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RE: [beam] Miller SE origin?

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  • Wilf Rigter
    To be precise Dave attached to his post in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-beam/message/8362 the schematic of the original Miller Engines which he described
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 12, 2002
      To be precise Dave attached to his post in:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-beam/message/8362

      the schematic of the original Miller Engines which he described as:

      "Originally designed by Andrew Miller in 1995, this Solarengine design has
      been distilled to this most optimum layout".

      This was followed by my circuit analysis in:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-beam/message/8385

      in particular pointing out the circuit analysis and the merit of the MLVSE
      design which used a resistor in the 1381 ground pin.

      Pity that I did not see the obvious improvement of using a diode instead of
      the resistor at that time.

      Anyway my small contribution was acknowledged in:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-beam/message/8392

      and some short time later (when?) Miller replaced the resistor in MLVSE
      design with a diode which optimized the circuit behavior for a bipolar
      output transistor. IMHO this version of the Miller Engine is (still) the
      simplest and best SE design today.

      wilf



      -----Original Message-----
      From: Dave Hrynkiw
      To: beam@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: 3/12/02 4:16 PM
      Subject: Re: [beam] Miller SE origin?

      At 02:54 PM 12/03/2002, laminar gerbil wrote:
      >1381 solar engines were the standard. The "Miller" SE seems to have
      >popped up within the last year, I think. Is this Ian's idea too and is
      he
      >still around somewhere?

      This was Andrew Miller's circuit, which came about from his playing
      around
      with the then-new 1381 voltage detectors. Since then, Solarbotics
      acquired
      the rights to it from him, and we published the circuit and tutorials.

      BTW, Ian is in college now, busy doing book-lernin'...

      Regards,
      Dave
      ---------------------------------------------------------------
      "Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
      that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
      2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
      http://www.solarbotics.com



      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      beam-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • Will LeGros
      I am unable to access the alt-BEAM archives. Could you or someone else who is able to access them provide a means of viewing those messages? Thanks Will
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 12, 2002

        I am unable to access the alt-BEAM archives.  Could you or someone else who is able to access them provide a means of viewing those messages?

        Thanks

        Will LeGros

          Wilf Rigter <wilf.rigter@...> wrote:

        To be precise Dave attached to his post in:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-beam/message/8362

        the schematic of the original Miller Engines which he described as:

        "Originally designed by Andrew Miller in 1995, this Solarengine design has
        been distilled to this most optimum layout".

        This was followed by my circuit analysis in:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-beam/message/8385

        in particular pointing out the circuit analysis and the merit of the MLVSE
        design which used a resistor in the 1381 ground pin.

        Pity that I did not see the obvious improvement of using a diode instead of
        the resistor at that time.

        Anyway my small contribution was acknowledged in:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-beam/message/8392

        and some short time later (when?) Miller replaced the resistor in MLVSE
        design with a diode which optimized the circuit behavior for a bipolar
        output transistor. IMHO this version of the Miller Engine is (still) the
        simplest and best SE design today.

        wilf



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Dave Hrynkiw
        To: beam@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: 3/12/02 4:16 PM
        Subject: Re: [beam] Miller SE origin?

        At 02:54 PM 12/03/2002, laminar gerbil wrote:
        >1381  solar engines were the standard. The "Miller" SE seems to have
        >popped up within the last year, I think. Is this Ian's idea too and is
        he
        >still around somewhere?

        This was Andrew Miller's circuit, which came about from his playing
        around
        with the then-new 1381 voltage detectors. Since then, Solarbotics
        acquired
        the rights to it from him, and we published the circuit and tutorials.

        BTW, Ian is in college now, busy doing book-lernin'...

        Regards,
        Dave
        ---------------------------------------------------------------
        "Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_.  Yes,
        that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
                    2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
                         http://www.solarbotics.com



        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        beam-unsubscribe@egroups.com



        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        beam-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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      • Wilf Rigter
        Straight from the ALTBEAM archive, here follows a bit of BEAM history well worth repeating: From: Dave Hrynkiw [SMTP:dave@s...] Sent: Saturday, December 18,
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 12, 2002
          Straight from the ALTBEAM archive, here follows a bit of BEAM history well
          worth repeating:

          From: Dave Hrynkiw [SMTP:dave@s...]
          Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 3:13 AM
          To: beam@s...
          Subject: Solarbotics Miller Engines

          Hi all.

          In the rapid explosion of SE growth going on lately, here's our little
          contribution. We recently licensed this solarengine design from the Mr.
          Andrew Miller of AM Innovations. Simple and effective, we hope you enjoy
          it!

          This circuit is available for private use only, and any commercial use
          must
          be approved by us, the license holder.

