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[beam] Re: humanoid beam robot

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  • Martin Jay McKee
    ... As Bruce said it s probably more a matter of what someone is able to complete as opposed to what the technology is actually capable of. If you want a
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 30, 2003
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      > Jonathan Challinger wrote:
      >
      > why wouldn't it be possible to make a humanoid
      > walker with beam tech?

      As Bruce said it's probably more a matter of what someone is able to
      complete as opposed to what the technology is actually capable of. If you
      want a humanoid that is a good approximation of all the human gaits, for
      instance, you'll have to conquer the problem of dynamic stability. I'm sure
      that it's possible to interface accelerometers to BEAM to do that, though I
      haven't seen it done anywhere. Once you get past that obstacle, and I
      certianly think it's possible, you still have to build a system to control
      many different motors. All in all I'd say it's just a problem of degrees.
      If you define possible as 'I can design and build it in 12 hours' I'd say a
      humanoid isn't possible. If, however, you were willing to spend a number of
      months (or years) and build it one step at a time I don't see any reason to
      think that it wasn't possible.

      Martin Jay McKee
    • frankendaddy
      Long ago, I spoke with Mr. Tilden on the phone and he made mention of a BEAM Humanoid that he was working on. I think that the simian robot that Hasbro is
      Message 2 of 10 , May 1, 2003
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        Long ago, I spoke with Mr. Tilden on the phone and he made mention of
        a "BEAM Humanoid" that he was working on. I think that the simian
        robot that Hasbro is making is the very thingy that he was talking
        about.

        F-diddy
      • John A. deVries II
        ... Ain t it always the case (sorry, just being heretical here). ... Um, do you have a hard reference for this? Hasbro seems to be tied up with
        Message 3 of 10 , May 1, 2003
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          At 08:38 AM 5/1/2003, Franknendaddy wrote:
          >Long ago,

          Ain't it always the case (sorry, just being heretical here).

          >I think that the simian robot that Hasbro is making is the very thingy
          >that he was talking about.

          Um, do you have a hard reference for this? Hasbro seems to be tied up with
          Transformers(TM) this year. WowWee, on the other hand, has a "coming soon"
          advertisement

          http://www.wowwee.com/catalog/cat_remote_Bioneticape.html

          for something that looks like vaguely a typical toy-manufacturer-least-cost
          version of the neat thing referenced in the AllNerdReview page. Makes you
          wonder what the prototype BIOBugs looked like.

          In any case, the pendulum bit -

          >Tilden mentioned that his movement was based on something to do with a
          >pendulum...

          is old technology. It has even been done with LEGO:

          http://perso.wanadoo.fr/bzarokian/lego/


          Z

          P.S. What an incredible joke also found in the AllNerdReview article:

          >During the tour he gave us, he frequently made reference to his work for
          >NASA. He essentially revealed that he helped design, or designed in full,
          >I can't remember, the Mars rover thingie.

          Yeah, right, pull the other one it has bells on. Just to begin with, it was
          JPL that designed the thing, not "NASA".
        • J Wolfgang Goerlich
          ... Having yet to be able to read or see anything on Tilden s designs, my understanding is incomplete. However, I would venture that the technology is
          Message 4 of 10 , May 2, 2003
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            Franknendaddy wrote:
            >> Tilden mentioned that his movement was based on something to do
            >> with a pendulum...

            Hogfather heretically replied:
            > is old technology. It has even been done with LEGO:

            Having yet to be able to read or see anything on Tilden's designs, my
            understanding is incomplete. However, I would venture that the
            technology is significantly older than many people think.

            In "Living Machines" [1], Tilden references "Passive Dynamic Walking"
            [2] at the second to last page. This was some fascinating work done
            by McGeer (sorry, no link). Appropriately enough, you can trace
            McGreer's work back to two toy patents [3,4].

            Given that Tilden's humanoid walker has been in the past 10 or so
            years, and given that Lego's originally came out in 1949, and given
            that the patents go back to 1912 and 1888, I think that we can safely
            establish prior art.

