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RE: [bbshop] Use of autotune

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  • John Flynn
    This is not specifically about the use of autotune but I think highlights the fact that many live performances are not really completely live . The Alexandria
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 2, 2010
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      This is not specifically about the use of autotune but I think highlights
      the fact that many live performances are not really completely "live". The
      Alexandria Harmonizes have been invited to sing at the Kennedy Center Honors
      (see blurb from Web below) a number times in the past. This show includes
      live performances from many big-name stars. Prior to the "live" performances
      most of the performing artists are taken into a sound studio area and their
      performance is recorded several times. When you come on stage for the real
      performance you do sing live but the sound system is also carrying the
      recorded sound and the sound engineer mixes the true live performance with
      the recorded performance to ensure the combined sound is exactly what they
      want for both the live audience and the TV broadcast. The first time I sang
      on the Kennedy Center Honors I remember being somewhat insulted that they
      didn't trust us to perform flawlessly until I saw they also followed the
      same process for most of the really big name stars.





      The annual Honors Gala has become the highlight of the Washington cultural
      year, and its broadcast on CBS is a high point of the television season. On
      Sunday, December 5, in a star-studded celebration on the Kennedy Center
      Opera House stage, produced by George Stevens Jr. and Michael Stevens, the
      2010 Honorees will be saluted by great performers from New York, Hollywood,
      Nashville, and the arts capitals of the world. Seated with the President of
      the United States and Mrs. Obama, the Honorees will accept the thanks of
      their peers and fans through performances and heartfelt tributes.





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kyle Kitzmiller
      I m really sorry, but the misuse of the term autotune really grinds my gears. Autotune is a plugin within your sound editing program that tunes due to a
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 3, 2010
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        I'm really sorry, but the misuse of the term "autotune" really grinds my gears. "Autotune" is a plugin within your sound editing program that tunes due to a group of settings that you predetermine and add to a track. This in most cases will mess up consonants and make switching between notes very choppy. Most notably for this is Cher in "Do You Believe in Life After Love" Will I Am from Black Eyed Peas in almost everything he sings, and finally T-Pain. You can hear the distinct pitch changes on each of these recordings, though these are used for effect and taken to the max.

        Now what every one of these "autotune" posts is referring to is instead more properly called "pitch correction" because the engineer/producer of the recording will instead go in and *manually* tune pitches. This is common among a good majority of youtube multitrackers and learning track producers for barbershop (myself included).

        The hard truth is that it definitely saves time to use the software, especially when all the recordings are of you and there is no way to be able to organically be able to react to other performers, as you would in a quartet. When you're trying to record a CD and are paying for studio time, or when you are running a business, time is a huge consideration, and therefore this option in the digital age is often looked at as a time/money saver.

        Nearly all of the popular music media uses pitch correction, including things like Glee, for all the same reasons, saving time and money. I can't imagine the amount of time it takes to crank out that kind of stuff for every week, any way to help I'm sure is appreciated.

        Please use the right term, "pitch correction" instead of "autotune"

        Kyle Kitzmiller
        Autotune avoider.



        --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, James Trapp <jamesqtrapp@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > you can definitely hear the digitalized sound coming from the show, but I think there's also a lot of work that goes into the recording process as well. I'm sure every performer on Glee do all they can to sing as well as they possibly can which means multiple sessions singing the same song occur. Before any auto-tuning occurs, I would bet bottom dollar that they are doing there best to sing everything 100% correctly. The "Clean" sound could be coming from the aftermath while mixing and mastering.
        > But we've heard these performers live while on stage, dancing around and doing all kinds of choreography and their typically dead on pitch. I don't think there's as much auto-tuning going on in the show as we think.
        >
        > Jimmy Quentin Trapp
        > Baritone - 52Eighty Chorus2010 International Youth Chorus Championswww.52eightychorus.com
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Jeffrey Reifsnyder
        I m really sorry, but the misuse of the term pitch correction really grinds my gears. Pitch correction is a generic term for a program within your advanced
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 3, 2010
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          I'm really sorry, but the misuse of the term "pitch correction" really
          grinds my gears. "Pitch correction" is a generic term for a program within
          your advanced binary-based electronic device (or "computer") that tunes due
          to a group of settings that you predetermine and add to a track.