          Regards,
          Dave Hrynkiw

          Instructions:

          The Solarbotics MILLER ENGINE (under license from AM Innovations)

          The Miller Solarengine (MSE) is a simple, effective Type-1 solarengine
          with a configurable discharge time that can drive both inductive and
          non-inductive loads. The advantage of this solarengine is that it can
          allow for frequent very high level bursts of energy that last for only a set
          period of time, rather than letting stored power run completely out as with
          traditional 3904/3906 type solarengines. Originally designed by Andrew
          Miller in 1995, this Solarengine design has been distilled to this most
          optimum layout.

          The 1381 drives a power transistor or FET via it's CMOS output for a period
          determined by the value of the time discharge capacitor, C2.
          The diode D1 is any standard signal diode (i.e.:1N914), which adds
          approximately 0.7V to the trigger value of the 1381 selected (ie: C trigger
          is 2.2V trigger plus 0.7 = 2.9V trigger voltage). More diodes can be added
          in series to further increase the trigger voltage in 0.7V steps (for
          standard signal diodes). C1 should be a high value capacitor, along the
          lines of a 0.33F 2.5V Panasonic Gold AL capacitor. If voltages required are
          higher than the cap value, placing two in series is advisable (2 x 0.33F
          caps in series = 1 cap 0.167F at 5V maximum rating).

          C2 sets the hysterisis value (the on time) by keeping the voltage the 1381
          sees above it's shut-off voltage. The value of C2 is highly dependant on the
          drive component selected. For FETs, values of 0.1µF to 10µF give pulses
          0.4 to 4 seconds long. When using BJT (standard) transistors, the capacitor
          value should range anywhere from 47µF to 1000µF, giving pulses durations
          between 0.4 to 2 seconds long. Experimentation is required based on your
          device load.

          Current limiting resistor R1 is only really necessary for designs using
          transistors, and are optional for FET variations. 2.2k being standard,
          other values of 470 ohm to 10k are quite suitable depending on your
          application.

          If low-voltage (lower than the 1381C set at 2.9V) operation is required, a
          germanium diode can be used instead of the standard 1N914, which will lower
          the voltage step from 0.7V to 0.4V. This means a 1381C setup will activate
          at approximately 2.6V rather than the 2.9V using a standard silicon diode.
          For even lower voltage use, substitute a wire for the diode, and place a
          20k resistor (R2) between the ground leg of the 1381 after C2 and the
          ground rail. C2 will have to be raised appropriately, as it will now
          discharge through the 1381 and the resistor.


          From: Wilf Rigter <Wilf.Rigter@p...>
          Date: Sat Dec 18, 1999 12:10 pm
          Subject: [alt-beam] Re: Solarbotics Miller Engines

          Greetings Dave,

          Nice job presenting the MSE design

          Some comments:

          These designs are simple and effective in the best beAM Innovation
          tradition.

          The MSE circuit, using the 2N7000 is of course identical to the PM1 (that
          Miller's too?) but using a bipolar transistor output with a large C2 is a
          nice twist.


          In the MSE, if a higher trigger voltage is desired, why not use a 1381 with
          a different suffix letter rather than adding diodes. BTW the diode voltage
          drops at low current should be much lower than .7V ie 400mV or less and for
          a 1N914 @ <1mA is more like 50mV.

          I really like the MLVSE circuit and see no reason why it should not be used
          for all voltages up to the 4.8V - 1381U. The MLVSE is intriguingly simple
          in design and application but quite complicated in it's internal operation:

          It will trigger at the rated 1381 trigger voltage and at that point the OUT
          pin 1 will be at the Vdd pin 2 level which is now connected directly to C1.
          The voltage on the C1 starts to fall from load current and the OUT voltage
          also drops tracking the main cap. The 1381 does not reset immediately (after
          100mV hysteresis) as would be the case without the Vss resistor, because the
          voltage at Vss pin 3 is now driven negative through C2 to below the 0V
          level! The R2/C2 time constant in conjunction with the 1381 reset voltage
          determine the duration of the SE on time.

          I think that the MLVSE circuit should work very well with bipolar
          transistors. However for the 2N7000, the gate voltage should be 2V or the
          fet's Rds(on) will rise too high. Since the fet gate voltage is equal to the
          C1 (Vdd) voltage) which is dropping while the 1381 is still on, the fet
          Rds(on) is also increasing, robbing voltage from the motor load but still
          discharging the main cap. Very careful selection of C1/motor load and R2/C2
          time constants is required to avoid wasting energy.

