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Re: [bbshop] RE: Question of Suitability of Arrangement

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  • Jack W. Martin
    Hi Steve, I was one that commented on your original post regarding the music judges responding to your request. I would like to make comment again, in maybe
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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      Hi Steve,

      I was one that commented on your original post regarding the music
      judges responding to your request. I would like to make comment
      again, in maybe a more positive way.

      First I agree that, we owe a debt of gratitude for the time and
      effort our judges put into making this hobby all that it is. I, as
      many of us, have some very close friends in the judging system. (high
      Raymond, Jim, Kevin) Every one I know is a man of integrity, although
      I do not agree with them on several things, at times.

      IMHO, what is wrong with our judging system is, certain aspects of the
      current rules and the influence our judging community and arrangers
      has had on the development of these rules. Having read the definition
      of the categories, I take exception to certain aspects of the music
      category and the presentation categories. In some cases it is what is
      written and sometimes, what is not there.

      I strongly disagree with the presentation category where in it allows
      talking. The first time talking occurred in an International contest
      that I can remember, with out being DQ'd, was in 1985. Some of you
      will remember this and for those of you who don't, check it out with
      the judges of the stage presence/presentation category during that
      time frame. As I remember,the stage presence judges made the decision,
      that the talking that took place, fit into the theme of the
      performance and was deemed OK, even though it was in violation of the
      rules, at that time.

      Well, you can see what has happened since that time. We migrated from
      small talk and jokes, to fully setting up the scene for a performance,
      as was done in a recent International contest. Are we singers, or
      orators?

      Also I believe the presentation category rules outlaw patriotic and
      religious music. This is a tough one as some of our accepted songs,
      border line on being prayers. Maybe a stretch, but I believe, many
      would agree.

      My definition of "The Old Songs" are not necessarily ones that were of
      any era. Although much of the music that was written in the late
      1800's to say 1930's, seemed to lend themselves well to barbershop
      harmony. Sure, there have been songs written in later years that lend
      themselves to good barbershop presentation but many more just don't
      fit the style in my judgement.

      One of my criteria for accepting a song as a good barbershop vehicle
      is, "Is it a song that might have been sung in a barbershop in the
      first half of the 20th century? Is it one that might have been
      woodshedable. (Is that a word?) If I can't imagine this, then the
      song becomes very suspect to me. Is this good criteria? You may not
      agree if you are not into preservation. Preservation just don't tag
      along behind the evolution route. Ya can't change historic events to
      suit your taste in music as time goes on. In time you evolve into
      something that no longer represents "what was!"

      Can you imagine, Orange Colored Sky being sung in a barbershop of the
      early 20th century? I can't! Or some of the other edge of the
      envelope and beyond music being done in contest without severe
      penalty. "Daddy Took Her T Bird Away" took second place in Denver.
      What have we become?

      I often blame the music category for the type music we allow without
      severe penalty, because in the 4 and 5 category judging system, this
      was mostly covered by the arrangement category. Also the best
      barbershop music was somewhat controlled by what Dave Stevens laid out
      in his presentation of "What Are We Trying to Preserve?" What Dave
      said was being practiced for many years prior to him putting it into
      such an eloquent address.

      I find it very disturbing that many of our Barbershoppers, young and
      old alike, no longer appreciate what barbershop was in the beginning,
      and how it became better defined as we matured into the 1950-1970 time
      frame. There was no evolution there! It was a shaping of what we
      started with, to a more pleasurable, style. This shaping allowed our
      wonderful hobby to become a spectator sport as well as a participant
      sport. One that all barbershoppers could enjoy, both singer and
      audience. Ya think that our older music is obsolete? Trying singing
      "Dance My Way To Dixie Land" arranged by Brian Beck and sung at
      International in 1970 by the Doo Dads. (8th place, I believe) You
      will knock the socks off your audience with this Old Song!

      Ya gotta remember that, what we sing is what we preserve. Some do
      not seem to understand this fact.

      Our recent years have truly been a change in our music that strokes
      the ego's of the arrangers and more talented younger singers. It has
      done very little to enhance Barbershop. It has turned off many of our
      "Pioneers of the Hobby" to the tune of several thousand past members.

      All reading this post are encouraged to visit the November, 2007 issue
      of the Jacksonville, FL, Big 'O' chapter bulletin. "OrangeSpiel
      "(http://www.bigorangechorus.com/NewsArchive.htm.) It has a great
      article written by Tom Dames, lead/tenor of the Great MAD quartet the
      Easternaires.

      Thanks for the opening Steve to give the judges credit for what they
      do and the opportunity to vent a bit and maybe gather up a supporter
      or two!

