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Re: Question of Suitability of Arrangement

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  • ausleadjohn
    Well, this approach and attitude is sure to have new members showing up in droves! Who could resist? Cue what I said in my last post about no need to draw
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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      Well, this approach and attitude is sure to have new members showing
      up in droves! Who could resist?

      Cue what I said in my last post about no need to draw lines in the
      sand... try inclusion and sharing, instead of exclusion and division.

      I have an inkling about which way may be more successful for the
      future.

      John.


      --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bell" <mike@...> wrote:
      >
      > Wrong.
      >
      > Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as
      renaissance madrigals are
      > a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian
      Chant (another a-
      > cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result
      from evolution of the
      > chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or
      Baroque Cantatas? No,
      > a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is
      not as big as the one for
      > rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.
      >
      > The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and
      obscure it's beauty with
      > "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try
      to present another
      > argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't
      hold up to examination
      > in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data
      showing that we can preserve
      > the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach
      Boys or any others,
      > let's see it.
      >
      > Mike Bell
      >
    • i_sing_barbershop_music
      Yes, it is true that the Benedictine monks of Santo Domingo de Silos did have a triple platinum album in the early to mid ninteies, followed by a less
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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        Yes, it is true that the Benedictine monks of Santo Domingo de Silos
        did have a triple platinum album in the early to mid ninteies,
        followed by a less succsessful sequel. But in the world of gregorian
        chants or a cappella music in general, it is quite the anomaly.
        Also, the chants were evolutionary compared to chants in the "old
        days", but that is neither here nor there.

        Really, if you want to get more people interested in barbershop and
        keep our hobby alive, the approach is simple. Sing songs that people
        want to hear and sing them well. We have a hobby that is AWESOME and
        should be much more marketable then it is, and the "four guys in
        striped shirts and hats" was good back in the day, but doesn't work
        as well anymore. I like the fact the the society has become much
        more welcoming towards younger members, because for the longest
        time, they weren't. At least that is my perception.

        This is ALL just a matter of perception. Everything changes over
        time, and some are just more resistent to change than others.

        Adam Haggart


        --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bell" <mike@...> wrote:
        >
        > Wrong.
        >
        > Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as
        renaissance madrigals are
        > a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian
        Chant (another a-
        > cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result
        from evolution of the
        > chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or
        Baroque Cantatas? No,
        > a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is
        not as big as the one for
        > rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.
        >
        > The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and
        obscure it's beauty with
        > "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try
        to present another
        > argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't
        hold up to examination
        > in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data
        showing that we can preserve
        > the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the
        Beach Boys or any others,
        > let's see it.
        >
        > Mike Bell
        >
        > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "i_sing_barbershop_music"
        <adamhaggart@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Barbershop music is a great american artform. But like any
        artform,
        > > it evolves or it dies. Orchestral music progressed from
        renassiance
        > > to romantic to 20th century and beyond. Rap has "evolved" from
        the
        > > likes of Run DMC, DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince to 50 Cent,
        > > Eminem, and Kanye West. (I realize this is not the kind of crowd
        I
        > > am addressing, but I am just trying to make a point.) You take
        any
        > > almost any musical artform and see that it has evolved over the
        > > years to what it is today.
        > >
        > > However, with change, then comes resistance. Controversy. Open
        > > retaliation. The audience detested Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring"
        on
        > > opening night, but later became one of the world's most
        performed
        > > ballets. Many thought that Biz Markie was just making strange
        silly
        > > noises, but now is known as the grandfather of beatboxing and
        has a
        > > huge following. (especially across the pond) OC Times sang Beach
        Boy
        > > tunes (incredibly well) and it turned the barbershop world
        against
        > > each other. Is Surfer Girl barbershop? Does "Took the T-Bird
        Away"
        > > have enough 7th chords? These songs aren't old enough...etc.
        > >
        > > I realize that our Society is actively engaged in the
        preservation
        > > of our artform. But in order to survive, we must be actively
        > > involved in the evolution of this wonderful "hobby". (I say
        hobby
        > > with restraint as it is really an obsession for me and many
        others)
        > > I love singing "Keep the Whole world Singing" at the end of
        every
        > > chorus rehearsal. It really gets me hungry for tag singing and
        gives
        > > me a great feeling that lasts the drive home. It is great to
        throw
        > > down on a "My Wild Irish Rose" for singing valentines and just
        to
        > > have fun. But I also really enjoy singing (attempting)Timmy
        > > Waurick's part on Cruella Deville. Where can we find balance?
        Where
        > > can I (and you) turn for peace?
        > >
        > > I guess what I am really trying to say is the world outgrew the
        > > renassiance period. I don't want the "world" to continue to
        outgrow
        > > barbershop harmony. Most people think of four old guys in
        striped
        > > shirts and hats singing barbershop, and when they see OC Times,
        > > Vocal Spectrum, Realtime, or even the Westminster Chorus (to
        name a
        > > few) they are suprised and enthralled. They are turned on to our
        > > artform and want to be a part of it, even if it is just as a
        > > spectator.
        > >
        > > I understand that many of our older members have turned away
        from
        > > barbershop because of the continual distancing from what is
        > > regaurded as "traditional". But you can't tell me that you can
        sit
        > > down and listen to the Westminster Chorus sing "Their Hearts
        were
        > > full of Spring" and not get a little teary. Or that you can't
        enjoy
        > > Vocal Spectrum and Gas House Gang just ripping the head off of
        > > Scarbourough Fair. Regardless of what age you are. I hope to not
        > > offend too many by saying, "So what?" So what if there aren't 75
        7th
        > > chords and the song the arrangement was based on was created in
        the
        > > 80's, 90's, or heaven forbid, this decade? As long as it is sung
        > > well, barbershop is great...no matter how old the song (or
        > > performer) is.
        > >
        > > As a young person in barbershop, I promise that I will never
        stop
        > > singing "the old songs." Never. There is too much juicy goodness
        in
        > > them to do so. I would like to expand on that and try other
        things
        > > too. I would like to be able to talk over my chrousmates in a
        > > competition and not be penalized for it. (If we had dialogue) If
        I
        > > felt compelled to do a broadway musical for my quartet's or
        > > choruses's set for competition, then by golly, why not? The
        Sweet
        > > Adelines have huge numbers in many of their choruses. From what
        I
        > > see at their conventions, they are not bound by many of the
        rules
        > > that the BHS is. They seem to really have fun with it and take
        > > presentation to another level. Maybe we could actually learn
        > > something from our sisters in harmony and do the same.
        > >
        > > In closing, my brothers (and sisters), I love you. I love the
        > > society in which we are a part of. It is so great to sing with
        > > others at a high level to express ourselves. I am so honored to
        be a
        > > part of this great orginazation. It is a large part of
        > > what "defines" me. This message was not meant to offend, but
        rather
        > > just to offer a different view. I hope it will be recieved as
        such.
        > >
        > > Keep the whole world singing!
        > >
        > > Adam Haggart
        > > Saltaires Show Chorus Lead
        > > Wasatch Front Y.I.H Chairman
        > > Salt Lake City, UT
        > >
        >
      • Michael Bell
        John, I was not advocating an approach to membership or retention. I was questioning a hypothesis ( evolve or die ) that many seem to view as axiomatic. That
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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          John,

