Hello Ty, I have enjoyed the thread and eagerly await seeing your Stryder. Here ... Take a look at the original Unicore BEAMAnt 6 and the more recent Unicore
        Message 3 of 23 , Oct 4, 2004
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          Hello Ty,

          I have enjoyed the thread and eagerly await seeing your Stryder. Here
          is my two cents:

          > "eosapiens like strider became possible when Tilden discovered
          > what he calls his unicore structure"

          Take a look at the original Unicore BEAMAnt 6 and the more recent
          Unicore Junkbots BEAMAnt. Both of these feature four Nvs divided into
          two Bicores. The original used a Multi-Master architecture, while the
          Junkbots BEAMAnt uses a Master-Slave architecture.

          In any event, the Unicore appears to be a term for a Nervous Net
          using one or more coupled Bicores with accompanying neurons. I view
          this term in much the same way as the Microcore. The Microcore being
          a Quadcore with additional parts and motors.

          Tilden goes on to say: "This brain is connected to a 'nervous net'
          body that can hold onto rhythms. Non-unicore Walkman dances around
          rhythms very effectively, but it's limited. It can't evolve much
          further. With the unicore, you can actually remember, and move, and
          close that loop, so you have a structure which is pretty close to
          being an artificial life-form."

          To which, I interpret as follows: Walkman had a Quadcore.
          Any "implex" or shortening of an Nv's pulse only affects that Nv one
          time. Assuming the Quadcore remains in a single process state, the
          original pre-defined timing reasserts itself on the next Core cycle.

          Stryder's Unicore (or two linked Master/Slave Bicores) have timing
          that varies dynamically. If one leg gets stuck it will change its
          Bicore controller's timing. That variance finds its way into the
          coupled Bicore. In the same way, this coupled Bicore also influences
          the originating Bicore controller. Thus, a pattern of variance can be
          setup and held within the Core for a time period, rather than
          being "erased" on the next cycle.

          Sometimes, this influencing gets out of control. This is why Roswell
          and some Stryder clones require a "pace-maker" Bicore. This causes
          the Nervous Net to settle back into the predefined timing.

          Stryder's head is a photo Bicore. When the head reaches a certain
          point, it triggers a sensor that changes the timing within the
          Bicores (via an IMx, I assume). The quote from the article, "The
          secret of the Unicore is the neck", is misleading. The secret is not
          the physical neck but, rather, the slaving or coupling resistors.

          Hope that helps,

          J Wolfgang Goerlich


          Related Links:

          1. BEAMuseum > BEAMant6
          http://wiki.solarbotics.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BEAMant6

          2. Junkbots > Secret Project: The BEAMAnt
          http://junkbots.solarbotics.net/_specialproject/index.htm
        • everyonelovesmathias
          Thanks for replying. I was hoping you would, as you seem to know a lot, and you have been around here for a while. I have a few questions, so here goes. ...
          Message 4 of 23 , Oct 4, 2004
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            Thanks for replying. I was hoping you would, as you seem to know a
            lot, and you have been around here for a while. I have a few
            questions, so here goes.

            > Sometimes, this influencing gets out of control. This is why Roswell
            > and some Stryder clones require a "pace-maker" Bicore. This causes
            > the Nervous Net to settle back into the predefined timing.

            Is this bicore the same as the one that switches between the enables
            and the head circuit?

            > Stryder's head is a photo Bicore. When the head reaches a certain
            > point, it triggers a sensor that changes the timing within the
            > Bicores (via an IMx, I assume). The quote from the article, "The
            > secret of the Unicore is the neck", is misleading. The secret is not
            > the physical neck but, rather, the slaving or coupling resistors.

            It is misleading - I thought that the unicore was the circuit that
            connects the head to the master/slave bicores. Now that I brought
            that up, do you think that a "unicore" would work as a head circuit?
            Also, what is an IMx? (sorry for my ignorance)

            > Hope that helps,

            Sure did.

            >
            > Related Links:
            >
            > 1. BEAMuseum > BEAMant6
            > http://wiki.solarbotics.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BEAMant6
            >
            > 2. Junkbots > Secret Project: The BEAMAnt
            > http://junkbots.solarbotics.net/_specialproject/index.htm
          • everyonelovesmathias
            A couple of thoughts... In the smithsonian article, Tilden pushes a black button that kills the connection net, and turns the robot into a perfect paranoid .
            Message 5 of 23 , Oct 4, 2004
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              A couple of thoughts...