      In Harmony
      Jack Martin
      38 year SPEBSQSA member
      strong "Pioneer/BQPA" supporter






      On 11/1/07, Steve Jacobsen <stevej@...> wrote:
      > I didn't realize my request to get feedback from the music judging community would prompt so much traffic, but I think it's great that it did, because it gives me a chance to say "Thanks" to all of them who responded (several) in a public forum. Everyone who responded was within 3 points of each other with their thoughts and comments, so I would certainly say they have all been properly calibrated for this cycle! Seriously, I've always appreciated judges' comments, even when it's hard to hear what they have to say, as I know they only have my interests and the interests of this great hobby at heart. It's easy and often fun to rail at them, or even disagree with them, but most assuredly we all owe them a debt of gratitude for the time and effort our judges put into making this hobby all that it is. Thanks, guys!
      > Steve Jacobsen
      > Tallahassee, FL
      > Bari - PBQ
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • i_sing_barbershop_music
      Barbershop music is a great american artform. But like any artform, it evolves or it dies. Orchestral music progressed from renassiance to romantic to 20th
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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        Barbershop music is a great american artform. But like any artform,
        it evolves or it dies. Orchestral music progressed from renassiance
        to romantic to 20th century and beyond. Rap has "evolved" from the
        likes of Run DMC, DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince to 50 Cent,
        Eminem, and Kanye West. (I realize this is not the kind of crowd I
        am addressing, but I am just trying to make a point.) You take any
        almost any musical artform and see that it has evolved over the
        years to what it is today.

        However, with change, then comes resistance. Controversy. Open
        retaliation. The audience detested Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" on
        opening night, but later became one of the world's most performed
        ballets. Many thought that Biz Markie was just making strange silly
        noises, but now is known as the grandfather of beatboxing and has a
        huge following. (especially across the pond) OC Times sang Beach Boy
        tunes (incredibly well) and it turned the barbershop world against
        each other. Is Surfer Girl barbershop? Does "Took the T-Bird Away"
        have enough 7th chords? These songs aren't old enough...etc.

        I realize that our Society is actively engaged in the preservation
        of our artform. But in order to survive, we must be actively
        involved in the evolution of this wonderful "hobby". (I say hobby
        with restraint as it is really an obsession for me and many others)
        I love singing "Keep the Whole world Singing" at the end of every
        chorus rehearsal. It really gets me hungry for tag singing and gives
        me a great feeling that lasts the drive home. It is great to throw
        down on a "My Wild Irish Rose" for singing valentines and just to
        have fun. But I also really enjoy singing (attempting)Timmy
        Waurick's part on Cruella Deville. Where can we find balance? Where
        can I (and you) turn for peace?

        I guess what I am really trying to say is the world outgrew the
        renassiance period. I don't want the "world" to continue to outgrow
        barbershop harmony. Most people think of four old guys in striped
        shirts and hats singing barbershop, and when they see OC Times,
        Vocal Spectrum, Realtime, or even the Westminster Chorus (to name a
        few) they are suprised and enthralled. They are turned on to our
        artform and want to be a part of it, even if it is just as a
        spectator.

        I understand that many of our older members have turned away from
        barbershop because of the continual distancing from what is
        regaurded as "traditional". But you can't tell me that you can sit
        down and listen to the Westminster Chorus sing "Their Hearts were
        full of Spring" and not get a little teary. Or that you can't enjoy
        Vocal Spectrum and Gas House Gang just ripping the head off of
        Scarbourough Fair. Regardless of what age you are. I hope to not
        offend too many by saying, "So what?" So what if there aren't 75 7th
        chords and the song the arrangement was based on was created in the
        80's, 90's, or heaven forbid, this decade? As long as it is sung
        well, barbershop is great...no matter how old the song (or
        performer) is.

        As a young person in barbershop, I promise that I will never stop
        singing "the old songs." Never. There is too much juicy goodness in
        them to do so. I would like to expand on that and try other things
        too. I would like to be able to talk over my chrousmates in a
        competition and not be penalized for it. (If we had dialogue) If I
        felt compelled to do a broadway musical for my quartet's or
        choruses's set for competition, then by golly, why not? The Sweet
        Adelines have huge numbers in many of their choruses. From what I
        see at their conventions, they are not bound by many of the rules
        that the BHS is. They seem to really have fun with it and take
        presentation to another level. Maybe we could actually learn
        something from our sisters in harmony and do the same.

        In closing, my brothers (and sisters), I love you. I love the
        society in which we are a part of. It is so great to sing with
        others at a high level to express ourselves. I am so honored to be a
        part of this great orginazation. It is a large part of
        what "defines" me. This message was not meant to offend, but rather
        just to offer a different view. I hope it will be recieved as such.

        Keep the whole world singing!

        Adam Haggart
        Saltaires Show Chorus Lead
        Wasatch Front Y.I.H Chairman
        Salt Lake City, UT
      • Joe Johnson
        Bravo!!! Thanks, Adam, for expressing so eloquently what so many of us feel. i_sing_barbershop_music wrote: Barbershop music is a great
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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          Bravo!!! Thanks, Adam, for expressing so eloquently what so many of us feel.


          i_sing_barbershop_music <adamhaggart@...> wrote:

          Barbershop music is a great american artform. But like any artform,
          it evolves or it dies. Orchestral music progressed from renassiance
          to romantic to 20th century and beyond. Rap has "evolved" from the
          likes of Run DMC, DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince to 50 Cent,
          Eminem, and Kanye West. (I realize this is not the kind of crowd I
          am addressing, but I am just trying to make a point.) You take any
          almost any musical artform and see that it has evolved over the
          years to what it is today.

