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RE: Question of Suitability of Arrangement

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  • Steve Jacobsen
    I didn t realize my request to get feedback from the music judging community would prompt so much traffic, but I think it s great that it did, because it gives
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 1, 2007
      I didn't realize my request to get feedback from the music judging community would prompt so much traffic, but I think it's great that it did, because it gives me a chance to say "Thanks" to all of them who responded (several) in a public forum. Everyone who responded was within 3 points of each other with their thoughts and comments, so I would certainly say they have all been properly calibrated for this cycle! Seriously, I've always appreciated judges' comments, even when it's hard to hear what they have to say, as I know they only have my interests and the interests of this great hobby at heart. It's easy and often fun to rail at them, or even disagree with them, but most assuredly we all owe them a debt of gratitude for the time and effort our judges put into making this hobby all that it is. Thanks, guys!
      Steve Jacobsen
      Tallahassee, FL
      Bari - PBQ
    • Jack W. Martin
      Hi Steve, I was one that commented on your original post regarding the music judges responding to your request. I would like to make comment again, in maybe
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
        Hi Steve,

        I was one that commented on your original post regarding the music
        judges responding to your request. I would like to make comment
        again, in maybe a more positive way.

        First I agree that, we owe a debt of gratitude for the time and
        effort our judges put into making this hobby all that it is. I, as
        many of us, have some very close friends in the judging system. (high
        Raymond, Jim, Kevin) Every one I know is a man of integrity, although
        I do not agree with them on several things, at times.

        IMHO, what is wrong with our judging system is, certain aspects of the
        current rules and the influence our judging community and arrangers
        has had on the development of these rules. Having read the definition
        of the categories, I take exception to certain aspects of the music
        category and the presentation categories. In some cases it is what is
        written and sometimes, what is not there.

        I strongly disagree with the presentation category where in it allows
        talking. The first time talking occurred in an International contest
        that I can remember, with out being DQ'd, was in 1985. Some of you
        will remember this and for those of you who don't, check it out with
        the judges of the stage presence/presentation category during that
        time frame. As I remember,the stage presence judges made the decision,
        that the talking that took place, fit into the theme of the
        performance and was deemed OK, even though it was in violation of the
        rules, at that time.

        Well, you can see what has happened since that time. We migrated from
        small talk and jokes, to fully setting up the scene for a performance,
        as was done in a recent International contest. Are we singers, or
        orators?

        Also I believe the presentation category rules outlaw patriotic and
        religious music. This is a tough one as some of our accepted songs,
        border line on being prayers. Maybe a stretch, but I believe, many
        would agree.

        My definition of "The Old Songs" are not necessarily ones that were of
        any era. Although much of the music that was written in the late
        1800's to say 1930's, seemed to lend themselves well to barbershop
        harmony. Sure, there have been songs written in later years that lend
        themselves to good barbershop presentation but many more just don't
        fit the style in my judgement.

        One of my criteria for accepting a song as a good barbershop vehicle
        is, "Is it a song that might have been sung in a barbershop in the
        first half of the 20th century? Is it one that might have been
        woodshedable. (Is that a word?) If I can't imagine this, then the
        song becomes very suspect to me. Is this good criteria? You may not
        agree if you are not into preservation. Preservation just don't tag
        along behind the evolution route. Ya can't change historic events to
        suit your taste in music as time goes on. In time you evolve into
        something that no longer represents "what was!"

        Can you imagine, Orange Colored Sky being sung in a barbershop of the
        early 20th century? I can't! Or some of the other edge of the
        envelope and beyond music being done in contest without severe
        penalty. "Daddy Took Her T Bird Away" took second place in Denver.
        What have we become?

        I often blame the music category for the type music we allow without
        severe penalty, because in the 4 and 5 category judging system, this
        was mostly covered by the arrangement category. Also the best
        barbershop music was somewhat controlled by what Dave Stevens laid out
        in his presentation of "What Are We Trying to Preserve?" What Dave
        said was being practiced for many years prior to him putting it into
        such an eloquent address.

        I find it very disturbing that many of our Barbershoppers, young and
        old alike, no longer appreciate what barbershop was in the beginning,
        and how it became better defined as we matured into the 1950-1970 time
        frame. There was no evolution there! It was a shaping of what we
        started with, to a more pleasurable, style. This shaping allowed our
        wonderful hobby to become a spectator sport as well as a participant
        sport. One that all barbershoppers could enjoy, both singer and
        audience. Ya think that our older music is obsolete? Trying singing
        "Dance My Way To Dixie Land" arranged by Brian Beck and sung at
        International in 1970 by the Doo Dads. (8th place, I believe) You
        will knock the socks off your audience with this Old Song!

        Ya gotta remember that, what we sing is what we preserve. Some do
        not seem to understand this fact.

        Our recent years have truly been a change in our music that strokes
        the ego's of the arrangers and more talented younger singers. It has
        done very little to enhance Barbershop. It has turned off many of our
        "Pioneers of the Hobby" to the tune of several thousand past members.

        All reading this post are encouraged to visit the November, 2007 issue
        of the Jacksonville, FL, Big 'O' chapter bulletin. "OrangeSpiel
        "(http://www.bigorangechorus.com/NewsArchive.htm.) It has a great
        article written by Tom Dames, lead/tenor of the Great MAD quartet the
        Easternaires.

