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Chinese Seventh Question

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  • Larry Powell
    Can someone please explain what is a Chinese Seventh and how to recognize it? You may respond privately is you wish. Thanks, Larry, Bari w/The Orange Blossom
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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      Can someone please explain what is a Chinese Seventh and how to recognize
      it? You may respond privately is you wish.

      Thanks,

      Larry,
      Bari w/The Orange Blossom Chorus
      Orlando, Fl.
    • Tom Emmert
      Steve Langford correctly directed Larry to: http://www.spebsqsafwd.org/html/dictionary.html ... and while this may be the most common manifestation of a
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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        Steve Langford correctly directed Larry to:
        http://www.spebsqsafwd.org/html/dictionary.html

        ... and while this may be the most common manifestation of
        a "Chinese" 7th, any inversion which places the top two voices a
        major second (ie a whole step) apart meets the definition I've always
        used: A Chinese Seventh is one in which the upper two notes form the
        first notes of "Chopsticks".

        Also note that the top two voices may turn out to be lead-tenor,
        tenor-lead, or tenor-baritone. In any case, they need to be equally
        balanced.

        Tom in Cincy
        barit1@...
        pondering the Malay 13th


        --- In bbshop@y..., "Larry Powell" <lwpowell@k...> wrote:
        > Can someone please explain what is a Chinese Seventh and how to
        recognize
        > it? You may respond privately is you wish.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Larry,
        > Bari w/The Orange Blossom Chorus
        > Orlando, Fl.
      • Steve Langford
        Tom, et al.: Now I am confused! :-) I passed that definition along without first having questioned it. But I think that it may be an incorrect definition.
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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          Tom, et al.:

          Now I am confused! :-) I passed that definition along without
          first having questioned it. But I think that it may be an incorrect
          definition. What do *you* think?:

          According to the inversion numbering suggested at such a site as
          http://www.creativekeyboard.com/dec01/chordvoicings.html, and speaking for
          convenience in the key of C, I construct


          Inversion Bass Bari Lead Tenor
          --------- ----- ----- ----- -----
          Root C E G Bb
          1st E G Bb C <--- Is this what the
          2nd G Bb C E SPEBSQSA Dictionary(*1)
          3rd Bb C E G may be calling a 2nd inversion?
          -------------------------------
          *1. http://www.spebsqsafwd.org/html/dictionary.html



          Might "The second inversion of a 7th chord, where the tenor note is under
          the lead note" be corrected to read: "The first inversion of a 7th chord,
          where the tenor note is under the lead note". In the 2nd inversion, the
          major 2nd is buried within the chord, not being "exposed" at the top of the
          chord, as in the 1st inversion.

          Tom, you said "A Chinese Seventh is one in which the upper two
          notes form the first notes of 'Chopsticks'". But that construction is
          represented by the 1st-inversion in the table above, not by the 2nd. But
          yours is a broader definition, in that it does not designate at what
          octave the Bass and Bari notes are sung, for such a chord to meet your
          definition.

          >Also note that the top two voices may turn out to be lead-tenor,
          >tenor-lead, or tenor-baritone. In any case, they need to be equally balanced.
          --
          Interesting.

          You also said: "Steve Langford correctly directed Larry to: ...
          ". But I wish that I had first puzzled out just what a 2nd inversion
          (which, according to the above table, does not put the "'Chopsticks'
          Interval" at the top of the chord) is, before sharing that resource. My
          apologies.

          Steve

          >Tom in Cincy
          >barit1@...
          >pondering the Malay 13th
          >
          >
          >--- In bbshop@y..., "Larry Powell" <lwpowell@k...> wrote:
          > > Can someone please explain what is a Chinese Seventh and how to
          >recognize
          > > it? You may respond privately is you wish.
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > >
          > > Larry,
          > > Bari w/The Orange Blossom Chorus
          > > Orlando, Fl.
        • barit1@att.net
          Steve et al: The chord you have indicated is (I m 98% sure) the one the SPEBSQSA Dictionary intends to illustrate the Chinese Seventh. The issue is now a
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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            Steve et al:

            The chord you have indicated is (I'm 98% sure) the one the SPEBSQSA Dictionary
            intends to illustrate the Chinese Seventh. The issue is now a matter of
            nomenclature: do the pros call it a 1st or a 2nd inversion? Not being a pro,
            I'll leave the door open.

            [There is a parallel disconnect in naming of overtones: The 1st overtone (ie
            the octave of a reference pitch) is called the 2nd harmonic in physicists'
            circles.]

            --
            Tom Emmert
            barit1@...
            http://harmonize.com/HeartOfOhio/nuance.htm
            http://wmkvfm.org/emmert.htm
            Subject to change without notice
            >
            >
            > Inversion Bass Bari Lead Tenor
            > --------- ----- ----- ----- -----
            > Root C E G Bb
            > 1st E G Bb C <--- Is this what the
            > 2nd G Bb C E SPEBSQSA Dictionary(*1)
            > 3rd Bb C E G may be calling a 2nd inversion?
            > -------------------------------
            > *1. http://www.spebsqsafwd.org/html/dictionary.html
            >
            >
          • barit1@att.net
            First vs. second inversion? According to: http://www2.smu.edu/totw/invert.htm ...the first inversion is one in which the bottom voice is the third of the
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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              First vs. second inversion? According to:
              http://www2.smu.edu/totw/invert.htm

              ...the first inversion is one in which the bottom voice is the third of the
              chord. Some other sites like guitar-primer.com confirm this. Thus FWD's
              definition should read "First inversion", not "second inversion".

              --
              Tom Emmert
              barit1@...
              http://harmonize.com/HeartOfOhio/nuance.htm
              http://wmkvfm.org/emmert.htm
              Discovering yet again what an outstanding research tool is Google.com