          Now what every one of these "pitch correction" posts is referring to is
          instead more properly called "phase
          vocoding<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_vocoder>"
          because the programmer of the software wrote it so that an individual could
          use Fourier transforms to fix minor variances of a digital representation of
          a set of frequencies, later to be sent through signal processing and used to
          create minute changes in a magnet which in turn moves a diaphragm in a
          container with certain acoustical properties (more commonly called a
          "speaker"), to fit a specific range of frequencies predetermined to be
          pleasing to the human ear. This is common among a good majority of
          programmers with an interest in mathematics and the movement of air in wave
          patterns that stimulates muscles in the ear at certain frequencies that
          sometimes match in simple quotients to extend the frequency range through
          resonance that are often played in temporal sequence with each other (more
          commonly called "music"), myself included (although my programming's a
          little rusty these days, and I definitely didn't design the any of the
          autotuning software options out there. I gave up on Fourier transformations
          after I graduated from college).

          It's a kleenex versus tissue versus
          creped-paper<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tissue_paper>thing, man. If
          you want to avoid generally accepted vernacular, then you're
          in the wrong hobby brother. I'd like to point out that the linked article to
          phase vocoder specifically uses Auto-Tune as an example. There's a "pitch
          correction" article on there too, which also specifically talks about
          Auto-Tune and even has quotes from professional sound engineers, not our
          apparently all-knowing multitrackers, who continually call their phase
          vocoders "autotune."

          Exit Counter-rant.

          By the by, it's those Fourier transformations that cause voices to sound
          funny. They remove a lot of inconsistencies most of us have. Another thing
          that annoys me is that it also messes with the frequencies that are a
          function of the location. A great acoustical performance is just as
          dependent on the location as it is on the the talent and ability of the
          artist, even when you close your eyes and only listen. Each location is
          unique acoustically speaking. A truly great musician gets a sense of the
          everything about a performance and appropriately alters it to fit the
          location and audience. Running the raw recordings through all of these
          digital and mathematical circus rings universalizes the sounds and takes
          away a great deal of what makes great musical artists true artists.

          I'm not much for other forms of art, but I do know stories about a famous
          artist sitting and staring at a rock for days before even taking a chisel to
          it to make a sculpture because he was waiting for the rock to tell him what
          was within it to be sculpted. All artistry has a medium to be considered
          uniquely. Imagine if Picasso had official copy makers for his art that made
          slight alterations to it for the sake of making it cheaper or better
          looking. That's effectively what sound engineers do to recordings when they
          do these things.

          I do not have the money to collect raw, uncompressed recordings of artists
          like other audiophiles out there, but I certainly would if I did, because
          hearing the passion in an artists voice, the unique sound of the location
          where it was recorded, and the emotion of the audience's applause (or lack
          there of) is a great joy to me. That's why I love a good live show. This is
          also why I dislike electric instruments like keyboards, although some new
          keyboards are acceptable (if you feel like paying as much or more than you
          would for a piano for an electric device).

          It's also why I'm always a little disappointed when I show up for a
          Barbershop convention and it's in a conventional hall instead of a theater.
          Conventional halls don't sound as awesome.

          That all being said, it's unavoidable for shows like Glee and I understand
          that. Point of interest, I do not watch and have never actually seen an
          episode of Glee. Although it'd be great to see them try a truly live
          performance with those folks.

          Time to cut this off before I have to go find a publisher.


          Jeffrey Reifsnyder
          Copy-maker avoider
          e-mail: jayreif@...
          cell: (713) 890 - 2530


          On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Kyle Kitzmiller <kakitzmiller@...>wrote:

          >
          >
          > I'm really sorry, but the misuse of the term "autotune" really grinds my
          > gears. "Autotune" is a plugin within your sound editing program that tunes
          > due to a group of settings that you predetermine and add to a track. This in
          > most cases will mess up consonants and make switching between notes very
          > choppy. Most notably for this is Cher in "Do You Believe in Life After Love"
          > Will I Am from Black Eyed Peas in almost everything he sings, and finally
          > T-Pain. You can hear the distinct pitch changes on each of these recordings,
          > though these are used for effect and taken to the max.
          >
          > Now what every one of these "autotune" posts is referring to is instead
          > more properly called "pitch correction" because the engineer/producer of the
          > recording will instead go in and *manually* tune pitches. This is common
          > among a good majority of youtube multitrackers and learning track producers
          > for barbershop (myself included).
          >
          > The hard truth is that it definitely saves time to use the software,
          > especially when all the recordings are of you and there is no way to be able
          > to organically be able to react to other performers, as you would in a
          > quartet. When you're trying to record a CD and are paying for studio time,
          > or when you are running a business, time is a huge consideration, and
          > therefore this option in the digital age is often looked at as a time/money
          > saver.
          >
          > Nearly all of the popular music media uses pitch correction, including
          > things like Glee, for all the same reasons, saving time and money. I can't
          > imagine the amount of time it takes to crank out that kind of stuff for
          > every week, any way to help I'm sure is appreciated.
          >
          > Please use the right term, "pitch correction" instead of "autotune"
          >
          > Kyle Kitzmiller
          > Autotune avoider.
          >
          > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com <bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>, James Trapp
          > <jamesqtrapp@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > you can definitely hear the digitalized sound coming from the show, but I
          > think there's also a lot of work that goes into the recording process as
          > well. I'm sure every performer on Glee do all they can to sing as well as
          > they possibly can which means multiple sessions singing the same song occur.
          > Before any auto-tuning occurs, I would bet bottom dollar that they are doing
          > there best to sing everything 100% correctly. The "Clean" sound could be
          > coming from the aftermath while mixing and mastering.
          > > But we've heard these performers live while on stage, dancing around and
          > doing all kinds of choreography and their typically dead on pitch. I don't
          > think there's as much auto-tuning going on in the show as we think.
          > >
          > > Jimmy Quentin Trapp
          > > Baritone - 52Eighty Chorus2010 International Youth Chorus
          > Championswww.52eightychorus.com
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Wallace
          Thanks for the clarification. I had no idea. David Wallace ... From: Kyle Kitzmiller To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 10:22 AM
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 3, 2010
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            Thanks for the clarification. I had no idea.

            David Wallace

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Kyle Kitzmiller
            To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 10:22 AM
            Subject: [bbshop] Re: Use of autotune



            I'm really sorry, but the misuse of the term "autotune" really grinds my gears. "Autotune" is a plugin within your sound editing program that tunes due to a group of settings that you predetermine and add to a track. This in most cases will mess up consonants and make switching between notes very choppy. Most notably for this is Cher in "Do You Believe in Life After Love" Will I Am from Black Eyed Peas in almost everything he sings, and finally T-Pain. You can hear the distinct pitch changes on each of these recordings, though these are used for effect and taken to the max.

            Now what every one of these "autotune" posts is referring to is instead more properly called "pitch correction" because the engineer/producer of the recording will instead go in and *manually* tune pitches. This is common among a good majority of youtube multitrackers and learning track producers for barbershop (myself included).

            The hard truth is that it definitely saves time to use the software, especially when all the recordings are of you and there is no way to be able to organically be able to react to other performers, as you would in a quartet. When you're trying to record a CD and are paying for studio time, or when you are running a business, time is a huge consideration, and therefore this option in the digital age is often looked at as a time/money saver.

            Nearly all of the popular music media uses pitch correction, including things like Glee, for all the same reasons, saving time and money. I can't imagine the amount of time it takes to crank out that kind of stuff for every week, any way to help I'm sure is appreciated.

            Please use the right term, "pitch correction" instead of "autotune"

            Kyle Kitzmiller
            Autotune avoider.