              In the smithsonian article, Tilden pushes a black button that kills
              the connection net, and turns the robot into a "perfect paranoid".
              How would this be done? Also did Stryder use infrared obstacle
              detectors?

              Thanks,
              Ty
            • J Wolfgang Goerlich
              ... You almost lost me, but I think you are asking about Dave Hrynkiw s answer wherein he wrote that there s a bicore that s alternately toggling the
              Message 6 of 23 , Oct 4, 2004
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                >> Sometimes, this influencing gets out of control. This is why
                >> Roswell and some Stryder clones require a "pace-maker" Bicore.

                > Is this bicore the same as the one that switches between the
                > enables and the head circuit?

                You almost lost me, but I think you are asking about Dave Hrynkiw's
                answer wherein he wrote that "there's a bicore that's alternately
                toggling the walk/head-seek circuit enables." No, this is not the
                same Bicore.

                To imagine Stryder's head, take the Unicore BEAMAnt and chop off the
                photo Bicore. (In the Junkbots BEAMAnt, this is labeled the "High
                frequency opto-receiver suspended Bicore".) Slow the frequency down a
                bit by increasing the capacitors and then drive the motors directly.
                If this is not clear, there is an entire chapter on Bicore Heads in
                the Junkbots book (schematic posted below).

                Now, open the "SunSeeker Adaption" documentation [3]. Look at the
                schematic on page 6. The Head/Body Interface Circuitry consists
                mainly of coupling resistors (R12) and isolation diodes running into
                Enables to cause the walker to turn (the IMx). To the right, there is
                another Bicore that drives the Enables to toggle between light
                seeking and walking.

                Take the Bicore Head schematic and replace the SunSeeker head. Use
                limit switches tied into the tactile sensors (R12 and diodes) to
                direct the walker. As Dave has described it, this was Stryder's head.


                By contrast, the "pace-maker" Bicore does not interface with the
                enables. It is coupled into the Master Bicores on the front legs. The
                pace-maker is akin to a Master-Master architecture. The Master
                controls front legs, and the Slave Bicore continues to drive the rear
                legs.

                > do you think that a "unicore" would work as a head circuit?

                Certainly. I have played around with similar designs on the
                breadboard. One in particular is very much like the Unicore, with
                four eyes (two in back, two in front) as Master Bicores influencing a
                motor Slave Bicore.

                It might be interesting to combine the head and pace-maker into a
                Unicore. Setup a Master-Slave architecture. Drive the head with the
                photo Bicore (Master), and slave in the pace-maker Bicore. You would
                still need limit switches or a slip connection to avoid the wires
                tangling.

                > Also, what is an IMx? (sorry for my ignorance)

                Inverting Multiplexor, acts like an XOR gate. The ScoutWalker II
                documentation has this is labeled as the "Tactile-activated
                Multiplexor."

                In effect, the IMx inverts the signals from the Master Bicore when
                activated. This causes the turning behavior in the four motor walker.
                Solarbotics has a BEP document that describes the circuit in more
                detail.

                Regards,

                J Wolfgang Goerlich


                Related Links:

                1. Junkbots > Secret Project: The BEAMAnt
                http://junkbots.solarbotics.net/_specialproject/index.htm

                2. Junkbots > Figure 10-7: The Bicore headbot schematic
                http://junkbots.solarbotics.net/images/corrections/F10-07.jpg

                3. ScoutWalker 2.2 / SunSeeker Adaption
                http://downloads.solarbotics.com/PDF/SW2_2_to_SSK_Adapter_instructions
                .pdf

                4. Solarbotics > ScoutWalker 2.2 Documentation
                http://downloads.solarbotics.com/PDF/kit8.pdf

                5. Jwgoerlich > Head Boy (Bicore Head w/ Limit Switches)
                http://jwgoerlich.solarbotics.net/robots/head_boy/default.htm

                6. Solarbotics BEP Documentation > The IMx Inverting Multiplexor
                http://downloads.solarbotics.com/PDF/Bicore_Experimenters_PCB/BEP-
                IMx.pdf
              • Dave Hrynkiw
                ... That s also a characteristic of the ...HCT? family. I can t recall FOR SURE, but I believe bicores built on a HCT chip don t cross-talk and phase-lock as
                Message 7 of 23 , Oct 4, 2004
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                  At 02:08 PM 10/4/2004, everyonelovesmathias wrote:
                  > > Sometimes, this influencing gets out of control. This is why Roswell
                  > > and some Stryder clones require a "pace-maker" Bicore. This causes
                  > > the Nervous Net to settle back into the predefined timing.