              >
              > Tom, et al.:
              >
              > Now I am confused! :-) I passed that definition along without
              > first having questioned it. But I think that it may be an incorrect
              > definition. What do *you* think?:
              >
              > According to the inversion numbering suggested at such a site as
              > http://www.creativekeyboard.com/dec01/chordvoicings.html, and speaking for
              > convenience in the key of C, I construct
              >
              >
              > Inversion Bass Bari Lead Tenor
              > --------- ----- ----- ----- -----
              > Root C E G Bb
              > 1st E G Bb C <--- Is this what the
              > 2nd G Bb C E SPEBSQSA Dictionary(*1)
              > 3rd Bb C E G may be calling a 2nd inversion?
              > -------------------------------
              > *1. http://www.spebsqsafwd.org/html/dictionary.html
              >
              >
              >
              > Might "The second inversion of a 7th chord, where the tenor note is under
              > the lead note" be corrected to read: "The first inversion of a 7th chord,
              > where the tenor note is under the lead note". In the 2nd inversion, the
              > major 2nd is buried within the chord, not being "exposed" at the top of the
              > chord, as in the 1st inversion.
              >
              > Tom, you said "A Chinese Seventh is one in which the upper two
              > notes form the first notes of 'Chopsticks'". But that construction is
              > represented by the 1st-inversion in the table above, not by the 2nd. But
              > yours is a broader definition, in that it does not designate at what
              > octave the Bass and Bari notes are sung, for such a chord to meet your
              > definition.
              >
              > >Also note that the top two voices may turn out to be lead-tenor,
              > >tenor-lead, or tenor-baritone. In any case, they need to be equally balanced.
              > --
              > Interesting.
              >
              > You also said: "Steve Langford correctly directed Larry to: ...
              > ". But I wish that I had first puzzled out just what a 2nd inversion
              > (which, according to the above table, does not put the "'Chopsticks'
              > Interval" at the top of the chord) is, before sharing that resource. My
              > apologies.
              >
              > Steve
              >
              > >Tom in Cincy
              > >barit1@...
              > >pondering the Malay 13th
              > >
              > >
              > >--- In bbshop@y..., "Larry Powell" <lwpowell@k...> wrote:
              > > > Can someone please explain what is a Chinese Seventh and how to
              > >recognize
              > > > it? You may respond privately is you wish.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks,
              > > >
              > > > Larry,
              > > > Bari w/The Orange Blossom Chorus
              > > > Orlando, Fl.
              >
            • Lionel E Dotson
              Going up: 5th-3rd-7th-Root...my forum nickname...sol-mi-li-do. ... -- Ed Dotson-ChordWorshipper Frank Thorne,Cardinal ledotson@comcast.net
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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                Going up: 5th-3rd-7th-Root...my forum nickname...sol-mi-li-do.

                Larry Powell wrote:

                > Can someone please explain what is a Chinese Seventh and how to recognize
                > it? You may respond privately is you wish.
                >
                > Thanks,
                >
                > Larry,
                > Bari w/The Orange Blossom Chorus
                > Orlando, Fl.
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > bbshop-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                --

                Ed Dotson-ChordWorshipper
                Frank Thorne,Cardinal
                ledotson@...
              • Steve Langford
                ... -- Very succinctly stated (and I surely hope you re right!), Lionel. But would that not be sol-mi-tay-do, to reflect the flatted 7th rather than the
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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                  At 10:30 AM 11/27/2002 -0500, you wrote:
                  >Going up: 5th-3rd-7th-Root...my forum nickname...sol-mi-li-do.
                  --
                  Very succinctly stated (and I surely hope you're right!), Lionel.
                  But would that not be sol-mi-tay-do, to reflect the flatted 7th rather than
                  the sharpened 6th?

                  Thanks, Steve

                  >Larry Powell wrote:
                  >
                  > > Can someone please explain what is a Chinese Seventh and how to recognize
                  > > it? You may respond privately is you wish.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks,
                  > >
                  > > Larry,
                  > > Bari w/The Orange Blossom Chorus
                  > > Orlando, Fl.
                • John Elving
                  legally speaking, this would have to be a 1st inversion. The root position isn t an inversion at all. It is simply the root position. The first inversion
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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                    "legally" speaking, this would have to be a 1st inversion. The root
                    position isn't an inversion at all. It is simply the root position. The
                    first inversion would be when the 3rd becomes the bottom of the chord
                    spelling, the 2nd inversion when the 5th becomes the bottom of the
                    chord spelling, etc.

                    Sing-cerely & Humm-bly,

                    John Elving mailto:jelving1@...
                    "Shrine of Democracy Chorus"
                    Rapid City, South Dakota


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: barit1@... [mailto:barit1@...]
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 8:00 a
                    To: Steve Langford
                    Cc: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question


                    Steve et al:

                    The chord you have indicated is (I'm 98% sure) the one the SPEBSQSA
                    Dictionary
                    intends to illustrate the Chinese Seventh. The issue is now a matter of
                    nomenclature: do the pros call it a 1st or a 2nd inversion? Not being a
                    pro,
                    I'll leave the door open.

                    [There is a parallel disconnect in naming of overtones: The 1st
                    overtone (ie
                    the octave of a reference pitch) is called the 2nd harmonic in
                    physicists'
                    circles.]

                    --
                    Tom Emmert
                    barit1@...
                    http://harmonize.com/HeartOfOhio/nuance.htm
                    http://wmkvfm.org/emmert.htm
                    Subject to change without notice
                    >
                    >
                    > Inversion Bass Bari Lead Tenor
                    > --------- ----- ----- ----- -----
                    > Root C E G Bb
                    > 1st E G Bb C <--- Is this what the
                    > 2nd G Bb C E SPEBSQSA Dictionary(*1)
                    > 3rd Bb C E G may be calling a 2nd
                    inversion?
                    > -------------------------------
                    > *1. http://www.spebsqsafwd.org/html/dictionary.html
                    >
                    >

                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    bbshop-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Matt Swann
                    ... Of course, if it were just a plain old dominant chord in the key, it would be: re-ti-fa-sol going up Matt Swann Coral Gables, FL Choral Studies at the
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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                      --- In bbshop@y..., Lionel E Dotson <ledotson@c...> wrote:
                      > Going up: 5th-3rd-7th-Root...my forum nickname...sol-mi-li-do.

                      Of course, if it were just a plain old dominant chord in the key, it
                      would be:

                      re-ti-fa-sol going up

                      Matt Swann
                      Coral Gables, FL
                      Choral Studies at the University of Miami
                      Tenor, University of Miami Chorale (ACDA bound in 2003!!)
                    • Lionel E Dotson
                      Yep, or ti-si-re-mi for a 4 oclock chord or ri-do-fi-si for an 8 oclk chord. Twelve per Key. Infinite number of keys-LOL ... -- Ed Dotson-ChordWorshipper Frank
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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                        Yep, or ti-si-re-mi for a 4 oclock chord or ri-do-fi-si for an 8 oclk chord.
                        Twelve per Key. Infinite number of keys-LOL

                        Matt Swann wrote:

                        > --- In bbshop@y..., Lionel E Dotson <ledotson@c...> wrote:
                        > > Going up: 5th-3rd-7th-Root...my forum nickname...sol-mi-li-do.
                        >
                        > Of course, if it were just a plain old dominant chord in the key, it
                        > would be:
                        >
                        > re-ti-fa-sol going up
                        >
                        > Matt Swann
                        > Coral Gables, FL
                        > Choral Studies at the University of Miami
                        > Tenor, University of Miami Chorale (ACDA bound in 2003!!)
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > bbshop-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                        --

                        Ed Dotson-ChordWorshipper
                        Frank Thorne,Cardinal
                        ledotson@...
                      • Lionel E Dotson
                        Doesn t matter Steve, li or tay is the 7th. In a 4:5:6:7 chord, drop the 5th an octave and jump the root an octave and you have 3:5:7:8 or 3/4:5/4:7/4:8/4 or
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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                          Doesn't matter Steve, li or tay is the 7th. In a 4:5:6:7 chord, drop the 5th an
                          octave and jump the root an octave and you have 3:5:7:8 or 3/4:5/4:7/4:8/4 or
                          .75,1.25, 1.75 and 2. The tempered scale is irrelevant to bbshoppers.

