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Re: Turbot 2.0 Research Project

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  • J. Wolfgang Goerlich
    Thank you very much, Dave. Please thank Mark Tilden for me, too. Alright, let us clear the slate. Tilden says that Turbot 2.0 had FLEDs that influenced a
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 2, 2004
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      Thank you very much, Dave. Please thank Mark Tilden for me, too.

      Alright, let us clear the slate. Tilden says that Turbot 2.0 had FLEDs that
      influenced a Bicore. Other than that, the details are fuzzy. Having made a
      decade's worth of progress, we clearly are in the position to build the
      modern equivalent of T2.

      I wonder what is the best way to create a phototropic Bicore using FLEDs as
      sensors. The FLEDs must blink. Also, the frequency must increase with
      brightness (as the PD suspended Bicore does). Anyone have some ideas?

      J Wolfgang Goerlich

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    • wilf_nv
      ... Sounds more like a dual FLED SE or FLED Popper. ... The FLEDs can be used to nudge a bicore ... Must blink? You mean required to duplicate T2 s cool
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 2, 2004
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        --- In beam@yahoogroups.com, "J. Wolfgang Goerlich" <jwgoerlich@h...>
        wrote:

        > Tilden says that Turbot 2.0 had FLEDs that influenced a Bicore.

        Actually he said:

        > As for Turbot 2, I recall a custom Solarengine
        > using a blinking LED that also acted as a
        > low-quality photodetector (Active Surplus special).
        > T2 used this in one of the first ever 2node Popper Nets.
        > The LED eyes blinked at whatever it was they "saw"
        > providing a cool feedback cue.
        >
        >Mark W. Tilden

        Sounds more like a dual FLED SE or FLED Popper.

        Next Wolf penned:

        > I wonder what is the best way to create a phototropic
        > Bicore using FLEDs as sensors.

        The FLEDs can be used to nudge a bicore

        Next:

        > The FLEDs must blink.

        Must blink? You mean required to duplicate T2's cool feedback cue?

        Next:

        > Also, the frequency must increase with brightness (as the PD
        suspended Bicore does).

        Frequency must increase? Is this required or inevitable?

        Next:

        > Anyone have some ideas?

        I do but which idea are you looking for?

        1) A modern T2 - appearance wise and functionally (timing and
        waveforms)identical to the original but using up to date technology.

        or

        2) The Extreme T2 (XT2) - redesigned from the ground up, capable and
        smart.

        In either case, an outline or, better yet, a detailed description of
        the desired features and behavior is required.

        wilf
      • Dalrymple Family
        Hello all, just in respnse to your question I was wondering if you could use the fred photovore cuircuit in a turbot. sorry if this doesnt help. Alex ... From:
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 2, 2004
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          Hello all,
          just in respnse to your question I was wondering if you could use the fred photovore cuircuit in a turbot.
          sorry if this doesnt help.
          Alex
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 6:49 AM
          Subject: [beam] Re: Turbot 2.0 Research Project

          Thank you very much, Dave. Please thank Mark Tilden for me, too.

          Alright, let us clear the slate. Tilden says that Turbot 2.0 had FLEDs that
          influenced a Bicore. Other than that, the details are fuzzy. Having made a
          decade's worth of progress, we clearly are in the position to build the
          modern equivalent of T2.

          I wonder what is the best way to create a phototropic Bicore using FLEDs as
          sensors. The FLEDs must blink. Also, the frequency must increase with
          brightness (as the PD suspended Bicore does). Anyone have some ideas?

          J Wolfgang Goerlich

          _________________________________________________________________
          Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
          hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

        • J Wolfgang Goerlich
          Hello Wilf, Sounds more like a dual FLED SE or FLED Popper. Yes, that is one interpretation. However, it would conflict with what he has written and said in
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 2, 2004
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            Hello Wilf,

            "Sounds more like a dual FLED SE or FLED Popper."

            Yes, that is one interpretation. However, it would conflict with what
            he has written and said in the past. In Living Machines, Tilden
            explicitly states that T2 has a two-neuron net. In the Solarbotics
            interview, he seems to suggest that it has two Nus. Two
            Nus "integrating" with a sensor Bicore reminds me of a BEAMant
            popper. But, then, I have not had a good track record with this
            project thus far. ;-)

            "I do but which idea are you looking for?"

            My direct answer is: both! My long-term goal is to have a mastery of
            BEAM robotics. This means, I think, being able to duplicate and
            understand the best robots in this field.