                  That's also a characteristic of the ...HCT? family. I can't recall FOR
                  SURE, but I believe bicores built on a HCT chip don't "cross-talk" and
                  phase-lock as nearly as easy as the HC series. It's been a while since I
                  built my "Stryder Jr.", which suffered from lack of coordination. After
                  talking to Mark, he pointed out that the HC series will self-synchronize
                  much easier than an HCT chip. Of course, this is referring to multiple
                  bicores on a single IC.

                  >Is this bicore the same as the one that switches between the enables
                  >and the head circuit?

                  Nope. I'm pretty sure Mark used the HC, which self-synchronizes. My Stryder
                  Jr finally used a separate "pacemaker", but I never finished the project to
                  my own satisfaction. I really should pull it off the shelf one day and
                  rebuild the brains...

                  > > Stryder's head is a photo Bicore. When the head reaches a certain
                  > > point, it triggers a sensor that changes the timing within the
                  > > Bicores (via an IMx, I assume). The quote from the article, "The
                  > > secret of the Unicore is the neck", is misleading. The secret is not
                  > > the physical neck but, rather, the slaving or coupling resistors.
                  >
                  >It is misleading - I thought that the unicore was the circuit that
                  >connects the head to the master/slave bicores.

                  Mark developed the Unicore to be a single-chip light-seeking, reversing,
                  motor-driving solution. Because of the low drive current, you must use very
                  efficient motors.


                  > Now that I brought
                  >that up, do you think that a "unicore" would work as a head circuit?
                  >Also, what is an IMx? (sorry for my ignorance)

                  It can be configured as such, sure. But there are many, MANY superior head
                  circuits now.

                  An IMx is an Inverting Multiplexor, which is commonly used to invert the
                  motor drive signals so a BEAM-based walker will reverse. It's not an IDEAL
                  mux, because it really doesn't swap the signals - it just inverts the
                  signal polarity, which has the same effect if the input signal is based on
                  a 50% duty cycle (on as long as it's off). But, it works well most of the time.

                  Regards,
                  Dave
                  ---------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
                  that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
                  2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
                  http://www.solarbotics.com
                • Dave Hrynkiw
                  ... Since the chips are enable-low (they turn on when toggled to ground), all he does is totally kill the bicore process so both the walk and head ICs
                  Message 8 of 23 , Oct 4, 2004
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                    At 06:06 PM 10/4/2004, everyonelovesmathias wrote:
                    >In the smithsonian article, Tilden pushes a black button that kills
                    >the connection net, and turns the robot into a "perfect paranoid".
                    >How would this be done? Also did Stryder use infrared obstacle
                    >detectors?

                    Since the chips are "enable-low" (they turn on when toggled to ground), all
                    he does is totally kill the bicore process so both the "walk" and "head"
                    ICs are on simultaneously.

                    Stryder used a pair of tactile sensors on the front shins, and a pair of IR
                    photodiodes - but nothing IR modulated.

                    Regards,
                    Dave


                    ---------------------------------------------------------------
                    "Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
                    that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
                    2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
                    http://www.solarbotics.com
                  • everyonelovesmathias
                    Thank you all for your help. Just a couple more questions before my experiments begin. Do you understand how this walked. As I said before, I know its gait,
                    Message 9 of 23 , Oct 4, 2004
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                      Thank you all for your help. Just a couple more questions before my
                      experiments begin. Do you understand how this walked. As I said
                      before, I know its gait, but it seems that it would just move in
                      place. And also, would I be able to use the proposed head/pacemaker
                      unicore to drive the main motors unicore? (each out put driving one
                      master/slave)

                      Thanks again. I plan to make the junkbots beamant to understand the
                      "unicore" better first, then I will try to make the Stryder. See you
                      all later,
                      Ty
                    • hetfield9999
                      Hello! I ve never built a Stryder walker yet. But my wild guess of its walking behavior is that, it just slides on a smooth surface. But I think some people
                      Message 10 of 23 , Oct 5, 2004
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                        Hello! I've never built a Stryder walker yet. But my wild guess of
                        its walking behavior is that, it just slides on a smooth surface. But
                        I think some people made it walk much better than sliding. Depending
                        on leg and angle design/s, this bot can also lift its leg a bit
                        (each... perhaps?). Yes, the "M" in BEAM...which also by means of leg
                        and motor orientation. Well, I hope this message makes sense to you
                        bro! Happy experimenting and goodluck! Also, pls. keep us posted in
                        your Stryder's progress. Later... fellow BEAMer! ;)

                        ....Harold.