                          Steve Langford wrote:

                          > At 10:30 AM 11/27/2002 -0500, you wrote:
                          > >Going up: 5th-3rd-7th-Root...my forum nickname...sol-mi-li-do.
                          > --
                          > Very succinctly stated (and I surely hope you're right!), Lionel.
                          > But would that not be sol-mi-tay-do, to reflect the flatted 7th rather than
                          > the sharpened 6th?
                          >
                          > Thanks, Steve
                          >
                          > >Larry Powell wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > Can someone please explain what is a Chinese Seventh and how to recognize
                          > > > it? You may respond privately is you wish.
                          > > >
                          > > > Thanks,
                          > > >
                          > > > Larry,
                          > > > Bari w/The Orange Blossom Chorus
                          > > > Orlando, Fl.

                          --

                          Ed Dotson-ChordWorshipper
                          Frank Thorne,Cardinal
                          ledotson@...
                        • Frank Leitnaker
                          I ain t no expert but I thought the inversion number reflected what was on the bottom rather than what was on the top, i.e., if the third is on the bottom,
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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                            I ain't no expert but I thought the "inversion number" reflected what
                            was on the bottom rather than what was on the top, i.e., if the third
                            is on the bottom, it is a first inversion and if the fifth is on the
                            bottom, it is a second inversion. Thus, BBS chords are usually
                            (almost always) in "root position" with root in the bass (on the
                            bottom) or in second inversion with the fifth in the bass. As I
                            understand it, inversions originally meant keeping the "lineup" the
                            same, just bringing the bottom voice to the top. So a first inversion
                            would bring the root to the top and give a Chinese seventh but in
                            barbershop, you avoid giving the third to the bass so you give it to
                            the baritone so the bass can have the fifth. Now with the fifth in
                            the bass instead of the third, you call it a second inversion. A
                            configuration of 5,7,R,3 (bass up) would represent a "classic" second
                            inversion. A course, I got all my music theory from the Society and,
                            even if I got it right, it might well not be the same as what they
                            teach in music schools or even in Sweet Adelines.

                            Maybe that's just an oversimplification for us simple minded souls.

                            Frank Leitnaker

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: <barit1@...>
                            To: "Steve Langford" <s@...>
                            Cc: <bbshop@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 4:00 PM
                            Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question


                            > Steve et al:
                            >
                            > The chord you have indicated is (I'm 98% sure) the one the SPEBSQSA
                            Dictionary
                            > intends to illustrate the Chinese Seventh. The issue is now a
                            matter of
                            > nomenclature: do the pros call it a 1st or a 2nd inversion? Not
                            being a pro,
                            > I'll leave the door open.
                            >
                            > [There is a parallel disconnect in naming of overtones: The 1st
                            overtone (ie
                            > the octave of a reference pitch) is called the 2nd harmonic in
                            physicists'
                            > circles.]
                            >
                            > --
                            > Tom Emmert
                            > barit1@...
                            > http://harmonize.com/HeartOfOhio/nuance.htm
                            > http://wmkvfm.org/emmert.htm
                            > Subject to change without notice
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Inversion Bass Bari Lead Tenor
                            > > --------- ----- ----- ----- -----
                            > > Root C E G Bb
                            > > 1st E G Bb C <--- Is this what the
                            > > 2nd G Bb C E SPEBSQSA
                            Dictionary(*1)
                            > > 3rd Bb C E G may be calling a 2nd
                            inversion?
                            > > -------------------------------
                            > > *1. http://www.spebsqsafwd.org/html/dictionary.html
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > bbshop-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • LIONEL DOTSON
                            Who cares what an inversion number is, except no ear theoreticians (grin). When I first heard that chord, about 50 years ago, I thought well, that sure is
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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                              Who cares what an inversion number is, except 'no ear' theoreticians
                              (grin).
                              When I first heard that chord, about 50 years ago, I thought 'well,
                              that sure is perty, root on top, must be a Chinese7th" 'cause
                              everybody knows that if you dig a hole straight down to the other side
                              of the earth you come out in China..so that's what I called it, an
                              upside down or Chinese7th. Maybe someone told me that that was the
                              name but it sure made sense to me. Anybody ever heard of a Growing
                              Girls 7th?(rhetorical question) That is a 5th-7th-root-3rd, tight,
                              where the 7th pops out an octave high and you would swear the tenor
                              was singing it. IfYouHadAllTheWorldAndItsGold on their AllGrownUp CD,
                              the first "desire". I asked Bobby Ernspiker if he doctored the
                              recording, he said "nope they did it all on their own".




                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Frank Leitnaker <fleit@...>
                              Date: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 1:11 pm
                              Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question

