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Re: [bbshop] Re: Recent judging questions

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  • Alexander Boltenko
    Rich, I noticed that recently (since last Spring contest) judges are not giving their score sheets to the chorus. Was there a change in policy and where do
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 1, 2007
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      Rich,

      I noticed that recently (since last Spring contest) judges are not giving
      their score sheets to the chorus. Was there a change in policy and where do
      these score sheets end up? In the past I was told they were tossed if no
      one asked for them. They were useful to recall a particular judge comments
      at evals. Why do you keep them now?

      On 11/1/07, Rich Hasty <rich_hasty@...> wrote:
      >
      > Chas...
      >
      > Good post. If you were in Denver this past summer, you would have
      > seen the members of the Music category "huddle" every so often. These
      > happened when what was presented raised questions regarding the
      > lowering of scores due to perceived rules infractions. The actual
      > scores were not discussed.
      >
      > I was on that panel in Denver as I was a few weeks ago at the EVG
      > District Fall Convention. In EVG, we also "huddled" from time to
      > time. Again, we DID NOT discuss the amount, if any, to lower a score.
      >
      > As a point of clarification, we discussed this very issue at our
      > category school this past summer (where we spent about 35 hours
      > training together). We now have to denote every single infraction,
      > whether it is 1 point or 20, on our score sheets, on the back of the
      > score sheets that we turn in, and on the front of the score sheets
      > that we turn in. This is new to us, and we are still finding our way.
      > Your patients are much appreciated. The intent, by the spring of
      > 2008, is to have asterisks placed by the total music score on the
      > public score sheets so that people will be better informed of what
      > went into a score.
      >
      > I hope that this helps.
      >
      > Rich
      >
      >
      > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Charles D. Denzler" <justdoit110@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi everyone,
      > >
      > > Coming out of lurk mode to throw something out for your
      > > consideration. Two recent instances of possibly questionable
      > judging (in
      > > JAD and M-AD contests) triggered a thought in my mind.
      > >
      > > I have always assumed that our judges, being so highly
      > trained to
      > > evaluate our performances as we present them on the day of a
      > contest, are
      > > expected to render their judgements as individuals with no outside
      > > influence. Indeed, most of the time their scores are remarkably
      > uniform
      > > and consistent, which is to be expected.
      > >
      > > What was reported in the two instances cited above was that
      > the
      > > judges were observed to get in a huddle, presumably to come to some
      > > agreement as to how to score a particular performance.
      > >
      > > I submit that this huddling may have resulted in a lower
      > final
      > > score for the contestants than what they might have received by
      > simply
      > > adding up individual judges' scores. I further submit that this is
      > > rather unfair to the contestants involved. Just my humble
      > opinion. Chas
      > >
      > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Charles Denzler~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      > > Fiction & Fact from Uncle John's Bathroom Reader:
      > > Each of the Statue of Liberty's fingernails weighs 100
      > > pounds.
      > > ~~~~~~~~~It's great singing with the Bryn Mawr PA
      > Mainliners~~~~~~~~~
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      --
      Alexander Boltenko
      aboltenko@...
      VP for Marketing and Public Relations
      KALAMAZOO BARBERSHOP CHORUS
      Cell 269-501-SING
      http://barbershopharmony.org
      Like my domain name?
      Get your ALIAS account from our website!
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • T
      The mere fact that the judges had to huddle indicates a real grey area. When contestants skate near that area they take a risk. Of course, if their performance
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 1, 2007
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        The mere fact that the judges had to huddle indicates a real grey area. When
        contestants skate near that area they take a risk. Of course, if their
        performance is nowhere near barbershop, the judges have to decide under the
        new guidelines what is acceptable.

        I understand that the SG set was fantabulous and the audience loved it. I
        understand all the hard work that went into it and trying to make sure it
        would clear the judges guidelines. Well, it didn't work and I, for one,
        can't fault the judges for huddling and ultimately deciding it wasn't
        barbershop, which it wasn't. If you want to win, sing a heartfelt rendition
        of "Sweet Adeline". It will score big time. If you think that's boring, you
        don't belong, Icarus.

        To give you an example, take the Gas House Gang - one of the most
        entertaining quartets ever. When they got in medalist range, they decided to
        bag the jokes, the costumes, the schtick - put on tuxes, sang "Bright Was
        The Night", and won the gold.

        - Tom Campbell
      • plcmat
        I am glad Rich brought this up. My quartet ran into this new MUS category scoring of individual infractions at our district contest this fall. We sang a song
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 1, 2007
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          I am glad Rich brought this up.

          My quartet ran into this new MUS category scoring of individual
          infractions at our district contest this fall. We sang a song that
          had been evaluated by a MUS judge at our request in June and given a
          thumbs up, was performed in Denver with no apparent penalty, and yet
          received a 10 point deduction from each MUS judge on the panel.
          (And before anyone asks, we sang the notes that were on the paper as
          far as I know).

