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Is-ry-el ?

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  • Joe Johnson
    I have always wondered why, in The First Noel , the word Israel is traditionally pronounced Is-ry-el . We don t say it that way any other time, so why do
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 30, 2007
      I have always wondered why, in "The First Noel", the word "Israel" is traditionally pronounced "Is-ry-el". We don't say it that way any other time, so why do we say that way in this particular song?


      JOE JOHNSON
      House of Joseph Music
      http://www.bbsmusic.com

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tim Buell
      I would guess that pronunciation came from slurring the vowels. It seems that it would really be pronounced as Iz-rah-ell , but in turning the the vowel from
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 30, 2007
        I would guess that pronunciation came from slurring the vowels. It
        seems that it would really be pronounced as "Iz-rah-ell", but in
        turning the the vowel from "ah" to "ell", the unseen "e" creeps in.
        Without it, you have to insert a glottal stop to distinguish the
        syllables.

        --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, Joe Johnson <bbshopmusic@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have always wondered why, in "The First Noel", the word "Israel" is
        traditionally pronounced "Is-ry-el". We don't say it that way any other
        time, so why do we say that way in this particular song?
        >
        >
        > JOE JOHNSON
        > House of Joseph Music
        > http://www.bbsmusic.com
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Doug Treff
        Re-sending without spamish characteristics... ... Subject: Re: [bbshop] Is-ry-el ? Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:48:22 -0400 From: Doug Treff
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 30, 2007
          Re-sending without spamish characteristics...

          -------- Original Message --------
          Subject: Re: [bbshop] Is-ry-el ?
          Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:48:22 -0400
          From: Doug Treff <doug@...>
          To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
          References: <768336.41563.qm@...>



          Because it rhymes better with "Noel"???

          I seem to recall other songs where the word pronunciation has been
          altered slightly to make the rhyming pattern work.

          An example of this in other music:
          "The Merry Old Land of Oz" is a song from the "The Wizard of Oz". There
          are not very many English words that rhyme with "Oz" (homophone of
          "ahz"), so the song has a number of words that are similar, and whose
          pronunciation is altered to rhyme: "strahz" instead of "straws", "brahz"
          instead of "brass" (or perhaps "bronze"), "clahz" instead of "claws", etc.

          Here's a fun game for all of us: Give us an example of a song
          (Barbershop or other) where the pronunciation of a word is commonly
          altered to make the rhyming scheme work better.


          Doug Treff
          Dundalk, MD Chapter


          Joe Johnson wrote:
          >
          > I have always wondered why, in "The First Noel", the word "Israel" is
          > traditionally pronounced "Is-ry-el". We don't say it that way any
          > other time, so why do we say that way in this particular song?
          >
        • Jeremy Reynolds
          One that springs to my mind is Stars Fell on Alabama . They rhymed bama with hammer and drama. Jeremy Reynolds ... From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 30, 2007
            One that springs to my mind is "Stars Fell on Alabama". They rhymed
            bama with hammer and drama.

            Jeremy Reynolds

            -----Original Message-----
            From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Doug Treff
            Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 9:12 AM
            To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [bbshop] Is-ry-el ?



            Re-sending without spamish characteristics...

            -------- Original Message --------
            Subject: Re: [bbshop] Is-ry-el ?
            Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:48:22 -0400
            From: Doug Treff <doug@... <mailto:doug%40treff.us> >
            To: bbshop@yahoogroups. <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> com
            References: <768336.41563.
            <mailto:768336.41563.qm%40web39510.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
            qm@...>

            Because it rhymes better with "Noel"???

            I seem to recall other songs where the word pronunciation has been
            altered slightly to make the rhyming pattern work.

            An example of this in other music:
            "The Merry Old Land of Oz" is a song from the "The Wizard of Oz". There
            are not very many English words that rhyme with "Oz" (homophone of
            "ahz"), so the song has a number of words that are similar, and whose
            pronunciation is altered to rhyme: "strahz" instead of "straws", "brahz"

            instead of "brass" (or perhaps "bronze"), "clahz" instead of "claws",
            etc.

            Here's a fun game for all of us: Give us an example of a song
            (Barbershop or other) where the pronunciation of a word is commonly
            altered to make the rhyming scheme work better.

