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A little help please

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  • Ehink557@aol.com
    At one time in our ever changing catagory of music in comp. it was considered non-stylistic to sing music with a lot of triplets and penalties were imposed. Is
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 3, 2007
      At one time in our ever changing catagory of music in comp. it was
      considered non-stylistic to sing music with a lot of triplets and penalties were
      imposed.

      Is this still in force?

      Ed Hinkley





      ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
      http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • GSBMedalMusic@comcast.net
      ... Ehink557@aol.com queries....... ... The old rules applied to drag triplets i.e. 3 beats sung over the space of 2 in a meter (4/4 or cut time). Then there
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 3, 2007
        -------------- Original message ----------------------
        Ehink557@... queries.......
        > At one time in our ever changing catagory of music in comp. it was
        > considered non-stylistic to sing music with a lot of triplets and penalties were
        > imposed.
        > Is this still in force?

        The old rules applied to "drag triplets" i.e. 3 beats sung over the space of 2 in a meter (4/4 or cut time).

        Then there are the triplets that come in a 12/8 meter, such as MacNamara's Band and, yes, the 1979 Championship set performed by Grandma's Boys. "When the Toy Soldiers March on Parade" is written in 12/8 as well (with the rhythmic emphasis on the 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th of the 12/8 measure creates a 4/4 feel, but the underlying subdivided rhythm is 4 triplets per measure.).

        Drag triplets, though, are no longer "penalized" to the best of my knowledge.

        Married to a MUS judge (and I don't play one on TV either),
        Helen Giallombardo, music theory geek
      • Rich Hasty
        Triplets have never been considered non-stylistic in the MUSIC category. Maybe in the Arrangement category that ended fifteen years ago. Triplets are fine
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 3, 2007
          Triplets have never been considered non-stylistic in the MUSIC
          category. Maybe in the Arrangement category that ended fifteen years
          ago. Triplets are fine today.

          Rich -- Music Judge

          --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, Ehink557@... wrote:
          >
          > At one time in our ever changing catagory of music in comp. it was
          > considered non-stylistic to sing music with a lot of triplets and
          penalties were
          > imposed.
          >
          > Is this still in force?
          >
          > Ed Hinkley
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-
          new AOL at
          > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Tom Emmert
          If written as 4/4, and a swing eights rule applied, it will sound the same - won t it? Tom ... MacNamara s Band and, yes, the 1979 Championship set performed
          Message 4 of 14 , Sep 4, 2007
            If written as 4/4, and a "swing eights" rule applied, it will sound the
            same - won't it?

            Tom

            Helen sez:
            --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, GSBMedalMusic@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > Then there are the triplets that come in a 12/8 meter, such as
            MacNamara's Band and, yes, the 1979 Championship set performed by
            Grandma's Boys. "When the Toy Soldiers March on Parade" is written in
            12/8 as well (with the rhythmic emphasis on the 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th
            of the 12/8 measure creates a 4/4 feel, but the underlying subdivided
            rhythm is 4 triplets per measure.).
            >
            ...
          • jetriple@rockwellcollins.com
            1) Triplets have never been considered non-stylistic 2) Triplets are fine today. That is most happy news! James Triplett ... [Non-text portions of this message
            Message 5 of 14 , Sep 4, 2007
              1) Triplets have never been considered non-stylistic
              2) Triplets are fine today.

              That is most happy news!

              James Triplett

              bbshop@yahoogroups.com wrote on 09/03/2007 07:32:04 PM:

              > Triplets have never been considered non-stylistic in the MUSIC
              > category. Maybe in the Arrangement category that ended fifteen years
              > ago. Triplets are fine today.
              >
              > Rich -- Music Judge
              >
              > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, Ehink557@... wrote:
              > >
              > > At one time in our ever changing catagory of music in comp. it was
              > > considered non-stylistic to sing music with a lot of triplets and
              > penalties were
              > > imposed.
              > >
              > > Is this still in force?
              > >
              > > Ed Hinkley
              > >
              > >
              > >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Giallombardo
              ... As someone raised in a jazz household (with a lot of swing-beat music playing in our living room) plus years of concert band training where I played a
              Message 6 of 14 , Sep 4, 2007
                At 09:02 AM 9/4/2007, Tom Emmert asks:

                >If written as 4/4, and a "swing eights" rule applied, it will sound the
                >same - won't it?
                >
                >Tom

                As someone raised in a "jazz household" (with a lot of swing-beat
                music playing in our living room) plus years of concert band training
                where I played a lot of Ralph Vaughn Williams (Folk Song Suites -
                think Irish/English folk tunes written in 12/8, etc.), I think of
                these rhythms with a totally different feel.

                Eighth note rhythms (written "straight" for either easy read .... or
                laziness on the part of the writers (think the old pen-and-paper
                days, where it was "extra work" to write out a lot of dotted
                rhythms)) are simply played or performed *differently* than a 12/8
                triplet feel (quarter note-eighth note in a triplet).

