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Re: Question of Suitability of Arrangement

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  • ausleadjohn
    Hi, all. Yet again we move into a discussion about preservation and evolution. I appreciate everyone s desire to enjoy barbershop the way he or she likes it.
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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      Hi, all.

      Yet again we move into a discussion about preservation and evolution.

      I appreciate everyone's desire to enjoy barbershop the way he or she
      likes it. Therefore I think of barbershop as a big melting pot. The
      old music and traditions are all in the pot. Meanwhile new ideas are
      being added all the time. Some mix in well and are kept; others
      don't and are removed or altered.

      This is how barbershop began. It was very much improvised a cappella
      harmony singing. This experimental element has always been an
      integral part of barbershop since the artform first found a footing.

      I also believe barbershop is self-policing.

      Barbershop, like any form of music, evolves and changes and grows.
      New things are added to the melting pot. This happens regardless of
      how hard we try to control it, codify it, own it, stop it from
      evolving or just preserve it as it was.

      There is no need to draw a line in the sand so often.


      As for some things Jack Martin said...


      << Are we singers, or orators? >>

      This one I have to agree with. I applaud new ideas, but it ain't
      possible to speak in four-part harmony. A few comments in the middle
      of a song that enhance the entertainment or theme are fine with me,
      but speaking to set up a song... well, we're judged on the impact of
      the song and the singing and the presentation of those. Contest is
      about who does these things best, not who talks best.


      << Ya can't change historic events to suit your taste in music as
      time goes on. In time you evolve into something that no longer
      represents "what was!" ... I find it very disturbing that many of
      our Barbershoppers, young and old alike, no longer appreciate what
      barbershop was in the beginning, and how it became better defined as
      we matured into the 1950-1970 time frame. There was no evolution
      there! >>

      Hmmm... The barbershop leaders of the 1950-1970 time frame were good
      people and did a lot of great things. However, no leadership is
      perfect in any period of history. Looking at the history of
      barbershop from its very beginnings, through the formation of the
      Society, through the music sung in the 1940s, through the 1950-70
      era, through to today... when one sees the whole picture, innovation
      and experimentation and improvization and evolution have been
      hallmarks of barbershop music. In the 1950-70 era many great things
      were done and many great quartets sang, but the "maturing" also
      involved taking away chances to be innovative. The style was greatly
      restricted and constrained and made extraordinarily conservative.
      And like it or not, that was a form of evolution.

      There has always been evolution. The Society in the 1950s was very
      different from the Society in 1940. The singing styles evolved
      through the '40s, '50s and '60s. Just listen to the recordings.
      Maybe some people turn a blind eye.


      << It has turned off many of our "Pioneers of the Hobby" to the tune
      of several thousand past members. >>

      I thank the Pioneers for all they have done over many years. But
      there are new pioneers now. The torch gets passed on. Barbershop
      has always been about pioneering. That continues today. Some don't
      like what they hear, but they are focusing on only a few songs
      instead of seeing the entire melting pot. The old songs are still
      there and always will be. At some point in history, those old songs
      were new and they were added to the melting pot.

      Let the pioneering continue. It has always happened and always
      will. But, as I said, the barbershop world is self-policing. If it
      goes too far one way, the membership will let everyone know.
      However, it could be done more effectively, inclusively and
      harmoniously without drawing lines in the sand.

      I submit that it is better to share than to restrict. No one owns
      barbershop. And there is room for all, if ALL of us are willing.


      Cheers,
      John.
      www.realtimequartet.com
    • Michael Bell
      Wrong. Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as renaissance madrigals are a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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        Wrong.

        Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as renaissance madrigals are
        a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian Chant (another a-
        cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result from evolution of the
        chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or Baroque Cantatas? No,
        a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is not as big as the one for
        rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.

        The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and obscure it's beauty with
        "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try to present another
        argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't hold up to examination
        in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data showing that we can preserve
        the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others,
        let's see it.

