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Use of Autotune

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  • tpblead
    Here is a topic for discussion. I enjoy watching the TV show Glee, but I really dislike the use of Autotune. I have read others decrying the rampant use of
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 1, 2010
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      Here is a topic for discussion. I enjoy watching the TV show Glee, but I really dislike the use of Autotune. I have read others decrying the rampant use of Autotune on this show and others, but I had not really been able to tell on this show (maybe I really don't know what I am listening for), but my daughter showed me a clip from last night's show, and it seemed that I heard a slight buzz in the sound, that I am assuming is an artifact of Autotune.

      I can understand using Autotune when the performer is just not up to staying in tune, or perhaps to get a specific effect, but in the case of this show, it seems like the talent involved and the fact that the performances are pre-recorded and dubbed, allowing retakes to get it right, would mean that Autotune shouldn't be necessary.

      My question is this: Do they use Autotune because production costs preclude going back and "doing it right", so it is just easier to tweak it and go on, or is there something else at work here. I find it hard to believe that they couldn't find someone that could carry a tune to be on this (or any other) show.

      Thoughts?

      Tim Buell
      Autotune free.
      And usually at least close to on key.
    • Jeffrey Reifsnyder
      Tim, A buzz isn t really a tell-tale of autotune s use. That probably means you were hearing a problem with the speakers you were listening with. It doesn t
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 1, 2010
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        Tim,

        A "buzz" isn't really a tell-tale of autotune's use. That probably means you
        were hearing a problem with the speakers you were listening with. It doesn't
        really mess with the vocal quality too much, at least in small doses,
        although there is certainly a difference. I tend to notice that voices sound
        too perfect or too computerized with autotune. That's due to the inherent
        digital modification of the sound waves; in a graph of the sound waves, the
        autotuned voice will look more smooth than the raw recording. My biggest
        annoyance with autotune is that it's not Pythagorean tempering, it's equal
        tempering (in layman's terms, pure tuning versus the tuning of a piano's
        keys). Although, some of the new versions apparently let you get a more fine
        tuned control of the notes. The average listener won't notice the tiny
        tuning issues in an equal tempered tuning anyway.

        Bad autotuned tracks will have a very stepped sound to them; swipes will be
        broken down by the program to individual notes instead. However, skilled
        recording engineers can get around that.

        To answer your specific question, autotune speeds up the process. Or, in the
        case of not so hot singers, makes it possible at all.
        From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-Tune):
        In 2009, *Time* magazine quoted an unnamed Grammy-winning recording engineer
        as saying, "Let's just say I've had Auto-Tune save vocals on everything from
        Britney Spears to Bollywood cast albums. And every singer now presumes that
        you'll just run their voice through the box." The same article expressed
        "hope that pop's fetish for uniform perfect pitch will fade", speculating
        that pop-music songs have become harder to differentiate from one another,
        as "track after track has perfect pitch."[18][19] Timothy Powell, a
        producer/engineer stated in 2003 that he is "even starting to see vocal
        tuning devices show up in concert settings"; he states that "That's more of
        an ethical dilemma�people pay a premium dollar to see artists and artists
        want people to see them at their
        best."<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-Tune#cite_note-Tribune-10>

        Another quote taken from wikipedia:
        According to the *Boston Herald*, "Country stars Faith Hill and Tim McGraw
        have both confessed to using Auto-Tune in performance, claiming it is a
        safety net that guarantees a good performance.

        <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-Tune#cite_note-8>I hope that helps.


