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New year, new article

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  • Bruce Robinson
    Happy New Year, everybody. I ve promised this article a few times and I finally made my ultimate deadline. Completed by the end of 2001, just.
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 31, 2001
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      Happy New Year, everybody.

      I've promised this article a few times and I finally made my ultimate
      deadline. Completed by the end of 2001, just.

      http://www3.telus.net/rfws/beam/article/MP_00.html

      Especially for those of you who think BEAM is dying and has nowhere left
      to go ... a new frontier.

      Comments appreciated.

      Bruce
    • Wilf Rigter
      Congratulations Bruce! An inspiring tour de force , at once providing structure and opening possibilities for advancement of the state of the art of Beam.
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 1, 2002
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        Congratulations Bruce!

        An inspiring "tour de force", at once providing structure and opening
        possibilities for advancement of the state of the art of Beam. There is
        enough material to require several read-throughs to get the concepts and
        proposed implimentations to gel and to be able to make some useful comments.
        Speaking self-referencially, I will stay tuned and provide some feedback.

        wilf



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Bruce Robinson
        To: beam@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: 12/31/01 11:52 PM
        Subject: [beam] New year, new article

        Happy New Year, everybody.

        I've promised this article a few times and I finally made my ultimate
        deadline. Completed by the end of 2001, just.

        http://www3.telus.net/rfws/beam/article/MP_00.html

        Especially for those of you who think BEAM is dying and has nowhere left
        to go ... a new frontier.

        Comments appreciated.

        Bruce


        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        beam-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • Jim Martin
        Hi Bruce, After reading through your article, and the other documentation at your web site, I am going to take a crack at building up a ShyHead I. Would
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 1, 2002
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          Hi Bruce,
           
          After reading through  your article,  and the other documentation at your web site,  I am going to take a crack at building up a ShyHead I.   Would you please give me your recommendation of the various types of motors that you would suggest using with this design?
           
          Thanks....
           
          Jim D. Martin
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 2:52 AM
          Subject: [beam] New year, new article

          Happy New Year, everybody.

          I've promised this article a few times and I finally made my ultimate
          deadline. Completed by the end of 2001, just.

            http://www3.telus.net/rfws/beam/article/MP_00.html

          Especially for those of you who think BEAM is dying and has nowhere left
          to go ... a new frontier.

          Comments appreciated.

          Bruce


          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          beam-unsubscribe@egroups.com



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • Jeff Steele
          Bruce, Congradulations on a very well done paper. And thank you for sharing your research and thoughts on the application of BEAM robotics in more advanced
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 1, 2002
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            Bruce,

            Congradulations on a very well done paper.

            And thank you for sharing your research and thoughts on the application
            of BEAM robotics in more advanced systems. I have actually been trying
            to keep up on your Hider project and this paper just pulls it all
            together and gives us all a lot of new ideas to explore.

            Thanks again for sharing.

            Jeff

            --- Bruce Robinson <Bruce_Robinson@...> wrote:
            > Happy New Year, everybody.
            >
            > I've promised this article a few times and I finally made my ultimate
            > deadline. Completed by the end of 2001, just.
            >
            > http://www3.telus.net/rfws/beam/article/MP_00.html
            >
            > Especially for those of you who think BEAM is dying and has nowhere
            > left
            > to go ... a new frontier.
            >
            > Comments appreciated.
            >
            > Bruce
            >


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          • dkbovaird@aol.com
            Hope everyone has a happy new year. Bruce, it looks like you ve done quite a bit of homework, and as usual, it looks like you put a lot of thought behind your
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 1, 2002
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              Hope everyone has a happy new year.

              Bruce, it looks like you've done quite a bit of homework, and as usual, it
              looks like you put a lot of thought behind your expression. A lot of
              interesting reading here. thanks,

              dave.
            • Ori
              Very interesting! Your article has given me a different perspective on how neural networks work, basically a better understanding, but a bit more than that.
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 1, 2002
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                Very interesting!