                              > I ain't no expert but I thought the "inversion number" reflected what
                              > was on the bottom rather than what was on the top, i.e., if the third
                              > is on the bottom, it is a first inversion and if the fifth is on the
                              > bottom, it is a second inversion. Thus, BBS chords are usually
                              > (almost always) in "root position" with root in the bass (on the
                              > bottom) or in second inversion with the fifth in the bass. As I
                              > understand it, inversions originally meant keeping the "lineup" the
                              > same, just bringing the bottom voice to the top. So a first
                              inversion
                              > would bring the root to the top and give a Chinese seventh but in
                              > barbershop, you avoid giving the third to the bass so you give it to
                              > the baritone so the bass can have the fifth. Now with the fifth in
                              > the bass instead of the third, you call it a second inversion. A
                              > configuration of 5,7,R,3 (bass up) would represent a "classic" second
                              > inversion. A course, I got all my music theory from the Society and,
                              > even if I got it right, it might well not be the same as what they
                              > teach in music schools or even in Sweet Adelines.
                              >
                              > Maybe that's just an oversimplification for us simple minded souls.
                              >
                              > Frank Leitnaker
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: <barit1@...>
                              > To: "Steve Langford" <s@...>
                              > Cc: <bbshop@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 4:00 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question
                              >
                              >
                              > > Steve et al:
                              > >
                              > > The chord you have indicated is (I'm 98% sure) the one the SPEBSQSA
                              > Dictionary
                              > > intends to illustrate the Chinese Seventh. The issue is now a
                              > matter of
                              > > nomenclature: do the pros call it a 1st or a 2nd inversion? Not
                              > being a pro,
                              > > I'll leave the door open.
                              > >
                              > > [There is a parallel disconnect in naming of overtones: The 1st
                              > overtone (ie
                              > > the octave of a reference pitch) is called the 2nd harmonic in
                              > physicists'
                              > > circles.]
                              > >
                              > > --
                              > > Tom Emmert
                              > > barit1@...
                              > > http://harmonize.com/HeartOfOhio/nuance.htm
                              > > http://wmkvfm.org/emmert.htm
                              > > Subject to change without notice
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Inversion Bass Bari Lead Tenor
                              > > > --------- ----- ----- ----- -----
                              > > > Root C E G Bb
                              > > > 1st E G Bb C <--- Is this what the
                              > > > 2nd G Bb C E SPEBSQSA
                              > Dictionary(*1)
                              > > > 3rd Bb C E G may be calling a 2nd
                              > inversion?
                              > > > -------------------------------
                              > > > *1. http://www.spebsqsafwd.org/html/dictionary.html
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > bbshop-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > bbshop-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Charley Garrett
                              I thought it was the major 2nd that was critical, not necessarily who s singing it or what notes the other guys were singing. The way I usually see a major
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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                                I thought it was the major 2nd that was critical, not necessarily who's
                                singing it or what notes the other guys were singing. The way I usually see
                                a major second is between the root and the 7th. Off the top of my head, I
                                can't think of another interval that is a major second. So, I think the
                                tenor is singing the root, and then the lead is a little lower on the 7th.
                                But if they switched notes, then the tenor would be below the lead, and it
                                would still be a chinese 7th, because of the root and 7th being the top 2
                                notes of the chord.

                                But what do I know, eh?


                                Charley Garrett
                                President,
                                Columbus Georgia Chapter

                                114 Saddle Court
                                Cusseta GA 31805
                                (706) 989-3276
                                CharleyG56@...





                                Add this card to your address book

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Steve Langford" <s@...>
                                To: "Tom Emmert" <barit1@...>; <bbshop@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 9:27 AM
                                Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question



                                Tom, et al.:

                                Now I am confused! :-) I passed that definition along without
                                first having questioned it. But I think that it may be an incorrect
                                definition. What do *you* think?:

                                According to the inversion numbering suggested at such a site as
                                http://www.creativekeyboard.com/dec01/chordvoicings.html, and speaking for
                                convenience in the key of C, I construct


                                Inversion Bass Bari Lead Tenor
                                --------- ----- ----- ----- -----
                                Root C E G Bb
                                1st E G Bb C <--- Is this what the
                                2nd G Bb C E SPEBSQSA Dictionary(*1)
                                3rd Bb C E G may be calling a 2nd inversion?
                                -------------------------------
                                *1. http://www.spebsqsafwd.org/html/dictionary.html



                                Might "The second inversion of a 7th chord, where the tenor note is under
                                the lead note" be corrected to read: "The first inversion of a 7th chord,
                                where the tenor note is under the lead note". In the 2nd inversion, the
                                major 2nd is buried within the chord, not being "exposed" at the top of the
                                chord, as in the 1st inversion.

                                Tom, you said "A Chinese Seventh is one in which the upper two
                                notes form the first notes of 'Chopsticks'". But that construction is
                                represented by the 1st-inversion in the table above, not by the 2nd. But
                                yours is a broader definition, in that it does not designate at what
                                octave the Bass and Bari notes are sung, for such a chord to meet your
                                definition.

                                >Also note that the top two voices may turn out to be lead-tenor,
                                >tenor-lead, or tenor-baritone. In any case, they need to be equally
                                balanced.
                                --
                                Interesting.

                                You also said: "Steve Langford correctly directed Larry to: ...
                                ". But I wish that I had first puzzled out just what a 2nd inversion
                                (which, according to the above table, does not put the "'Chopsticks'
                                Interval" at the top of the chord) is, before sharing that resource. My
                                apologies.

                                Steve

                                >Tom in Cincy
                                >barit1@...
                                >pondering the Malay 13th
                                >
                                >
                                >--- In bbshop@y..., "Larry Powell" <lwpowell@k...> wrote:
                                > > Can someone please explain what is a Chinese Seventh and how to
                                >recognize
                                > > it? You may respond privately is you wish.
                                > >
                                > > Thanks,
                                > >
                                > > Larry,
                                > > Bari w/The Orange Blossom Chorus
                                > > Orlando, Fl.


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                              • Charley Garrett
                                I heard that it was called a Chinese 7th because it appeared in the intro to On A Chinese Honeymoon . On the word HON-ey , we have G-Bb-D-E, but, while that
                                Message 15 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I heard that it was called a Chinese 7th because it appeared in the intro to
                                  "On A Chinese Honeymoon". On the word "HON-ey", we have G-Bb-D-E, but,
                                  while that does have the major 2nd between the root and 7th, it's not a
                                  major triad. It's a half-diminished 7th. So, would that still be Chinese
                                  7th?


                                  Charley Garrett
                                  President,
                                  Columbus Georgia Chapter

                                  114 Saddle Court
                                  Cusseta GA 31805
                                  (706) 989-3276
                                  CharleyG56@...





                                  Add this card to your address book

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "LIONEL DOTSON" <ledotson@...>
                                  To: "Frank Leitnaker" <fleit@...>
                                  Cc: "Steve Langford" <s@...>; <barit1@...>;
                                  <bbshop@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:49 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question


                                  Who cares what an inversion number is, except 'no ear' theoreticians
                                  (grin).
                                  When I first heard that chord, about 50 years ago, I thought 'well,
                                  that sure is perty, root on top, must be a Chinese7th" 'cause
                                  everybody knows that if you dig a hole straight down to the other side
                                  of the earth you come out in China..so that's what I called it, an
                                  upside down or Chinese7th. Maybe someone told me that that was the
                                  name but it sure made sense to me. Anybody ever heard of a Growing
                                  Girls 7th?(rhetorical question) That is a 5th-7th-root-3rd, tight,
                                  where the 7th pops out an octave high and you would swear the tenor
                                  was singing it. IfYouHadAllTheWorldAndItsGold on their AllGrownUp CD,
                                  the first "desire". I asked Bobby Ernspiker if he doctored the
                                  recording, he said "nope they did it all on their own".