                        --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "everyonelovesmathias"
                        <everyonelovesmathias@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thank you all for your help. Just a couple more questions before
                        my
                        > experiments begin. Do you understand how this walked. As I said
                        > before, I know its gait, but it seems that it would just move in
                        > place. And also, would I be able to use the proposed
                        head/pacemaker
                        > unicore to drive the main motors unicore? (each out put driving one
                        > master/slave)
                        >
                        > Thanks again. I plan to make the junkbots beamant to understand
                        the
                        > "unicore" better first, then I will try to make the Stryder. See
                        you
                        > all later,
                        > Ty
                      • Alex
                        Hello everyone, Just thought I would make a little contribution to this thread, I am finding it quite interesting actually, anyway I did a search on the
                        Message 11 of 23 , Oct 5, 2004
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                          Hello everyone,
                          Just thought I would make a little contribution to this thread, I am finding
                          it quite interesting actually, anyway I did a search on the internet and I
                          found this on one of Chiu-Yuan Fang's pages.

                          "The legs are splayed out from vertical at approximately 5 degrees at 90
                          degree spacing from each other, surrounding the "head" motor which points
                          up. The rear pair of legs are operating on a totally seperate microcore
                          from the front legs, which (surprisingly) allow it impressive control based
                          on the phasing of the front legs. Hard to believe, but true! Saw it with
                          mine own eyes (ah, the eyes...). The head mechanism is operated in turn
                          with the leg activations, so it stops, looks around, then goes on it's
                          merry old way."

                          Very interesting and a little confussing or was it confusing =S, anyway
                          enjoy.
                          BTW here is the url if you want to read the whole article
                          http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/6897/mail.html
                          its about half way down the page.

                          Hope this helps.
                          Cheers Alex




                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "everyonelovesmathias" <everyonelovesmathias@...>
                          To: <beam@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 1:07 PM
                          Subject: [beam] Re: Stryder electronics


                          >
                          >
                          > Thank you all for your help. Just a couple more questions before my
                          > experiments begin. Do you understand how this walked. As I said
                          > before, I know its gait, but it seems that it would just move in
                          > place. And also, would I be able to use the proposed head/pacemaker
                          > unicore to drive the main motors unicore? (each out put driving one
                          > master/slave)
                          >
                          > Thanks again. I plan to make the junkbots beamant to understand the
                          > "unicore" better first, then I will try to make the Stryder. See you
                          > all later,
                          > Ty
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • J Wolfgang Goerlich
                          Hello Dave, Was your Stryder Jr. problem primarily one of HC versus HCT or one of motor noise? I had the impression upon reading the Solarbotics gallery that
                          Message 12 of 23 , Oct 5, 2004
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                            Hello Dave,

                            Was your "Stryder Jr." problem primarily one of HC versus HCT or one
                            of motor noise? I had the impression upon reading the Solarbotics
                            gallery that it was motor noise. You wrote that the "inherent noise
                            of a pair of master/slave bicores may be too much for a walking gait
                            to converge."

                            John deVries posted a Hogfather-esque message a while back about
                            Roswell. Heck if I can find it now, though. He pointed out that the
                            Stryder-style Nervous Net did not scale to the larger platform. The
                            motor load incurred from the higher weight prevented the convergence.
                            I had the idea, again my impression, that the 'mechanical pull out of
                            sync' was too much for the 'HC single-chip Bicores sync' to
                            compensate for.

                            Does ScoutWalker II use a resistor between the Master Bicores (R8) to
                            achieve synchronization? If so, would this be a solution for Stryder
                            clone?

                            Regards,

                            J Wolfgang Goerlich

                            I wrote:
                            > Sometimes, this influencing gets out of control. This is why
                            > Roswell and some Stryder clones require a "pace-maker" Bicore.
                            > This causes the Nervous Net to settle back into the predefined
                            > timing.