                Your article has given me a different perspective on how neural networks
                work, basically a better understanding, but a bit more than that. With this
                information, I'll probably start thinking of things that are worth posting
                (Really complicated :).

                Thanks,

                Ori

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Bruce Robinson" <Bruce_Robinson@...>
                To: <beam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:52 PM
                Subject: [beam] New year, new article


                > Happy New Year, everybody.
                >
                > I've promised this article a few times and I finally made my ultimate
                > deadline. Completed by the end of 2001, just.
                >
                > http://www3.telus.net/rfws/beam/article/MP_00.html
                >
                > Especially for those of you who think BEAM is dying and has nowhere left
                > to go ... a new frontier.
                >
                > Comments appreciated.
                >
                > Bruce
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > beam-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • David Simmons
                Bruce, First off, Happy New Year to you and yours! Very interesting read, and I hope a sign of things to come over the year of BEAMing, from everyone. While I
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 1, 2002
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                  Bruce,

                  First off, Happy New Year to you and yours!

                  Very interesting read, and I hope a sign of things to come over the year of
                  BEAMing, from everyone. While I should not need to do a major stock up on
                  resisters to get a small start-up on the breadboard I better go grab a few
                  hundred 1N4148 diodes:)

                  Your article has filled in a number of blanks left by some of our early
                  discussions and opened even more ideas. Kyle and I will be discussing this
                  for a while, even if nothing gets to the breadboard for a while.

                  Many thanks for the info, and inspirations,

                  Dave S.

                  BTW - Any chance you'll be dropping by the WCRG this year?
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Bruce Robinson <Bruce_Robinson@...>
                  To: <beam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 7:52 AM
                  Subject: [beam] New year, new article


                  > Happy New Year, everybody.
                  >
                  > I've promised this article a few times and I finally made my ultimate
                  > deadline. Completed by the end of 2001, just.
                  >
                  > http://www3.telus.net/rfws/beam/article/MP_00.html
                  >
                  > Especially for those of you who think BEAM is dying and has nowhere left
                  > to go ... a new frontier.
                  >
                  > Comments appreciated.
                  >
                  > Bruce
                • Bruce Robinson
                  ... That s how I buy them. Too bad they don t make a 1/8 watt resistors with ingtegral diodes. ... Count on it :) Bruce
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 1, 2002
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                    David Simmons wrote:
                    >
                    > While I should not need to do a major stock up on
                    > resisters to get a small start-up on the breadboard
                    > I better go grab a few hundred 1N4148 diodes:)

                    That's how I buy them. Too bad they don't make a 1/8 watt resistors with
                    ingtegral diodes.

                    > BTW - Any chance you'll be dropping by the WCRG this year?

                    Count on it :)

                    Bruce
                  • David Simmons
                    Bruce, Great, Kyle and I are looking forward to. We ll see you, and everyone else that is coming, there. Later, Dave S. ... From: Bruce Robinson
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 2, 2002
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                      Bruce,

                      Great, Kyle and I are looking forward to. We'll see you, and everyone else
                      that is coming, there.

                      Later,
                      Dave S.
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Bruce Robinson <Bruce_Robinson@...>
                      > > BTW - Any chance you'll be dropping by the WCRG this year?
                      >
                      > Count on it :)
                      >
                      > Bruce
                    • Ori
                      But what about the ECRG? It may be at the Ontario Science Center in Toronto, but I have not heard about this being finalized. I ll be at the ECRG, and I m
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 2, 2002
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                        But what about the ECRG? It may be at the Ontario Science Center in Toronto,
                        but I have not heard about this being finalized. I'll be at the ECRG, and
                        I'm trying to get my parents to let me go to the WCRG.