            My next project, after the protracted Junkbots project, is a Living
            Machines project. I plan to build replicas of Turbot 2.0, Lobster and
            Walkman. I view these as a starting point. Once I have the replicas
            working, I will use these designs as a basis for new robots.
            Hopefully, making my own contribution.

            The Turbot 2.0 research project consists largely of notes that I have
            been gathering on the robot. I was not planning on releasing it until
            I had a working design. I released it early simply because of the
            interest in Turbots. I am glad that I did so, as I have learned a lot.

            "... a detailed description of the desired features and behavior is
            required."

            Turbot 2.0 is said to have the following behaviors:
            - FLED indicators
            - Light seeking (exhibits aggressive phototropism)
            - Basking (stays in the stronger light pool)
            - No motion during the SE firing (deciding not to move)
            - Single motor movement
            - Dual motor movement

            "1) A modern T2 - appearance wise and functionally (timing and
            waveforms) identical to the original but using up to date technology."

            Yes. Timing and waveforms we can only guess at, I think. I have a
            preliminary and erroneous circuit schematic up on the research page.
            For the next draft, I plan to remove the mercury switch and IMx, and
            add the FLEDs. This is the reason I simply asked about FLEDs
            influencing a Bicore.

            http://jwgoerlich.solarbotics.net/articles/t2/circuit2.htm

            "2) The Extreme T2 (XT2) - redesigned from the ground up, capable and
            smart."

            Yes, again! This is the next evolutionary step. I see three areas for
            immediate improvement. One, add the tilt switch and IMx back in. Two,
            substitute the influencing FLEDs with sensing PDs. Three, replace the
            two-transistor latch with one of your Power Smart motor drivers.

            From your questions, I take it that you have some extreme BEAM tech
            design in mind. I am picturing a part count of two or three ... uA
            power usage ... accurate light seeking combined with a dose of chaos.
            You know, the typical Wilf Rigter design. :-)

            So, what do you have in mind?

            J Wolfgang Goerlich
          • J Wolfgang Goerlich
            Hello Alex, ... Yes, you can. My son and I have done so a few times. The best results was a robot called Flip Boy. The problem with using Photopopper
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 2, 2004
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              Hello Alex,

              > just in respnse to your question I was wondering if you could use
              > the fred photovore cuircuit in a turbot.

              Yes, you can. My son and I have done so a few times. The best results
              was a robot called "Flip Boy."

              The problem with using Photopopper circuits -- Fred, Miller Popper,
              and so on -- in Turbots is that the resulting robot is NOT
              phototropic.

              On a 2-dimensional level, a Turbot will be phototropic when upright
              and photophobic when upside down. Hence, many successful Turbot
              circuits use what I call a "this side up" circuit to detect which
              side they are on and to move accordingly. For a good example on how
              this works, see Solarbotics BEP tutorial.

              On a 3-dimensional level, a Turbot will be phototropic when it
              tumbles towards the light on all angles. This is tricky, and I am
              still working on all the details. Basically, it involves two light
              seeking "head" circuits operating the motors, with loose coupling
              between the circuits to allow for synchronizing

              Of course, this only takes into account two-motor Turbots. Things get
              really strange when you start to look at getting single and three-
              motor Turbots to seek light.

              J Wolfgang Goerlich


              Related Links:

              1. Flip Boy
              http://jwgoerlich.solarbotics.net/robots/flip_boy/default.htm

              2. Solarbotics BEP Turbot
              http://www.solarbotics.com/resources/static/bep/bep5_turbot.php
            • J Wolfgang Goerlich
              Hello Wilf et al, One additional thought: if the Bicore has balanced duty cycle, then both motors fire near simultaneously. T2 moves forward. Otherwise, one
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 2, 2004
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                Hello Wilf et al,

                One additional thought: if the Bicore has balanced duty cycle, then
                both motors fire near simultaneously. T2 moves forward. Otherwise,
                one motor may move, or no motors may move. If only one motor moves,
                then T2 turns.

                I think this explains T2's light seeking. It turns until facing a
                bright enough light. Then, it moves more or less forward towards the
                light. Once in the light, it basks. When the light source shifts, it
                has charged up higher levels of voltages, letting the first pop be
                the strongest.