        Jeffrey Reifsnyder
        e-mail: jayreif@...
        cell: (713) 890 - 2530


        On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 3:45 PM, tpblead <tpbuell@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > Here is a topic for discussion. I enjoy watching the TV show Glee, but I
        > really dislike the use of Autotune. I have read others decrying the rampant
        > use of Autotune on this show and others, but I had not really been able to
        > tell on this show (maybe I really don't know what I am listening for), but
        > my daughter showed me a clip from last night's show, and it seemed that I
        > heard a slight buzz in the sound, that I am assuming is an artifact of
        > Autotune.
        >
        > I can understand using Autotune when the performer is just not up to
        > staying in tune, or perhaps to get a specific effect, but in the case of
        > this show, it seems like the talent involved and the fact that the
        > performances are pre-recorded and dubbed, allowing retakes to get it right,
        > would mean that Autotune shouldn't be necessary.
        >
        > My question is this: Do they use Autotune because production costs preclude
        > going back and "doing it right", so it is just easier to tweak it and go on,
        > or is there something else at work here. I find it hard to believe that they
        > couldn't find someone that could carry a tune to be on this (or any other)
        > show.
        >
        > Thoughts?
        >
        > Tim Buell
        > Autotune free.
        > And usually at least close to on key.
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • GSBMedalMusic@comcast.net
        Autotune use reminds me of the older method of dubbing Marni Nixon s voice for Audrey Hepburn (My Fair Lady!) and Natalie Wood (West Side Story) being the most
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 1, 2010
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          Autotune use reminds me of the older method of dubbing Marni Nixon's voice
          for Audrey Hepburn (My Fair Lady!) and Natalie Wood (West Side Story)
          being the most notable.
          (Don't even get me started on the il-logic of casting Audrey Hepburn
          for the Eliza Doolittle
          when it should have been Julie Andrews all along....)

          It's the "cheaters method"! That's why it just feels WRONG to those
          of us who work so hard to be really good
          at our particular singing craft.

          While the overdubbing MAY have created temporary good "Hollywood",
          it really cheated us in the long run of having the best person for the job
          enshrined forever in film/video. Stupid producers.......

          That being said, I will though confess that my just-prior quartet
          used a form of Autotune to fix a ***few*** notes
          here and there.

          Even though we had (thank God!) our 5th ear in the studio with us (my
          husband Jay G.)
          to help monitor what we did record ("Good take, but we can do it
          better!" "Ok we have a punch point at
          just before the tag." etc. etc. etc.), we still had the reality of
          the economics involved.
          At $100 per hour for studio/engineer/5th ear time, we need to keep
          efficiency in mind
          for our anticipated budget. And we were NOT inclined to go over
          budget, with none
          of us necessarily being (ahem) independently wealthy. ;-)

          Most everything we did, though, probably 98-99%, was "autotune" free
          on that recording,
          so I don't feel like we "cheated" people out of what we REALLY
          sounded like - live and in person.
          Those who bought our CD told us they listened to it over and over and
          over again,
          so I knew we had created a worthy product and not one steeped in
          musical artifice.

          [BTW, I'm one of those "audiophiles" still hanging on to a rather
          VAST vinyl records collection
          simply because the quality - full, rich, resonant in harmonics
          spectrum - has not yet been beat
          by the digitalized, "compression", synthized, autotune era.]

          On a diff. tack but related, I recently met one of the legendary
          "one-take wonders" in the Chicago
          voiceover world. He was having fun playing trombone at the jazz "show
          up with your horn and sit in" night
          at an area restaurant. (Thanks Annie Mac! to you and your mom!)
          THAT kind of talent - "one take" to lay down accurate and appealing
          singing vocals - was HIGHLY
          prized and rewarded in the ad industry. I'm guessing it still is, but
          the jobs are just fewer and farther in between
          because the ads world doesn't seem to value writing great catchy
          jingles much any more.

          - Helen Giallombardo
          autotune-knowledgeable but leaning heavily towards the "keep it real" end
          of the auditory spectrum
        • Shelley Herman
          Here s the story about My Fair Lady: Movie studio head Jack Warner decided Andrews lacked sufficient name recognition for her casting in the film version of My
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 1, 2010
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            Here's the story about My Fair Lady:

            Movie studio head Jack Warner decided Andrews lacked sufficient name
            recognition for her casting in the film version of My Fair Lady; Eliza was
            played by the established film actress Audrey Hepburn instead. As Warner
            later recalled, the decision was easy, "In my business I have to know who
            brings people and their money to a movie theatre box office. Audrey Hepburn
            had never made a financial flop."