        Thanks for the opening Steve to give the judges credit for what they
        do and the opportunity to vent a bit and maybe gather up a supporter
        or two!

        In Harmony
        Jack Martin
        38 year SPEBSQSA member
        strong "Pioneer/BQPA" supporter






        On 11/1/07, Steve Jacobsen <stevej@...> wrote:
        > I didn't realize my request to get feedback from the music judging community would prompt so much traffic, but I think it's great that it did, because it gives me a chance to say "Thanks" to all of them who responded (several) in a public forum. Everyone who responded was within 3 points of each other with their thoughts and comments, so I would certainly say they have all been properly calibrated for this cycle! Seriously, I've always appreciated judges' comments, even when it's hard to hear what they have to say, as I know they only have my interests and the interests of this great hobby at heart. It's easy and often fun to rail at them, or even disagree with them, but most assuredly we all owe them a debt of gratitude for the time and effort our judges put into making this hobby all that it is. Thanks, guys!
        > Steve Jacobsen
        > Tallahassee, FL
        > Bari - PBQ
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • i_sing_barbershop_music
        Barbershop music is a great american artform. But like any artform, it evolves or it dies. Orchestral music progressed from renassiance to romantic to 20th
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
          Barbershop music is a great american artform. But like any artform,
          it evolves or it dies. Orchestral music progressed from renassiance
          to romantic to 20th century and beyond. Rap has "evolved" from the
          likes of Run DMC, DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince to 50 Cent,
          Eminem, and Kanye West. (I realize this is not the kind of crowd I
          am addressing, but I am just trying to make a point.) You take any
          almost any musical artform and see that it has evolved over the
          years to what it is today.

          However, with change, then comes resistance. Controversy. Open
          retaliation. The audience detested Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" on
          opening night, but later became one of the world's most performed
          ballets. Many thought that Biz Markie was just making strange silly
          noises, but now is known as the grandfather of beatboxing and has a
          huge following. (especially across the pond) OC Times sang Beach Boy
          tunes (incredibly well) and it turned the barbershop world against
          each other. Is Surfer Girl barbershop? Does "Took the T-Bird Away"
          have enough 7th chords? These songs aren't old enough...etc.

          I realize that our Society is actively engaged in the preservation
          of our artform. But in order to survive, we must be actively
          involved in the evolution of this wonderful "hobby". (I say hobby
          with restraint as it is really an obsession for me and many others)
          I love singing "Keep the Whole world Singing" at the end of every
          chorus rehearsal. It really gets me hungry for tag singing and gives
          me a great feeling that lasts the drive home. It is great to throw
          down on a "My Wild Irish Rose" for singing valentines and just to
          have fun. But I also really enjoy singing (attempting)Timmy
          Waurick's part on Cruella Deville. Where can we find balance? Where
          can I (and you) turn for peace?

          I guess what I am really trying to say is the world outgrew the
          renassiance period. I don't want the "world" to continue to outgrow
          barbershop harmony. Most people think of four old guys in striped
          shirts and hats singing barbershop, and when they see OC Times,
          Vocal Spectrum, Realtime, or even the Westminster Chorus (to name a
          few) they are suprised and enthralled. They are turned on to our
          artform and want to be a part of it, even if it is just as a
          spectator.

          I understand that many of our older members have turned away from
          barbershop because of the continual distancing from what is
          regaurded as "traditional". But you can't tell me that you can sit
          down and listen to the Westminster Chorus sing "Their Hearts were
          full of Spring" and not get a little teary. Or that you can't enjoy
          Vocal Spectrum and Gas House Gang just ripping the head off of
          Scarbourough Fair. Regardless of what age you are. I hope to not
          offend too many by saying, "So what?" So what if there aren't 75 7th
          chords and the song the arrangement was based on was created in the
          80's, 90's, or heaven forbid, this decade? As long as it is sung
          well, barbershop is great...no matter how old the song (or
          performer) is.

          As a young person in barbershop, I promise that I will never stop
          singing "the old songs." Never. There is too much juicy goodness in
          them to do so. I would like to expand on that and try other things
          too. I would like to be able to talk over my chrousmates in a
          competition and not be penalized for it. (If we had dialogue) If I
          felt compelled to do a broadway musical for my quartet's or
          choruses's set for competition, then by golly, why not? The Sweet
          Adelines have huge numbers in many of their choruses. From what I
          see at their conventions, they are not bound by many of the rules
          that the BHS is. They seem to really have fun with it and take
          presentation to another level. Maybe we could actually learn
          something from our sisters in harmony and do the same.

          In closing, my brothers (and sisters), I love you. I love the
          society in which we are a part of. It is so great to sing with
          others at a high level to express ourselves. I am so honored to be a
          part of this great orginazation. It is a large part of
          what "defines" me. This message was not meant to offend, but rather
          just to offer a different view. I hope it will be recieved as such.

          Keep the whole world singing!

          Adam Haggart
          Saltaires Show Chorus Lead
          Wasatch Front Y.I.H Chairman
          Salt Lake City, UT
        • Joe Johnson
          Bravo!!! Thanks, Adam, for expressing so eloquently what so many of us feel. i_sing_barbershop_music wrote: Barbershop music is a great
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
            Bravo!!! Thanks, Adam, for expressing so eloquently what so many of us feel.


            i_sing_barbershop_music <adamhaggart@...> wrote:

            Barbershop music is a great american artform. But like any artform,
            it evolves or it dies. Orchestral music progressed from renassiance
            to romantic to 20th century and beyond. Rap has "evolved" from the
            likes of Run DMC, DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince to 50 Cent,
            Eminem, and Kanye West. (I realize this is not the kind of crowd I
            am addressing, but I am just trying to make a point.) You take any
            almost any musical artform and see that it has evolved over the
            years to what it is today.