        Mike Bell

        --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "i_sing_barbershop_music" <adamhaggart@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Barbershop music is a great american artform. But like any artform,
        > it evolves or it dies. Orchestral music progressed from renassiance
        > to romantic to 20th century and beyond. Rap has "evolved" from the
        > likes of Run DMC, DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince to 50 Cent,
        > Eminem, and Kanye West. (I realize this is not the kind of crowd I
        > am addressing, but I am just trying to make a point.) You take any
        > almost any musical artform and see that it has evolved over the
        > years to what it is today.
        >
        > However, with change, then comes resistance. Controversy. Open
        > retaliation. The audience detested Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" on
        > opening night, but later became one of the world's most performed
        > ballets. Many thought that Biz Markie was just making strange silly
        > noises, but now is known as the grandfather of beatboxing and has a
        > huge following. (especially across the pond) OC Times sang Beach Boy
        > tunes (incredibly well) and it turned the barbershop world against
        > each other. Is Surfer Girl barbershop? Does "Took the T-Bird Away"
        > have enough 7th chords? These songs aren't old enough...etc.
        >
        > I realize that our Society is actively engaged in the preservation
        > of our artform. But in order to survive, we must be actively
        > involved in the evolution of this wonderful "hobby". (I say hobby
        > with restraint as it is really an obsession for me and many others)
        > I love singing "Keep the Whole world Singing" at the end of every
        > chorus rehearsal. It really gets me hungry for tag singing and gives
        > me a great feeling that lasts the drive home. It is great to throw
        > down on a "My Wild Irish Rose" for singing valentines and just to
        > have fun. But I also really enjoy singing (attempting)Timmy
        > Waurick's part on Cruella Deville. Where can we find balance? Where
        > can I (and you) turn for peace?
        >
        > I guess what I am really trying to say is the world outgrew the
        > renassiance period. I don't want the "world" to continue to outgrow
        > barbershop harmony. Most people think of four old guys in striped
        > shirts and hats singing barbershop, and when they see OC Times,
        > Vocal Spectrum, Realtime, or even the Westminster Chorus (to name a
        > few) they are suprised and enthralled. They are turned on to our
        > artform and want to be a part of it, even if it is just as a
        > spectator.
        >
        > I understand that many of our older members have turned away from
        > barbershop because of the continual distancing from what is
        > regaurded as "traditional". But you can't tell me that you can sit
        > down and listen to the Westminster Chorus sing "Their Hearts were
        > full of Spring" and not get a little teary. Or that you can't enjoy
        > Vocal Spectrum and Gas House Gang just ripping the head off of
        > Scarbourough Fair. Regardless of what age you are. I hope to not
        > offend too many by saying, "So what?" So what if there aren't 75 7th
        > chords and the song the arrangement was based on was created in the
        > 80's, 90's, or heaven forbid, this decade? As long as it is sung
        > well, barbershop is great...no matter how old the song (or
        > performer) is.
        >
        > As a young person in barbershop, I promise that I will never stop
        > singing "the old songs." Never. There is too much juicy goodness in
        > them to do so. I would like to expand on that and try other things
        > too. I would like to be able to talk over my chrousmates in a
        > competition and not be penalized for it. (If we had dialogue) If I
        > felt compelled to do a broadway musical for my quartet's or
        > choruses's set for competition, then by golly, why not? The Sweet
        > Adelines have huge numbers in many of their choruses. From what I
        > see at their conventions, they are not bound by many of the rules
        > that the BHS is. They seem to really have fun with it and take
        > presentation to another level. Maybe we could actually learn
        > something from our sisters in harmony and do the same.
        >
        > In closing, my brothers (and sisters), I love you. I love the
        > society in which we are a part of. It is so great to sing with
        > others at a high level to express ourselves. I am so honored to be a
        > part of this great orginazation. It is a large part of
        > what "defines" me. This message was not meant to offend, but rather
        > just to offer a different view. I hope it will be recieved as such.
        >
        > Keep the whole world singing!
        >
        > Adam Haggart
        > Saltaires Show Chorus Lead
        > Wasatch Front Y.I.H Chairman
        > Salt Lake City, UT
        >
      • ausleadjohn
        Well, this approach and attitude is sure to have new members showing up in droves! Who could resist? Cue what I said in my last post about no need to draw
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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          Well, this approach and attitude is sure to have new members showing
          up in droves! Who could resist?