          However, with change, then comes resistance. Controversy. Open
          retaliation. The audience detested Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" on
          opening night, but later became one of the world's most performed
          ballets. Many thought that Biz Markie was just making strange silly
          noises, but now is known as the grandfather of beatboxing and has a
          huge following. (especially across the pond) OC Times sang Beach Boy
          tunes (incredibly well) and it turned the barbershop world against
          each other. Is Surfer Girl barbershop? Does "Took the T-Bird Away"
          have enough 7th chords? These songs aren't old enough...etc.

          I realize that our Society is actively engaged in the preservation
          of our artform. But in order to survive, we must be actively
          involved in the evolution of this wonderful "hobby". (I say hobby
          with restraint as it is really an obsession for me and many others)
          I love singing "Keep the Whole world Singing" at the end of every
          chorus rehearsal. It really gets me hungry for tag singing and gives
          me a great feeling that lasts the drive home. It is great to throw
          down on a "My Wild Irish Rose" for singing valentines and just to
          have fun. But I also really enjoy singing (attempting)Timmy
          Waurick's part on Cruella Deville. Where can we find balance? Where
          can I (and you) turn for peace?

          I guess what I am really trying to say is the world outgrew the
          renassiance period. I don't want the "world" to continue to outgrow
          barbershop harmony. Most people think of four old guys in striped
          shirts and hats singing barbershop, and when they see OC Times,
          Vocal Spectrum, Realtime, or even the Westminster Chorus (to name a
          few) they are suprised and enthralled. They are turned on to our
          artform and want to be a part of it, even if it is just as a
          spectator.

          I understand that many of our older members have turned away from
          barbershop because of the continual distancing from what is
          regaurded as "traditional". But you can't tell me that you can sit
          down and listen to the Westminster Chorus sing "Their Hearts were
          full of Spring" and not get a little teary. Or that you can't enjoy
          Vocal Spectrum and Gas House Gang just ripping the head off of
          Scarbourough Fair. Regardless of what age you are. I hope to not
          offend too many by saying, "So what?" So what if there aren't 75 7th
          chords and the song the arrangement was based on was created in the
          80's, 90's, or heaven forbid, this decade? As long as it is sung
          well, barbershop is great...no matter how old the song (or
          performer) is.

          As a young person in barbershop, I promise that I will never stop
          singing "the old songs." Never. There is too much juicy goodness in
          them to do so. I would like to expand on that and try other things
          too. I would like to be able to talk over my chrousmates in a
          competition and not be penalized for it. (If we had dialogue) If I
          felt compelled to do a broadway musical for my quartet's or
          choruses's set for competition, then by golly, why not? The Sweet
          Adelines have huge numbers in many of their choruses. From what I
          see at their conventions, they are not bound by many of the rules
          that the BHS is. They seem to really have fun with it and take
          presentation to another level. Maybe we could actually learn
          something from our sisters in harmony and do the same.

          In closing, my brothers (and sisters), I love you. I love the
          society in which we are a part of. It is so great to sing with
          others at a high level to express ourselves. I am so honored to be a
          part of this great orginazation. It is a large part of
          what "defines" me. This message was not meant to offend, but rather
          just to offer a different view. I hope it will be recieved as such.

          Keep the whole world singing!

          Adam Haggart
          Saltaires Show Chorus Lead
          Wasatch Front Y.I.H Chairman
          Salt Lake City, UT






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • ausleadjohn
          Hi, all. Yet again we move into a discussion about preservation and evolution. I appreciate everyone s desire to enjoy barbershop the way he or she likes it.
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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            Hi, all.

            Yet again we move into a discussion about preservation and evolution.

            I appreciate everyone's desire to enjoy barbershop the way he or she
            likes it. Therefore I think of barbershop as a big melting pot. The
            old music and traditions are all in the pot. Meanwhile new ideas are
            being added all the time. Some mix in well and are kept; others
            don't and are removed or altered.

            This is how barbershop began. It was very much improvised a cappella
            harmony singing. This experimental element has always been an
            integral part of barbershop since the artform first found a footing.

            I also believe barbershop is self-policing.

            Barbershop, like any form of music, evolves and changes and grows.
            New things are added to the melting pot. This happens regardless of
            how hard we try to control it, codify it, own it, stop it from
            evolving or just preserve it as it was.

            There is no need to draw a line in the sand so often.


            As for some things Jack Martin said...


            << Are we singers, or orators? >>

            This one I have to agree with. I applaud new ideas, but it ain't
            possible to speak in four-part harmony. A few comments in the middle
            of a song that enhance the entertainment or theme are fine with me,
            but speaking to set up a song... well, we're judged on the impact of
            the song and the singing and the presentation of those. Contest is
            about who does these things best, not who talks best.


            << Ya can't change historic events to suit your taste in music as
            time goes on. In time you evolve into something that no longer
            represents "what was!" ... I find it very disturbing that many of
            our Barbershoppers, young and old alike, no longer appreciate what
            barbershop was in the beginning, and how it became better defined as
            we matured into the 1950-1970 time frame. There was no evolution
            there! >>

            Hmmm... The barbershop leaders of the 1950-1970 time frame were good
            people and did a lot of great things. However, no leadership is
            perfect in any period of history. Looking at the history of
            barbershop from its very beginnings, through the formation of the
            Society, through the music sung in the 1940s, through the 1950-70
            era, through to today... when one sees the whole picture, innovation
            and experimentation and improvization and evolution have been
            hallmarks of barbershop music. In the 1950-70 era many great things
            were done and many great quartets sang, but the "maturing" also
            involved taking away chances to be innovative. The style was greatly
            restricted and constrained and made extraordinarily conservative.
            And like it or not, that was a form of evolution.