                            Dave replied:
                            > It's been a while since I built my "Stryder Jr.", which suffered
                            > from lack of coordination. After talking to Mark, he pointed out
                            > that the HC series will self-synchronize much easier than an HCT
                            > chip.



                            "Stryder Jr" from the Solarbotics Gallery, Circa 2001.

                            Stryder Jr. (1998-9) I (Dave Hrynkiw) built Stryder Jr. to see how
                            reproducible Mark's Stryder Bicore arrangement was. Surprisingly, I
                            struggled over a period of months to get a reliable walking gait out
                            of the basic platform. After much geometry adjusting, electronics
                            swapping and swearing, Mr. Tilden was nice enough to point out that
                            the inherent noise of a pair of master/slave bicores may be too much
                            for a walking gait to converge. The answer to this was to install a
                            simple 2 Nv suspended bicore oscillator to act as a pace-maker for
                            the whole system. With that installed, Stryder Jr. is a much better
                            behaved little robot.

                            Oh, and the planned head (like the original) has been scrapped. It
                            was that, or resign myself to the fact that this robot would never be
                            finished!

                            As built, it uses 4 modified Canon DG12 gearhead motors, with
                            aluminum adapter blocks machined to interface an RPM-type Namiki
                            pager motor to the 1:132 gear reduction units. The brains are cut
                            from a set of Mark Tilden SMT Gold Fabricated PCB's (no, these aren't
                            for sale - they were a gift!), using a suspended bicore for each of
                            the front legs, which have slave bicores for the rear legs. The
                            master suspended bicores are "paced" by a 2-neuron oscillator that
                            sets the master frequency. Power is provided by a (now-dead) set of
                            NiMH rechargables cushioned by a pair of 0.33F 2.5V AL gold
                            capacitors wired in series. Those NiMH batteries do crap out if
                            they're not charged properly! Overall dimensions are 8cm x 8cm x 8cm.
                            Once rebuilt with good batteries, video will be put online.
                          • Dave Hrynkiw
                            ... It does not slide; it actually has a very nice, defined stride. Because of the very shallow angle of attack the motors have, it appears to slide, but yes,
                            Message 13 of 23 , Oct 5, 2004
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                              At 02:10 AM 10/5/2004, hetfield9999 wrote:
                              >Hello! I've never built a Stryder walker yet. But my wild guess of
                              >its walking behavior is that, it just slides on a smooth surface. But
                              >I think some people made it walk much better than sliding. Depending
                              >on leg and angle design/s, this bot can also lift its leg a bit
                              >(each... perhaps?).

                              It does not slide; it actually has a very nice, defined stride. Because of
                              the very shallow angle of attack the motors have, it appears to slide, but
                              yes, only on a smooth surface!

                              Regards,
                              Dave
                              ---------------------------------------------------------------
                              "Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
                              that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
                              2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
                              http://www.solarbotics.com
                            • Dave Hrynkiw
                              ... Not having the robot in front of me (it s in storage...somewhere...), I recall it being HCT. Mark and I originally thought it was motor noise until I
                              Message 14 of 23 , Oct 5, 2004
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                                At 10:23 AM 10/5/2004, J Wolfgang Goerlich wrote:
                                >Was your "Stryder Jr." problem primarily one of HC versus HCT or one
                                >of motor noise? I had the impression upon reading the Solarbotics
                                >gallery that it was motor noise. You wrote that the "inherent noise
                                >of a pair of master/slave bicores may be too much for a walking gait
                                >to converge."

                                Not having the robot in front of me (it's in storage...somewhere...), I
                                recall it being HCT. Mark and I originally thought it was motor noise until
                                I consulted with Mark at the following LANL workshop, where he pointed out
                                the self-synchronizing ability of the HC, and my boards were actually using
                                HCT. Using the "pacemaker" helped out a lot, but I think I could have done
                                just as well or better with HC chips, and/or a "CC" resistor (see below).


                                >The
                                >motor load incurred from the higher weight prevented the convergence.

                                I'm not convinced of that. I've seen video of Roswell working, and think
                                it's major problems were because of excessively powerful motors which made
                                it that much more difficult to control without damaging itself.