          As it turned out it only influenced our placement by one position,
          but what we found alarming was hearing that the International BOD
          went to the MUS category after International and effectively told
          them that they weren't adjudicating the category as written. The
          Contest Administrators were asked to provide a scoresheet where
          individual infractions could be noted. And we learned that some MUS
          judges had never laid eyes on this new scoresheet until they judged
          their first contest this fall. I also witnessed a few of these
          huddles (one after someone sang "Breaking Up Is Hard To Do"!), and I
          am thinking maybe there was one after our performance as well.

          So while the latest C&J manual containing the category descriptions
          is dated April 2007, the de facto rules were changed without the
          knowledge of competitors between Denver and the fall contests. I
          find this situation, and the awkward situation our MUS judges were
          put into, rather disturbing. I AM NOT BLAMING THE MUSIC JUDGES.
          The one we had for our evaluation was incredibly straight and
          forthright about what had happened. If I am wrong about what
          transpired between Denver and this fall someone will set me straight
          I am sure.

          If indeed the umbrella has been narrowed slightly I think denoting
          the individual infractions is a good idea so we can all learn
          together, but I find narrowing the umbrella without telling any of
          the competitors to be pretty upsetting.

          FYI, the song in question was Katie Farrell's arrangement of They
          Say It's Wonderful. You can find Rounders singing it on YouTube if
          you want to hear it, or maybe you heard it in the finals in Denver.

          I was planning to write to the BOD about this and not post anything
          about it on the Harmonet. I will still write the BOD but the way
          this discussion is going I thought this information would be
          pertinent right now.

          Steve Nester
          Sounds of Concord
          Bass, Concord eXpress


          --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Hasty" <rich_hasty@...> wrote:
          >
          > Chas...
          >
          > Good post. If you were in Denver this past summer, you would have
          > seen the members of the Music category "huddle" every so often.
          These
          > happened when what was presented raised questions regarding the
          > lowering of scores due to perceived rules infractions. The actual
          > scores were not discussed.
          >
          > I was on that panel in Denver as I was a few weeks ago at the EVG
          > District Fall Convention. In EVG, we also "huddled" from time to
          > time. Again, we DID NOT discuss the amount, if any, to lower a
          score.
          >
          > As a point of clarification, we discussed this very issue at our
          > category school this past summer (where we spent about 35 hours
          > training together). We now have to denote every single infraction,
          > whether it is 1 point or 20, on our score sheets, on the back of
          the
          > score sheets that we turn in, and on the front of the score sheets
          > that we turn in. This is new to us, and we are still finding our
          way.
          > Your patients are much appreciated. The intent, by the spring of
          > 2008, is to have asterisks placed by the total music score on the
          > public score sheets so that people will be better informed of what
          > went into a score.
          >
          > I hope that this helps.
          >
          > Rich
          >
          >
          > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Charles D. Denzler" <justdoit110@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi everyone,
          > >
          > > Coming out of lurk mode to throw something out for your
          > > consideration. Two recent instances of possibly questionable
          > judging (in
          > > JAD and M-AD contests) triggered a thought in my mind.
          > >
          > > I have always assumed that our judges, being so highly
          > trained to
          > > evaluate our performances as we present them on the day of a
          > contest, are
          > > expected to render their judgements as individuals with no
          outside
          > > influence. Indeed, most of the time their scores are remarkably
          > uniform
          > > and consistent, which is to be expected.
          > >
          > > What was reported in the two instances cited above was
          that
          > the
          > > judges were observed to get in a huddle, presumably to come to
          some
          > > agreement as to how to score a particular performance.
          > >
          > > I submit that this huddling may have resulted in a lower
          > final
          > > score for the contestants than what they might have received by
          > simply
          > > adding up individual judges' scores. I further submit that this
          is
          > > rather unfair to the contestants involved. Just my humble
          > opinion. Chas
          > >
          > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Charles Denzler~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          > > Fiction & Fact from Uncle John's Bathroom Reader:
          > > Each of the Statue of Liberty's fingernails weighs
          100
          > > pounds.
          > > ~~~~~~~~~It's great singing with the Bryn Mawr PA
          > Mainliners~~~~~~~~~
          > >
          >
        • Montana Jack Fitzpatrick
          Sort of amazing isn t it that the MUS category is now deducting points for stylistic deviations. We haven t seen anything like that since-----well-----the
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 1, 2007
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            Sort of amazing isn't it that the MUS category is now deducting points for stylistic deviations. We haven't seen anything like that since-----well-----the arrangement category that had it's unfortunate demise about 15 years ago.
            In addition to deducting points for deviations, they also added plus points for innovations. However, since the category was destroyed and "re-written" (allowing almost every song ever written to "become" barbershop), everything is an innovation---so---no need for that at all.
            Montana Jack, keeping the faith and keeping it barbershop



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Rich Hasty
            Now that s a healthy perspective. Rich Deductor of points for style infractions for seven years. I just never had to explain every point that was subtracted
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 1, 2007
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              Now that's a healthy perspective.

