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SPSH with inverted 1381 SE

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  • Mike Robertson
    finally got to do soem designing heres my work let me know your thoughts, concerns, and (wilf ) improvements thanks
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 5 9:44 AM
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      finally got to do soem designing
      heres my work
      let me know your thoughts, concerns, and (wilf ) improvements
      thanks
       
    • Ori
      That will work just fine, but... An improvement from someone you wouldn t expect (Wilf ;). Connect all of the parts as you would if the cap was a battery,
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 5 10:16 AM
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        That will work just fine, but... An improvement from someone you wouldn't expect (Wilf ;).
         
        Connect all of the parts as you would if the cap was a battery, except do not connect the enable pins of your 240. Then, all you need to do is put the 13812 in, and connect the output to the enable pins.
         
        Skip the solarengine! ;)
         
        Ori
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 12:44 PM
        Subject: [beam] SPSH with inverted 1381 SE

        finally got to do soem designing
        heres my work
        let me know your thoughts, concerns, and (wilf ) improvements
        thanks
         


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      • Mike Robertson
        i wasn t exactly clear on what changes you meant but here s what i did 13812 out to pin 1 on XX240 19 stayed on ground 20 to Vcc 10 to gnd 13812 pin 2 to pin
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 5 12:53 PM
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          i wasn't exactly clear on what changes you meant
          but here's what i did
          13812 out to pin 1 on XX240
          19 stayed on ground
          20 to Vcc
          10 to gnd
          13812 pin 2 to pin vcc
          13812 pin 3 to pin gnd
           
          and the last inverter was added to the driver portion
          pin 9 to 7 (pin 1 to 9 removed)
          pin 11 to 13
          10M resistor connecting pin 10 and 11 removed
          and cap values were changed
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Ori
          Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 1:16 PM
          Subject: Re: [beam] SPSH with inverted 1381 SE

          That will work just fine, but... An improvement from someone you wouldn't expect (Wilf ;).
           
          Connect all of the parts as you would if the cap was a battery, except do not connect the enable pins of your 240. Then, all you need to do is put the 13812 in, and connect the output to the enable pins.
           
          Skip the solarengine! ;)
           
        • Wilf Rigter
          Hi Mike, Ori s suggestion is good. Some tiny comments: You re correct to switch the PDs with pin 1. Otherwise those can leak a lot of current during charging.
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 5 4:14 PM
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            Hi Mike,

            Ori's suggestion is good.
            Some tiny comments:
            You're correct to switch the PDs with pin 1. Otherwise those can leak a lot
            of current during charging.
            Leave pin 19connected to 0V as you suggested to avoid floating inputs.

            The right hand PD should be reversed. The 1uF cap should be 0.01uF and the
            0.1 uF should be 0.001uF to make the response time 0.1 seconds (With 10M and
            1uF the timeconstant would be 10sec!).

            wilf


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Mike Robertson" <mikerobe@...>
            To: <beam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 12:53 PM
            Subject: Re: [beam] SPSH with inverted 1381 SE


            i wasn't exactly clear on what changes you meant
            but here's what i did
            13812 out to pin 1 on XX240
            19 stayed on ground
            20 to Vcc
            10 to gnd
            13812 pin 2 to pin vcc
            13812 pin 3 to pin gnd

            and the last inverter was added to the driver portion
            pin 9 to 7 (pin 1 to 9 removed)
            pin 11 to 13
            10M resistor connecting pin 10 and 11 removed
            and cap values were changed
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Ori
            To: beam@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 1:16 PM
            Subject: Re: [beam] SPSH with inverted 1381 SE


            That will work just fine, but... An improvement from someone you wouldn't
            expect (Wilf ;).

            Connect all of the parts as you would if the cap was a battery, except do
            not connect the enable pins of your 240. Then, all you need to do is put the
            13812 in, and connect the output to the enable pins.

            Skip the solarengine! ;)



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          • Mike Robertson
            all right ver 1-2 is what i have built right now and it works seemingly quite well but i haven t found any caps of the same values as those in your original
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 5 6:55 PM
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              all right
              ver 1-2 is what i have built right now and it works seemingly quite well
              but i haven't found any caps of the same values as those in your original
              circuit
              the two caps...do they control the on and off time? (off charge, on run)
              if so then i could just drop the 10 M down to 100k and keep usign the same
              caps i have right?

              maybe i should start working through other circuits and convert them to use
              the inverted 1381


              mike

              m
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Wilf Rigter" <wrigter@...>
              To: <beam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 7:14 PM
              Subject: Re: [beam] SPSH with inverted 1381 SE