            --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, James Trapp <jamesqtrapp@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > you can definitely hear the digitalized sound coming from the show, but I think there's also a lot of work that goes into the recording process as well. I'm sure every performer on Glee do all they can to sing as well as they possibly can which means multiple sessions singing the same song occur. Before any auto-tuning occurs, I would bet bottom dollar that they are doing there best to sing everything 100% correctly. The "Clean" sound could be coming from the aftermath while mixing and mastering.
            > But we've heard these performers live while on stage, dancing around and doing all kinds of choreography and their typically dead on pitch. I don't think there's as much auto-tuning going on in the show as we think.
            >
            > Jimmy Quentin Trapp
            > Baritone - 52Eighty Chorus2010 International Youth Chorus Championswww.52eightychorus.com
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kyle Kitzmiller
            Thanks, I already know what a Fourier Transform is as well as a Phase Vocoder. I went to college too. You ll notice I said more appropriate rather than
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 3, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks, I already know what a Fourier Transform is as well as a Phase Vocoder. I went to college too. You'll notice I said "more appropriate" rather than "specifically."

              Thank you for the mature reply.
              Kyle Kitzmiller



              --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Reifsnyder <jayreif@...> wrote:
              >
              > I'm really sorry, but the misuse of the term "pitch correction" really
              > grinds my gears. "Pitch correction" is a generic term for a program within
              > your advanced binary-based electronic device (or "computer") that tunes due
              > to a group of settings that you predetermine and add to a track.
              >
              > Now what every one of these "pitch correction" posts is referring to is
              > instead more properly called "phase
              > vocoding<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_vocoder>"
              > because the programmer of the software wrote it so that an individual could
              > use Fourier transforms to fix minor variances of a digital representation of
              > a set of frequencies, later to be sent through signal processing and used to
              > create minute changes in a magnet which in turn moves a diaphragm in a
              > container with certain acoustical properties (more commonly called a
              > "speaker"), to fit a specific range of frequencies predetermined to be
              > pleasing to the human ear. This is common among a good majority of
              > programmers with an interest in mathematics and the movement of air in wave
              > patterns that stimulates muscles in the ear at certain frequencies that
              > sometimes match in simple quotients to extend the frequency range through
              > resonance that are often played in temporal sequence with each other (more
              > commonly called "music"), myself included (although my programming's a
              > little rusty these days, and I definitely didn't design the any of the
              > autotuning software options out there. I gave up on Fourier transformations
              > after I graduated from college).
              >
              > It's a kleenex versus tissue versus
              > creped-paper<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tissue_paper>thing, man. If
              > you want to avoid generally accepted vernacular, then you're
              > in the wrong hobby brother. I'd like to point out that the linked article to
              > phase vocoder specifically uses Auto-Tune as an example. There's a "pitch
              > correction" article on there too, which also specifically talks about
              > Auto-Tune and even has quotes from professional sound engineers, not our
              > apparently all-knowing multitrackers, who continually call their phase
              > vocoders "autotune."
              >
              > Exit Counter-rant.
              >
              > By the by, it's those Fourier transformations that cause voices to sound
              > funny. They remove a lot of inconsistencies most of us have. Another thing
              > that annoys me is that it also messes with the frequencies that are a
              > function of the location. A great acoustical performance is just as
              > dependent on the location as it is on the the talent and ability of the
              > artist, even when you close your eyes and only listen. Each location is
              > unique acoustically speaking. A truly great musician gets a sense of the
              > everything about a performance and appropriately alters it to fit the
              > location and audience. Running the raw recordings through all of these
              > digital and mathematical circus rings universalizes the sounds and takes
              > away a great deal of what makes great musical artists true artists.
              >
              > I'm not much for other forms of art, but I do know stories about a famous
              > artist sitting and staring at a rock for days before even taking a chisel to
              > it to make a sculpture because he was waiting for the rock to tell him what
              > was within it to be sculpted. All artistry has a medium to be considered
              > uniquely. Imagine if Picasso had official copy makers for his art that made
              > slight alterations to it for the sake of making it cheaper or better
              > looking. That's effectively what sound engineers do to recordings when they
              > do these things.
              >
              > I do not have the money to collect raw, uncompressed recordings of artists
              > like other audiophiles out there, but I certainly would if I did, because
              > hearing the passion in an artists voice, the unique sound of the location
              > where it was recorded, and the emotion of the audience's applause (or lack