              Rich

              Deductor of points for style infractions for seven years. I just never
              had to explain every point that was subtracted from a holistic score. I
              want to judge the impact of music without having to discourage the
              performer.


              --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "Montana Jack Fitzpatrick" <mtjack@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Sort of amazing isn't it that the MUS category is now deducting
              points for stylistic deviations. We haven't seen anything like that
              since-----well-----the arrangement category that had it's unfortunate
              demise about 15 years ago.
              > In addition to deducting points for deviations, they also added plus
              points for innovations. However, since the category was destroyed
              and "re-written" (allowing almost every song ever written to "become"
              barbershop), everything is an innovation---so---no need for that at all.
              > Montana Jack, keeping the faith and keeping it barbershop
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Dave Duncan
              Actually, to perhaps nit-pick a little, I d like to re-visit your statements here. The mere fact that the judges had to huddle indicates a real grey area.
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 2, 2007
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                Actually, to perhaps nit-pick a little, I'd like to re-visit your statements
                here.



                "The mere fact that the judges had to huddle indicates a real grey area.
                When contestants skate near that area they take a risk." Yup. Couldn't
                have said it any better. With great risk comes the possibility of great
                reward OR great disappointment. "Of course, if their performance is
                nowhere near barbershop, the judges have to decide under the new guidelines
                what is acceptable." What is Barbershop and what is acceptable are two
                entirely different issues. A performance can be completely Barbershop and
                still completely UNACCEPTABLE.





                By saying "I understand that the SG set was fantabulous and the audience
                loved it. I understand all the hard work that went into it and trying to
                make sure it would clear the judges guidelines." I have to infer that you
                were indeed not present at the performance, but thanks for recognizing what
                went into creating it. It did indeed "clear" numerous Certified Judges
                guidelines long before it ever hit the stage.



                You continue on to say "Well, it didn't work" If you weren't there, how
                would you know ? If you were there, you would know that it DID work for the
                audience, EXACTLY as it was planned. " and I, for one, can't fault the
                judges for huddling and ultimately deciding it wasn't barbershop," I'm glad
                you assign no fault to the Judges here. The confusion resulted from the
                presentation not being in the "typical" Barbershop contest format of
                "applause-song-applause-song-applause" and that resulted in a discussion to
                determine if one or two songs had been sung. As for the huddle, at no time
                did any Judge ever decide or say that it was not Barbershop. There was some
                discussion about song "construction issues" but that's all. In the final
                analysis, as we already knew, no rules had been broken. Maybe you should
                stick with their decision instead of rendering your own separate opinion of
                "which it wasn't."



                "If you want to win, sing a heartfelt rendition of "Sweet Adeline". It will
                score big time." A heartfelt rendition of Sweet Adeline can be magnificent
                if performed well but, if that's ALL we ever sang at contest and there was
                no innovation, it WOULD be a little tiresome, don't you think?



                As for "If you think that's boring, you don't belong, Icarus." I belong and
                have for some 31 years now. The ink on my application is clearly dry. I've
                been a Certified Judge. I've sung with three different International
                Champion Choruses and will categorically state this was one of the
                highlights of my Barbershop "career." Sometimes it's just a matter of
                perspective and sometimes people need a little shove to change their
                perspective.



                Contrary to the wishes of his father, Icarus flew too close to the sun,
                melted his wings and paid the ultimate price for it, and although we may
                have flown closer to the sun that we realized, our wings have not melted and
                we'll be flying again soon, having paid our price and singing Barbershop all
                the while.



                Thanks for caring enough to have and share an opinion.



                DD





                From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of T
                Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 9:20 AM
                To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [bbshop] Re: Recent judging questions



                The mere fact that the judges had to huddle indicates a real grey area. When
                contestants skate near that area they take a risk. Of course, if their
                performance is nowhere near barbershop, the judges have to decide under the
                new guidelines what is acceptable.

                I understand that the SG set was fantabulous and the audience loved it. I
                understand all the hard work that went into it and trying to make sure it
                would clear the judges guidelines. Well, it didn't work and I, for one,
                can't fault the judges for huddling and ultimately deciding it wasn't
                barbershop, which it wasn't. If you want to win, sing a heartfelt rendition
                of "Sweet Adeline". It will score big time. If you think that's boring, you
                don't belong, Icarus.
                To give you an example, take the Gas House Gang - one of the most
                entertaining quartets ever. When they got in medalist range, they decided to
                bag the jokes, the costumes, the schtick - put on tuxes, sang "Bright Was
                The Night", and won the gold.

                - Tom Campbell





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