          >C2 sets the hysterisis value (the on time) by keeping the voltage the 1381
          sees above it's shut-off voltage.

          the term "hysteresis value" is generally reserved for the difference
          voltage between the trigger and reset voltage thresholds and for the 1381
          that value is between 50mV and 300mV. This is distinct from "the on time"
          set by the time constant of R2/C2

          Note the clear difference in the operation of the MSE and the 1381/34164
          Chloroplast circuits. The 1381 Choroplast effectively increases the 1381
          trigger and hysteresis voltage by using positive feedback from pin 3 to pin
          2 which causes the voltage at pin 2 to rise to the main cap voltage (up to
          double the trigger voltage) after it triggers. The MC34164 uses the
          difference in ON/OFF state quiescent current producing a difference in
          forward voltage drop on a series resistor to do the same thing. This permits
          this type of 1381/34164 SE to be used at higher than rated trigger voltage
          with the corresponding bigger motor kick.

          regards

          wilf


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Will LeGros
          To: beam@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: 3/12/02 6:40 PM
          Subject: RE: [beam] Miller SE origin?

          I am unable to access the alt-BEAM archives. Could you or someone else
          who is able to access them provide a means of viewing those messages?


          Thanks


          Will LeGros

          Wilf Rigter <wilf.rigter@...> wrote:


          To be precise Dave attached to his post in:

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-beam/message/8362
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-beam/message/8362>

          the schematic of the original Miller Engines which he described as:

          "Originally designed by Andrew Miller in 1995, this Solarengine design
          has
          been distilled to this most optimum layout".

          This was followed by my circuit analysis in:

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-beam/message/8385
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-beam/message/8385>

          in particular pointing out the circuit analysis and the merit of the
          MLVSE
          design which used a resistor in the 1381 ground pin.

          Pity that I did not see the obvious improvement of using a diode instead
          of
          the resistor at that time.

          Anyway my small contribution was acknowledged in:

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-beam/message/8392
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alt-beam/message/8392>

          and some short time later (when?) Miller replaced the resistor in MLVSE
          design with a diode which optimized the circuit behavior for a bipolar
          output transistor. IMHO this version of the Miller Engine is (still) the
          simplest and best SE design today.

          wilf



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Dave Hrynkiw
          To: beam@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: 3/12/02 4:16 PM
          Subject: Re: [beam] Miller SE origin?

          At 02:54 PM 12/03/2002, laminar gerbil wrote:
          >1381 solar engines were the standard. The "Miller" SE seems to have
          >popped up within the last year, I think. Is this Ian's idea too and is
          he
          >still around somewhere?

          This was Andrew Miller's circuit, which came about from his playing
          around
          with the then-new 1381 voltage detectors. Since then, Solarbotics
          acquired
          the rights to it from him, and we published the circuit and tutorials.

          BTW, Ian is in college now, busy doing book-lernin'...

          Regards,
          Dave
          ---------------------------------------------------------------
          "Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
          that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
          2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
          http://www.solarbotics.com
          <http://www.solarbotics.com/>



          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          beam-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>



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        • Dave Hrynkiw
          ... It s kinda difficult, with Yahoo s strangeness as of late. We (Solarbotics) hired a programmer to strip the archives from Yahoo, and now we have a dumb
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 12, 2002
            At 07:40 PM 12/03/2002, Will LeGros wrote:
            >I am unable to access the alt-BEAM archives. Could you or someone else
            >who is able to access them provide a means of viewing those messages?

            It's kinda difficult, with Yahoo's strangeness as of late. We (Solarbotics)
            hired a programmer to strip the archives from Yahoo, and now we have a dumb
            database. Next step is re-compiling it to some useable form.

            In the meanwhile... expect a few OLD emails!

            Regards,
            Dave
            ---------------------------------------------------------------
            "Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
            that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
            2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
            http://www.solarbotics.com
          • Your Friendly Hogfather
            ... I ve just sent you the invite (which is the only way to get in, alas!) so respond and I believe you ll be in. Please reply to the list if it works. The
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 12, 2002
              At 07:40 PM 3/12/02, Will LeGros wrote:

              >I am unable to access the alt-BEAM archives. Could you or someone else
              >who is able to access them provide a means of viewing those messages?

              I've just sent you the invite (which is the only way to get in, alas!) so
              respond and I believe you'll be in. Please reply to the list if it works.

              The same applies to anyone else who has tried to access alt-beam
              unsuccessfully -- send me email privately and I'll do the YahooGroups thing.


              yfh
            • Will LeGros
              The moderator who is also a member of this group invited me to join so I can now get the messages. Thanks whoever you are! Will LeGros Dave Hrynkiw
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 12, 2002

                The moderator who is also a member of this group invited me to join so I can now get the messages.  Thanks whoever you are!

                Will LeGros

                 

                  Dave Hrynkiw <sbcrap@...> wrote:

                At 07:40 PM 12/03/2002, Will LeGros wrote:
                >I am unable to access the alt-BEAM archives.  Could you or someone else
                >who is able to access them provide a means of viewing those messages?