              > there of) is a great joy to me. That's why I love a good live show. This is
              > also why I dislike electric instruments like keyboards, although some new
              > keyboards are acceptable (if you feel like paying as much or more than you
              > would for a piano for an electric device).
              >
              > It's also why I'm always a little disappointed when I show up for a
              > Barbershop convention and it's in a conventional hall instead of a theater.
              > Conventional halls don't sound as awesome.
              >
              > That all being said, it's unavoidable for shows like Glee and I understand
              > that. Point of interest, I do not watch and have never actually seen an
              > episode of Glee. Although it'd be great to see them try a truly live
              > performance with those folks.
              >
              > Time to cut this off before I have to go find a publisher.
              >
              >
              > Jeffrey Reifsnyder
              > Copy-maker avoider
              > e-mail: jayreif@...
              > cell: (713) 890 - 2530
              >
              >
              > On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Kyle Kitzmiller <kakitzmiller@...>wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > I'm really sorry, but the misuse of the term "autotune" really grinds my
              > > gears. "Autotune" is a plugin within your sound editing program that tunes
              > > due to a group of settings that you predetermine and add to a track. This in
              > > most cases will mess up consonants and make switching between notes very
              > > choppy. Most notably for this is Cher in "Do You Believe in Life After Love"
              > > Will I Am from Black Eyed Peas in almost everything he sings, and finally
              > > T-Pain. You can hear the distinct pitch changes on each of these recordings,
              > > though these are used for effect and taken to the max.
              > >
              > > Now what every one of these "autotune" posts is referring to is instead
              > > more properly called "pitch correction" because the engineer/producer of the
              > > recording will instead go in and *manually* tune pitches. This is common
              > > among a good majority of youtube multitrackers and learning track producers
              > > for barbershop (myself included).
              > >
              > > The hard truth is that it definitely saves time to use the software,
              > > especially when all the recordings are of you and there is no way to be able
              > > to organically be able to react to other performers, as you would in a
              > > quartet. When you're trying to record a CD and are paying for studio time,
              > > or when you are running a business, time is a huge consideration, and
              > > therefore this option in the digital age is often looked at as a time/money
              > > saver.
              > >
              > > Nearly all of the popular music media uses pitch correction, including
              > > things like Glee, for all the same reasons, saving time and money. I can't
              > > imagine the amount of time it takes to crank out that kind of stuff for
              > > every week, any way to help I'm sure is appreciated.
              > >
              > > Please use the right term, "pitch correction" instead of "autotune"
              > >
              > > Kyle Kitzmiller
              > > Autotune avoider.
              > >
              > > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com <bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>, James Trapp
              > > <jamesqtrapp@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > you can definitely hear the digitalized sound coming from the show, but I
              > > think there's also a lot of work that goes into the recording process as
              > > well. I'm sure every performer on Glee do all they can to sing as well as
              > > they possibly can which means multiple sessions singing the same song occur.
              > > Before any auto-tuning occurs, I would bet bottom dollar that they are doing
              > > there best to sing everything 100% correctly. The "Clean" sound could be
              > > coming from the aftermath while mixing and mastering.
              > > > But we've heard these performers live while on stage, dancing around and
              > > doing all kinds of choreography and their typically dead on pitch. I don't
              > > think there's as much auto-tuning going on in the show as we think.
              > > >
              > > > Jimmy Quentin Trapp
              > > > Baritone - 52Eighty Chorus2010 International Youth Chorus
              > > Championswww.52eightychorus.com
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Jeffrey Reifsnyder
              No offense brother. My point was KISS. There s no reason to add another level of complication when there s already a commonly established vocabulary about the
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 3, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                No offense brother. My point was KISS. There's no reason to add another
                level of complication when there's already a commonly established vocabulary
                about the whole thing. Things quickly start looking like a legal document
                when you do.

                It was supposed to be humorous. Not me preaching from a high horse. My
                apologies for any misunderstanding about that.


                Jeffrey Reifsnyder
                e-mail: jayreif@...
                cell: (713) 890 - 2530


                On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Kyle Kitzmiller <kakitzmiller@...>wrote:

                >
                >
                > Thanks, I already know what a Fourier Transform is as well as a Phase
                > Vocoder. I went to college too. You'll notice I said "more appropriate"
                > rather than "specifically."
                >
                > Thank you for the mature reply.
                > Kyle Kitzmiller
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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