          Cue what I said in my last post about no need to draw lines in the
          sand... try inclusion and sharing, instead of exclusion and division.

          I have an inkling about which way may be more successful for the
          future.

          John.


          --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bell" <mike@...> wrote:
          >
          > Wrong.
          >
          > Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as
          renaissance madrigals are
          > a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian
          Chant (another a-
          > cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result
          from evolution of the
          > chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or
          Baroque Cantatas? No,
          > a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is
          not as big as the one for
          > rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.
          >
          > The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and
          obscure it's beauty with
          > "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try
          to present another
          > argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't
          hold up to examination
          > in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data
          showing that we can preserve
          > the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach
          Boys or any others,
          > let's see it.
          >
          > Mike Bell
          >
        • i_sing_barbershop_music
          Yes, it is true that the Benedictine monks of Santo Domingo de Silos did have a triple platinum album in the early to mid ninteies, followed by a less
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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            Yes, it is true that the Benedictine monks of Santo Domingo de Silos
            did have a triple platinum album in the early to mid ninteies,
            followed by a less succsessful sequel. But in the world of gregorian
            chants or a cappella music in general, it is quite the anomaly.
            Also, the chants were evolutionary compared to chants in the "old
            days", but that is neither here nor there.

            Really, if you want to get more people interested in barbershop and
            keep our hobby alive, the approach is simple. Sing songs that people
            want to hear and sing them well. We have a hobby that is AWESOME and
            should be much more marketable then it is, and the "four guys in
            striped shirts and hats" was good back in the day, but doesn't work
            as well anymore. I like the fact the the society has become much
            more welcoming towards younger members, because for the longest
            time, they weren't. At least that is my perception.

            This is ALL just a matter of perception. Everything changes over
            time, and some are just more resistent to change than others.