            My personal opinion is, although I am a very strong Julie Andrews fan, I
            think that Audrey Hepburn is one of the most beautiful women that ever lived
            and that she and Marni Nixon did a wonderful job as Eliza. When she walked
            down the stairs in that white dress, I thought that she was the most
            stunning lady I ever saw.

            BTW Marni Nixon appeared in the Sound Of Music. She was one of the nuns.

            Replacing voices in movies is nothing new. We were even shown how it works
            in Singin' In The Rain, and we are lucky to have Mario Lanza's voice in the
            Student Prince instead of a lesser voice.

            When making recordings we always keep in mind that, unlike live performance,
            a recording will be played and replayed many times and the performance must
            be as close to perfection as is possible. That's why we do retakes and
            punch-in's. Auto tune is another story, it's often making up for lack of
            ability.

            Shelley Herman
            saherman@...
          • Webb, Allan
            The best revenge for Julie Andrews is the fact that she won the 1965 Oscar for Best Actress (for Mary Poppins), and Audrey Hepburn wasn t even nominated for My
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 1, 2010
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              The best revenge for Julie Andrews is the fact that she won the 1965 Oscar for Best Actress (for Mary Poppins), and Audrey Hepburn wasn't even nominated for My Fair Lady that year (although the movie itself won for Best Picture and a few other things). Julie Andrews was nominated again the following year for Sound Of Music (which won Best Picture). So much for the studios knowing what they're doing.

              Allan

              --
              Allan Webb
              Certified Director, Barbershop Harmony Society
              Lead Emeritus, Masters of Harmony
              Lead, Pacific Coast Harmony
              Senior Staff IT Engineer, Qualcomm Incorporated
              San Diego, CA
              awebb@...
              --


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael Moran
              When music is recorded today many affects are used. Some are for pitch and bend and others are used to enhance the sound. Sometimes they use them because they
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 1, 2010
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                When music is recorded today many affects are used. Some are for pitch and bend and others are used to enhance the sound. Sometimes they use them because they can and the young folks today aren't in to real true audio. When producing a show, time is money and money is time. Many producers of programs such as the one you are talking about want to get it done and move on with no respect for talent and artistry. They are paying for studio time. The beautiful thing about Barbershop and some other forms of acapella music is that it is real, it has feeling and it touches our hearts and souls.

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: tpblead
                To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 4:45 PM
                Subject: [bbshop] Use of Autotune



                Here is a topic for discussion. I enjoy watching the TV show Glee, but I really dislike the use of Autotune. I have read others decrying the rampant use of Autotune on this show and others, but I had not really been able to tell on this show (maybe I really don't know what I am listening for), but my daughter showed me a clip from last night's show, and it seemed that I heard a slight buzz in the sound, that I am assuming is an artifact of Autotune.

                I can understand using Autotune when the performer is just not up to staying in tune, or perhaps to get a specific effect, but in the case of this show, it seems like the talent involved and the fact that the performances are pre-recorded and dubbed, allowing retakes to get it right, would mean that Autotune shouldn't be necessary.

                My question is this: Do they use Autotune because production costs preclude going back and "doing it right", so it is just easier to tweak it and go on, or is there something else at work here. I find it hard to believe that they couldn't find someone that could carry a tune to be on this (or any other) show.

                Thoughts?

                Tim Buell
                Autotune free.
                And usually at least close to on key.





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • karenmaney
                To those who think Autotune just has equal temperament, it actually has 29 different tuning systems. Here s an experiment:
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 1, 2010
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                  To those who think Autotune just has equal temperament, it actually has 29 different tuning systems. Here's an experiment:

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE8DvCx54v8

                  I autotuned the same intro on several different systems. They are not in the order listed in the video screen. I want to see if barbershoppers actually prefer one over the rest. I included pythagorean, mean temperament, and just intonation since I've heard barbershoppers talk about all of these. Also included are two I've never heard of, "partch" and "valotti," and the dreaded equal temperament.

                  Can you tell the difference?