                        Ori

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "David Simmons" <devs@...>
                        To: <beam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:29 AM
                        Subject: Re: [beam] New year, new article


                        > Bruce,
                        >
                        > Great, Kyle and I are looking forward to. We'll see you, and everyone else
                        > that is coming, there.
                        >
                        > Later,
                        > Dave S.
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Bruce Robinson <Bruce_Robinson@...>
                        > > > BTW - Any chance you'll be dropping by the WCRG this year?
                        > >
                        > > Count on it :)
                        > >
                        > > Bruce
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > beam-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • Robert Morris
                        Bruce, Great article, thanks. Here are some comments/ideas concerning closed loop control. One of the things that struck me while reading this section was how
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 3, 2002
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                          Bruce,
                          Great article, thanks.
                          Here are some comments/ideas concerning closed loop control.
                          One of the things that struck me while reading this section was how similar
                          it is to the use of hobby servos, where a motor program sends out a
                          position signal to the servo and assumes that it will move to the correct
                          position. The local feedback in the servo itself takes care of any error
                          due to loads, low voltage, etc.
                          It should be a simple matter to set up a bicore within your motor program
                          circuit to send out the necessary pulse code for positioning, or modify the
                          existing PWM portion.
                          If you would rather not use servos, a BEAM version should not be too
                          difficult to make.
                          For the feedback sensor you could use a potentiometer attached to the
                          joint, or use something like those flexible resistive sensors that Jameco
                          sells. These could be used to bias one side of a bicore whose
                          outputs power the joint motor. The opposite side would have an input where
                          the position voltage is supplied. When this voltage is different from the
                          voltage coming from the feedback sensor the motor will rotate until the
                          bicore is balanced again, like a head circuit. If you wanted to use some
                          kind of pulse code for the position command, you could just place a
                          capacitor to ground between your pulse code circuit and the bicore input to
                          smooth out the pulses into a steady voltage.

                          Robert
                        • Robert Morris
                          One more note. I have also read in the book Mobile Robots about a sensor called a rubbery ruler that is basically a coil of wire embedded in stretchable tube
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jan 3, 2002
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                            One more note.
                            I have also read in the book Mobile Robots about a sensor called a rubbery
                            ruler that is basically a coil of wire embedded in stretchable tube that
                            acts like a variable capacitor when stretched. Something like this could
                            probably be used as the Golgi tendons in your examples. Connected across
                            the joint, the variable capacitance could alter the frequency of a bicore
                            which could be used to send an inhibiting signal back to the motor command
                            circuit. The higher the frequency, the greater the inhibition.
                            Unfortunately, the website mentioned in the book for the sensor no longer
                            exists, and I haven't been able to find much info about it elsewhere.

                            Robert
                          • Bruce Robinson
                            ... Hi, Robert. That s a good point. I have a general idea of how servos work but I haven t paid close attention to many of the discussions. Fortunately my
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jan 6, 2002
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                              Robert Morris wrote:
                              >
                              > Here are some comments/ideas concerning closed loop
                              > control. One of the things that struck me while reading
                              > this section was how similar it is to the use of hobby
                              > servos, where a motor program sends out a position signal
                              > to the servo and assumes that it will move to the correct
                              > position. The local feedback in the servo itself takes
                              > care of any error due to loads, low voltage, etc.

                              Hi, Robert.

                              That's a good point. I have a general idea of how servos work but I
                              haven't paid close attention to many of the discussions. Fortunately my
                              pack-rat mentatlity has saved me here -- I've got a number of Wilf &
                              Chiu's discussions and diagrams filed away.

                              In the article I glossed over the issue of selection -- choosing the
                              proper motor program or perceptual trace to accomplish a task. First we
                              need to find out of the mechanisms work before we get into complex
                              selection circuits. However, your comment brings up another issue --
                              whichever method of human motor control we emulate, the selection
                              process will require information about existing positions of the
                              motors/limbs/servos. If we can hack a servo to pull out it's position
                              information and send it to a high level selection circuit, then they
                              would seem to be perfect. If not, then some kind of external position
                              sensor is going to be required in any case.