            Adam Haggart


            --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bell" <mike@...> wrote:
            >
            > Wrong.
            >
            > Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as
            renaissance madrigals are
            > a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian
            Chant (another a-
            > cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result
            from evolution of the
            > chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or
            Baroque Cantatas? No,
            > a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is
            not as big as the one for
            > rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.
            >
            > The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and
            obscure it's beauty with
            > "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try
            to present another
            > argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't
            hold up to examination
            > in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data
            showing that we can preserve
            > the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the
            Beach Boys or any others,
            > let's see it.
            >
            > Mike Bell
            >
            > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "i_sing_barbershop_music"
            <adamhaggart@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Barbershop music is a great american artform. But like any
            artform,
            > > it evolves or it dies. Orchestral music progressed from
            renassiance
            > > to romantic to 20th century and beyond. Rap has "evolved" from
            the
            > > likes of Run DMC, DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince to 50 Cent,
            > > Eminem, and Kanye West. (I realize this is not the kind of crowd
            I
            > > am addressing, but I am just trying to make a point.) You take
            any
            > > almost any musical artform and see that it has evolved over the
            > > years to what it is today.
            > >
            > > However, with change, then comes resistance. Controversy. Open
            > > retaliation. The audience detested Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring"
            on
            > > opening night, but later became one of the world's most
            performed
            > > ballets. Many thought that Biz Markie was just making strange
            silly
            > > noises, but now is known as the grandfather of beatboxing and
            has a
            > > huge following. (especially across the pond) OC Times sang Beach
            Boy
            > > tunes (incredibly well) and it turned the barbershop world
            against
            > > each other. Is Surfer Girl barbershop? Does "Took the T-Bird
            Away"
            > > have enough 7th chords? These songs aren't old enough...etc.
            > >
            > > I realize that our Society is actively engaged in the
            preservation
            > > of our artform. But in order to survive, we must be actively
            > > involved in the evolution of this wonderful "hobby". (I say
            hobby
            > > with restraint as it is really an obsession for me and many
            others)
            > > I love singing "Keep the Whole world Singing" at the end of
            every
            > > chorus rehearsal. It really gets me hungry for tag singing and
            gives
            > > me a great feeling that lasts the drive home. It is great to
            throw
            > > down on a "My Wild Irish Rose" for singing valentines and just
            to
            > > have fun. But I also really enjoy singing (attempting)Timmy
            > > Waurick's part on Cruella Deville. Where can we find balance?
            Where
            > > can I (and you) turn for peace?
            > >
            > > I guess what I am really trying to say is the world outgrew the
            > > renassiance period. I don't want the "world" to continue to
            outgrow
            > > barbershop harmony. Most people think of four old guys in
            striped
            > > shirts and hats singing barbershop, and when they see OC Times,
            > > Vocal Spectrum, Realtime, or even the Westminster Chorus (to
            name a
            > > few) they are suprised and enthralled. They are turned on to our
            > > artform and want to be a part of it, even if it is just as a
            > > spectator.
            > >
            > > I understand that many of our older members have turned away
            from
            > > barbershop because of the continual distancing from what is
            > > regaurded as "traditional". But you can't tell me that you can
            sit
            > > down and listen to the Westminster Chorus sing "Their Hearts
            were
            > > full of Spring" and not get a little teary. Or that you can't
            enjoy
            > > Vocal Spectrum and Gas House Gang just ripping the head off of
            > > Scarbourough Fair. Regardless of what age you are. I hope to not
            > > offend too many by saying, "So what?" So what if there aren't 75
            7th
            > > chords and the song the arrangement was based on was created in
            the
            > > 80's, 90's, or heaven forbid, this decade? As long as it is sung
            > > well, barbershop is great...no matter how old the song (or
            > > performer) is.
            > >
            > > As a young person in barbershop, I promise that I will never
            stop
            > > singing "the old songs." Never. There is too much juicy goodness
            in
            > > them to do so. I would like to expand on that and try other
            things
            > > too. I would like to be able to talk over my chrousmates in a
            > > competition and not be penalized for it. (If we had dialogue) If
            I
            > > felt compelled to do a broadway musical for my quartet's or
            > > choruses's set for competition, then by golly, why not? The
            Sweet
            > > Adelines have huge numbers in many of their choruses. From what
            I
            > > see at their conventions, they are not bound by many of the
            rules
            > > that the BHS is. They seem to really have fun with it and take
            > > presentation to another level. Maybe we could actually learn
            > > something from our sisters in harmony and do the same.
            > >
            > > In closing, my brothers (and sisters), I love you. I love the
            > > society in which we are a part of. It is so great to sing with
            > > others at a high level to express ourselves. I am so honored to
            be a
            > > part of this great orginazation. It is a large part of
            > > what "defines" me. This message was not meant to offend, but
            rather
            > > just to offer a different view. I hope it will be recieved as
            such.
            > >
            > > Keep the whole world singing!
            > >
            > > Adam Haggart
            > > Saltaires Show Chorus Lead
            > > Wasatch Front Y.I.H Chairman
            > > Salt Lake City, UT
            > >
            >
          • Lauren House
            Well stated, excellent post on the topic! Harmoniously, in full agreement. Lauren House Reno, Nevada _____ From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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              Well stated, excellent post on the topic!

              Harmoniously, in full agreement.