                                >I had the idea, again my impression, that the 'mechanical pull out of
                                >sync' was too much for the 'HC single-chip Bicores sync' to
                                >compensate for.
                                >
                                >Does ScoutWalker II use a resistor between the Master Bicores (R8) to
                                >achieve synchronization? If so, would this be a solution for Stryder
                                >clone?

                                The SWII does use a "CC" (corpus colosum) resistor to tie the left and
                                right halfs of the bicore "brain" together. This has worked out pretty
                                well, and was the solution I was working towards on Stryder Jr. before I
                                got onto other projects.

                                Regards,
                                Dave
                                ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
                                that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
                                2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
                                http://www.solarbotics.com
                              • hetfield9999
                                Thanks a lot Dave! ...for some infos on Stryder stuff. I knew that Stryder doesn t slide purely. It just lifts its legs a little clearance from the ground or
                                Message 15 of 23 , Oct 5, 2004
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                                  Thanks a lot Dave! ...for some infos on Stryder stuff. I knew that
                                  Stryder doesn't slide purely. It just lifts its legs a little
                                  clearance from the ground or surface that can't be seen on a
                                  distance. Well, maybe I could build a Stryder bot too sometime, and
                                  post it on my site. Also, I'll try to make it as good as possible
                                  using my wild imaginations and using the microcore technology.
                                  Hmmm....that makes sense. But anyway, I'm experimenting with Black
                                  Vermin's different gaits and its sensors to be more accurate,
                                  effective and useful. Sometimes, it gets stuck somewhere until its
                                  batteries went out. I hate it when that happens! So, I'm still
                                  observing its behavior as it tries to adapt to its environment, just
                                  like our own children does. Wish me luck! :-) Cheers!

                                  ....Harold.



                                  --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, Dave Hrynkiw <dave@s...> wrote:
                                  > At 10:23 AM 10/5/2004, J Wolfgang Goerlich wrote:
                                  > >Was your "Stryder Jr." problem primarily one of HC versus HCT or
                                  one
                                  > >of motor noise? I had the impression upon reading the Solarbotics
                                  > >gallery that it was motor noise. You wrote that the "inherent noise
                                  > >of a pair of master/slave bicores may be too much for a walking
                                  gait
                                  > >to converge."
                                  >
                                  > Not having the robot in front of me (it's in
                                  storage...somewhere...), I
                                  > recall it being HCT. Mark and I originally thought it was motor
                                  noise until
                                  > I consulted with Mark at the following LANL workshop, where he
                                  pointed out
                                  > the self-synchronizing ability of the HC, and my boards were
                                  actually using
                                  > HCT. Using the "pacemaker" helped out a lot, but I think I could
                                  have done
                                  > just as well or better with HC chips, and/or a "CC" resistor (see
                                  below).
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >The
                                  > >motor load incurred from the higher weight prevented the
                                  convergence.
                                  >
                                  > I'm not convinced of that. I've seen video of Roswell working, and
                                  think
                                  > it's major problems were because of excessively powerful motors
                                  which made
                                  > it that much more difficult to control without damaging itself.
                                  >
                                  > >I had the idea, again my impression, that the 'mechanical pull out
                                  of
                                  > >sync' was too much for the 'HC single-chip Bicores sync' to
                                  > >compensate for.
                                  > >
                                  > >Does ScoutWalker II use a resistor between the Master Bicores (R8)
                                  to
                                  > >achieve synchronization? If so, would this be a solution for
                                  Stryder
                                  > >clone?
                                  >
                                  > The SWII does use a "CC" (corpus colosum) resistor to tie the left
                                  and
                                  > right halfs of the bicore "brain" together. This has worked out
                                  pretty
                                  > well, and was the solution I was working towards on Stryder Jr.
                                  before I
                                  > got onto other projects.
                                  >
                                  > Regards,
                                  > Dave
                                  > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > "Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
                                  > that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
                                  > 2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
                                  > http://www.solarbotics.com
                                • Bill Noble
                                  ... Whats an eosapien? BillN _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Oct 6, 2004
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                                    >http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/dfx/archives/0201/0201rob.asp

                                    Whats an eosapien?

                                    BillN

                                    _________________________________________________________________
                                    Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
                                    http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
                                  • everyonelovesmathias
                                    Have you ever noticed that antenna looking wire that sticks up in some some pictures of Stryder? I never thought of it until now... but could that be sending
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Oct 6, 2004
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                                      Have you ever noticed that antenna looking wire that sticks up in some
                                      some pictures of Stryder? I never thought of it until now... but
                                      could that be sending the signals to the motor drivers to avoid the
                                      twisting of wires?