                  Karen Maney
                  www.SingMyPart.com



                  --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "tpblead" <tpbuell@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Here is a topic for discussion. I enjoy watching the TV show Glee, but I really dislike the use of Autotune. I have read others decrying the rampant use of Autotune on this show and others, but I had not really been able to tell on this show (maybe I really don't know what I am listening for), but my daughter showed me a clip from last night's show, and it seemed that I heard a slight buzz in the sound, that I am assuming is an artifact of Autotune.
                  >
                  > I can understand using Autotune when the performer is just not up to staying in tune, or perhaps to get a specific effect, but in the case of this show, it seems like the talent involved and the fact that the performances are pre-recorded and dubbed, allowing retakes to get it right, would mean that Autotune shouldn't be necessary.
                  >
                  > My question is this: Do they use Autotune because production costs preclude going back and "doing it right", so it is just easier to tweak it and go on, or is there something else at work here. I find it hard to believe that they couldn't find someone that could carry a tune to be on this (or any other) show.
                  >
                  > Thoughts?
                  >
                  > Tim Buell
                  > Autotune free.
                  > And usually at least close to on key.
                  >
                • Ben McDaniel
                  Auto-Tune can give a really neat effect to the voice when used as an effect. I don t like it when it is used to fix tuning, though, because it sounds weird
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 2, 2010
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                    Auto-Tune can give a really neat effect to the voice when used as an
                    effect. I don't like it when it is used to fix tuning, though, because
                    it sounds weird (hence its value as an effect). One problem is that
                    the voice doesn't sound right when it is completely pitch-steady, and
                    the other problem is that it screws up consonants. And when it fixes
                    pitch, it changes the timbre, which affects the vowels and the tone
                    color and individuality of the voice.

                    As an effect, it's just like any other cool solo vocal effect, whether
                    it's narrow bandpass (like the Beastie Boys), talk box (like Peter
                    Frampton), speeding up or slowing down the vocals (like Strawberry
                    Fields Forever), backmasking (like "!aaaH-aH ,yawA eM ekaT oT gnimoC
                    er'yehT"), intentionally analog-overdriven vocals, or any kind of
                    phaser or delay. Most of those would might not work do much for
                    ensemble singing, but they can sound really cool with solo vocals.

                    Auto-Tune is only one of the problems with modern vocal recordings.
                    Another is extreme compression and clipping. The audio is compressed
                    (I'm not talking about data compression, but rather the audio effect)
                    until everything is the same volume, and then it is turned up so high
                    that all the waveforms are clipped and everything sounds loud. The
                    overcompression results in obvious changes in tone (if you make a
                    single note louder, it sounds more bassy; if you make it softer, it
                    sounds more trebley -- overcompression results in the volume and tone
                    changing constantly). The clipping results in lots of non-harmonic
                    distortion (harmonic distortion is like a blues guitar; non-harmonic
                    distortion is like a blown speaker).

                    And, of course, data compression screws up audio as well. A high
                    bit-rate mp3 doesn't sound bad, but audio data compression with a low
                    bit rate or one that's been compressed multiple times gets a jangly
                    sound that's just horrible. It's on television all the time now that
                    the audio is digital and the data is compressed (it's most noticeable
                    when an audience is applauding -- listen for that jangly sound during
                    applause sometime), and it's really terrible on internet videos. It's
                    even a problem in movies, where rather than using no data compression
                    with standard 16-bit 44.1 or 48 kHz sampling per channel, which is all
                    the human ear can hear, they use a higher bit rate and sampling and
                    compress the audio data. So they're adding compression that make the
                    sound worse -- you can actually hear it -- so that they can have
                    dynamic precision that you can't hear and high frequencies that you
                    can't hear. (Actually, now that I think about it, for movies 16-bit
                    might not be enough precision -- it's so loud that you could hear when
                    a sound dropped from one bit to zero bits, unless they added some
                    one-bit noise, which might be audible on a big theatre sound system.
                    But there's absolutely no reason to make the sampling rate higher than
                    40-some kHz.)

                    Anyway, I'm not sure why I felt the need to say all of that, but
                    Auto-Tune, audio compression, clipping, and audio data compression
                    really bother me. Give me a recording of a quartet (or any music) with
                    a stereo pair any day (the audible difference between individual mics
                    and a stereo pair is a rant for another day).