                Now you *could* make a good case that maybe the actual *duration* of
                these rhythms is pretty equal and .... you might be right. But
                MacNamara's Band ("now me name is MacNamara; I'm the leader of the
                band") just FEELS a lot different to me than a jazz swing beat song
                in 4/4. I perform them differently. It's subtle but tangible.

                - Helen Giallombardo
              • Keith Richmond
                Actually Rich is correct. I recall getting dinged in the old arrangement category for there being a triplet in Tom Gentry s arrangement of Nobody s
                Message 7 of 14 , Sep 4, 2007
                  Actually Rich is correct. I recall getting dinged in the old
                  arrangement category for there being a triplet in Tom Gentry's
                  arrangement of "Nobody's Sweetheart". Only a minus 1 but still a ding.
                  And kind of silly, because (in this case) it worked very well within
                  that context in the arrangement.

                  Keith R

                  jetriple@... wrote:
                  >
                  > 1) Triplets have never been considered non-stylistic
                  > 2) Triplets are fine today.
                  >
                  > That is most happy news!
                  >
                  > James Triplett
                  >
                  > bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> wrote on
                  > 09/03/2007 07:32:04 PM:
                  >
                  > > Triplets have never been considered non-stylistic in the MUSIC
                  > > category. Maybe in the Arrangement category that ended fifteen years
                  > > ago. Triplets are fine today.
                  > >
                  > > Rich -- Music Judge
                  > >
                  > > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > Ehink557@... wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > At one time in our ever changing catagory of music in comp. it was
                  > > > considered non-stylistic to sing music with a lot of triplets and
                  > > penalties were
                  > > > imposed.
                  > > >
                  > > > Is this still in force?
                  > > >
                  > > > Ed Hinkley
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Giallombardo
                  ... Actually being the music theory/notation geek that I am ;-), these rhythms are NOT equal in that a dotted eighth with sixteenth rhythm (which is KINDA what
                  Message 8 of 14 , Sep 4, 2007
                    >
                    >Now you *could* make a good case that maybe the actual *duration* of
                    >these rhythms is pretty equal and .... you might be right.

                    Actually being the music theory/notation geek that I am ;-),
                    these rhythms are NOT equal in that a dotted eighth with sixteenth
                    rhythm (which is KINDA what the swing "double-eighth" note rhythm
                    becomes in a swing beat "feel) is a 3/4 to 1/4 ratio (in a one beat
                    duration) with a different beat (dare I say... accent) emphasis while
                    a quarter-note/eighth note written as a triplet in a 12/8 meter is a
                    2/3 to 1/3 ratio (in a one beat duration) with a mostly downbeat emphasis.

                    How's that for using math to explain this? ;-)
                    (Yeah, I know ..... I'm just asking for trouble from the math geeks
                    out there in HarmonetLand!).

                    Enough from me on this topic for tonight ..........

                    "Bed!" (quote from hotel guest in "The Pest in the House")...

                    - Helen G.
                  • Ben McDaniel
                    ...a dotted eighth with sixteenth rhythm (which is KINDA what the swing double-eighth note rhythm becomes in a swing beat feel) is a 3/4 to 1/4 ratio...
                    Message 9 of 14 , Sep 5, 2007
                      "...a dotted eighth with sixteenth rhythm (which is KINDA what the swing
                      "double-eighth" note rhythm becomes in a swing beat "feel) is a 3/4 to 1/4
                      ratio..."

                      Swing is usually much closer to a 2/3 and 1/3 ratio. At fast tempi (or
                      tempos), it gets closer to 1/2 and 1/2 (light swing), and at slower tempos,
                      it gets closer to 3/4 and 1/4 (heavy swing).

                      Groups that have trouble with swing should probably think of it as 2/3 and
                      1/3 at most tempos. At slow tempos, the stress is on the second eighth note.
                      At medium tempos, the stress is on the second and fourth quarters (in 4/4
                      swing). At fast tempos, the stress is on the third quarter (in 4/4 swing).
                      In barbershop, considering our current obsession with long lines and smooth
                      sound, having the stress on the third quarter even at slower tempos can help
                      to construct those long phrases.

                      These are all just general rules and exceptions can always be found. For
                      example, listen to how Paul Desmond likes to perform swing. He often uses a
                      light swing even at medium tempos (for example, in the song "Take Five").

                      I'm no expert, so if any of you are, feel free to correct me where I'm
                      wrong.