                It's kinda difficult, with Yahoo's strangeness as of late. We (Solarbotics)
                hired a programmer to strip the archives from Yahoo, and now we have a dumb
                database. Next step is re-compiling it to some useable form.

                In the meanwhile... expect a few OLD emails!

                Regards,
                Dave
                ---------------------------------------------------------------
                "Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_.  Yes,
                that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
                            2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
                                 http://www.solarbotics.com



                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                beam-unsubscribe@egroups.com



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                Find, Connect, Date! Yahoo! Canada Personals.

              • Dave Hrynkiw
                ... Fortunately, I ve got a good programmer here who s able to parse out most of it with little corruption. We ll keep y all informed of the progress...
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 13, 2002
                  At 07:50 PM 13/03/2002, R. Martin Keen wrote:
                  >Grrrr. I've been doing this for the past several months. Hand coding
                  >all 14+ Mb (without images!) into HTML. I should do 45 messages a day,
                  >to finish within a year, but I'm way behind. I'm working on a bit of
                  >code to format the text for me, but the going is slow. Well, good luck.
                  >Its a huge endeavor.

                  Fortunately, I've got a good programmer here who's able to parse out most
                  of it with little corruption. We'll keep y'all informed of the progress...

                  Regards,
                  Dave
                  ---------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
                  that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
                  2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
                  http://www.solarbotics.com
                • Gord Mitchell
                  To Dave Hrynkiw Hi Dave did you see my post on the 8212? Am I doing something wrong or is my data right? gord
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 13, 2002
                    To Dave Hrynkiw

                    Hi Dave did you see my post on the 8212? Am I doing
                    something wrong or is my data right?

                    gord

                    __________________________________________________
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                  • Dave Hrynkiw
                    ... Yes, I did (sorry, meant to repost sooner). We retested the graphs just last night, and we re getting correct values from the graph - sorry! Not sure what
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 13, 2002
                      At 05:41 PM 13/03/2002, Gord Mitchell wrote:
                      >Hi Dave did you see my post on the 8212? Am I doing
                      >something wrong or is my data right?

                      Yes, I did (sorry, meant to repost sooner).

                      We retested the graphs just last night, and we're getting correct values
                      from the graph - sorry! Not sure what the problem with your set up is...

                      Regards,
                      Dave
                      ---------------------------------------------------------------
                      "Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
                      that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
                      2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
                      http://www.solarbotics.com
                    • Gord Mitchell
                      ... So are my values right with the new graph? r1= 100k r2=47k r3=430k I get trigure at 6.67v and turn off at 1.737v . I love the results. I built a symet
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 13, 2002
                        > We retested the graphs just last night, and we're
                        > getting correct values
                        > from the graph - sorry! Not sure what the problem
                        > with your set up is...

                        So are my values right with the new graph? r1= 100k
                        r2=47k r3=430k I get trigure at 6.67v and turn off
                        at 1.737v . I love the results. I built a symet using
                        a 3300uf cap that is almost as active as my symet
                        using 50000uf. it dosen't travel as far on a pop but
                        it pops faster and covers almost the same didtance in
                        the same time. Nice circit.

                        Gord



                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
                        http://mail.yahoo.com/
                      • R. Martin Keen
                        Grrrr. I ve been doing this for the past several months. Hand coding all 14+ Mb (without images!) into HTML. I should do 45 messages a day, to finish within
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 13, 2002
                          Grrrr. I've been doing this for the past several months. Hand coding
                          all 14+ Mb (without images!) into HTML. I should do 45 messages a day,
                          to finish within a year, but I'm way behind. I'm working on a bit of
                          code to format the text for me, but the going is slow. Well, good luck.
                          Its a huge endeavor.

                          -Martin

                          THE resource for beginners
                          http://beamlinks.botic.com
                          "The best of everyone's BEAM"


                          On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:01:40 -0700 Dave Hrynkiw <sbcrap@...>
                          writes:
                          > At 07:40 PM 12/03/2002, Will LeGros wrote:
                          > >I am unable to access the alt-BEAM archives. Could you or someone
                          > else
                          > >who is able to access them provide a means of viewing those
                          > messages?
                          >
                          > It's kinda difficult, with Yahoo's strangeness as of late. We
                          > (Solarbotics)
                          > hired a programmer to strip the archives from Yahoo, and now we have
                          > a dumb
                          > database. Next step is re-compiling it to some useable form.
                          >
                          > In the meanwhile... expect a few OLD emails!
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          > Dave
                          > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                          > "Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
                          > that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
                          > 2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
                          > http://www.solarbotics.com
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > beam-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >


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