            However, with change, then comes resistance. Controversy. Open
            retaliation. The audience detested Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" on
            opening night, but later became one of the world's most performed
            ballets. Many thought that Biz Markie was just making strange silly
            noises, but now is known as the grandfather of beatboxing and has a
            huge following. (especially across the pond) OC Times sang Beach Boy
            tunes (incredibly well) and it turned the barbershop world against
            each other. Is Surfer Girl barbershop? Does "Took the T-Bird Away"
            have enough 7th chords? These songs aren't old enough...etc.

            I realize that our Society is actively engaged in the preservation
            of our artform. But in order to survive, we must be actively
            involved in the evolution of this wonderful "hobby". (I say hobby
            with restraint as it is really an obsession for me and many others)
            I love singing "Keep the Whole world Singing" at the end of every
            chorus rehearsal. It really gets me hungry for tag singing and gives
            me a great feeling that lasts the drive home. It is great to throw
            down on a "My Wild Irish Rose" for singing valentines and just to
            have fun. But I also really enjoy singing (attempting)Timmy
            Waurick's part on Cruella Deville. Where can we find balance? Where
            can I (and you) turn for peace?

            I guess what I am really trying to say is the world outgrew the
            renassiance period. I don't want the "world" to continue to outgrow
            barbershop harmony. Most people think of four old guys in striped
            shirts and hats singing barbershop, and when they see OC Times,
            Vocal Spectrum, Realtime, or even the Westminster Chorus (to name a
            few) they are suprised and enthralled. They are turned on to our
            artform and want to be a part of it, even if it is just as a
            spectator.

            I understand that many of our older members have turned away from
            barbershop because of the continual distancing from what is
            regaurded as "traditional". But you can't tell me that you can sit
            down and listen to the Westminster Chorus sing "Their Hearts were
            full of Spring" and not get a little teary. Or that you can't enjoy
            Vocal Spectrum and Gas House Gang just ripping the head off of
            Scarbourough Fair. Regardless of what age you are. I hope to not
            offend too many by saying, "So what?" So what if there aren't 75 7th
            chords and the song the arrangement was based on was created in the
            80's, 90's, or heaven forbid, this decade? As long as it is sung
            well, barbershop is great...no matter how old the song (or
            performer) is.

            As a young person in barbershop, I promise that I will never stop
            singing "the old songs." Never. There is too much juicy goodness in
            them to do so. I would like to expand on that and try other things
            too. I would like to be able to talk over my chrousmates in a
            competition and not be penalized for it. (If we had dialogue) If I
            felt compelled to do a broadway musical for my quartet's or
            choruses's set for competition, then by golly, why not? The Sweet
            Adelines have huge numbers in many of their choruses. From what I
            see at their conventions, they are not bound by many of the rules
            that the BHS is. They seem to really have fun with it and take
            presentation to another level. Maybe we could actually learn
            something from our sisters in harmony and do the same.

            In closing, my brothers (and sisters), I love you. I love the
            society in which we are a part of. It is so great to sing with
            others at a high level to express ourselves. I am so honored to be a
            part of this great orginazation. It is a large part of
            what "defines" me. This message was not meant to offend, but rather
            just to offer a different view. I hope it will be recieved as such.

            Keep the whole world singing!

            Adam Haggart
            Saltaires Show Chorus Lead
            Wasatch Front Y.I.H Chairman
            Salt Lake City, UT






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ausleadjohn
            Hi, all. Yet again we move into a discussion about preservation and evolution. I appreciate everyone s desire to enjoy barbershop the way he or she likes it.
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
              Hi, all.

              Yet again we move into a discussion about preservation and evolution.

              I appreciate everyone's desire to enjoy barbershop the way he or she
              likes it. Therefore I think of barbershop as a big melting pot. The
              old music and traditions are all in the pot. Meanwhile new ideas are
              being added all the time. Some mix in well and are kept; others
              don't and are removed or altered.

              This is how barbershop began. It was very much improvised a cappella
              harmony singing. This experimental element has always been an
              integral part of barbershop since the artform first found a footing.

              I also believe barbershop is self-policing.

              Barbershop, like any form of music, evolves and changes and grows.
              New things are added to the melting pot. This happens regardless of
              how hard we try to control it, codify it, own it, stop it from
              evolving or just preserve it as it was.

              There is no need to draw a line in the sand so often.


              As for some things Jack Martin said...


              << Are we singers, or orators? >>

              This one I have to agree with. I applaud new ideas, but it ain't
              possible to speak in four-part harmony. A few comments in the middle
              of a song that enhance the entertainment or theme are fine with me,
              but speaking to set up a song... well, we're judged on the impact of
              the song and the singing and the presentation of those. Contest is
              about who does these things best, not who talks best.