            There has always been evolution. The Society in the 1950s was very
            different from the Society in 1940. The singing styles evolved
            through the '40s, '50s and '60s. Just listen to the recordings.
            Maybe some people turn a blind eye.


            << It has turned off many of our "Pioneers of the Hobby" to the tune
            of several thousand past members. >>

            I thank the Pioneers for all they have done over many years. But
            there are new pioneers now. The torch gets passed on. Barbershop
            has always been about pioneering. That continues today. Some don't
            like what they hear, but they are focusing on only a few songs
            instead of seeing the entire melting pot. The old songs are still
            there and always will be. At some point in history, those old songs
            were new and they were added to the melting pot.

            Let the pioneering continue. It has always happened and always
            will. But, as I said, the barbershop world is self-policing. If it
            goes too far one way, the membership will let everyone know.
            However, it could be done more effectively, inclusively and
            harmoniously without drawing lines in the sand.

            I submit that it is better to share than to restrict. No one owns
            barbershop. And there is room for all, if ALL of us are willing.


            Cheers,
            John.
            www.realtimequartet.com
          • Michael Bell
            Wrong. Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as renaissance madrigals are a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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              Wrong.

              Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as renaissance madrigals are
              a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian Chant (another a-
              cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result from evolution of the
              chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or Baroque Cantatas? No,
              a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is not as big as the one for
              rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.

              The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and obscure it's beauty with
              "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try to present another
              argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't hold up to examination
              in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data showing that we can preserve
              the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others,
              let's see it.

              Mike Bell

              --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "i_sing_barbershop_music" <adamhaggart@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Barbershop music is a great american artform. But like any artform,
              > it evolves or it dies. Orchestral music progressed from renassiance
              > to romantic to 20th century and beyond. Rap has "evolved" from the
              > likes of Run DMC, DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince to 50 Cent,
              > Eminem, and Kanye West. (I realize this is not the kind of crowd I
              > am addressing, but I am just trying to make a point.) You take any
              > almost any musical artform and see that it has evolved over the
              > years to what it is today.
              >
              > However, with change, then comes resistance. Controversy. Open
              > retaliation. The audience detested Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" on
              > opening night, but later became one of the world's most performed
              > ballets. Many thought that Biz Markie was just making strange silly
              > noises, but now is known as the grandfather of beatboxing and has a
              > huge following. (especially across the pond) OC Times sang Beach Boy
              > tunes (incredibly well) and it turned the barbershop world against
              > each other. Is Surfer Girl barbershop? Does "Took the T-Bird Away"
              > have enough 7th chords? These songs aren't old enough...etc.
              >
              > I realize that our Society is actively engaged in the preservation
              > of our artform. But in order to survive, we must be actively
              > involved in the evolution of this wonderful "hobby". (I say hobby
              > with restraint as it is really an obsession for me and many others)
              > I love singing "Keep the Whole world Singing" at the end of every
              > chorus rehearsal. It really gets me hungry for tag singing and gives
              > me a great feeling that lasts the drive home. It is great to throw
              > down on a "My Wild Irish Rose" for singing valentines and just to
              > have fun. But I also really enjoy singing (attempting)Timmy
              > Waurick's part on Cruella Deville. Where can we find balance? Where
              > can I (and you) turn for peace?
              >
              > I guess what I am really trying to say is the world outgrew the
              > renassiance period. I don't want the "world" to continue to outgrow
              > barbershop harmony. Most people think of four old guys in striped
              > shirts and hats singing barbershop, and when they see OC Times,
              > Vocal Spectrum, Realtime, or even the Westminster Chorus (to name a
              > few) they are suprised and enthralled. They are turned on to our
              > artform and want to be a part of it, even if it is just as a
              > spectator.
              >
              > I understand that many of our older members have turned away from
              > barbershop because of the continual distancing from what is
              > regaurded as "traditional". But you can't tell me that you can sit
              > down and listen to the Westminster Chorus sing "Their Hearts were
              > full of Spring" and not get a little teary. Or that you can't enjoy
              > Vocal Spectrum and Gas House Gang just ripping the head off of
              > Scarbourough Fair. Regardless of what age you are. I hope to not
              > offend too many by saying, "So what?" So what if there aren't 75 7th
              > chords and the song the arrangement was based on was created in the
              > 80's, 90's, or heaven forbid, this decade? As long as it is sung
              > well, barbershop is great...no matter how old the song (or
              > performer) is.
              >
              > As a young person in barbershop, I promise that I will never stop
              > singing "the old songs." Never. There is too much juicy goodness in
              > them to do so. I would like to expand on that and try other things
              > too. I would like to be able to talk over my chrousmates in a
              > competition and not be penalized for it. (If we had dialogue) If I
              > felt compelled to do a broadway musical for my quartet's or
              > choruses's set for competition, then by golly, why not? The Sweet
              > Adelines have huge numbers in many of their choruses. From what I
              > see at their conventions, they are not bound by many of the rules
              > that the BHS is. They seem to really have fun with it and take
              > presentation to another level. Maybe we could actually learn
              > something from our sisters in harmony and do the same.
              >
              > In closing, my brothers (and sisters), I love you. I love the
              > society in which we are a part of. It is so great to sing with
              > others at a high level to express ourselves. I am so honored to be a
              > part of this great orginazation. It is a large part of
              > what "defines" me. This message was not meant to offend, but rather
              > just to offer a different view. I hope it will be recieved as such.
              >
              > Keep the whole world singing!
              >
              > Adam Haggart
              > Saltaires Show Chorus Lead
              > Wasatch Front Y.I.H Chairman
              > Salt Lake City, UT
              >
            • ausleadjohn
              Well, this approach and attitude is sure to have new members showing up in droves! Who could resist? Cue what I said in my last post about no need to draw
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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                Well, this approach and attitude is sure to have new members showing
                up in droves! Who could resist?