                      Ben McDaniel
                      Newton, Kansas


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Joe De Felice
                      Ditto for Ride The Railroad in which the same triplet occurred several time and got dinged each time. ;-( Joe
                      Message 10 of 14 , Sep 5, 2007
                        Ditto for "Ride The Railroad" in which the same triplet occurred
                        several time and got "dinged" each time. ;-(
                        Joe

                        At 9/4/2007 11:05 PM, Keith Richmond wrote:
                        >Actually Rich is correct. I recall getting dinged in the old
                        >arrangement category for there being a triplet in Tom Gentry's
                        >arrangement of "Nobody's Sweetheart". Only a minus 1 but still a ding.
                        >And kind of silly, because (in this case) it worked very well within
                        >that context in the arrangement.
                        >
                        >Keith R
                        >
                        >jetriple@... wrote:
                        > >
                        > > 1) Triplets have never been considered non-stylistic
                        > > 2) Triplets are fine today.
                        > >
                        > > That is most happy news!
                        > >
                        > > James Triplett
                        > >
                        > > bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> wrote on
                        > > 09/03/2007 07:32:04 PM:
                        > >
                        > > > Triplets have never been considered non-stylistic in the MUSIC
                        > > > category. Maybe in the Arrangement category that ended fifteen years
                        > > > ago. Triplets are fine today.
                        > > >
                        > > > Rich -- Music Judge
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > > Ehink557@... wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > At one time in our ever changing catagory of music in comp. it was
                        > > > > considered non-stylistic to sing music with a lot of triplets and
                        > > > penalties were
                        > > > > imposed.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Is this still in force?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Ed Hinkley
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • mteacher75
                        ... I hate to disagree with one of my favorite net posters, but swinging eighths are in fact a 12/8 construct. (This is why triplet fills work so nicely in
                        Message 11 of 14 , Sep 5, 2007
                          --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, Giallombardo <GSBMedalMusic@...> wrote:

                          > Actually being the music theory/notation geek that I am ;-),
                          > these rhythms are NOT equal in that a dotted eighth with sixteenth
                          > rhythm (which is KINDA what the swing "double-eighth" note rhythm
                          > becomes in a swing beat "feel)

                          I hate to disagree with one of my favorite 'net posters, but swinging
                          eighths are in fact a 12/8 construct. (This is why triplet fills
                          work so nicely in swing.) It used to be common practice among music
                          publishers (who had no real experience with jazz and who, in all
                          likelihood, didn't know any better) to write arrangements of swing
                          tunes for traditional bands, orchestras, and choirs using the dotted
                          eighth-sixteenth pattern to indicate swinging eighths. This is
                          incorrect, and if played as written will sound stilted and almost
                          militaristic in character. Of course, hardly anyone played them as
                          written, which created a second problem: generations of school and
                          amateur musicians who couldn't properly execute genuine dotted eighth-
                          sixteenth rhythms as found in baroque music, etc. Most modern
                          publishers (thankfully!) now properly indicate swinging eighths with
                          a note at the top of the score indicating that two eighth notes =
                          quarter note + eighth note, all under a triplet bracket.

                          Having said that, swing leaves a lot of leeway for interpretation -
                          some jazz ballads will have a barely perceptible sense of swing, just
                          slightly more laid back than straight eighths. Some later big band
                          recordings (think Nelson Riddle's orchestrations for Sinatra) used a
                          swing feel that almost approached the 3-to-1 ratio of a dotted eighth-
                          sixteenth pattern in the ride cymbal. On the whole, though, the
                          12/8 "triplet" feel of swing is maintained as the basic framework.

                          As to the difference in feel between "McNamara's Band" (in 6/8) and,
                          say, "Come Fly With Me" (a swinging 4/4, or 12/8 feel), much of that
                          can be attributed to the natural rhythmic accents. 6/8 marches
                          emphasize downbeats - (1 and 4 of 1 through 6), whereas swing places
                          slight emphasis on the third beat of each implied triplet group, or
                          the second of each "swung" pair of eighth notes. Poorly interpreted
                          swing can often wind up sounding marchlike in character - how many
                          times have we seen barbershoppers pound the snot (a technical term I
                          heard from a judge once ;) ) out of a swing tune, stripping away any
                          semblance of jazz that might have been implied by the arrangement?

                          Anyway, it does my heart good to hear swing discussed on the ol'
                          Harmonet! As long as we're fitting jazz tunes under that infamous
                          umbrella, we should be swinging 'em with style!

                          - Chris Andrade
                          The Coastal Chordsmen
                          Bridgeport Chapter K-001
                        • Bill Byrd
                          ... Bill Byrd [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 14 , Sep 5, 2007
                            On 9/5/07, Joe De Felice <showglowjoe@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Ditto for "Ride The Railroad" in which the same triplet occurred
                            > several time and got "dinged" each time. ;-(
                            > Joe
                            >
                            > Funny story about "Ride the Railroad" it was written by my favorite
                            > Barbershop composer, Bob Disney, One year at district, after the Commodore
                            > Chorus had performed this song, a judge asked us if we were sure that the
                            > composer had wanted all those triplets in the song. Bob was sitting there
                            > with our director (Rick Taylor- My Hero). Rick said why don't you ask
                            > him?....
                            >











                            Bill Byrd


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ed Hinkley
                            Anyone have a source for the MUSIC for Pretend you don t love her, my heart ? I have the lyrics Ed Hinkley [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 22, 2009
                              Anyone have a source for the MUSIC for "Pretend you don't love her, my heart"?

                              I have the lyrics


                              Ed Hinkley

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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