                                      How would this be done in a circuit? Also, does Stryder have a single
                                      tactile sensor on his head?
                                    • Dave Hrynkiw
                                      ... Nope, that s a grabbing wire - nothing electronic about it. Mark s design has plenty of bend allowance in the wire, so there s no threat of twisting the
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Oct 6, 2004
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                                        At 02:42 PM 10/6/2004, everyonelovesmathias wrote:
                                        >Have you ever noticed that antenna looking wire that sticks up in some
                                        >some pictures of Stryder? I never thought of it until now... but
                                        >could that be sending the signals to the motor drivers to avoid the
                                        >twisting of wires?

                                        Nope, that's a grabbing wire - nothing electronic about it. Mark's design
                                        has plenty of bend allowance in the wire, so there's no threat of twisting
                                        the wires to breakage.

                                        >How would this be done in a circuit? Also, does Stryder have a single
                                        >tactile sensor on his head?

                                        The only sensors in the head are the photodiodes, and the "neck rod" for
                                        indicating extreme head swing.

                                        Regards,
                                        Dave
                                        ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                        "Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
                                        that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
                                        2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
                                        http://www.solarbotics.com
                                      • everyonelovesmathias
                                        I was just wondering, does the CC resister take the place of the pace- maker? If not, where is the pace maker in the Scoutwalker II schematic? Where WOULD it
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Oct 6, 2004
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                                          I was just wondering, does the CC resister take the place of the pace-
                                          maker? If not, where is the pace maker in the Scoutwalker II
                                          schematic? Where WOULD it be if it had one? And which works better,
                                          the CC resistor or the pace-maker.

                                          What is meant by it gets too out of control? Does the gait get
                                          inefficient due to the signal bouncing back and forth too wildly?

                                          And what should be used, a 74HC, HCT, or AC 240?

                                          Thanks,
                                          Ty
                                        • J Wolfgang Goerlich
                                          ... Yes. ... It would be roughly where the CC resistor (R8) is. This pace-maker Bicore would connect up to both Master Bicores via coupling resistors. ... The
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Oct 6, 2004
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                                            > Does the CC resister take the place of the pace-maker?

                                            Yes.

                                            > If not, where is the pace maker in the Scoutwalker II
                                            > schematic? Where WOULD it be if it had one?

                                            It would be roughly where the CC resistor (R8) is. This pace-maker
                                            Bicore would connect up to both Master Bicores via coupling resistors.

                                            > And which works better, the CC resistor or the pace-maker.

                                            The CC resistor, judging strictly on part count and the performance
                                            demonstrated by the ScoutWalker II.

                                            > What is meant by it gets too out of control? Does the gait get
                                            > inefficient due to the signal bouncing back and forth too wildly?

                                            The legs get out of sync and the walker does not move forward. Dave
                                            Hrynkiw's earlier response has convinced me that I overestimated this
                                            effect.

                                            > And what should be used, a 74HC, HCT, or AC 240?

                                            If you are pursuing the self-syncing model, use a single 74HC240 to
                                            build both Master Bicores. If you are driving the motors directly
                                            from the '240 chip (as seen in ScoutWalker II and the Beam-online
                                            Stryder), then use the 74AC240. This chip can source more current
                                            than the HC.

                                            Which reminds me, anyone know what motor driver Tilden used in the
                                            original Stryder?

                                            J Wolfgang Goerlich
                                          • Dave Hrynkiw
                                            ... I m fairly certain they re the HC variety of the SMT SOIC wide-pack 240. I have a great overhead shot of the Head electronics of the Stryder, but I spent
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Oct 6, 2004
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                                              At 09:48 PM 10/6/2004, J Wolfgang Goerlich wrote:

                                              >Which reminds me, anyone know what motor driver Tilden used in the
                                              >original Stryder?

                                              I'm fairly certain they're the HC variety of the SMT SOIC wide-pack '240. I
                                              have a great overhead shot of the Head electronics of the Stryder, but I
                                              spent better part of an hour today searching for it. When it surfaces, I'll
                                              scan and post it.

                                              Regards,
                                              Dave

                                              ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                              "Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
                                              that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
                                              2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
                                              http://www.solarbotics.com
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