                Cue what I said in my last post about no need to draw lines in the
                sand... try inclusion and sharing, instead of exclusion and division.

                I have an inkling about which way may be more successful for the
                future.

                John.


                --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bell" <mike@...> wrote:
                >
                > Wrong.
                >
                > Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as
                renaissance madrigals are
                > a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian
                Chant (another a-
                > cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result
                from evolution of the
                > chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or
                Baroque Cantatas? No,
                > a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is
                not as big as the one for
                > rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.
                >
                > The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and
                obscure it's beauty with
                > "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try
                to present another
                > argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't
                hold up to examination
                > in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data
                showing that we can preserve
                > the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach
                Boys or any others,
                > let's see it.
                >
                > Mike Bell
                >
              • i_sing_barbershop_music
                Yes, it is true that the Benedictine monks of Santo Domingo de Silos did have a triple platinum album in the early to mid ninteies, followed by a less
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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                  Yes, it is true that the Benedictine monks of Santo Domingo de Silos
                  did have a triple platinum album in the early to mid ninteies,
                  followed by a less succsessful sequel. But in the world of gregorian
                  chants or a cappella music in general, it is quite the anomaly.
                  Also, the chants were evolutionary compared to chants in the "old
                  days", but that is neither here nor there.

                  Really, if you want to get more people interested in barbershop and
                  keep our hobby alive, the approach is simple. Sing songs that people
                  want to hear and sing them well. We have a hobby that is AWESOME and
                  should be much more marketable then it is, and the "four guys in
                  striped shirts and hats" was good back in the day, but doesn't work
                  as well anymore. I like the fact the the society has become much
                  more welcoming towards younger members, because for the longest
                  time, they weren't. At least that is my perception.

                  This is ALL just a matter of perception. Everything changes over
                  time, and some are just more resistent to change than others.