                              There is a great deal of experimenting to be done to figure out if my
                              ideas have any merit and if so, how best to implement them. This is one
                              more good idea to add to the list of things to check out. I suspect I'll
                              have to create a commentary page with all these ideas listed :)

                              Bruce
                            • Robert Morris
                              You re right. I ve been thinking about building a robotic arm using servos (probably PC based to begin with) and getting the current position is something I ve
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jan 7, 2002
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                                You're right. I've been thinking about building a robotic arm using servos
                                (probably PC based to begin with) and getting the current position is
                                something I've been thinking about for it too.
                                One idea I have is: I am not sure exactly how they are wired up inside,
                                but you may be able to sample the voltage coming from the potentiometer
                                using a voltage follower and determine the position from that. If not, its
                                back to gutting them except for the pot and building my own BEAMized servo
                                control that will allow me to use the potentiometer voltage.

                                Robert

                                At 09:18 AM 1/6/2002 -0800, you wrote:

                                >In the article I glossed over the issue of selection -- choosing the
                                >proper motor program or perceptual trace to accomplish a task. First we
                                >need to find out of the mechanisms work before we get into complex
                                >selection circuits. However, your comment brings up another issue --
                                >whichever method of human motor control we emulate, the selection
                                >process will require information about existing positions of the
                                >motors/limbs/servos. If we can hack a servo to pull out it's position
                                >information and send it to a high level selection circuit, then they
                                >would seem to be perfect. If not, then some kind of external position
                                >sensor is going to be required in any case.
                                >
                                >Bruce
                              • Ori
                                Servos work like this: You have your R/C Transmitter, that s the box with the levers. You push the lever forward, and you are changing the value of a connected
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jan 7, 2002
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                                  Servos work like this:

                                  You have your R/C Transmitter, that's the box with the levers. You push
                                  the lever forward, and you are changing the value of a connected
                                  potentiometer. To make a long story short (Not getting into any detail about
                                  this, because it is not important :)this is emitted to the receiver, and the
                                  receiver gets the servo to turn until the resistance at the servo is equal
                                  to that at the lever.

                                  With this knowledge, you can screw around with the electronics inside of
                                  servos, and make R/C motors that will turn as long as long as the lever on
                                  the transmitter is pointed either up or down, by simply removing the
                                  electronics, with the potentiometer, and not mechanically connect the
                                  potentiometer to the motor (Keep it for fine adjustments). Do this twice and
                                  use a relay h-bridge, with 24V and windshield wiper motors, strap on a miter
                                  saw, and voila! Your own Battlebots competitor (Or robotica, or robot wars,
                                  you it doesn't matter, they're all the same ;)

                                  The first message I got on this list was written by Clifford Boerema,
                                  and it was entitled "A Servo Neuron". Search for that, it covers the use of
                                  unmodified servos in BEAM bots. (I haven't been on the list for that long,
                                  have I? And to think that over that time it's been about 4173 messages... :)

                                  Ori

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Robert Morris" <robertm@...>
                                  To: <beam@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 7:18 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [beam] New year, new article


                                  > You're right. I've been thinking about building a robotic arm using servos
                                  > (probably PC based to begin with) and getting the current position is
                                  > something I've been thinking about for it too.
                                  > One idea I have is: I am not sure exactly how they are wired up inside,
                                  > but you may be able to sample the voltage coming from the potentiometer
                                  > using a voltage follower and determine the position from that. If not, its
                                  > back to gutting them except for the pot and building my own BEAMized servo
                                  > control that will allow me to use the potentiometer voltage.
                                  >
                                  > Robert
                                  >
                                  > At 09:18 AM 1/6/2002 -0800, you wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >In the article I glossed over the issue of selection -- choosing the
                                  > >proper motor program or perceptual trace to accomplish a task. First we
                                  > >need to find out of the mechanisms work before we get into complex
                                  > >selection circuits. However, your comment brings up another issue --
                                  > >whichever method of human motor control we emulate, the selection
                                  > >process will require information about existing positions of the
                                  > >motors/limbs/servos. If we can hack a servo to pull out it's position
                                  > >information and send it to a high level selection circuit, then they
                                  > >would seem to be perfect. If not, then some kind of external position
                                  > >sensor is going to be required in any case.
                                  > >
                                  > >Bruce
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > beam-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
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