            Doug Treff
            Dundalk, MD Chapter

            Joe Johnson wrote:
            >
            > I have always wondered why, in "The First Noel", the word "Israel" is
            > traditionally pronounced "Is-ry-el". We don't say it that way any
            > other time, so why do we say that way in this particular song?
            >







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Drew Ellis
            Hey Joe - I can t speak to all of the others you mention, but I can tell you that Is-ry-el is the exact pronunciation in the Biblical Greek, which was koine
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 30, 2007
              Hey Joe -

              I can't speak to all of the others you mention, but I can tell you
              that Is-ry-el is the exact pronunciation in the Biblical Greek, which
              was "koine" or street-language, as opposed to the more formal
              Classical Greek of many philosophers of the day 1800-2200 yrs ago.
              I'm fairly sure that the Latin pronunciation is a derivative of that
              as well as many other borrowed words from Greek.

              For example, in the "O Come Emmanuel" that The GHG recorded on "Some
              Children See Him" - it begins with Latin chant, and most likely kept
              that pronunciation as part of it. Incidentally, that is by far my
              most favorite Christmas song! Very humbling, very Biblical, and
              heck - it's the Gas House Gang!

              Drew
              Nashville, TN



              --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, Joe Johnson <bbshopmusic@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have always wondered why, in "The First Noel", the word "Israel"
              is
              traditionally pronounced "Is-ry-el". We don't say it that way any
              other
              time, so why do we say that way in this particular song?
              >
              >
              > JOE JOHNSON
              > House of Joseph Music
              > http://www.bbsmusic.com
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Joe De Felice
              But why do they sing ad-oh-line vs ad-el-line ..... huh, huh, huh ;-) Well my guess is the beer makes em do it????? Joe
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 30, 2007
                But why do they sing ad-oh-line vs ad-el-line ..... huh, huh, huh ;-)
                Well my guess is the beer makes 'em do it?????
                Joe

                At 8/30/2007 08:23 AM, Jeremy Reynolds wrote:
                >One that springs to my mind is "Stars Fell on Alabama". They rhymed
                >bama with hammer and drama.
                >
                >Jeremy Reynolds
                >
                >-----Original Message-----
                >From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                >Of Doug Treff
                >Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 9:12 AM
                >To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [bbshop] Is-ry-el ?
                >
                >
                >
                >Re-sending without spamish characteristics...
                >
                >-------- Original Message --------
                >Subject: Re: [bbshop] Is-ry-el ?
                >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:48:22 -0400
                >From: Doug Treff <doug@... <mailto:doug%40treff.us> >
                >To: bbshop@yahoogroups. <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> com
                >References: <768336.41563.
                ><mailto:768336.41563.qm%40web39510.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
                >qm@...>
                >
                >Because it rhymes better with "Noel"???
                >
                >I seem to recall other songs where the word pronunciation has been
                >altered slightly to make the rhyming pattern work.
                >
                >An example of this in other music:
                >"The Merry Old Land of Oz" is a song from the "The Wizard of Oz". There
                >are not very many English words that rhyme with "Oz" (homophone of
                >"ahz"), so the song has a number of words that are similar, and whose
                >pronunciation is altered to rhyme: "strahz" instead of "straws", "brahz"
                >
                >instead of "brass" (or perhaps "bronze"), "clahz" instead of "claws",
                >etc.
                >
                >Here's a fun game for all of us: Give us an example of a song
                >(Barbershop or other) where the pronunciation of a word is commonly
                >altered to make the rhyming scheme work better.
                >
                >Doug Treff
                >Dundalk, MD Chapter
                >
                >Joe Johnson wrote:
                > >
                > > I have always wondered why, in "The First Noel", the word "Israel" is
                > > traditionally pronounced "Is-ry-el". We don't say it that way any
                > > other time, so why do we say that way in this particular song?
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • Tom Meier
                My barbershop favorite has always been in the Eyes medley where they rhyme the moment I saw your with Oh, what a destroyer. But the touchstone is William
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 30, 2007
                  My barbershop favorite has always been in the Eyes medley where they rhyme
                  "the moment I saw your" with "Oh, what a destroyer."



                  But the touchstone is William Blake, Songs of Experience:

                  "Tiger, tiger burning bright

                  In the forests of the night,

                  What immortal hand or eye

                  Could frame thy fearful symmetry."



                  Your call.





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Keith Richmond
                  Actually it is often sung that way. Another example is in O come o come Emmanuel . Keith R
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 30, 2007
                    Actually it is often sung that way. Another example is in "O come o
                    come Emmanuel".

                    Keith R


                    Joe Johnson wrote:
                    >
                    > I have always wondered why, in "The First Noel", the word "Israel" is
                    > traditionally pronounced "Is-ry-el". We don't say it that way any
                    > other time, so why do we say that way in this particular song?
                    >
                    > JOE JOHNSON
                    > House of Joseph Music
                    > http://www.bbsmusic.com <http://www.bbsmusic.com>
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                  • garsinger
                    I ve always assumed it was an attempt to do a Hebrew-ish pronunciation of the word. I m not familiar with conversational Hebrew as it s currently spoken in
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 1, 2007
                      I've always assumed it was an attempt to do a "Hebrew-ish"
                      pronunciation of the word. I'm not familiar with conversational
                      Hebrew as it's currently spoken in Israel, but in modern "American
                      Prayerbook Hebrew", I most often hear it pronounced either "Yees-rah-
                      ell" or "Yees-roy-ell" (with a slight roll of the "r").