              > Hi Mike,
              >
              > Ori's suggestion is good.
              > Some tiny comments:
              > You're correct to switch the PDs with pin 1. Otherwise those can leak a
              lot
              > of current during charging.
              > Leave pin 19connected to 0V as you suggested to avoid floating inputs.
              >
              > The right hand PD should be reversed. The 1uF cap should be 0.01uF and
              the
              > 0.1 uF should be 0.001uF to make the response time 0.1 seconds (With 10M
              and
              > 1uF the timeconstant would be 10sec!).
              >
              > wilf
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Mike Robertson" <mikerobe@...>
              > To: <beam@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 12:53 PM
              > Subject: Re: [beam] SPSH with inverted 1381 SE
              >
              >
              > i wasn't exactly clear on what changes you meant
              > but here's what i did
              > 13812 out to pin 1 on XX240
              > 19 stayed on ground
              > 20 to Vcc
              > 10 to gnd
              > 13812 pin 2 to pin vcc
              > 13812 pin 3 to pin gnd
              >
              > and the last inverter was added to the driver portion
              > pin 9 to 7 (pin 1 to 9 removed)
              > pin 11 to 13
              > 10M resistor connecting pin 10 and 11 removed
              > and cap values were changed
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Ori
              > To: beam@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 1:16 PM
              > Subject: Re: [beam] SPSH with inverted 1381 SE
              >
              >
              > That will work just fine, but... An improvement from someone you
              wouldn't
              > expect (Wilf ;).
              >
              > Connect all of the parts as you would if the cap was a battery, except
              do
              > not connect the enable pins of your 240. Then, all you need to do is put
              the
              > 13812 in, and connect the output to the enable pins.
              >
              > Skip the solarengine! ;)
              >
              >
              >
              > ---
              > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
              > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > beam-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Ori
              ... Whoops, I just looked at the SE, not the rest of the circuit. Sorry! Ori
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 5 8:46 PM
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                >Hi Mike,
                >
                > Ori's suggestion is good.
                > Some tiny comments:

                Whoops, I just looked at the SE, not the rest of the circuit. Sorry!

                Ori
              • Wilf Rigter
                I have attached a simple PSHEAD v1 schematic for a brief explanation. It still is the simplest and most elegant of the PShead designs. The actual component
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 5 9:18 PM
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                  I have attached a simple PSHEAD v1 schematic for a brief explanation. It
                  still is the simplest and most elegant of the PShead designs. The actual
                  component values don't matter very much as is explained below.

                  The PD1/PD2 photobridge acts as a voltage divider with the midpoint at Vcc/2
                  when the light on each PD is equal. The response is ;inear over a wide range
                  of ambient light levels. Some PDs are very efficient and may need some light
                  shielding (ie heat shrink) to reduce the photo current level in very bright
                  light.

                  The hi/lo oscillator is uses R1/C1 to set the basic frequency. Resistor R3
                  connected from the photobridge midpoint to the R/C node of the oscillator is
                  used to influence that frequency. That frequency depends on the voltage of
                  the midpoint as well as the absolute resistance of the PDs. In general, the
                  frequency is the lowest when the PD bridge center voltage is near the
                  threshold of the 7AC240 inverter input.

                  With a R1 to R3 = 10 to 1 ratio, the frequency and the duty cycle varies
                  when the PD output voltage is less than +/-10% above or below the threshold.
                  Voltage levels above and below that +/-10% range will cause the output of
                  the oscillator to stop and will be steady high or low, inverted with respect
                  to the input voltage. The band of oscillation can be made more or less by
                  decreasing or increasing the ratio of R1 and R3 values. (ie if R1=R3 it
                  always oscillates). I use typical ratios of between 2 to 1 and 10 to 1. If
                  the ratio is high, the sensitivity is greater but the tendency to wiggle is
                  also greater. Remember a shaky head is not power efficient.

                  For some applications that have lot's of build in damping (ie Submarine
                  head, Mazola head) R3 can be 0 ohm 8)

                  The Nv/Nu driver (also called Nx driver) both differentiates and integrates
                  the complementary outputs from the oscillator. When the oscillator
                  oscillates, the Nx driver AC couples the output pulses noninverted as the Nx
                  time constant is longer than the oscillator period. With AC coupled
                  (non-inverted AC) pulses in phase across the motor, the PSHead is in the
                  power save mode but with the brake on! That is important to be able to stop
                  the motor rotation quickly to avoid mecahnical overshoot when the head is
                  aligned with the light source.

                  When the oscillator stops oscillating theres are no pulses to AC couple and
                  instead, the steady output is DC coupled (and inverted) to cause a
                  differential voltage across the motor which then rotates.

                  The ratio of the R1/C1 and R2/C2 time constant should be about 1 to 10 for
                  low standby power. Smaller ratios can be used for faster and more "varied"
                  response but sometimes higher standby current. Since the R1/C1 time
                  constant is influenced by R3 and the photo bridge output voltage, that ratio
                  will vary with light level. The ratios of those two RC timeconstant
                  component values cause a variety of behaviour, sensitivity and efficiency.
                  For solar powered PS Heads, the time constant of R2/C2 should (probably) be
                  much shorter than the duration of the SE pop or some unpredictable (perhaps
                  interesting) side effects may occur.