              Lauren House
              Reno, Nevada

              _____

              From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              i_sing_barbershop_music
              Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 9:45 AM
              To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [bbshop] Re: Question of Suitability of Arrangement



              Barbershop music is a great american artform. But like any artform,
              it evolves or it dies. Orchestral music progressed from renassiance
              to romantic to 20th century and beyond. Rap has "evolved" from the
              likes of Run DMC, DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince to 50 Cent,
              Eminem, and Kanye West. (I realize this is not the kind of crowd I
              am addressing, but I am just trying to make a point.) You take any
              almost any musical artform and see that it has evolved over the
              years to what it is today.

              However, with change, then comes resistance. Controversy. Open
              retaliation. The audience detested Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" on
              opening night, but later became one of the world's most performed
              ballets. Many thought that Biz Markie was just making strange silly
              noises, but now is known as the grandfather of beatboxing and has a
              huge following. (especially across the pond) OC Times sang Beach Boy
              tunes (incredibly well) and it turned the barbershop world against
              each other. Is Surfer Girl barbershop? Does "Took the T-Bird Away"
              have enough 7th chords? These songs aren't old enough...etc.

              I realize that our Society is actively engaged in the preservation
              of our artform. But in order to survive, we must be actively
              involved in the evolution of this wonderful "hobby". (I say hobby
              with restraint as it is really an obsession for me and many others)
              I love singing "Keep the Whole world Singing" at the end of every
              chorus rehearsal. It really gets me hungry for tag singing and gives
              me a great feeling that lasts the drive home. It is great to throw
              down on a "My Wild Irish Rose" for singing valentines and just to
              have fun. But I also really enjoy singing (attempting)Timmy
              Waurick's part on Cruella Deville. Where can we find balance? Where
              can I (and you) turn for peace?

              I guess what I am really trying to say is the world outgrew the
              renassiance period. I don't want the "world" to continue to outgrow
              barbershop harmony. Most people think of four old guys in striped
              shirts and hats singing barbershop, and when they see OC Times,
              Vocal Spectrum, Realtime, or even the Westminster Chorus (to name a
              few) they are suprised and enthralled. They are turned on to our
              artform and want to be a part of it, even if it is just as a
              spectator.

              I understand that many of our older members have turned away from
              barbershop because of the continual distancing from what is
              regaurded as "traditional". But you can't tell me that you can sit
              down and listen to the Westminster Chorus sing "Their Hearts were
              full of Spring" and not get a little teary. Or that you can't enjoy
              Vocal Spectrum and Gas House Gang just ripping the head off of
              Scarbourough Fair. Regardless of what age you are. I hope to not
              offend too many by saying, "So what?" So what if there aren't 75 7th
              chords and the song the arrangement was based on was created in the
              80's, 90's, or heaven forbid, this decade? As long as it is sung
              well, barbershop is great...no matter how old the song (or
              performer) is.

              As a young person in barbershop, I promise that I will never stop
              singing "the old songs." Never. There is too much juicy goodness in
              them to do so. I would like to expand on that and try other things
              too. I would like to be able to talk over my chrousmates in a
              competition and not be penalized for it. (If we had dialogue) If I
              felt compelled to do a broadway musical for my quartet's or
              choruses's set for competition, then by golly, why not? The Sweet
              Adelines have huge numbers in many of their choruses. From what I
              see at their conventions, they are not bound by many of the rules
              that the BHS is. They seem to really have fun with it and take
              presentation to another level. Maybe we could actually learn
              something from our sisters in harmony and do the same.

              In closing, my brothers (and sisters), I love you. I love the
              society in which we are a part of. It is so great to sing with
              others at a high level to express ourselves. I am so honored to be a
              part of this great orginazation. It is a large part of
              what "defines" me. This message was not meant to offend, but rather
              just to offer a different view. I hope it will be recieved as such.

              Keep the whole world singing!