              << Ya can't change historic events to suit your taste in music as
              time goes on. In time you evolve into something that no longer
              represents "what was!" ... I find it very disturbing that many of
              our Barbershoppers, young and old alike, no longer appreciate what
              barbershop was in the beginning, and how it became better defined as
              we matured into the 1950-1970 time frame. There was no evolution
              there! >>

              Hmmm... The barbershop leaders of the 1950-1970 time frame were good
              people and did a lot of great things. However, no leadership is
              perfect in any period of history. Looking at the history of
              barbershop from its very beginnings, through the formation of the
              Society, through the music sung in the 1940s, through the 1950-70
              era, through to today... when one sees the whole picture, innovation
              and experimentation and improvization and evolution have been
              hallmarks of barbershop music. In the 1950-70 era many great things
              were done and many great quartets sang, but the "maturing" also
              involved taking away chances to be innovative. The style was greatly
              restricted and constrained and made extraordinarily conservative.
              And like it or not, that was a form of evolution.

              There has always been evolution. The Society in the 1950s was very
              different from the Society in 1940. The singing styles evolved
              through the '40s, '50s and '60s. Just listen to the recordings.
              Maybe some people turn a blind eye.


              << It has turned off many of our "Pioneers of the Hobby" to the tune
              of several thousand past members. >>

              I thank the Pioneers for all they have done over many years. But
              there are new pioneers now. The torch gets passed on. Barbershop
              has always been about pioneering. That continues today. Some don't
              like what they hear, but they are focusing on only a few songs
              instead of seeing the entire melting pot. The old songs are still
              there and always will be. At some point in history, those old songs
              were new and they were added to the melting pot.

              Let the pioneering continue. It has always happened and always
              will. But, as I said, the barbershop world is self-policing. If it
              goes too far one way, the membership will let everyone know.
              However, it could be done more effectively, inclusively and
              harmoniously without drawing lines in the sand.

              I submit that it is better to share than to restrict. No one owns
              barbershop. And there is room for all, if ALL of us are willing.


              Cheers,
              John.
              www.realtimequartet.com
            • Michael Bell
              Wrong. Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as renaissance madrigals are a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
                Wrong.

                Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as renaissance madrigals are
                a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian Chant (another a-
                cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result from evolution of the
                chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or Baroque Cantatas? No,
                a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is not as big as the one for
                rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.

                The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and obscure it's beauty with
                "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try to present another
                argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't hold up to examination
                in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data showing that we can preserve
                the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others,
                let's see it.

                Mike Bell

                --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "i_sing_barbershop_music" <adamhaggart@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Barbershop music is a great american artform. But like any artform,
                > it evolves or it dies. Orchestral music progressed from renassiance
                > to romantic to 20th century and beyond. Rap has "evolved" from the
                > likes of Run DMC, DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince to 50 Cent,
                > Eminem, and Kanye West. (I realize this is not the kind of crowd I
                > am addressing, but I am just trying to make a point.) You take any
                > almost any musical artform and see that it has evolved over the
                > years to what it is today.
                >
                > However, with change, then comes resistance. Controversy. Open
                > retaliation. The audience detested Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" on
                > opening night, but later became one of the world's most performed
                > ballets. Many thought that Biz Markie was just making strange silly
                > noises, but now is known as the grandfather of beatboxing and has a
                > huge following. (especially across the pond) OC Times sang Beach Boy
                > tunes (incredibly well) and it turned the barbershop world against
                > each other. Is Surfer Girl barbershop? Does "Took the T-Bird Away"
                > have enough 7th chords? These songs aren't old enough...etc.
                >
                > I realize that our Society is actively engaged in the preservation
                > of our artform. But in order to survive, we must be actively
                > involved in the evolution of this wonderful "hobby". (I say hobby
                > with restraint as it is really an obsession for me and many others)
                > I love singing "Keep the Whole world Singing" at the end of every
                > chorus rehearsal. It really gets me hungry for tag singing and gives
                > me a great feeling that lasts the drive home. It is great to throw
                > down on a "My Wild Irish Rose" for singing valentines and just to
                > have fun. But I also really enjoy singing (attempting)Timmy
                > Waurick's part on Cruella Deville. Where can we find balance? Where
                > can I (and you) turn for peace?
                >
                > I guess what I am really trying to say is the world outgrew the
                > renassiance period. I don't want the "world" to continue to outgrow
                > barbershop harmony. Most people think of four old guys in striped
                > shirts and hats singing barbershop, and when they see OC Times,
                > Vocal Spectrum, Realtime, or even the Westminster Chorus (to name a
                > few) they are suprised and enthralled. They are turned on to our
                > artform and want to be a part of it, even if it is just as a
                > spectator.
                >
                > I understand that many of our older members have turned away from
                > barbershop because of the continual distancing from what is
                > regaurded as "traditional". But you can't tell me that you can sit
                > down and listen to the Westminster Chorus sing "Their Hearts were
                > full of Spring" and not get a little teary. Or that you can't enjoy
                > Vocal Spectrum and Gas House Gang just ripping the head off of
                > Scarbourough Fair. Regardless of what age you are. I hope to not
                > offend too many by saying, "So what?" So what if there aren't 75 7th
                > chords and the song the arrangement was based on was created in the
                > 80's, 90's, or heaven forbid, this decade? As long as it is sung
                > well, barbershop is great...no matter how old the song (or
                > performer) is.
                >
                > As a young person in barbershop, I promise that I will never stop
                > singing "the old songs." Never. There is too much juicy goodness in
                > them to do so. I would like to expand on that and try other things
                > too. I would like to be able to talk over my chrousmates in a
                > competition and not be penalized for it. (If we had dialogue) If I
                > felt compelled to do a broadway musical for my quartet's or
                > choruses's set for competition, then by golly, why not? The Sweet
                > Adelines have huge numbers in many of their choruses. From what I
                > see at their conventions, they are not bound by many of the rules
                > that the BHS is. They seem to really have fun with it and take
                > presentation to another level. Maybe we could actually learn
                > something from our sisters in harmony and do the same.
                >
                > In closing, my brothers (and sisters), I love you. I love the
                > society in which we are a part of. It is so great to sing with
                > others at a high level to express ourselves. I am so honored to be a
                > part of this great orginazation. It is a large part of
                > what "defines" me. This message was not meant to offend, but rather
                > just to offer a different view. I hope it will be recieved as such.
                >
                > Keep the whole world singing!
                >
                > Adam Haggart
                > Saltaires Show Chorus Lead
                > Wasatch Front Y.I.H Chairman
                > Salt Lake City, UT
                >
              • ausleadjohn
                Well, this approach and attitude is sure to have new members showing up in droves! Who could resist? Cue what I said in my last post about no need to draw
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
                  Well, this approach and attitude is sure to have new members showing
                  up in droves! Who could resist?