                  Hope that short description helps,

                  wilf


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Mike Robertson" <mikerobe@...>
                  To: <beam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 6:55 PM
                  Subject: Re: [beam] SPSH with inverted 1381 SE


                  > all right
                  > ver 1-2 is what i have built right now and it works seemingly quite well
                  > but i haven't found any caps of the same values as those in your original
                  > circuit
                  > the two caps...do they control the on and off time? (off charge, on run)
                  > if so then i could just drop the 10 M down to 100k and keep usign the same
                  > caps i have right?
                  >
                  > maybe i should start working through other circuits and convert them to
                  use
                  > the inverted 1381
                  >
                  >
                  > mike
                  >
                  > m
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Wilf Rigter" <wrigter@...>
                  > To: <beam@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 7:14 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [beam] SPSH with inverted 1381 SE
                  >
                  >
                  > > Hi Mike,
                  > >
                  > > Ori's suggestion is good.
                  > > Some tiny comments:
                  > > You're correct to switch the PDs with pin 1. Otherwise those can leak a
                  > lot
                  > > of current during charging.
                  > > Leave pin 19connected to 0V as you suggested to avoid floating inputs.
                  > >
                  > > The right hand PD should be reversed. The 1uF cap should be 0.01uF and
                  > the
                  > > 0.1 uF should be 0.001uF to make the response time 0.1 seconds (With 10M
                  > and
                  > > 1uF the timeconstant would be 10sec!).
                  > >
                  > > wilf
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "Mike Robertson" <mikerobe@...>
                  > > To: <beam@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 12:53 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [beam] SPSH with inverted 1381 SE
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > i wasn't exactly clear on what changes you meant
                  > > but here's what i did
                  > > 13812 out to pin 1 on XX240
                  > > 19 stayed on ground
                  > > 20 to Vcc
                  > > 10 to gnd
                  > > 13812 pin 2 to pin vcc
                  > > 13812 pin 3 to pin gnd
                  > >
                  > > and the last inverter was added to the driver portion
                  > > pin 9 to 7 (pin 1 to 9 removed)
                  > > pin 11 to 13
                  > > 10M resistor connecting pin 10 and 11 removed
                  > > and cap values were changed
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: Ori
                  > > To: beam@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 1:16 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [beam] SPSH with inverted 1381 SE
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > That will work just fine, but... An improvement from someone you
                  > wouldn't
                  > > expect (Wilf ;).
                  > >
                  > > Connect all of the parts as you would if the cap was a battery, except
                  > do
                  > > not connect the enable pins of your 240. Then, all you need to do is put
                  > the
                  > > 13812 in, and connect the output to the enable pins.
                  > >
                  > > Skip the solarengine! ;)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---
                  > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                  > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                  > > Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release Date: 3/17/2003
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > beam-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >


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                • Mike Robertson
                  well needness to say the SPSH i built works well...i get about 10 to 15 degress of rotation per shot but now the disappointment....yet again i ve freeformed
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 6 8:40 PM
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                    well needness to say the SPSH i built works well...i get about 10 to 15
                    degress of rotation per shot but now the disappointment....yet again i've
                    freeformed the circuit modeled directly from the breadboard and the thing
                    dont work right.... i get tiny twitches.
                    I've compared every connection to the breadboard version at least 8 times
                    and there are no mistakes and no shorts all components are the same value as
                    the breadboard.

                    i dont want to add this one to the pile of about 15 other freeformed
                    circuits i've built that dont work...come to think of it every freeform i've
                    done has failed to work properly or at all
                    =(

                    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

                    =p
                    mike
                  • Drew Brown
                    Double check your chip orientation (position) Hit each connecton one more time with the soldering iron just to make sure you got good connections. Did you
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 6 9:01 PM
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                      Double check your chip orientation (position)
                      Hit each connecton one more time with the soldering iron just to make sure you got good connections.
                      Did you happen to overheat the chip while soldering it? (seems unlikely but possible)
                       
                      Sorry to hear you are having trouble freeforming.
                      That's my personal favorite technique.
                       
                      DrewB
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 10:40 PM
                      Subject: Re: [beam] SPSH with inverted 1381 SE

                      well needness to say the SPSH i built works well...i get about 10 to 15
                      degress of rotation per shot but now the disappointment....yet again i've
                      freeformed the circuit modeled directly from the breadboard and the thing
                      dont work right.... i get tiny twitches.
                      I've compared every connection to the breadboard version at least 8 times
                      and there are no mistakes and no shorts all components are the same value as
                      the breadboard.

                      i dont want to add this one to the pile of about 15 other freeformed
                      circuits i've built that dont work...come to think of it every freeform i've
                      done has failed to work properly or at all
                      =(

                      AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

                      =p
                      mike



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