                    Ben McDaniel
                    Newton, Kansas
                  • Paul Girard
                    ... The smoothing may be taking the overtones out. ... The term pure tuning doesn t explain the idea. I would say rational tuning, as in Just Intonation
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 2, 2010
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                      On Dec 2, 2010, at 6:58 AM, bbshop@yahoogroups.com wrote:

                      > Re: Use of Autotune
                      > Posted by: "Jeffrey Reifsnyder" jayreif@... jay.reif
                      > Wed Dec 1, 2010 7:21 pm (PST)
                      >
                      > Tim,
                      >
                      > A "buzz" isn't really a tell-tale of autotune's use. That probably
                      > means you
                      > were hearing a problem with the speakers you were listening with. It
                      > doesn't
                      > really mess with the vocal quality too much, at least in small doses,
                      > although there is certainly a difference. I tend to notice that
                      > voices sound
                      > too perfect or too computerized with autotune. That's due to the
                      > inherent
                      > digital modification of the sound waves; in a graph of the sound
                      > waves, the
                      > autotuned voice will look more smooth than the raw recording.

                      The smoothing may be taking the overtones out.

                      > My biggest
                      > annoyance with autotune is that it's not Pythagorean tempering, it's
                      > equal
                      > tempering (in layman's terms, pure tuning versus the tuning of a
                      > piano's
                      > keys).

                      The term "pure" tuning doesn't explain the idea. I would say
                      "rational" tuning, as in Just Intonation ratios or "harmonic" tuning.

                      > <snip>

                      > Jeffrey Reifsnyder
                      > e-mail: jayreif@...
                      > cell: (713) 890 - 2530



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Bruce B
                      Saw a neat demo on Youtube using barbershop to show teh sound with and without autotune. Check out:
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 2, 2010
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                        Saw a neat demo on Youtube using barbershop to show teh sound with and without autotune. Check out:

                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20-ydkc094E&safety_mode=true&persist_safety_mode=1


                        Bruce Baedke <><
                        Bass - Pride of Iowa Chorus

                        --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "tpblead" <tpbuell@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Here is a topic for discussion. I enjoy watching the TV show Glee, but I really dislike the use of Autotune. I have read others decrying the rampant use of Autotune on this show and others, but I had not really been able to tell on this show (maybe I really don't know what I am listening for), but my daughter showed me a clip from last night's show, and it seemed that I heard a slight buzz in the sound, that I am assuming is an artifact of Autotune.
                        >
                        > I can understand using Autotune when the performer is just not up to staying in tune, or perhaps to get a specific effect, but in the case of this show, it seems like the talent involved and the fact that the performances are pre-recorded and dubbed, allowing retakes to get it right, would mean that Autotune shouldn't be necessary.
                        >
                        > My question is this: Do they use Autotune because production costs preclude going back and "doing it right", so it is just easier to tweak it and go on, or is there something else at work here. I find it hard to believe that they couldn't find someone that could carry a tune to be on this (or any other) show.
                        >
                        > Thoughts?
                        >
                        > Tim Buell
                        > Autotune free.
                        > And usually at least close to on key.
                        >
                      • marty.lovick
                        Great Gold medallists .. true champions, and ... oh never mind :-]
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 2, 2010
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                          Great Gold medallists .. true champions, and ... oh never mind :-]