                  Adam Haggart


                  --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bell" <mike@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Wrong.
                  >
                  > Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as
                  renaissance madrigals are
                  > a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian
                  Chant (another a-
                  > cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result
                  from evolution of the
                  > chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or
                  Baroque Cantatas? No,
                  > a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is
                  not as big as the one for
                  > rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.
                  >
                  > The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and
                  obscure it's beauty with
                  > "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try
                  to present another
                  > argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't
                  hold up to examination
                  > in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data
                  showing that we can preserve
                  > the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the
                  Beach Boys or any others,
                  > let's see it.
                  >
                  > Mike Bell
                  >
                  > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "i_sing_barbershop_music"
                  <adamhaggart@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Barbershop music is a great american artform. But like any
                  artform,
                  > > it evolves or it dies. Orchestral music progressed from
                  renassiance
                  > > to romantic to 20th century and beyond. Rap has "evolved" from
                  the
                  > > likes of Run DMC, DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince to 50 Cent,
                  > > Eminem, and Kanye West. (I realize this is not the kind of crowd
                  I
                  > > am addressing, but I am just trying to make a point.) You take
                  any
                  > > almost any musical artform and see that it has evolved over the
                  > > years to what it is today.
                  > >
                  > > However, with change, then comes resistance. Controversy. Open
                  > > retaliation. The audience detested Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring"
                  on
                  > > opening night, but later became one of the world's most
                  performed
                  > > ballets. Many thought that Biz Markie was just making strange
                  silly
                  > > noises, but now is known as the grandfather of beatboxing and
                  has a
                  > > huge following. (especially across the pond) OC Times sang Beach
                  Boy
                  > > tunes (incredibly well) and it turned the barbershop world
                  against
                  > > each other. Is Surfer Girl barbershop? Does "Took the T-Bird
                  Away"
                  > > have enough 7th chords? These songs aren't old enough...etc.
                  > >
                  > > I realize that our Society is actively engaged in the
                  preservation
                  > > of our artform. But in order to survive, we must be actively
                  > > involved in the evolution of this wonderful "hobby". (I say
                  hobby
                  > > with restraint as it is really an obsession for me and many
                  others)
                  > > I love singing "Keep the Whole world Singing" at the end of
                  every
                  > > chorus rehearsal. It really gets me hungry for tag singing and
                  gives
                  > > me a great feeling that lasts the drive home. It is great to
                  throw
                  > > down on a "My Wild Irish Rose" for singing valentines and just
                  to
                  > > have fun. But I also really enjoy singing (attempting)Timmy
                  > > Waurick's part on Cruella Deville. Where can we find balance?
                  Where
                  > > can I (and you) turn for peace?
                  > >
                  > > I guess what I am really trying to say is the world outgrew the
                  > > renassiance period. I don't want the "world" to continue to
                  outgrow
                  > > barbershop harmony. Most people think of four old guys in
                  striped
                  > > shirts and hats singing barbershop, and when they see OC Times,
                  > > Vocal Spectrum, Realtime, or even the Westminster Chorus (to
                  name a
                  > > few) they are suprised and enthralled. They are turned on to our
                  > > artform and want to be a part of it, even if it is just as a
                  > > spectator.
                  > >
                  > > I understand that many of our older members have turned away
                  from
                  > > barbershop because of the continual distancing from what is
                  > > regaurded as "traditional". But you can't tell me that you can
                  sit
                  > > down and listen to the Westminster Chorus sing "Their Hearts
                  were
                  > > full of Spring" and not get a little teary. Or that you can't
                  enjoy
                  > > Vocal Spectrum and Gas House Gang just ripping the head off of
                  > > Scarbourough Fair. Regardless of what age you are. I hope to not
                  > > offend too many by saying, "So what?" So what if there aren't 75
                  7th
                  > > chords and the song the arrangement was based on was created in
                  the
                  > > 80's, 90's, or heaven forbid, this decade? As long as it is sung
                  > > well, barbershop is great...no matter how old the song (or
                  > > performer) is.
                  > >
                  > > As a young person in barbershop, I promise that I will never
                  stop
                  > > singing "the old songs." Never. There is too much juicy goodness
                  in
                  > > them to do so. I would like to expand on that and try other
                  things
                  > > too. I would like to be able to talk over my chrousmates in a
                  > > competition and not be penalized for it. (If we had dialogue) If
                  I
                  > > felt compelled to do a broadway musical for my quartet's or
                  > > choruses's set for competition, then by golly, why not? The
                  Sweet
                  > > Adelines have huge numbers in many of their choruses. From what
                  I
                  > > see at their conventions, they are not bound by many of the
                  rules
                  > > that the BHS is. They seem to really have fun with it and take
                  > > presentation to another level. Maybe we could actually learn
                  > > something from our sisters in harmony and do the same.
                  > >
                  > > In closing, my brothers (and sisters), I love you. I love the
                  > > society in which we are a part of. It is so great to sing with
                  > > others at a high level to express ourselves. I am so honored to
                  be a
                  > > part of this great orginazation. It is a large part of
                  > > what "defines" me. This message was not meant to offend, but
                  rather
                  > > just to offer a different view. I hope it will be recieved as
                  such.
                  > >
                  > > Keep the whole world singing!
                  > >
                  > > Adam Haggart
                  > > Saltaires Show Chorus Lead
                  > > Wasatch Front Y.I.H Chairman
                  > > Salt Lake City, UT
                  > >
                  >
                • Lauren House
                  Well stated, excellent post on the topic! Harmoniously, in full agreement. Lauren House Reno, Nevada _____ From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Well stated, excellent post on the topic!

                    Harmoniously, in full agreement.

                    Lauren House
                    Reno, Nevada

                    _____

                    From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    i_sing_barbershop_music
                    Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 9:45 AM
                    To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [bbshop] Re: Question of Suitability of Arrangement



                    Barbershop music is a great american artform. But like any artform,
                    it evolves or it dies. Orchestral music progressed from renassiance
                    to romantic to 20th century and beyond. Rap has "evolved" from the
                    likes of Run DMC, DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince to 50 Cent,
                    Eminem, and Kanye West. (I realize this is not the kind of crowd I
                    am addressing, but I am just trying to make a point.) You take any
                    almost any musical artform and see that it has evolved over the
                    years to what it is today.

                    However, with change, then comes resistance. Controversy. Open
                    retaliation. The audience detested Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" on
                    opening night, but later became one of the world's most performed
                    ballets. Many thought that Biz Markie was just making strange silly
                    noises, but now is known as the grandfather of beatboxing and has a
                    huge following. (especially across the pond) OC Times sang Beach Boy
                    tunes (incredibly well) and it turned the barbershop world against
                    each other. Is Surfer Girl barbershop? Does "Took the T-Bird Away"
                    have enough 7th chords? These songs aren't old enough...etc.

                    I realize that our Society is actively engaged in the preservation
                    of our artform. But in order to survive, we must be actively
                    involved in the evolution of this wonderful "hobby". (I say hobby
                    with restraint as it is really an obsession for me and many others)
                    I love singing "Keep the Whole world Singing" at the end of every
                    chorus rehearsal. It really gets me hungry for tag singing and gives
                    me a great feeling that lasts the drive home. It is great to throw
                    down on a "My Wild Irish Rose" for singing valentines and just to
                    have fun. But I also really enjoy singing (attempting)Timmy
                    Waurick's part on Cruella Deville. Where can we find balance? Where
                    can I (and you) turn for peace?