          I was not advocating an approach to membership or retention. I was questioning a
          hypothesis ("evolve or die") that many seem to view as axiomatic. That hypothesis doesn't
          make sense to me. If we were a vocal jazz organization with shrinking membership would
          we assume that by including gangsta rap, or madrigals, or barbershop we could reverse
          the trend?

          I'm not drawing lines in the sand. I'm not excluding anyone. I'm asking that we take a
          more thoughtful look at what we are preserving, and how best to accomplish our shared
          goal.

          Mike Bell



          --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "ausleadjohn" <newelljs@...> wrote:
          >
          > Well, this approach and attitude is sure to have new members showing
          > up in droves! Who could resist?
          >
          > Cue what I said in my last post about no need to draw lines in the
          > sand... try inclusion and sharing, instead of exclusion and division.
          >
          > I have an inkling about which way may be more successful for the
          > future.
          >
          > John.
          >
          >
          > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bell" <mike@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Wrong.
          > >
          > > Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as
          > renaissance madrigals are
          > > a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian
          > Chant (another a-
          > > cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result
          > from evolution of the
          > > chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or
          > Baroque Cantatas? No,
          > > a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is
          > not as big as the one for
          > > rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.
          > >
          > > The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and
          > obscure it's beauty with
          > > "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try
          > to present another
          > > argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't
          > hold up to examination
          > > in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data
          > showing that we can preserve
          > > the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach
          > Boys or any others,
          > > let's see it.
          > >
          > > Mike Bell
          > >
          >
        • super mario
          Mike, If you have data showing that we CAN T preserve the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others, let s see it.
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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            Mike,
            If you have data showing that we CAN'T preserve the barbershop style by including "simplistic" pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others, let's see it. Logical fallacies work both ways, not just where you want them to.

            Also, does anyone know of anyone advocating the elimination of the old songs? Didn't think so.

            Mario Hernandez-Gerety
            Bass - Vertigo
            2007 RMD 3rd Place Quartet
            2007 RMD Novice Quartet Champions

            PS As a member of the Westminster Chapter, I have personally seen OC Times ring the snot out of more old songs than you can shake a stick at. These guys can ring anything and ring it anywhere. They love the old songs and respect the roots of our style more than most people in this society. Just because they sing some new stuff and push the envelope doesn't mean they don't appreciate where it all came from.


            To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
            From: mike@...
            Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 19:23:49 +0000
            Subject: [bbshop] Re: Question of Suitability of Arrangement




















            Wrong.



            Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as renaissance madrigals are

            a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian Chant (another a-

            cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result from evolution of the

            chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or Baroque Cantatas? No,

            a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is not as big as the one for

            rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.



            The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and obscure it's beauty with

            "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try to present another

            argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't hold up to examination

            in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data showing that we can preserve

            the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others,

            let's see it.



























            _________________________________________________________________
            Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power.
            http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct

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          • Michael Bell
            Since Mario is bringing specific groups into this discussion about style, I ve answered his email privately. MB ... simplistic pop tunes by the Beach Boys or
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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              Since Mario is bringing specific groups into this discussion about
              style, I've answered his email privately.

              MB

              --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, super mario <supermario91@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Mike,
              > If you have data showing that we CAN'T preserve the barbershop style by including
              "simplistic" pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others, let's see it. Logical fallacies work
              both ways, not just where you want them to.
              >
              > Also, does anyone know of anyone advocating the elimination of the old songs? Didn't
              think so.
              >
              > Mario Hernandez-Gerety
              > Bass - Vertigo
              > 2007 RMD 3rd Place Quartet
              > 2007 RMD Novice Quartet Champions
              >
              > PS As a member of the Westminster Chapter, I have personally seen OC Times ring the
              snot out of more old songs than you can shake a stick at. These guys can ring anything
              and ring it anywhere. They love the old songs and respect the roots of our style more
              than most people in this society. Just because they sing some new stuff and push the
              envelope doesn't mean they don't appreciate where it all came from.
              >
              >
              > To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
              > From: mike@...
              > Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 19:23:49 +0000
              > Subject: [bbshop] Re: Question of Suitability of Arrangement
            • Shelley Herman
              ... You re right about OC Times. They sing everything well. What a lot of people have a problem with is: Singing unbarbershop (i.e. Beach boys) in CONTEST.
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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                > PS As a member of the Westminster Chapter, I have personally seen OC Times
                > ring the snot out of more old songs than you can shake a stick at. These guys
                > can ring anything and ring it anywhere. They love the old songs and respect
                > the roots of our style more than most people in this society. Just because
                > they sing some new stuff and push the envelope doesn't mean they don't
                > appreciate where it all came from.


                You're right about OC Times. They sing everything well. What a lot of
                people have a problem with is: Singing unbarbershop (i.e. Beach boys) in
                CONTEST.

                Sing what you want on shows, sing barbershop in CONTEST!

                Shelley Herman
              • MARQUIS652@aol.com
                Adam, Thanks for your contributions to this list. I too, started singing barbershop when I was young. (14 years old)... I was on the stage crrew at my high
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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                  Adam,

                  Thanks for your contributions to this list.

                  I too, started singing barbershop when I was young. (14 years old)...
                  I was on the stage crrew at my high school, heard the local chapter
                  and was hooked by THE SOUND. I only knew a couple of the songs.
                  THE SOUND is what got me excited.

                  I get excited by O.C.Times, Max Q, GHG, Interstate Rivals and many, many
                  others.
                  Not so much for what they sing, but for how they sing. THE SOUND.

                  Now that I am older and have my own kids who are singing barbershop,
                  I decided to ask them what they like most about barbershop. You know
                  what, it turns out to be THE SOUND, the fellowship and the chance to perform
                  and entertain and to make people happy with our music.

                  Keep singing harmony, I hope in the Barbershop style.

                  Jay Hawkins
                  Bass - Four Aces

                  and a few other groups and a PROUD Member
                  of The Southern Gateway Chorus of Cincinnati.



                  ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • willhamblet
                  Well, here s something a bit different: an old f*** who isn t a Kibber. I ve belonged to the Society for over 35 years. I initially joined because I heard
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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                    Well, here's something a bit different: an old f*** who isn't a
                    Kibber. I've belonged to the Society for over 35 years. I initially
                    joined because I heard The Beach Boys singing (a cappella) "Their
                    Hearts Were Full of Spring." I didn't know they had ripped it off
                    the Dick Reynolds arrangement for the Four Freshman. I just
                    thought, "Boy, would I love to do something like that." At the time,
                    the only thing that was "something like that" was SPEBSQSA. The
                    first Barbershop album I ever purchased was The Sidewinders… and my
                    favorite cut was Buzz Haeger's arrangement of "The Way You Look
                    Tonight" (definitely not something that would have passed the
                    Arrangement category in those days). I know there were a lot of my
                    contemporaries (early 70's) who enjoyed The Hi-Lo's much more than
                    The Buffalo Bills and my current all-time favorite BHS quartets
                    would probably be Keepsake, Gas House Gang & Realtime (none of them
                    particularly "oldies but goodies").

                    At any rate, I definitely prefer Barbershop (musically) NOW as
                    opposed to when I joined. On the other hand, I didn't care much for
                    what Aaron Dale did to The Beach Boys songs… but then I consider
                    Brian Wilson sacrosanct. And that's my problem!!!

                    Will
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