                  Cue what I said in my last post about no need to draw lines in the
                  sand... try inclusion and sharing, instead of exclusion and division.

                  I have an inkling about which way may be more successful for the
                  future.

                  John.


                  --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bell" <mike@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Wrong.
                  >
                  > Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as
                  renaissance madrigals are
                  > a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian
                  Chant (another a-
                  > cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result
                  from evolution of the
                  > chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or
                  Baroque Cantatas? No,
                  > a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is
                  not as big as the one for
                  > rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.
                  >
                  > The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and
                  obscure it's beauty with
                  > "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try
                  to present another
                  > argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't
                  hold up to examination
                  > in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data
                  showing that we can preserve
                  > the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach
                  Boys or any others,
                  > let's see it.
                  >
                  > Mike Bell
                  >
                • i_sing_barbershop_music
                  Yes, it is true that the Benedictine monks of Santo Domingo de Silos did have a triple platinum album in the early to mid ninteies, followed by a less
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
                    Yes, it is true that the Benedictine monks of Santo Domingo de Silos
                    did have a triple platinum album in the early to mid ninteies,
                    followed by a less succsessful sequel. But in the world of gregorian
                    chants or a cappella music in general, it is quite the anomaly.
                    Also, the chants were evolutionary compared to chants in the "old
                    days", but that is neither here nor there.

                    Really, if you want to get more people interested in barbershop and
                    keep our hobby alive, the approach is simple. Sing songs that people
                    want to hear and sing them well. We have a hobby that is AWESOME and
                    should be much more marketable then it is, and the "four guys in
                    striped shirts and hats" was good back in the day, but doesn't work
                    as well anymore. I like the fact the the society has become much
                    more welcoming towards younger members, because for the longest
                    time, they weren't. At least that is my perception.

                    This is ALL just a matter of perception. Everything changes over
                    time, and some are just more resistent to change than others.