                    I guess what I am really trying to say is the world outgrew the
                    renassiance period. I don't want the "world" to continue to outgrow
                    barbershop harmony. Most people think of four old guys in striped
                    shirts and hats singing barbershop, and when they see OC Times,
                    Vocal Spectrum, Realtime, or even the Westminster Chorus (to name a
                    few) they are suprised and enthralled. They are turned on to our
                    artform and want to be a part of it, even if it is just as a
                    spectator.

                    I understand that many of our older members have turned away from
                    barbershop because of the continual distancing from what is
                    regaurded as "traditional". But you can't tell me that you can sit
                    down and listen to the Westminster Chorus sing "Their Hearts were
                    full of Spring" and not get a little teary. Or that you can't enjoy
                    Vocal Spectrum and Gas House Gang just ripping the head off of
                    Scarbourough Fair. Regardless of what age you are. I hope to not
                    offend too many by saying, "So what?" So what if there aren't 75 7th
                    chords and the song the arrangement was based on was created in the
                    80's, 90's, or heaven forbid, this decade? As long as it is sung
                    well, barbershop is great...no matter how old the song (or
                    performer) is.

                    As a young person in barbershop, I promise that I will never stop
                    singing "the old songs." Never. There is too much juicy goodness in
                    them to do so. I would like to expand on that and try other things
                    too. I would like to be able to talk over my chrousmates in a
                    competition and not be penalized for it. (If we had dialogue) If I
                    felt compelled to do a broadway musical for my quartet's or
                    choruses's set for competition, then by golly, why not? The Sweet
                    Adelines have huge numbers in many of their choruses. From what I
                    see at their conventions, they are not bound by many of the rules
                    that the BHS is. They seem to really have fun with it and take
                    presentation to another level. Maybe we could actually learn
                    something from our sisters in harmony and do the same.

                    In closing, my brothers (and sisters), I love you. I love the
                    society in which we are a part of. It is so great to sing with
                    others at a high level to express ourselves. I am so honored to be a
                    part of this great orginazation. It is a large part of
                    what "defines" me. This message was not meant to offend, but rather
                    just to offer a different view. I hope it will be recieved as such.

                    Keep the whole world singing!

                    Adam Haggart
                    Saltaires Show Chorus Lead
                    Wasatch Front Y.I.H Chairman
                    Salt Lake City, UT



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Michael Bell
                    John, I was not advocating an approach to membership or retention. I was questioning a hypothesis ( evolve or die ) that many seem to view as axiomatic. That
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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                      John,

                      I was not advocating an approach to membership or retention. I was questioning a
                      hypothesis ("evolve or die") that many seem to view as axiomatic. That hypothesis doesn't
                      make sense to me. If we were a vocal jazz organization with shrinking membership would
                      we assume that by including gangsta rap, or madrigals, or barbershop we could reverse
                      the trend?

                      I'm not drawing lines in the sand. I'm not excluding anyone. I'm asking that we take a
                      more thoughtful look at what we are preserving, and how best to accomplish our shared
                      goal.

                      Mike Bell



                      --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "ausleadjohn" <newelljs@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Well, this approach and attitude is sure to have new members showing
                      > up in droves! Who could resist?
                      >
                      > Cue what I said in my last post about no need to draw lines in the
                      > sand... try inclusion and sharing, instead of exclusion and division.
                      >
                      > I have an inkling about which way may be more successful for the
                      > future.
                      >
                      > John.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bell" <mike@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Wrong.
                      > >
                      > > Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as
                      > renaissance madrigals are
                      > > a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian
                      > Chant (another a-
                      > > cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result
                      > from evolution of the
                      > > chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or
                      > Baroque Cantatas? No,
                      > > a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is
                      > not as big as the one for
                      > > rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.
                      > >
                      > > The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and
                      > obscure it's beauty with
                      > > "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try
                      > to present another
                      > > argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't
                      > hold up to examination
                      > > in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data
                      > showing that we can preserve
                      > > the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach
                      > Boys or any others,
                      > > let's see it.
                      > >
                      > > Mike Bell
                      > >
                      >
                    • super mario
                      Mike, If you have data showing that we CAN T preserve the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others, let s see it.
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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                        Mike,
                        If you have data showing that we CAN'T preserve the barbershop style by including "simplistic" pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others, let's see it. Logical fallacies work both ways, not just where you want them to.

                        Also, does anyone know of anyone advocating the elimination of the old songs? Didn't think so.

                        Mario Hernandez-Gerety
                        Bass - Vertigo
                        2007 RMD 3rd Place Quartet
                        2007 RMD Novice Quartet Champions

                        PS As a member of the Westminster Chapter, I have personally seen OC Times ring the snot out of more old songs than you can shake a stick at. These guys can ring anything and ring it anywhere. They love the old songs and respect the roots of our style more than most people in this society. Just because they sing some new stuff and push the envelope doesn't mean they don't appreciate where it all came from.