                J Wolfgang Goerlich

                > Turbot 2.0 is said to have the following behaviors:
                > - FLED indicators
                > - Light seeking (exhibits aggressive phototropism)
                > - Basking (stays in the stronger light pool)
                > - No motion during the SE firing (deciding not to move)
                > - Single motor movement
                > - Dual motor movement
              • Wilf Rigter
                I had another good look at the Turbot 2 pictures Dave scanned and posted as well as your enhanced part layout picture and my interpretation of part h is not
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 2, 2004
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                  I had another good look at the Turbot 2 pictures Dave scanned and posted as well as your "enhanced" part layout picture and my interpretation of part h is not a 74HC240 chip but a quad DPST DIP switch.  Part the DIP switch is probably a manual "mux" used to reverse the motor connections.  No 240, no bicore!
                   
                  wilf
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 1:49 PM
                  Subject: [beam] Re: Turbot 2.0 Research Project

                  Thank you very much, Dave. Please thank Mark Tilden for me, too.

                  Alright, let us clear the slate. Tilden says that Turbot 2.0 had FLEDs that
                  influenced a Bicore. Other than that, the details are fuzzy. Having made a
                  decade's worth of progress, we clearly are in the position to build the
                  modern equivalent of T2.

                  I wonder what is the best way to create a phototropic Bicore using FLEDs as
                  sensors. The FLEDs must blink. Also, the frequency must increase with
                  brightness (as the PD suspended Bicore does). Anyone have some ideas?

                  J Wolfgang Goerlich

                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
                  hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

                • Dalrymple Family
                  Thanks for the reply, For a Right side up cuircuit would a DPDT tilt switch that switches the left sensor to make it right, ect. work well. I belive that
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 3, 2004
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                    Thanks for the reply,
                    For a "Right side up" cuircuit would a DPDT tilt switch that switches the left sensor to make it right, ect.
                    work well. I belive that this sort of sensor has been used before on turbots?
                    anyway thanks for all the help.
                    Cheers Alex
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 10:31 AM
                    Subject: [beam] Fred Turbot (was: Research Project)

                    Hello Alex,

                    > just in respnse to your question I was wondering if you could use
                    > the fred photovore cuircuit in a turbot.

                    Yes, you can. My son and I have done so a few times. The best results
                    was a robot called "Flip Boy."

                    The problem with using Photopopper circuits -- Fred, Miller Popper,
                    and so on -- in Turbots is that the resulting robot is NOT
                    phototropic.

                    On a 2-dimensional level, a Turbot will be phototropic when upright
                    and photophobic when upside down. Hence, many successful Turbot
                    circuits use what I call a "this side up" circuit to detect which
                    side they are on and to move accordingly. For a good example on how
                    this works, see Solarbotics BEP tutorial.

                    On a 3-dimensional level, a Turbot will be phototropic when it
                    tumbles towards the light on all angles. This is tricky, and I am
                    still working on all the details. Basically, it involves two light
                    seeking "head" circuits operating the motors, with loose coupling
                    between the circuits to allow for synchronizing

                    Of course, this only takes into account two-motor Turbots. Things get
                    really strange when you start to look at getting single and three-
                    motor Turbots to seek light.

                    J Wolfgang Goerlich


                    Related Links:

                    1. Flip Boy
                    http://jwgoerlich.solarbotics.net/robots/flip_boy/default.htm

                    2. Solarbotics BEP Turbot
                    http://www.solarbotics.com/resources/static/bep/bep5_turbot.php


                  • J Wolfgang Goerlich
                    ... How does the old saw go, my mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts! Yes, Dave s T2 photographs are a tremendous help. I found it difficult to
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 3, 2004
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                      Wilf wrote:
                      > No 240, no bicore!

                      How does the old saw go, "my mind is made up. Do not confuse me with
                      the facts!"

                      Yes, Dave's T2 photographs are a tremendous help. I found it
                      difficult to determine what was what, and what goes where based
                      solely on three images. Now, thanks to you, Dave, and Mark Tilden, we
                      are making definite progress.

                      Moving forward, T2's circuit consists of a primary power SE (PPSE)
                      driving two sensor Photopopper SEs (SPSE). The PPSE is a Type 2 time
                      triggering engine. In the original T2, this was the HBS. The dual
                      SPSEs use FLEDs for light seeking and feature two-transistor latches,
                      like the FLED and FRED. Unlike those, however, the FLEDs actually
                      blink.