                          --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce B" <kbaedke@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Saw a neat demo on Youtube using barbershop to show teh sound with and without autotune. Check out:
                          >
                          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20-ydkc094E&safety_mode=true&persist_safety_mode=1
                          >
                          >
                          > Bruce Baedke <><
                          > Bass - Pride of Iowa Chorus
                          >
                          > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "tpblead" <tpbuell@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Here is a topic for discussion. I enjoy watching the TV show Glee, but I really dislike the use of Autotune. I have read others decrying the rampant use of Autotune on this show and others, but I had not really been able to tell on this show (maybe I really don't know what I am listening for), but my daughter showed me a clip from last night's show, and it seemed that I heard a slight buzz in the sound, that I am assuming is an artifact of Autotune.
                          > >
                          > > I can understand using Autotune when the performer is just not up to staying in tune, or perhaps to get a specific effect, but in the case of this show, it seems like the talent involved and the fact that the performances are pre-recorded and dubbed, allowing retakes to get it right, would mean that Autotune shouldn't be necessary.
                          > >
                          > > My question is this: Do they use Autotune because production costs preclude going back and "doing it right", so it is just easier to tweak it and go on, or is there something else at work here. I find it hard to believe that they couldn't find someone that could carry a tune to be on this (or any other) show.
                          > >
                          > > Thoughts?
                          > >
                          > > Tim Buell
                          > > Autotune free.
                          > > And usually at least close to on key.
                          > >
                          >
                        • Michael Moran
                          Ben that was a very well thought explanation. ... From: Ben McDaniel To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 11:24 AM Subject: [bbshop]
                          Message 12 of 12 , Dec 5, 2010
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                            Ben that was a very well thought explanation.

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Ben McDaniel
                            To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 11:24 AM
                            Subject: [bbshop] Re: Use of Autotune



                            Auto-Tune can give a really neat effect to the voice when used as an
                            effect. I don't like it when it is used to fix tuning, though, because
                            it sounds weird (hence its value as an effect). One problem is that
                            the voice doesn't sound right when it is completely pitch-steady, and
                            the other problem is that it screws up consonants. And when it fixes
                            pitch, it changes the timbre, which affects the vowels and the tone
                            color and individuality of the voice.

                            As an effect, it's just like any other cool solo vocal effect, whether
                            it's narrow bandpass (like the Beastie Boys), talk box (like Peter
                            Frampton), speeding up or slowing down the vocals (like Strawberry
                            Fields Forever), backmasking (like "!aaaH-aH ,yawA eM ekaT oT gnimoC
                            er'yehT"), intentionally analog-overdriven vocals, or any kind of
                            phaser or delay. Most of those would might not work do much for
                            ensemble singing, but they can sound really cool with solo vocals.

                            Auto-Tune is only one of the problems with modern vocal recordings.
                            Another is extreme compression and clipping. The audio is compressed
                            (I'm not talking about data compression, but rather the audio effect)
                            until everything is the same volume, and then it is turned up so high
                            that all the waveforms are clipped and everything sounds loud. The
                            overcompression results in obvious changes in tone (if you make a
                            single note louder, it sounds more bassy; if you make it softer, it
                            sounds more trebley -- overcompression results in the volume and tone
                            changing constantly). The clipping results in lots of non-harmonic
                            distortion (harmonic distortion is like a blues guitar; non-harmonic
                            distortion is like a blown speaker).

                            And, of course, data compression screws up audio as well. A high
                            bit-rate mp3 doesn't sound bad, but audio data compression with a low
                            bit rate or one that's been compressed multiple times gets a jangly
                            sound that's just horrible. It's on television all the time now that
                            the audio is digital and the data is compressed (it's most noticeable
                            when an audience is applauding -- listen for that jangly sound during
                            applause sometime), and it's really terrible on internet videos. It's
                            even a problem in movies, where rather than using no data compression
                            with standard 16-bit 44.1 or 48 kHz sampling per channel, which is all
                            the human ear can hear, they use a higher bit rate and sampling and
                            compress the audio data. So they're adding compression that make the
                            sound worse -- you can actually hear it -- so that they can have
                            dynamic precision that you can't hear and high frequencies that you
                            can't hear. (Actually, now that I think about it, for movies 16-bit
                            might not be enough precision -- it's so loud that you could hear when
                            a sound dropped from one bit to zero bits, unless they added some
                            one-bit noise, which might be audible on a big theatre sound system.
                            But there's absolutely no reason to make the sampling rate higher than
                            40-some kHz.)

                            Anyway, I'm not sure why I felt the need to say all of that, but
                            Auto-Tune, audio compression, clipping, and audio data compression
                            really bother me. Give me a recording of a quartet (or any music) with
                            a stereo pair any day (the audible difference between individual mics
                            and a stereo pair is a rant for another day).

                            Ben McDaniel
                            Newton, Kansas




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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