                        To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                        From: mike@...
                        Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 19:23:49 +0000
                        Subject: [bbshop] Re: Question of Suitability of Arrangement




















                        Wrong.



                        Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as renaissance madrigals are

                        a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian Chant (another a-

                        cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result from evolution of the

                        chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or Baroque Cantatas? No,

                        a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is not as big as the one for

                        rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.



                        The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and obscure it's beauty with

                        "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try to present another

                        argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't hold up to examination

                        in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data showing that we can preserve

                        the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others,

                        let's see it.



























                        _________________________________________________________________
                        Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power.
                        http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Michael Bell
                        Since Mario is bringing specific groups into this discussion about style, I ve answered his email privately. MB ... simplistic pop tunes by the Beach Boys or
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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                          Since Mario is bringing specific groups into this discussion about
                          style, I've answered his email privately.

                          MB

                          --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, super mario <supermario91@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Mike,
                          > If you have data showing that we CAN'T preserve the barbershop style by including
                          "simplistic" pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others, let's see it. Logical fallacies work
                          both ways, not just where you want them to.
                          >
                          > Also, does anyone know of anyone advocating the elimination of the old songs? Didn't
                          think so.
                          >
                          > Mario Hernandez-Gerety
                          > Bass - Vertigo
                          > 2007 RMD 3rd Place Quartet
                          > 2007 RMD Novice Quartet Champions
                          >
                          > PS As a member of the Westminster Chapter, I have personally seen OC Times ring the
                          snot out of more old songs than you can shake a stick at. These guys can ring anything
                          and ring it anywhere. They love the old songs and respect the roots of our style more
                          than most people in this society. Just because they sing some new stuff and push the
                          envelope doesn't mean they don't appreciate where it all came from.
                          >
                          >
                          > To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: mike@...
                          > Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 19:23:49 +0000
                          > Subject: [bbshop] Re: Question of Suitability of Arrangement
                        • Shelley Herman
                          ... You re right about OC Times. They sing everything well. What a lot of people have a problem with is: Singing unbarbershop (i.e. Beach boys) in CONTEST.
                          Message 12 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            > PS As a member of the Westminster Chapter, I have personally seen OC Times
                            > ring the snot out of more old songs than you can shake a stick at. These guys
                            > can ring anything and ring it anywhere. They love the old songs and respect
                            > the roots of our style more than most people in this society. Just because
                            > they sing some new stuff and push the envelope doesn't mean they don't
                            > appreciate where it all came from.


                            You're right about OC Times. They sing everything well. What a lot of
                            people have a problem with is: Singing unbarbershop (i.e. Beach boys) in
                            CONTEST.

                            Sing what you want on shows, sing barbershop in CONTEST!

                            Shelley Herman
                          • MARQUIS652@aol.com
                            Adam, Thanks for your contributions to this list. I too, started singing barbershop when I was young. (14 years old)... I was on the stage crrew at my high
                            Message 13 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Adam,

                              Thanks for your contributions to this list.

                              I too, started singing barbershop when I was young. (14 years old)...
                              I was on the stage crrew at my high school, heard the local chapter
                              and was hooked by THE SOUND. I only knew a couple of the songs.
                              THE SOUND is what got me excited.

                              I get excited by O.C.Times, Max Q, GHG, Interstate Rivals and many, many
                              others.
                              Not so much for what they sing, but for how they sing. THE SOUND.

                              Now that I am older and have my own kids who are singing barbershop,
                              I decided to ask them what they like most about barbershop. You know
                              what, it turns out to be THE SOUND, the fellowship and the chance to perform
                              and entertain and to make people happy with our music.

                              Keep singing harmony, I hope in the Barbershop style.

                              Jay Hawkins
                              Bass - Four Aces

                              and a few other groups and a PROUD Member
                              of The Southern Gateway Chorus of Cincinnati.



                              ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • willhamblet
                              Well, here s something a bit different: an old f*** who isn t a Kibber. I ve belonged to the Society for over 35 years. I initially joined because I heard
                              Message 14 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
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                                Well, here's something a bit different: an old f*** who isn't a
                                Kibber. I've belonged to the Society for over 35 years. I initially
                                joined because I heard The Beach Boys singing (a cappella) "Their
                                Hearts Were Full of Spring." I didn't know they had ripped it off
                                the Dick Reynolds arrangement for the Four Freshman. I just
                                thought, "Boy, would I love to do something like that." At the time,
                                the only thing that was "something like that" was SPEBSQSA. The
                                first Barbershop album I ever purchased was The Sidewinders… and my
                                favorite cut was Buzz Haeger's arrangement of "The Way You Look
                                Tonight" (definitely not something that would have passed the
                                Arrangement category in those days). I know there were a lot of my
                                contemporaries (early 70's) who enjoyed The Hi-Lo's much more than
                                The Buffalo Bills and my current all-time favorite BHS quartets
                                would probably be Keepsake, Gas House Gang & Realtime (none of them
                                particularly "oldies but goodies").

                                At any rate, I definitely prefer Barbershop (musically) NOW as
                                opposed to when I joined. On the other hand, I didn't care much for
                                what Aaron Dale did to The Beach Boys songs… but then I consider
                                Brian Wilson sacrosanct. And that's my problem!!!

                                Will
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