              Adam Haggart
              Saltaires Show Chorus Lead
              Wasatch Front Y.I.H Chairman
              Salt Lake City, UT



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael Bell
              John, I was not advocating an approach to membership or retention. I was questioning a hypothesis ( evolve or die ) that many seem to view as axiomatic. That
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                John,

                I was not advocating an approach to membership or retention. I was questioning a
                hypothesis ("evolve or die") that many seem to view as axiomatic. That hypothesis doesn't
                make sense to me. If we were a vocal jazz organization with shrinking membership would
                we assume that by including gangsta rap, or madrigals, or barbershop we could reverse
                the trend?

                I'm not drawing lines in the sand. I'm not excluding anyone. I'm asking that we take a
                more thoughtful look at what we are preserving, and how best to accomplish our shared
                goal.

                Mike Bell



                --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "ausleadjohn" <newelljs@...> wrote:
                >
                > Well, this approach and attitude is sure to have new members showing
                > up in droves! Who could resist?
                >
                > Cue what I said in my last post about no need to draw lines in the
                > sand... try inclusion and sharing, instead of exclusion and division.
                >
                > I have an inkling about which way may be more successful for the
                > future.
                >
                > John.
                >
                >
                > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bell" <mike@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Wrong.
                > >
                > > Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as
                > renaissance madrigals are
                > > a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian
                > Chant (another a-
                > > cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result
                > from evolution of the
                > > chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or
                > Baroque Cantatas? No,
                > > a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is
                > not as big as the one for
                > > rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.
                > >
                > > The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and
                > obscure it's beauty with
                > > "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try
                > to present another
                > > argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't
                > hold up to examination
                > > in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data
                > showing that we can preserve
                > > the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach
                > Boys or any others,
                > > let's see it.
                > >
                > > Mike Bell
                > >
                >
              • super mario
                Mike, If you have data showing that we CAN T preserve the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others, let s see it.
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Mike,
                  If you have data showing that we CAN'T preserve the barbershop style by including "simplistic" pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others, let's see it. Logical fallacies work both ways, not just where you want them to.

                  Also, does anyone know of anyone advocating the elimination of the old songs? Didn't think so.

                  Mario Hernandez-Gerety
                  Bass - Vertigo
                  2007 RMD 3rd Place Quartet
                  2007 RMD Novice Quartet Champions

                  PS As a member of the Westminster Chapter, I have personally seen OC Times ring the snot out of more old songs than you can shake a stick at. These guys can ring anything and ring it anywhere. They love the old songs and respect the roots of our style more than most people in this society. Just because they sing some new stuff and push the envelope doesn't mean they don't appreciate where it all came from.


                  To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                  From: mike@...
                  Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 19:23:49 +0000
                  Subject: [bbshop] Re: Question of Suitability of Arrangement




















                  Wrong.



                  Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as renaissance madrigals are

                  a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian Chant (another a-

                  cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result from evolution of the

                  chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or Baroque Cantatas? No,

                  a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is not as big as the one for

                  rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.



                  The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and obscure it's beauty with

                  "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try to present another

                  argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't hold up to examination

                  in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data showing that we can preserve

                  the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others,

                  let's see it.



























                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power.
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                • Michael Bell
                  Since Mario is bringing specific groups into this discussion about style, I ve answered his email privately. MB ... simplistic pop tunes by the Beach Boys or
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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                    Since Mario is bringing specific groups into this discussion about
                    style, I've answered his email privately.