                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Frank Leitnaker <fleit@...>
                                  Date: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 1:11 pm
                                  Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question

                                  > I ain't no expert but I thought the "inversion number" reflected what
                                  > was on the bottom rather than what was on the top, i.e., if the third
                                  > is on the bottom, it is a first inversion and if the fifth is on the
                                  > bottom, it is a second inversion. Thus, BBS chords are usually
                                  > (almost always) in "root position" with root in the bass (on the
                                  > bottom) or in second inversion with the fifth in the bass. As I
                                  > understand it, inversions originally meant keeping the "lineup" the
                                  > same, just bringing the bottom voice to the top. So a first
                                  inversion
                                  > would bring the root to the top and give a Chinese seventh but in
                                  > barbershop, you avoid giving the third to the bass so you give it to
                                  > the baritone so the bass can have the fifth. Now with the fifth in
                                  > the bass instead of the third, you call it a second inversion. A
                                  > configuration of 5,7,R,3 (bass up) would represent a "classic" second
                                  > inversion. A course, I got all my music theory from the Society and,
                                  > even if I got it right, it might well not be the same as what they
                                  > teach in music schools or even in Sweet Adelines.
                                  >
                                  > Maybe that's just an oversimplification for us simple minded souls.
                                  >
                                  > Frank Leitnaker
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: <barit1@...>
                                  > To: "Steve Langford" <s@...>
                                  > Cc: <bbshop@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 4:00 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > Steve et al:
                                  > >
                                  > > The chord you have indicated is (I'm 98% sure) the one the SPEBSQSA
                                  > Dictionary
                                  > > intends to illustrate the Chinese Seventh. The issue is now a
                                  > matter of
                                  > > nomenclature: do the pros call it a 1st or a 2nd inversion? Not
                                  > being a pro,
                                  > > I'll leave the door open.
                                  > >
                                  > > [There is a parallel disconnect in naming of overtones: The 1st
                                  > overtone (ie
                                  > > the octave of a reference pitch) is called the 2nd harmonic in
                                  > physicists'
                                  > > circles.]
                                  > >
                                  > > --
                                  > > Tom Emmert
                                  > > barit1@...
                                  > > http://harmonize.com/HeartOfOhio/nuance.htm
                                  > > http://wmkvfm.org/emmert.htm
                                  > > Subject to change without notice
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Inversion Bass Bari Lead Tenor
                                  > > > --------- ----- ----- ----- -----
                                  > > > Root C E G Bb
                                  > > > 1st E G Bb C <--- Is this what the
                                  > > > 2nd G Bb C E SPEBSQSA
                                  > Dictionary(*1)
                                  > > > 3rd Bb C E G may be calling a 2nd
                                  > inversion?
                                  > > > -------------------------------
                                  > > > *1. http://www.spebsqsafwd.org/html/dictionary.html
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > bbshop-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > bbshop-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


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                                • LIONEL DOTSON
                                  I may have heard the term by Skeet Bolds back in the early 1950s but it certainly referred the bass on Sol, the next guy up on Mi- 9 semitones higher, then up
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Nov 27, 2002
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                                    I may have heard the term by Skeet Bolds back in the early 1950s but
                                    it certainly referred the bass on Sol, the next guy up on Mi- 9
                                    semitones higher, then up to Li(7th)-6 semitones above Mi and on up to
                                    Do-2 semitones above the 7th...a 17 semitone span. Skeet was a clock
                                    system guy so maybe he heard it from Molly Reagan.



                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Charley Garrett <CharleyG56@...>
                                    Date: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 7:06 pm
                                    Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question

                                    > I heard that it was called a Chinese 7th because it appeared in
                                    > the intro to
                                    > "On A Chinese Honeymoon". On the word "HON-ey", we have G-Bb-D-E,
                                    > but,while that does have the major 2nd between the root and 7th,
                                    > it's not a
                                    > major triad. It's a half-diminished 7th. So, would that still be
                                    > Chinese7th?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Charley Garrett
                                    > President,
                                    > Columbus Georgia Chapter
                                    >
                                    > 114 Saddle Court
                                    > Cusseta GA 31805
                                    > (706) 989-3276
                                    > CharleyG56@...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Add this card to your address book
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "LIONEL DOTSON" <ledotson@...>
                                    > To: "Frank Leitnaker" <fleit@...>
                                    > Cc: "Steve Langford" <s@...>; <barit1@...>;
                                    > <bbshop@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:49 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Who cares what an inversion number is, except 'no ear' theoreticians
                                    > (grin).
                                    > When I first heard that chord, about 50 years ago, I thought 'well,
                                    > that sure is perty, root on top, must be a Chinese7th" 'cause
                                    > everybody knows that if you dig a hole straight down to the other
                                    side
                                    > of the earth you come out in China..so that's what I called it, an
                                    > upside down or Chinese7th. Maybe someone told me that that was the
                                    > name but it sure made sense to me. Anybody ever heard of a Growing
                                    > Girls 7th?(rhetorical question) That is a 5th-7th-root-3rd, tight,
                                    > where the 7th pops out an octave high and you would swear the tenor
                                    > was singing it. IfYouHadAllTheWorldAndItsGold on their AllGrownUp CD,
                                    > the first "desire". I asked Bobby Ernspiker if he doctored the
                                    > recording, he said "nope they did it all on their own".
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Frank Leitnaker <fleit@...>
                                    > Date: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 1:11 pm
                                    > Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question
                                    >
                                    > > I ain't no expert but I thought the "inversion number" reflected
                                    > what> was on the bottom rather than what was on the top, i.e., if
                                    > the third
                                    > > is on the bottom, it is a first inversion and if the fifth is on
                                    the
                                    > > bottom, it is a second inversion. Thus, BBS chords are usually
                                    > > (almost always) in "root position" with root in the bass (on the
                                    > > bottom) or in second inversion with the fifth in the bass. As I
                                    > > understand it, inversions originally meant keeping the "lineup" the
                                    > > same, just bringing the bottom voice to the top. So a first
                                    > inversion
                                    > > would bring the root to the top and give a Chinese seventh but in
                                    > > barbershop, you avoid giving the third to the bass so you give
                                    > it to
                                    > > the baritone so the bass can have the fifth. Now with the fifth in
                                    > > the bass instead of the third, you call it a second inversion. A
                                    > > configuration of 5,7,R,3 (bass up) would represent a "classic"
                                    > second> inversion. A course, I got all my music theory from the
                                    > Society and,
                                    > > even if I got it right, it might well not be the same as what they
                                    > > teach in music schools or even in Sweet Adelines.
                                    > >
                                    > > Maybe that's just an oversimplification for us simple minded souls.
                                    > >
                                    > > Frank Leitnaker
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: <barit1@...>
                                    > > To: "Steve Langford" <s@...>
                                    > > Cc: <bbshop@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 4:00 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > > Steve et al:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The chord you have indicated is (I'm 98% sure) the one the
                                    > SPEBSQSA> Dictionary
                                    > > > intends to illustrate the Chinese Seventh. The issue is now a
                                    > > matter of
                                    > > > nomenclature: do the pros call it a 1st or a 2nd inversion? Not
                                    > > being a pro,
                                    > > > I'll leave the door open.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > [There is a parallel disconnect in naming of overtones: The 1st
                                    > > overtone (ie
                                    > > > the octave of a reference pitch) is called the 2nd harmonic in
                                    > > physicists'
                                    > > > circles.]
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --
                                    > > > Tom Emmert
                                    > > > barit1@...
                                    > > > http://harmonize.com/HeartOfOhio/nuance.htm
                                    > > > http://wmkvfm.org/emmert.htm
                                    > > > Subject to change without notice
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Inversion Bass Bari Lead Tenor
                                    > > > > --------- ----- ----- ----- -----
                                    > > > > Root C E G Bb
                                    > > > > 1st E G Bb C <--- Is this what the
                                    > > > > 2nd G Bb C E SPEBSQSA
                                    > > Dictionary(*1)
                                    > > > > 3rd Bb C E G may be calling a
                                    2nd
                                    > > inversion?
                                    > > > > -------------------------------
                                    > > > > *1. http://www.spebsqsafwd.org/html/dictionary.html
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > > bbshop-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > bbshop-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > bbshop-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Steve Langford
                                    Hi, Harmonet Friends! Happy Thanksgiving Day 2002! :-) I have just tried to collate, digest (understand), comment upon, and summarize the discussion we have
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Nov 28, 2002
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi, "Harmonet" Friends!