                      During the firing half of the PPSE cycle, there are four possible
                      outcomes:

                      - Left SPSE fires (turning)
                      - Right SPSE fires (turning)
                      - Both SPSEs fire (phototaxis)
                      - Neither SPSE fire (basking)

                      This, then, is the starting point for a modern T2 replica. As you put
                      it, "appearance wise and functionally identical to the original but
                      using up to date technology."

                      J Wolfgang Goerlich

                      Post Script: I keep forgetting to thank you for pointing out the non-
                      muxing multiplexor. I have fixed the diagram and description to show
                      the '241 Mux and the ;240 IMx. Much obliged, Wilf.
                    • J Wolfgang Goerlich
                      Hello Alex, ... That is certainly one solution. The DPDT switch setup must be such that the sensors are always connected. Otherwise, the robot will start to
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 3, 2004
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                        Hello Alex,

                        > For a "Right side up" cuircuit would a DPDT tilt switch that
                        > switches the left sensor to make it right, ect. work well.

                        That is certainly one solution. The DPDT switch setup must be such
                        that the sensors are always connected. Otherwise, the robot will
                        start to tumble, get mid-way between one side and another, and lose
                        track of its sensors.

                        J Wolfgang Goerlich
                      • Duncan Domingue
                        ... The problem is that DPDT are electrically noisy, wear out over time, are power hogs, and fairly large. What would be more electrically sound would be to
                        Message 11 of 18 , Sep 3, 2004
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                          >> For a "Right side up" cuircuit would a DPDT tilt switch that
                          >> switches the left sensor to make it right, ect. work well.

                          The problem is that DPDT are electrically noisy, wear out over time, are
                          power hogs, and fairly large. What would be more electrically sound
                          would be to measure the light on the sensors. I'm not sure how you are
                          building yours, but I envision two light detecting cells on each side of
                          the solar cell on each side of the turbot, totalling four light
                          detecting cells. If the turbot falls flat after each pop of the solar
                          engine (very bad in low light), then you can assume that the side of the
                          turbot on the ground is receiving no light at all. Therefore, it would
                          make sense to use the other sensors to measure the amount of light. This
                          could be achieved by using a comparator to measure the total light of
                          each side and enable another comparator connected to either top or
                          bottom sensors.

                          Note: This won't work on most turbots as they *don't* fall after each
                          pop. A mercury tilt sensor would be smaller, but after hearing how
                          turbots rip each other apart, mercury may not be something you want on
                          your kitchen floor.
                        • J Wolfgang Goerlich
                          Hello Duncan Domingue, Good to hear from you. Have you made any progress on your PIC-BEAM crab? ... Not only will this work for Turbots that fall flat after
                          Message 12 of 18 , Sep 3, 2004
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                            Hello Duncan Domingue,

                            Good to hear from you. Have you made any progress on your PIC-BEAM
                            crab?

                            > I'm not sure how you are building yours, but I envision two light
                            > detecting cells on each side of the solar cell on each side of the
                            > turbot, totalling four light detecting cells.

                            Not only will this work for Turbots that fall flat after each pop, it
                            will also work all other Turbots, too. Suppose the Turbot makes it
                            half way up, so that the body is perpendicular to the ground. There
                            is not a clear side up. However, one side will be brighter than the
                            other, even if ever so slightly brighter. Thus, the Turbot will
                            continue tumbling towards the light (even if that means reversing
                            midway).

                            > A mercury tilt sensor would be smaller, but after hearing how
                            > turbots rip each other apart, mercury may not be something you want
                            > on your kitchen floor.

                            I have purchased some ball tilt sensors for just this reason. I have
                            not had the time to experiment with these, unfortunately.

                            http://www.budgetrobotics.com/shop/index.php?shop=1&cat=32

                            That aside, it should be possible to build a fairly tough Turbot.
                            Brett's brass T-o2 looks like a good step that goal.

                            J Wolfgang Goerlich
                          • Duncan Domingue
                            ... I ve been working on a lot of stuff, so building robots has been second on the list. But learning about PICs was great! They are so useful! If servos
                            Message 13 of 18 , Sep 4, 2004
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                              >>Hello Duncan Domingue,
                              >>
                              >>Good to hear from you. Have you made any progress on your PIC-BEAM
                              >>crab?

                              I've been working on a lot of stuff, so building robots has been second
                              on the list. But learning about PICs was great! They are so useful! If
                              servos weren't so expensive, I'd build more robots. I am planning on
                              building a two legged four motor robot that drags its back half around
                              like the one motor walker. Then, when I save up some more cash, I'll
                              build the second half. :)
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