                    Adam Haggart


                    --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bell" <mike@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Wrong.
                    >
                    > Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as
                    renaissance madrigals are
                    > a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian
                    Chant (another a-
                    > cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result
                    from evolution of the
                    > chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or
                    Baroque Cantatas? No,
                    > a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is
                    not as big as the one for
                    > rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.
                    >
                    > The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and
                    obscure it's beauty with
                    > "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try
                    to present another
                    > argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't
                    hold up to examination
                    > in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data
                    showing that we can preserve
                    > the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the
                    Beach Boys or any others,
                    > let's see it.
                    >
                    > Mike Bell
                    >
                    > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "i_sing_barbershop_music"
                    <adamhaggart@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Barbershop music is a great american artform. But like any
                    artform,
                    > > it evolves or it dies. Orchestral music progressed from
                    renassiance
                    > > to romantic to 20th century and beyond. Rap has "evolved" from
                    the
                    > > likes of Run DMC, DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince to 50 Cent,
                    > > Eminem, and Kanye West. (I realize this is not the kind of crowd
                    I
                    > > am addressing, but I am just trying to make a point.) You take
                    any
                    > > almost any musical artform and see that it has evolved over the
                    > > years to what it is today.
                    > >
                    > > However, with change, then comes resistance. Controversy. Open
                    > > retaliation. The audience detested Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring"
                    on
                    > > opening night, but later became one of the world's most
                    performed
                    > > ballets. Many thought that Biz Markie was just making strange
                    silly
                    > > noises, but now is known as the grandfather of beatboxing and
                    has a
                    > > huge following. (especially across the pond) OC Times sang Beach
                    Boy
                    > > tunes (incredibly well) and it turned the barbershop world
                    against
                    > > each other. Is Surfer Girl barbershop? Does "Took the T-Bird
                    Away"
                    > > have enough 7th chords? These songs aren't old enough...etc.
                    > >
                    > > I realize that our Society is actively engaged in the
                    preservation
                    > > of our artform. But in order to survive, we must be actively
                    > > involved in the evolution of this wonderful "hobby". (I say
                    hobby
                    > > with restraint as it is really an obsession for me and many
                    others)
                    > > I love singing "Keep the Whole world Singing" at the end of
                    every
                    > > chorus rehearsal. It really gets me hungry for tag singing and
                    gives
                    > > me a great feeling that lasts the drive home. It is great to
                    throw
                    > > down on a "My Wild Irish Rose" for singing valentines and just
                    to
                    > > have fun. But I also really enjoy singing (attempting)Timmy
                    > > Waurick's part on Cruella Deville. Where can we find balance?
                    Where
                    > > can I (and you) turn for peace?
                    > >
                    > > I guess what I am really trying to say is the world outgrew the
                    > > renassiance period. I don't want the "world" to continue to
                    outgrow
                    > > barbershop harmony. Most people think of four old guys in
                    striped
                    > > shirts and hats singing barbershop, and when they see OC Times,
                    > > Vocal Spectrum, Realtime, or even the Westminster Chorus (to
                    name a
                    > > few) they are suprised and enthralled. They are turned on to our
                    > > artform and want to be a part of it, even if it is just as a
                    > > spectator.
                    > >
                    > > I understand that many of our older members have turned away
                    from
                    > > barbershop because of the continual distancing from what is
                    > > regaurded as "traditional". But you can't tell me that you can
                    sit
                    > > down and listen to the Westminster Chorus sing "Their Hearts
                    were
                    > > full of Spring" and not get a little teary. Or that you can't
                    enjoy
                    > > Vocal Spectrum and Gas House Gang just ripping the head off of
                    > > Scarbourough Fair. Regardless of what age you are. I hope to not
                    > > offend too many by saying, "So what?" So what if there aren't 75
                    7th
                    > > chords and the song the arrangement was based on was created in
                    the
                    > > 80's, 90's, or heaven forbid, this decade? As long as it is sung
                    > > well, barbershop is great...no matter how old the song (or
                    > > performer) is.
                    > >
                    > > As a young person in barbershop, I promise that I will never
                    stop
                    > > singing "the old songs." Never. There is too much juicy goodness
                    in
                    > > them to do so. I would like to expand on that and try other
                    things
                    > > too. I would like to be able to talk over my chrousmates in a
                    > > competition and not be penalized for it. (If we had dialogue) If
                    I
                    > > felt compelled to do a broadway musical for my quartet's or
                    > > choruses's set for competition, then by golly, why not? The
                    Sweet
                    > > Adelines have huge numbers in many of their choruses. From what
                    I
                    > > see at their conventions, they are not bound by many of the
                    rules
                    > > that the BHS is. They seem to really have fun with it and take
                    > > presentation to another level. Maybe we could actually learn
                    > > something from our sisters in harmony and do the same.
                    > >
                    > > In closing, my brothers (and sisters), I love you. I love the
                    > > society in which we are a part of. It is so great to sing with
                    > > others at a high level to express ourselves. I am so honored to
                    be a
                    > > part of this great orginazation. It is a large part of
                    > > what "defines" me. This message was not meant to offend, but
                    rather
                    > > just to offer a different view. I hope it will be recieved as
                    such.
                    > >
                    > > Keep the whole world singing!
                    > >
                    > > Adam Haggart
                    > > Saltaires Show Chorus Lead
                    > > Wasatch Front Y.I.H Chairman
                    > > Salt Lake City, UT
                    > >
                    >
                  • Lauren House
                    Well stated, excellent post on the topic! Harmoniously, in full agreement. Lauren House Reno, Nevada _____ From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
                      Well stated, excellent post on the topic!

                      Harmoniously, in full agreement.

                      Lauren House
                      Reno, Nevada

                      _____

                      From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      i_sing_barbershop_music
                      Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 9:45 AM
                      To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [bbshop] Re: Question of Suitability of Arrangement



                      Barbershop music is a great american artform. But like any artform,
                      it evolves or it dies. Orchestral music progressed from renassiance
                      to romantic to 20th century and beyond. Rap has "evolved" from the
                      likes of Run DMC, DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince to 50 Cent,
                      Eminem, and Kanye West. (I realize this is not the kind of crowd I
                      am addressing, but I am just trying to make a point.) You take any
                      almost any musical artform and see that it has evolved over the
                      years to what it is today.

                      However, with change, then comes resistance. Controversy. Open
                      retaliation. The audience detested Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" on
                      opening night, but later became one of the world's most performed
                      ballets. Many thought that Biz Markie was just making strange silly
                      noises, but now is known as the grandfather of beatboxing and has a
                      huge following. (especially across the pond) OC Times sang Beach Boy
                      tunes (incredibly well) and it turned the barbershop world against
                      each other. Is Surfer Girl barbershop? Does "Took the T-Bird Away"
                      have enough 7th chords? These songs aren't old enough...etc.

                      I realize that our Society is actively engaged in the preservation
                      of our artform. But in order to survive, we must be actively
                      involved in the evolution of this wonderful "hobby". (I say hobby
                      with restraint as it is really an obsession for me and many others)
                      I love singing "Keep the Whole world Singing" at the end of every
                      chorus rehearsal. It really gets me hungry for tag singing and gives
                      me a great feeling that lasts the drive home. It is great to throw
                      down on a "My Wild Irish Rose" for singing valentines and just to
                      have fun. But I also really enjoy singing (attempting)Timmy
                      Waurick's part on Cruella Deville. Where can we find balance? Where
                      can I (and you) turn for peace?