                                      Happy Thanksgiving Day 2002! :-)

                                      I have just tried to collate, digest (understand), comment upon, and
                                      summarize the discussion we have had for two days in response to Larry
                                      Powell's question:

                                      "Can someone please explain what is a Chinese Seventh and how to
                                      recognize it?"

                                      The results can be found at

                                      http://www.personal.riverusers.com/~s/Chinese.7th.Summary.htm


                                      Have a wonderful Thanksgiving!!

                                      Sincerely,

                                      Steve
                                    • Greg Brown
                                      Ok, you all have succeeded in confusing me. Almost everyone has said that what determines a Chineese 7th is the top 2 notes in the chord. Also it has been
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Nov 28, 2002
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Ok, you all have succeeded in confusing me. Almost everyone has said that
                                        what determines a "Chineese 7th" is the top 2 notes in the chord. Also it
                                        has been noted that the lead is on the 7th and the tenor on the root. My
                                        question is would it still be a "Chineese 7th" if it were reversed with the
                                        tenor on the 7th and the lead on the root. In my experience it would make
                                        since that the lead be on the root because this is more than likley going to
                                        preserve the melody line unless the melody line consists of the lead singing
                                        the 7th. However, if the melody line does not carry the lead to the 7th
                                        then why would we want to disrupt the melody line by putting the lead on the
                                        7th. My thinking would lead me to the following voicing, however according
                                        to almost everyone here this would not be considered a "Chineese 7th".

                                        Tenor = Third, Lead = Root, Bari = 7th, Bass = 5th

                                        If you are working in the key of C then it would read E, C, Bb, G. This
                                        would create a very tight chord. So I guess this would just be a regular
                                        "Barbershop 7th" chord, which doesn't make it a "Chineese 7th" because the
                                        top two notes of the chord are a third away instead of a major 2nd. Am I
                                        correct.

                                        Now as far as usage. When should a "Chineese 7th" be used? To me it sounds
                                        like a leading tone for an FMaj chord.

                                        Of course I am far from an expert on this but I have asked my father, who is
                                        a music major about the origins of a "Chineese 7th" and he said he had never
                                        heard of it until he became involved in barbershop so he thinks it probably
                                        originated by a barbershopper. My theory that a "Chineese 7th" was sung and
                                        someone asked what kind of a chord it was. They told them it was a C7 chord
                                        and that they switched the voicing around, kind of like when you have a
                                        "Chineese Fire Drill". Everyone gets out of the car and gets back in a
                                        different position. By the way, the bass note or the lowest note in the
                                        chord is the only factor that determines the inversion.

                                        Like I said I'm not an expert, I'm just a guy who knows enough to get me
                                        into trouble, which can be dangerous on the Harmonet. :-)

                                        Greg Brown, aka. baricrazi
                                        Baritone - Government Issue Quartet
                                        Baritone - Heart Of Texas Chorus
                                        Southwestern District Chorus Champions 1997, 2000
                                        http://www.hotchorus.org



                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Charley Garrett [mailto:CharleyG56@...]
                                        Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 5:51 PM
                                        To: A discussion group for barbershop harmony.
                                        Subject: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question


                                        I thought it was the major 2nd that was critical, not necessarily who's
                                        singing it or what notes the other guys were singing. The way I usually see
                                        a major second is between the root and the 7th. Off the top of my head, I
                                        can't think of another interval that is a major second. So, I think the
                                        tenor is singing the root, and then the lead is a little lower on the 7th.
                                        But if they switched notes, then the tenor would be below the lead, and it
                                        would still be a chinese 7th, because of the root and 7th being the top 2
                                        notes of the chord.

                                        But what do I know, eh?


                                        Charley Garrett
                                        President,
                                        Columbus Georgia Chapter

                                        114 Saddle Court
                                        Cusseta GA 31805
                                        (706) 989-3276
                                        CharleyG56@...





                                        Add this card to your address book

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Steve Langford" <s@...>
                                        To: "Tom Emmert" <barit1@...>; <bbshop@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 9:27 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question



                                        Tom, et al.:

                                        Now I am confused! :-) I passed that definition along without
                                        first having questioned it. But I think that it may be an incorrect
                                        definition. What do *you* think?:

                                        According to the inversion numbering suggested at such a site as
                                        http://www.creativekeyboard.com/dec01/chordvoicings.html, and speaking for
                                        convenience in the key of C, I construct


                                        Inversion Bass Bari Lead Tenor
                                        --------- ----- ----- ----- -----
                                        Root C E G Bb
                                        1st E G Bb C <--- Is this what the
                                        2nd G Bb C E SPEBSQSA Dictionary(*1)
                                        3rd Bb C E G may be calling a 2nd inversion?
                                        -------------------------------
                                        *1. http://www.spebsqsafwd.org/html/dictionary.html



                                        Might "The second inversion of a 7th chord, where the tenor note is under
                                        the lead note" be corrected to read: "The first inversion of a 7th chord,
                                        where the tenor note is under the lead note". In the 2nd inversion, the
                                        major 2nd is buried within the chord, not being "exposed" at the top of the
                                        chord, as in the 1st inversion.

                                        Tom, you said "A Chinese Seventh is one in which the upper two
                                        notes form the first notes of 'Chopsticks'". But that construction is
                                        represented by the 1st-inversion in the table above, not by the 2nd. But
                                        yours is a broader definition, in that it does not designate at what
                                        octave the Bass and Bari notes are sung, for such a chord to meet your
                                        definition.