                      Dave

                      --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, Keith Richmond <keithr386@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Actually it is often sung that way. Another example is in "O come
                      o
                      > come Emmanuel".
                      >
                      > Keith R
                      >
                      >
                      > Joe Johnson wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I have always wondered why, in "The First Noel", the
                      word "Israel" is
                      > > traditionally pronounced "Is-ry-el". We don't say it that way any
                      > > other time, so why do we say that way in this particular song?
                      > >
                      > > JOE JOHNSON
                      > > House of Joseph Music
                      > > http://www.bbsmusic.com <http://www.bbsmusic.com>
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Jade Walker
                      I can dust off my knowledge of Latin. Using the German system of pronouncing Latin, the ae in caeli would be pronounced as a long i (which is
                      Message 10 of 15 , Sep 2, 2007
                        I can dust off my knowledge of Latin. Using the German system of pronouncing
                        Latin, the "ae" in "caeli" would be pronounced as a long "i" (which is
                        interesting, since most sung Latin uses the Italian system and pronounces
                        "ae" as a long "a"). Perhaps whoever was first singing it pronounced it
                        Latin-style.

                        Then again, there's this:
                        http://www.afoolintheforest.com/2003/12/how_do_we_prono.html. Assuming
                        everything we read on the Web is true.

                        Jade Walker
                        jadewalker@...
                        Or else it's a tradition, or an old charter, or something.

                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com]
                        > On Behalf Of garsinger
                        > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 3:50 PM
                        > To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [bbshop] Re: Is-ry-el ?
                        >
                        >
                        > I've always assumed it was an attempt to do a "Hebrew-ish"
                        > pronunciation of the word. I'm not familiar with conversational
                        > Hebrew as it's currently spoken in Israel, but in modern "American
                        > Prayerbook Hebrew", I most often hear it pronounced either
                        > "Yees-rah- ell" or "Yees-roy-ell" (with a slight roll of the "r").
                        >
                        > Dave
                        >
                        > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, Keith Richmond <keithr386@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Actually it is often sung that way. Another example is in "O come
                        > o
                        > > come Emmanuel".
                        > >
                        > > Keith R
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Joe Johnson wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I have always wondered why, in "The First Noel", the
                        > word "Israel" is
                        > > > traditionally pronounced "Is-ry-el". We don't say it that way any
                        > > > other time, so why do we say that way in this particular song?
                        > > >
                        > > > JOE JOHNSON
                        > > > House of Joseph Music
                        > > > http://www.bbsmusic.com <http://www.bbsmusic.com>
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Joe De Felice
                        After speaking with an Hebrew scholar friend, he says the Hebrew pronunciation is Yis-rah-el. Perhaps the turning of the ?diphthong? toward the el sound
                        Message 11 of 15 , Sep 2, 2007
                          After speaking with an Hebrew scholar friend, he says the Hebrew
                          pronunciation is Yis-rah-el. Perhaps the turning of the ?diphthong?
                          toward the "el" sound produces the the 'y' sound vs the 'ah' sound??