                      I guess what I am really trying to say is the world outgrew the
                      renassiance period. I don't want the "world" to continue to outgrow
                      barbershop harmony. Most people think of four old guys in striped
                      shirts and hats singing barbershop, and when they see OC Times,
                      Vocal Spectrum, Realtime, or even the Westminster Chorus (to name a
                      few) they are suprised and enthralled. They are turned on to our
                      artform and want to be a part of it, even if it is just as a
                      spectator.

                      I understand that many of our older members have turned away from
                      barbershop because of the continual distancing from what is
                      regaurded as "traditional". But you can't tell me that you can sit
                      down and listen to the Westminster Chorus sing "Their Hearts were
                      full of Spring" and not get a little teary. Or that you can't enjoy
                      Vocal Spectrum and Gas House Gang just ripping the head off of
                      Scarbourough Fair. Regardless of what age you are. I hope to not
                      offend too many by saying, "So what?" So what if there aren't 75 7th
                      chords and the song the arrangement was based on was created in the
                      80's, 90's, or heaven forbid, this decade? As long as it is sung
                      well, barbershop is great...no matter how old the song (or
                      performer) is.

                      As a young person in barbershop, I promise that I will never stop
                      singing "the old songs." Never. There is too much juicy goodness in
                      them to do so. I would like to expand on that and try other things
                      too. I would like to be able to talk over my chrousmates in a
                      competition and not be penalized for it. (If we had dialogue) If I
                      felt compelled to do a broadway musical for my quartet's or
                      choruses's set for competition, then by golly, why not? The Sweet
                      Adelines have huge numbers in many of their choruses. From what I
                      see at their conventions, they are not bound by many of the rules
                      that the BHS is. They seem to really have fun with it and take
                      presentation to another level. Maybe we could actually learn
                      something from our sisters in harmony and do the same.

                      In closing, my brothers (and sisters), I love you. I love the
                      society in which we are a part of. It is so great to sing with
                      others at a high level to express ourselves. I am so honored to be a
                      part of this great orginazation. It is a large part of
                      what "defines" me. This message was not meant to offend, but rather
                      just to offer a different view. I hope it will be recieved as such.

                      Keep the whole world singing!

                      Adam Haggart
                      Saltaires Show Chorus Lead
                      Wasatch Front Y.I.H Chairman
                      Salt Lake City, UT



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Michael Bell
                      John, I was not advocating an approach to membership or retention. I was questioning a hypothesis ( evolve or die ) that many seem to view as axiomatic. That
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
                        John,

                        I was not advocating an approach to membership or retention. I was questioning a
                        hypothesis ("evolve or die") that many seem to view as axiomatic. That hypothesis doesn't
                        make sense to me. If we were a vocal jazz organization with shrinking membership would
                        we assume that by including gangsta rap, or madrigals, or barbershop we could reverse
                        the trend?

                        I'm not drawing lines in the sand. I'm not excluding anyone. I'm asking that we take a
                        more thoughtful look at what we are preserving, and how best to accomplish our shared
                        goal.

                        Mike Bell



                        --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "ausleadjohn" <newelljs@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Well, this approach and attitude is sure to have new members showing
                        > up in droves! Who could resist?
                        >
                        > Cue what I said in my last post about no need to draw lines in the
                        > sand... try inclusion and sharing, instead of exclusion and division.
                        >
                        > I have an inkling about which way may be more successful for the
                        > future.
                        >
                        > John.
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Bell" <mike@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Wrong.
                        > >
                        > > Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as
                        > renaissance madrigals are
                        > > a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian
                        > Chant (another a-
                        > > cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result
                        > from evolution of the
                        > > chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or
                        > Baroque Cantatas? No,
                        > > a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is
                        > not as big as the one for
                        > > rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.
                        > >
                        > > The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and
                        > obscure it's beauty with
                        > > "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try
                        > to present another
                        > > argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't
                        > hold up to examination
                        > > in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data
                        > showing that we can preserve
                        > > the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach
                        > Boys or any others,
                        > > let's see it.
                        > >
                        > > Mike Bell
                        > >
                        >
                      • super mario
                        Mike, If you have data showing that we CAN T preserve the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others, let s see it.
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
                          Mike,
                          If you have data showing that we CAN'T preserve the barbershop style by including "simplistic" pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others, let's see it. Logical fallacies work both ways, not just where you want them to.

                          Also, does anyone know of anyone advocating the elimination of the old songs? Didn't think so.

                          Mario Hernandez-Gerety
                          Bass - Vertigo
                          2007 RMD 3rd Place Quartet
                          2007 RMD Novice Quartet Champions

                          PS As a member of the Westminster Chapter, I have personally seen OC Times ring the snot out of more old songs than you can shake a stick at. These guys can ring anything and ring it anywhere. They love the old songs and respect the roots of our style more than most people in this society. Just because they sing some new stuff and push the envelope doesn't mean they don't appreciate where it all came from.


                          To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                          From: mike@...
                          Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 19:23:49 +0000
                          Subject: [bbshop] Re: Question of Suitability of Arrangement




















                          Wrong.



                          Barbershop music is a style of music . In much the same way as renaissance madrigals are

                          a style of music. In the last decade groups specializing Gregorian Chant (another a-

                          cappella style) have sold millions of CD's. Did these sales result from evolution of the

                          chant style? Did the world outgrow Chant or Medieval polyphony or Baroque Cantatas? No,

                          a sizable audience still exists for these styles. This audience is not as big as the one for

                          rap, but it is an audience numbering in the millions.