                    MB

                    --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, super mario <supermario91@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Mike,
                    > If you have data showing that we CAN'T preserve the barbershop style by including
                    "simplistic" pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others, let's see it. Logical fallacies work
                    both ways, not just where you want them to.
                    >
                    > Also, does anyone know of anyone advocating the elimination of the old songs? Didn't
                    think so.
                    >
                    > Mario Hernandez-Gerety
                    > Bass - Vertigo
                    > 2007 RMD 3rd Place Quartet
                    > 2007 RMD Novice Quartet Champions
                    >
                    > PS As a member of the Westminster Chapter, I have personally seen OC Times ring the
                    snot out of more old songs than you can shake a stick at. These guys can ring anything
                    and ring it anywhere. They love the old songs and respect the roots of our style more
                    than most people in this society. Just because they sing some new stuff and push the
                    envelope doesn't mean they don't appreciate where it all came from.
                    >
                    >
                    > To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: mike@...
                    > Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 19:23:49 +0000
                    > Subject: [bbshop] Re: Question of Suitability of Arrangement
                  • Shelley Herman
                    ... You re right about OC Times. They sing everything well. What a lot of people have a problem with is: Singing unbarbershop (i.e. Beach boys) in CONTEST.
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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                      > PS As a member of the Westminster Chapter, I have personally seen OC Times
                      > ring the snot out of more old songs than you can shake a stick at. These guys
                      > can ring anything and ring it anywhere. They love the old songs and respect
                      > the roots of our style more than most people in this society. Just because
                      > they sing some new stuff and push the envelope doesn't mean they don't
                      > appreciate where it all came from.


                      You're right about OC Times. They sing everything well. What a lot of
                      people have a problem with is: Singing unbarbershop (i.e. Beach boys) in
                      CONTEST.

                      Sing what you want on shows, sing barbershop in CONTEST!

                      Shelley Herman
                    • MARQUIS652@aol.com
                      Adam, Thanks for your contributions to this list. I too, started singing barbershop when I was young. (14 years old)... I was on the stage crrew at my high
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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                        Adam,

                        Thanks for your contributions to this list.

                        I too, started singing barbershop when I was young. (14 years old)...
                        I was on the stage crrew at my high school, heard the local chapter
                        and was hooked by THE SOUND. I only knew a couple of the songs.
                        THE SOUND is what got me excited.

                        I get excited by O.C.Times, Max Q, GHG, Interstate Rivals and many, many
                        others.
                        Not so much for what they sing, but for how they sing. THE SOUND.

                        Now that I am older and have my own kids who are singing barbershop,
                        I decided to ask them what they like most about barbershop. You know
                        what, it turns out to be THE SOUND, the fellowship and the chance to perform
                        and entertain and to make people happy with our music.

                        Keep singing harmony, I hope in the Barbershop style.

                        Jay Hawkins
                        Bass - Four Aces

                        and a few other groups and a PROUD Member
                        of The Southern Gateway Chorus of Cincinnati.



                        ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


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                      • willhamblet
                        Well, here s something a bit different: an old f*** who isn t a Kibber. I ve belonged to the Society for over 35 years. I initially joined because I heard
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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                          Well, here's something a bit different: an old f*** who isn't a
                          Kibber. I've belonged to the Society for over 35 years. I initially
                          joined because I heard The Beach Boys singing (a cappella) "Their
                          Hearts Were Full of Spring." I didn't know they had ripped it off
                          the Dick Reynolds arrangement for the Four Freshman. I just
                          thought, "Boy, would I love to do something like that." At the time,
                          the only thing that was "something like that" was SPEBSQSA. The
                          first Barbershop album I ever purchased was The Sidewinders… and my
                          favorite cut was Buzz Haeger's arrangement of "The Way You Look
                          Tonight" (definitely not something that would have passed the
                          Arrangement category in those days). I know there were a lot of my
                          contemporaries (early 70's) who enjoyed The Hi-Lo's much more than
                          The Buffalo Bills and my current all-time favorite BHS quartets
                          would probably be Keepsake, Gas House Gang & Realtime (none of them
                          particularly "oldies but goodies").

                          At any rate, I definitely prefer Barbershop (musically) NOW as
                          opposed to when I joined. On the other hand, I didn't care much for
                          what Aaron Dale did to The Beach Boys songs… but then I consider
                          Brian Wilson sacrosanct. And that's my problem!!!

                          Will
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