                                        >Also note that the top two voices may turn out to be lead-tenor,
                                        >tenor-lead, or tenor-baritone. In any case, they need to be equally
                                        balanced.
                                        --
                                        Interesting.

                                        You also said: "Steve Langford correctly directed Larry to: ...
                                        ". But I wish that I had first puzzled out just what a 2nd inversion
                                        (which, according to the above table, does not put the "'Chopsticks'
                                        Interval" at the top of the chord) is, before sharing that resource. My
                                        apologies.

                                        Steve

                                        >Tom in Cincy
                                        >barit1@...
                                        >pondering the Malay 13th
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >--- In bbshop@y..., "Larry Powell" <lwpowell@k...> wrote:
                                        > > Can someone please explain what is a Chinese Seventh and how to
                                        >recognize
                                        > > it? You may respond privately is you wish.
                                        > >
                                        > > Thanks,
                                        > >
                                        > > Larry,
                                        > > Bari w/The Orange Blossom Chorus
                                        > > Orlando, Fl.


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                                      • Tom Emmert
                                        Permit me to repost from my message of yesterday morning: ...any inversion which places the top two voices a major second (ie a whole step) apart meets the
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Nov 28, 2002
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Permit me to repost from my message of yesterday morning:

                                          "...any inversion which places the top two voices a
                                          major second (ie a whole step) apart meets the definition I've always
                                          used: A Chinese Seventh is one in which the upper two notes form the
                                          first notes of "Chopsticks".

                                          Also note that the top two voices may turn out to be lead-tenor,
                                          tenor-lead, or tenor-baritone. In any case, they need to be equally
                                          balanced."

                                          And no, Bill E., in 37 years of barbershop, I've never heard "Chinese
                                          7th" used to describe any variety of major 7th chord. Barbershop
                                          purists avoid the major 7th interval like the plague; but a Chinese
                                          7th is considered perfectly valid.

                                          Tom in Cincy
                                          barit1@a...
                                          digesting the Turkish 11th


                                          --- In bbshop@y..., "Greg Brown" <baricrazi@h...> wrote:
                                          > Ok, you all have succeeded in confusing me. Almost everyone has
                                          said that
                                          > what determines a "Chineese 7th" is the top 2 notes in the chord.
                                          Also it
                                          > has been noted that the lead is on the 7th and the tenor on the
                                          root. My
                                          > question is would it still be a "Chineese 7th" if it were reversed
                                          with the
                                          > tenor on the 7th and the lead on the root. In my experience it
                                          would make
                                          > since that the lead be on the root because this is more than likley
                                          going to
                                          > preserve the melody line unless the melody line consists of the
                                          lead singing
                                          > the 7th. However, if the melody line does not carry the lead to
                                          the 7th
                                          > then why would we want to disrupt the melody line by putting the
                                          lead on the
                                          > 7th. My thinking would lead me to the following voicing, however
                                          according
                                          > to almost everyone here this would not be considered a "Chineese
                                          7th".
                                          >
                                          > Tenor = Third, Lead = Root, Bari = 7th, Bass = 5th
                                          >
                                          > If you are working in the key of C then it would read E, C, Bb, G.
                                          This
                                          > would create a very tight chord. So I guess this would just be a
                                          regular
                                          > "Barbershop 7th" chord, which doesn't make it a "Chineese 7th"
                                          because the
                                          > top two notes of the chord are a third away instead of a major
                                          2nd. Am I
                                          > correct.
                                          >
                                          > Now as far as usage. When should a "Chineese 7th" be used? To me
                                          it sounds
                                          > like a leading tone for an FMaj chord.
                                          >
                                          > Of course I am far from an expert on this but I have asked my
                                          father, who is
                                          > a music major about the origins of a "Chineese 7th" and he said he
                                          had never
                                          > heard of it until he became involved in barbershop so he thinks it
                                          probably
                                          > originated by a barbershopper. My theory that a "Chineese 7th" was
                                          sung and
                                          > someone asked what kind of a chord it was. They told them it was a
                                          C7 chord
                                          > and that they switched the voicing around, kind of like when you
                                          have a
                                          > "Chineese Fire Drill". Everyone gets out of the car and gets back
                                          in a
                                          > different position. By the way, the bass note or the lowest note
                                          in the
                                          > chord is the only factor that determines the inversion.
                                          >
                                          > Like I said I'm not an expert, I'm just a guy who knows enough to
                                          get me
                                          > into trouble, which can be dangerous on the Harmonet. :-)
                                          >
                                          > Greg Brown, aka. baricrazi
                                          > Baritone - Government Issue Quartet
                                          > Baritone - Heart Of Texas Chorus
                                          > Southwestern District Chorus Champions 1997, 2000
                                          > http://www.hotchorus.org
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: Charley Garrett [mailto:CharleyG56@c...]
                                          > Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 5:51 PM
                                          > To: A discussion group for barbershop harmony.
                                          > Subject: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I thought it was the major 2nd that was critical, not necessarily
                                          who's
                                          > singing it or what notes the other guys were singing. The way I
                                          usually see
                                          > a major second is between the root and the 7th. Off the top of my
                                          head, I
                                          > can't think of another interval that is a major second. So, I
                                          think the
                                          > tenor is singing the root, and then the lead is a little lower on
                                          the 7th.
                                          > But if they switched notes, then the tenor would be below the lead,
                                          and it
                                          > would still be a chinese 7th, because of the root and 7th being the
                                          top 2
                                          > notes of the chord.
                                          >
                                          > But what do I know, eh?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Charley Garrett
                                          > President,
                                          > Columbus Georgia Chapter
                                          >
                                          > 114 Saddle Court
                                          > Cusseta GA 31805
                                          > (706) 989-3276
                                          > CharleyG56@c...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Add this card to your address book
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: "Steve Langford" <s@...>
                                          > To: "Tom Emmert" <barit1@a...>; <bbshop@y...>
                                          > Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 9:27 AM
                                          > Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Tom, et al.:
                                          >
                                          > Now I am confused! :-) I passed that definition along
                                          without
                                          > first having questioned it. But I think that it may be an incorrect
                                          > definition. What do *you* think?:
                                          >
                                          > According to the inversion numbering suggested at such a
                                          site as
                                          > http://www.creativekeyboard.com/dec01/chordvoicings.html, and
                                          speaking for
                                          > convenience in the key of C, I construct
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Inversion Bass Bari Lead Tenor
                                          > --------- ----- ----- ----- -----
                                          > Root C E G Bb
                                          > 1st E G Bb C <--- Is this what the
                                          > 2nd G Bb C E SPEBSQSA Dictionary(*1)
                                          > 3rd Bb C E G may be calling a 2nd
                                          inversion?
                                          > -------------------------------
                                          > *1. http://www.spebsqsafwd.org/html/dictionary.html
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Might "The second inversion of a 7th chord, where the tenor note is
                                          under
                                          > the lead note" be corrected to read: "The first inversion of a 7th
                                          chord,
                                          > where the tenor note is under the lead note". In the 2nd
                                          inversion, the
                                          > major 2nd is buried within the chord, not being "exposed" at the
                                          top of the
                                          > chord, as in the 1st inversion.
                                          >
                                          > Tom, you said "A Chinese Seventh is one in which the upper
                                          two
                                          > notes form the first notes of 'Chopsticks'". But that construction
                                          is
                                          > represented by the 1st-inversion in the table above, not by the
                                          2nd. But
                                          > yours is a broader definition, in that it does not designate at
                                          what
                                          > octave the Bass and Bari notes are sung, for such a chord to meet
                                          your
                                          > definition.
                                          >
                                          > >Also note that the top two voices may turn out to be lead-tenor,
                                          > >tenor-lead, or tenor-baritone. In any case, they need to be
                                          equally
                                          > balanced.
                                          > --
                                          > Interesting.
                                          >
                                          > You also said: "Steve Langford correctly directed Larry
                                          to: ...
                                          > ". But I wish that I had first puzzled out just what a 2nd
                                          inversion
                                          > (which, according to the above table, does not put the "'Chopsticks'
                                          > Interval" at the top of the chord) is, before sharing that
                                          resource. My
                                          > apologies.
                                          >
                                          > Steve
                                          >
                                          > >Tom in Cincy
                                          > >barit1@a...
                                          > >pondering the Malay 13th
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >--- In bbshop@y..., "Larry Powell" <lwpowell@k...> wrote:
                                          > > > Can someone please explain what is a Chinese Seventh and how to
                                          > >recognize
                                          > > > it? You may respond privately is you wish.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Thanks,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Larry,
                                          > > > Bari w/The Orange Blossom Chorus
                                          > > > Orlando, Fl.
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          > bbshop-unsubscribe@y...
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                                        • Val Hicks
                                          Chinese 7th: It is called that because the two top voices are a full-step from one another. (a la Chop-Sticks) In B-flat it would be from the bottom up (V7
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Dec 1, 2002
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                                            Chinese 7th:

                                            It is called that because the two top voices are a full-step from one
                                            another.
                                            (a la Chop-Sticks)
                                            In B-flat it would be from the bottom up (V7 chord) C (bass), A (bari),
                                            E-flat (in the lead or tenor), F (in the tenor and lead.)

                                            The chord doesn't have to be a V7 in the key. It can be any Mm7th (dominant
                                            7th) that is spaced interval-wise from the bottom up: M6, Tritone, M2 or
                                            full-tone.

                                            Val Hicks


                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Frank Leitnaker" <fleit@...>
                                            To: "Steve Langford" <s@...>; <barit1@...>
                                            Cc: <bbshop@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 11:11 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question


                                            > I ain't no expert but I thought the "inversion number" reflected what
                                            > was on the bottom rather than what was on the top, i.e., if the third
                                            > is on the bottom, it is a first inversion and if the fifth is on the
                                            > bottom, it is a second inversion. Thus, BBS chords are usually
                                            > (almost always) in "root position" with root in the bass (on the
                                            > bottom) or in second inversion with the fifth in the bass. As I
                                            > understand it, inversions originally meant keeping the "lineup" the
                                            > same, just bringing the bottom voice to the top. So a first inversion
                                            > would bring the root to the top and give a Chinese seventh but in
                                            > barbershop, you avoid giving the third to the bass so you give it to
                                            > the baritone so the bass can have the fifth. Now with the fifth in
                                            > the bass instead of the third, you call it a second inversion. A
                                            > configuration of 5,7,R,3 (bass up) would represent a "classic" second
                                            > inversion. A course, I got all my music theory from the Society and,
                                            > even if I got it right, it might well not be the same as what they
                                            > teach in music schools or even in Sweet Adelines.
                                            >
                                            > Maybe that's just an oversimplification for us simple minded souls.
                                            >
                                            > Frank Leitnaker
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: <barit1@...>
                                            > To: "Steve Langford" <s@...>
                                            > Cc: <bbshop@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 4:00 PM
                                            > Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Chinese Seventh Question
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > Steve et al:
                                            > >
                                            > > The chord you have indicated is (I'm 98% sure) the one the SPEBSQSA
                                            > Dictionary
                                            > > intends to illustrate the Chinese Seventh. The issue is now a
                                            > matter of
                                            > > nomenclature: do the pros call it a 1st or a 2nd inversion? Not
                                            > being a pro,
                                            > > I'll leave the door open.
                                            > >
                                            > > [There is a parallel disconnect in naming of overtones: The 1st
                                            > overtone (ie
                                            > > the octave of a reference pitch) is called the 2nd harmonic in
                                            > physicists'
                                            > > circles.]
                                            > >
                                            > > --
                                            > > Tom Emmert
                                            > > barit1@...
                                            > > http://harmonize.com/HeartOfOhio/nuance.htm
                                            > > http://wmkvfm.org/emmert.htm
                                            > > Subject to change without notice
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Inversion Bass Bari Lead Tenor
                                            > > > --------- ----- ----- ----- -----
                                            > > > Root C E G Bb
                                            > > > 1st E G Bb C <--- Is this what the
                                            > > > 2nd G Bb C E SPEBSQSA
                                            > Dictionary(*1)
                                            > > > 3rd Bb C E G may be calling a 2nd
                                            > inversion?
                                            > > > -------------------------------
                                            > > > *1. http://www.spebsqsafwd.org/html/dictionary.html
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > > bbshop-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
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                                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
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                                            >
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                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Steve Langford
                                            1 December 2002 Thanks for your nice clarifications, Val. But could you explain or point me to a resource that makes plain your notations: M6, Tritone, M2
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Dec 1, 2002
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                                              1 December 2002

                                              Thanks for your nice clarifications, Val. But could you explain or point
                                              me to a resource that makes plain your notations: "M6, Tritone, M2 or
                                              full-tone", please?

                                              Steve
                                            • Steve Langford
                                              Friends, http://www.personal.riverusers.com/~s/Chinese.7th.Summary.htm has been updated.
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Dec 2, 2002
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                                              • Steve Langford
                                                Keith, You have a sharp eye for detail! Thanks very much for your help. Your correction is now to be found towards the bottom of
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                                  Keith,

                                                  You have a sharp eye for detail! Thanks very much for your help. Your
                                                  correction is now to be found towards the bottom of

                                                  http://www.personal.riverusers.com/~s/Chinese.7th.Summary.htm

                                                  Much appreciated! :-)

                                                  Steve
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