                          The world will forget barbershop when we forget barbershop and obscure it's beauty with

                          "evolutionary" changes. Styles fall in and out of favor. Don't try to present another

                          argument for "evolve or die" based upon your own bias. It doesn't hold up to examination

                          in the light of logical, informed opinion. If you've got data showing that we can preserve

                          the barbershop style by including simplistic pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others,

                          let's see it.



























                          _________________________________________________________________
                          Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power.
                          http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Michael Bell
                          Since Mario is bringing specific groups into this discussion about style, I ve answered his email privately. MB ... simplistic pop tunes by the Beach Boys or
                          Message 12 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
                            Since Mario is bringing specific groups into this discussion about
                            style, I've answered his email privately.

                            MB

                            --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, super mario <supermario91@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Mike,
                            > If you have data showing that we CAN'T preserve the barbershop style by including
                            "simplistic" pop tunes by the Beach Boys or any others, let's see it. Logical fallacies work
                            both ways, not just where you want them to.
                            >
                            > Also, does anyone know of anyone advocating the elimination of the old songs? Didn't
                            think so.
                            >
                            > Mario Hernandez-Gerety
                            > Bass - Vertigo
                            > 2007 RMD 3rd Place Quartet
                            > 2007 RMD Novice Quartet Champions
                            >
                            > PS As a member of the Westminster Chapter, I have personally seen OC Times ring the
                            snot out of more old songs than you can shake a stick at. These guys can ring anything
                            and ring it anywhere. They love the old songs and respect the roots of our style more
                            than most people in this society. Just because they sing some new stuff and push the
                            envelope doesn't mean they don't appreciate where it all came from.
                            >
                            >
                            > To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                            > From: mike@...
                            > Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 19:23:49 +0000
                            > Subject: [bbshop] Re: Question of Suitability of Arrangement
                          • Shelley Herman
                            ... You re right about OC Times. They sing everything well. What a lot of people have a problem with is: Singing unbarbershop (i.e. Beach boys) in CONTEST.
                            Message 13 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
                              > PS As a member of the Westminster Chapter, I have personally seen OC Times
                              > ring the snot out of more old songs than you can shake a stick at. These guys
                              > can ring anything and ring it anywhere. They love the old songs and respect
                              > the roots of our style more than most people in this society. Just because
                              > they sing some new stuff and push the envelope doesn't mean they don't
                              > appreciate where it all came from.


                              You're right about OC Times. They sing everything well. What a lot of
                              people have a problem with is: Singing unbarbershop (i.e. Beach boys) in
                              CONTEST.

                              Sing what you want on shows, sing barbershop in CONTEST!

                              Shelley Herman
                            • MARQUIS652@aol.com
                              Adam, Thanks for your contributions to this list. I too, started singing barbershop when I was young. (14 years old)... I was on the stage crrew at my high
                              Message 14 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
                                Adam,

                                Thanks for your contributions to this list.

                                I too, started singing barbershop when I was young. (14 years old)...
                                I was on the stage crrew at my high school, heard the local chapter
                                and was hooked by THE SOUND. I only knew a couple of the songs.
                                THE SOUND is what got me excited.

                                I get excited by O.C.Times, Max Q, GHG, Interstate Rivals and many, many
                                others.
                                Not so much for what they sing, but for how they sing. THE SOUND.

                                Now that I am older and have my own kids who are singing barbershop,
                                I decided to ask them what they like most about barbershop. You know
                                what, it turns out to be THE SOUND, the fellowship and the chance to perform
                                and entertain and to make people happy with our music.

                                Keep singing harmony, I hope in the Barbershop style.

                                Jay Hawkins
                                Bass - Four Aces

                                and a few other groups and a PROUD Member
                                of The Southern Gateway Chorus of Cincinnati.



                                ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • willhamblet
                                Well, here s something a bit different: an old f*** who isn t a Kibber. I ve belonged to the Society for over 35 years. I initially joined because I heard
                                Message 15 of 15 , Nov 2, 2007
                                  Well, here's something a bit different: an old f*** who isn't a
                                  Kibber. I've belonged to the Society for over 35 years. I initially
                                  joined because I heard The Beach Boys singing (a cappella) "Their
                                  Hearts Were Full of Spring." I didn't know they had ripped it off
                                  the Dick Reynolds arrangement for the Four Freshman. I just
                                  thought, "Boy, would I love to do something like that." At the time,
                                  the only thing that was "something like that" was SPEBSQSA. The
                                  first Barbershop album I ever purchased was The Sidewinders… and my
                                  favorite cut was Buzz Haeger's arrangement of "The Way You Look
                                  Tonight" (definitely not something that would have passed the
                                  Arrangement category in those days). I know there were a lot of my
                                  contemporaries (early 70's) who enjoyed The Hi-Lo's much more than
                                  The Buffalo Bills and my current all-time favorite BHS quartets
                                  would probably be Keepsake, Gas House Gang & Realtime (none of them
                                  particularly "oldies but goodies").

                                  At any rate, I definitely prefer Barbershop (musically) NOW as
                                  opposed to when I joined. On the other hand, I didn't care much for
                                  what Aaron Dale did to The Beach Boys songs… but then I consider
                                  Brian Wilson sacrosanct. And that's my problem!!!

                                  Will
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