                          Joe

                          At 9/2/2007 01:34 PM, Jade Walker wrote:
                          >I can dust off my knowledge of Latin. Using the German system of
                          >pronouncing Latin, the "ae" in "caeli" would be pronounced as a long
                          >"i" (which is interesting, since most sung Latin uses the Italian
                          >system and pronounces "ae" as a long "a"). Perhaps whoever was
                          >first singing it pronounced it Latin-style.
                          >
                          >Then again, there's this:
                          >http://www.afoolintheforest.com/2003/12/how_do_we_prono.html.
                          >Assuming everything we read on the Web is true.
                          >
                          >Jade Walker
                          >jadewalker@...
                          >Or else it's a tradition, or an old charter, or something.
                          >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com]
                          > > On Behalf Of garsinger
                          > > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 3:50 PM
                          > > To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: [bbshop] Re: Is-ry-el ?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > I've always assumed it was an attempt to do a "Hebrew-ish"
                          > > pronunciation of the word. I'm not familiar with conversational
                          > > Hebrew as it's currently spoken in Israel, but in modern "American
                          > > Prayerbook Hebrew", I most often hear it pronounced either
                          > > "Yees-rah- ell" or "Yees-roy-ell" (with a slight roll of the "r").
                          > >
                          > > Dave
                          > >
                          > > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, Keith Richmond <keithr386@...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Actually it is often sung that way. Another example is in "O come
                          > > o
                          > > > come Emmanuel".
                          > > >
                          > > > Keith R
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Joe Johnson wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I have always wondered why, in "The First Noel", the
                          > > word "Israel" is
                          > > > > traditionally pronounced "Is-ry-el". We don't say it that way any
                          > > > > other time, so why do we say that way in this particular song?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > JOE JOHNSON
                          > > > > House of Joseph Music
                          > > > > http://www.bbsmusic.com <http://www.bbsmusic.com>
                          > > > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > >
                        • T
                          Sorry, but it s about time to end this thread. There have been some interesting observations and links, but one thing you have to keep in mind. Language,
                          Message 12 of 15 , Sep 2, 2007
                            Sorry, but it's about time to end this thread. There have been some
                            interesting observations and links, but one thing you have to keep in mind.
                            Language, spelling, and pronunciation, is constantly in flux. There is no
                            correct way. The word has been in existance for more than 3,000 years.
                          • Charles May
                            My wife s family speaks fluent Hebrew, and they pronounce it Yis-rah-ell . Chuck May Director, Montclair, NJ Bass, Big Apple Chorus ...
                            Message 13 of 15 , Sep 2, 2007
                              My wife's family speaks fluent Hebrew, and they pronounce it "Yis-rah-ell".

                              Chuck May
                              Director, Montclair, NJ
                              Bass, Big Apple Chorus


                              >From: "garsinger" <garsinger@...>
                              >To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: [bbshop] Re: Is-ry-el ?
                              >Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 19:49:47 -0000
                              >
                              >I've always assumed it was an attempt to do a "Hebrew-ish"
                              >pronunciation of the word. I'm not familiar with conversational
                              >Hebrew as it's currently spoken in Israel, but in modern "American
                              >Prayerbook Hebrew", I most often hear it pronounced either "Yees-rah-
                              >ell" or "Yees-roy-ell" (with a slight roll of the "r").
                              >
                              >Dave
                              >
                              >--- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, Keith Richmond <keithr386@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Actually it is often sung that way. Another example is in "O come
                              >o
                              > > come Emmanuel".
                              > >
                              > > Keith R
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Joe Johnson wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I have always wondered why, in "The First Noel", the
                              >word "Israel" is
                              > > > traditionally pronounced "Is-ry-el". We don't say it that way any
                              > > > other time, so why do we say that way in this particular song?
                              > > >
                              > > > JOE JOHNSON
                              > > > House of Joseph Music
                              > > > http://www.bbsmusic.com <http://www.bbsmusic.com>
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >

                              _________________________________________________________________
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                            • Joe De Felice
                              Huh??? Are you the Mr. T of TV fame etc?? If so you forgot to show us your police badge. Threads will die when people have no more they want to say. Until
                              Message 14 of 15 , Sep 2, 2007
                                Huh??? Are you the "Mr. T" of TV fame etc??
                                If so you forgot to show us your police badge.
                                Threads will die when people have no more they want to say.
                                Until we have definitive answers or suggestions, or we give up
                                on getting same, the thread SHOULD go on.

                                Where did you come up with this state of flux on spelling and
                                pronunciation anyway??? Does that mean "erl" is OK in place of "oil"?
                                "youse" instead of "you" (Y'all for our Southern members), etc.??
                                Or do you prefer something like ebonics which is an outgrowth of that
                                kind of thinking/

                                Sorry but it's end of summer blues for me.

                                Joe


                                At 9/2/2007 03:13 PM, T wrote:
                                >Sorry, but it's about time to end this thread. There have been some
                                >interesting observations and links, but one thing you have to keep in mind.
                                >Language, spelling, and pronunciation, is constantly in flux. There is no
                                >correct way. The word has been in existance for more than 3,000 years.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • EGPLEAD98@aol.com
                                Hey Joe, Look at the bright side ??? only 3 more months till christmas !!!! SANTA JOE !!!! :) ERIC G PHILLIPS _EGPLEAD98@AOL.COM_
                                Message 15 of 15 , Sep 2, 2007
                                  Hey Joe,
                                  Look at the bright side ??? only 3 more months till
                                  christmas !!!!

                                  SANTA JOE !!!! :)


                                  ERIC G PHILLIPS
                                  _EGPLEAD98@..._ (mailto:EGPLEAD98@...)

                                  LOOKING FOR A TENOR,BASS,BARI !!!
                                  M-AD



                                  ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
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