            J Wolfgang Goerlich


            Related Links:

            1. Brosl Hasslacher and Mark Tilden, "Living Machines", 1995
            http://downloads.solarbotics.net/pdf/living_machines.pdf

            2. T. McGeer, "Passive dynamic walking", 1990

            3. George Fallis, "Walking Toy", Letters Patent 376,588, 1888
            http://tam.cornell.edu/~ruina/hplab/downloads/Walking_Patents/Patent1.
            pdf

            4. Balduin Bechstein, "Improvements in and relating to Toys", U.S.
            Patent 7453, 1912
            http://tam.cornell.edu/~ruina/hplab/downloads/Walking_Patents/Patent2.
            pdf
          • J Wolfgang Goerlich
            ... I remember seeing that Bionetic Ape when looking for the RoboSapien. I have not been able to bring up the Wowwee page since you posted (router down in
            Message 5 of 10 , May 2, 2003
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              John A. deVries II wrote:
              > WowWee, on the other hand, has a "coming soon" advertisement (...)
              > for something that looks like vaguely a typical toy-manufacturer-
              > least-cost version of the neat thing referenced in the
              > AllNerdReview page.

              I remember seeing that Bionetic Ape when looking for the RoboSapien.
              I have not been able to bring up the Wowwee page since you posted
              (router down in Ottawa).

              At the time, I did not connect it with the RoboSapien. I had two
              reasons for this. First, in my mind it did not bear much physical
              resemblance. Second, Wowwee listed the Ape under remote controlled
              toys. Electronically, I would think that is different from the
              BioBugs with their "Bicore on a blob."

              On the other hand, I have been unable to find any information out
              about the "RoboSapien" outside of the AllNerdReview article. I would
              not be surprised if Wowwee stripped the toy down and repackaged it.

              J Wolfgang Goerlich
            • Jonathan Challinger
              wow, futuristic-looking
              Message 6 of 10 , May 2, 2003
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                wow, futuristic-looking

                keenerd@... wrote:
                That Wowee ape looks like it walks on slightly different principles.  
                The closest robot I know of is the 'Meka Toro'.  The site had a good
                description of how it worked, but it seems to be gone.  Maybe the
                Internet Archive has a copy.  Failing that, I included a picture of it.
                
                Basically, it wobbles from side to side, using the wobble to pick up the
                legs for the return stroke.   Pretty fast, too.
                
                http://t4l.freeservers.com/MEKATORO.HTM
                
                -Martin
                
                THE resource for beginners
                http://beamlinks.botic.com
                http://beamlinks.solarbotics.net
                "The best of everyone's BEAM"
                
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              • keenerd@juno.com
                That Wowee ape looks like it walks on slightly different principles. The closest robot I know of is the Meka Toro . The site had a good description of how it
                Message 7 of 10 , May 2, 2003
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                  That Wowee ape looks like it walks on slightly different principles.
                  The closest robot I know of is the 'Meka Toro'. The site had a good
                  description of how it worked, but it seems to be gone. Maybe the
                  Internet Archive has a copy. Failing that, I included a picture of it.

                  Basically, it wobbles from side to side, using the wobble to pick up the
                  legs for the return stroke. Pretty fast, too.

                  http://t4l.freeservers.com/MEKATORO.HTM

                  -Martin

                  THE resource for beginners
                  http://beamlinks.botic.com
                  http://beamlinks.solarbotics.net
                  "The best of everyone's BEAM"
                • keenerd286
                  Anyways, I found a working link: http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/t4l/mekatoro.htm -Martin http://beamlinks.botic.com
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 2, 2003
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                  • J Wolfgang Goerlich
                    Total Robots is selling a bipedal robot kit. I ran across the Total Robots web site looking for a Solarbotics UK distributor, and noticed the Sted-E-Man kit.
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jun 6, 2003
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                      Total Robots is selling a bipedal robot kit. I ran across the Total
                      Robots web site looking for a Solarbotics UK distributor, and noticed
                      the Sted-E-Man kit. The price is £285 GBP; which is $473 USD, or
                      $635 CDN. Here is the link:

                      Total Robots > Sted-E-Man
                      http://www.totalrobots.com/stedeman_files/stedeman.htm

                      There are a few videos, and it looks to me like Sted-E-Man builds off
                      of the "Bigfoot" concept. Would it be possible to build something
                      along these lines with a servocore?

                      J Wolfgang Goerlich

                      Bruce Robinson wrote:
                      > A couple of very skilled BEAMers have tried to make multi-joint
                      > humanoid walkers using several motors (e.g. up to 10). The results
                      > haven't met their expectations, mainly due to the problems of
                      > controlling so many motors. Personally I think the best BEAM
                      > approach is to start with two motors, similar to "Bigfoot"
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