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Re: Web Cast & Stuff

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  • gemsinger58
    Just a thank you to those responders kind enough to trim their responses!   I thought all the answers had merit...but it was much to scroll through them over
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 10, 2013
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      Just a thank you to those responders kind enough to trim their responses!   I thought all the answers had merit...but it was much to scroll through them over and over.  See what I mean?  

      In the past SAI has been 6 minutes for the first round and I believe 14-15 for finals.  This year it goes to 7 minutes for round one.  Time starts when you blow the pitch.  There is a penalty for Delay of Contest...I think 25 points.   North Metro was dinged for that in their homeless package in Vegas I believe as it took a LONG time for their members to drift onto stage.


      peace,  phyl

      On the galaxy...rollin' along!


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jeremy Reynolds
      Personally, I don t care how long a chorus sings. When we had time limits, it was very limiting. HOWEVER (yes, I m shouting), I think there should be a time
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 12, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Personally, I don't care how long a chorus sings. When we had time limits,
        it was very limiting. HOWEVER (yes, I'm shouting), I think there should be
        a time limit for setting up and tearing down. When The New Tradition Chorus
        did the Les Mis package, we took on 8 or 10 platforms and enough backing
        material to build a barricade for the uprising and we did it and got 140 men
        on stage in approximately 3 minutes. We got off the stage in about the same
        time. We planned ahead for it and practiced it many times before we ever
        got to the contest arena. Look how quickly Greendale got their entire green
        army onto the stage even though their entire front row had their feet bound
        together. I don't know exactly what the time limit should be but perhaps
        three or four minutes (from the time the previous chorus has left the stage,
        or from the time the next chorus is given permission to enter) should be
        enough. Anything more is just an insult to the audience.



        I understand that Alliance had a problem with chokepoints and had to
        disassemble their circus tent and re-assemble it on stage. They should have
        asked permission to measure the path to the stage ahead of time so that they
        would know just what they could and couldn't do and take steps ahead of
        time. Bad logistics! And probably bad planning to have parts that were too
        big for anything. A chorus can certainly put on a circus set without the
        elaborate tent! We barbershop audiences have good imaginations. We can
        understand implied scenery. TNL could have built a barn to show that their
        set was occurring on a farm. We didn't need that. We got the vegetable
        garden with only the fences in front of the sunflowers and the costumes.



        The Senate-Aires were something else, however. They didn't have elaborate
        sets. They just (IMNSHO) did a boring job of getting onto the stage and
        took way, way, way tooooooooo long to do it. We got the joke in the first
        minute. It wasn't funny after that.



        Jeremy Reynolds



        From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        John Flynn
        Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 9:20 AM
        To: 'Steve McCullough'; schofield749@...; bbshop@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: 'John Flynn'
        Subject: RE: [bbshop] Web Cast & Stuff





        I disagree with blaming the choruses for time delays in setting up for their
        performances. I would first look to inadequacies in the venues needed to
        support the growing level of performance creativity that is essential to
        sustaining interest by the performers and the audience. The bar keeps
        getting raised - and that is a good thing. You may still enjoy a good movie
        made in the 50's, but in general the production values in the movie industry
        have increased dramatically. I think the first order of business is for the
        society to prioritize the importance of the selected venues in the future to
        be able to support the increasing levels of production value for which the
        top choruses will continue to strive to obtain.

        John Flynn
        Sarasota Chorus of the Keys

        From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
        [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
        Of Steve McCullough
        Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 9:42 PM
        To: schofield749@... <mailto:schofield749%40btinternet.com> ;
        bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [bbshop] Web Cast & Stuff


        Friends,

        Time Limits:
        I'm totally in favor of a time limit. My chorus ran repetitive drills of our
        package (including getting on and off the stage) to make sure that we were
        at the "recommended" time for a chorus of our size. Our props were all
        designed for quick assembly and disassembly. Our music was also planned to
        fit us in the recommended time limit. Then we show up and see choruses
        totally exceed those recommendations with NO ramifications. Now, sometimes
        things happen in live theater. I heard the circus tent set could not fit
        through the doors and choke points at the back of the stage and they had to
        break it down and reassemble on each side of the door. If that is the case,
        I guess they did what they could to still be able to perform, but I believe
        that all of the choruses were told far in advance what the stage dimensions
        and choke point dimensions were going to be, and that there would be no
        curtain. We knew it, we planned for it, so it was not a
        problem for us.

        I fully appreciate a good presentation and that an epic performance may take
        some time to setup. I am sure that they worked very hard on their packages.
        They were definitely creative. Having said that, I am in favor of having
        time limit rules, not suggestions, with point penalties for those found
        guilty of this theatrical malfeasance.

        Interviews:
        On the point of the interviews, I was in one. It seemed fine to me.

        That is just my opinion. It's not gospel. Thank you for your time.

        Steve McCullough
        Circle City Sound (Greater Indianapolis Chapter in the Cardinal District)

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bruce
        There IS a written, but unenforced rule that you have a time limit based on the size of the chorus performing... under 50 = 12 minutes, 50-90 = 14
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 12, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          There IS a written, but unenforced "rule" that you have a time limit
          based on the size of the chorus performing...
          under 50 = 12 minutes, 50-90 = 14 minutes, 90 or more = 16 minutes
          this is SUPPOSE to be from the first man stepping on stage until the
          last man leaves, including set up time... it makes no mention of actual
          performing time.

          Some people questioned that last year after Salem's performance.... and
          I think you see in their scores this year a form of unofficial penalty
          because they violated the spirit of the thing again... but it wasn't
          applied to everyone it seems.

          It seems that the groups are really pushing the envelope in the
          non-singing areas... things like the full stage circus production from
          Alliance (time) to the Salem monks package (time) to the AVP Tony
          Bennett / Snidley Whiplash set (use of "props"?).

          Bruce Checca
          Tavernier, FL


          On 7/12/2013 8:07 AM, Jeremy Reynolds wrote:
          >
          > Personally, I don't care how long a chorus sings. When we had time limits,
          > it was very limiting. HOWEVER (yes, I'm shouting), I think there should be
          > a time limit for setting up and tearing down. When The New Tradition
          > Chorus
          > did the Les Mis package, we took on 8 or 10 platforms and enough backing
          > material to build a barricade for the uprising and we did it and got
          > 140 men
          > on stage in approximately 3 minutes. We got off the stage in about the
          > same
          > time. We planned ahead for it and practiced it many times before we ever
          > got to the contest arena. Look how quickly Greendale got their entire
          > green
          > army onto the stage even though their entire front row had their feet
          > bound
          > together. I don't know exactly what the time limit should be but perhaps
          > three or four minutes (from the time the previous chorus has left the
          > stage,
          > or from the time the next chorus is given permission to enter) should be
          > enough. Anything more is just an insult to the audience.
          >
          > I understand that Alliance had a problem with chokepoints and had to
          > disassemble their circus tent and re-assemble it on stage. They should
          > have
          > asked permission to measure the path to the stage ahead of time so
          > that they
          > would know just what they could and couldn't do and take steps ahead of
          > time. Bad logistics! And probably bad planning to have parts that were too
          > big for anything. A chorus can certainly put on a circus set without the
          > elaborate tent! We barbershop audiences have good imaginations. We can
          > understand implied scenery. TNL could have built a barn to show that their
          > set was occurring on a farm. We didn't need that. We got the vegetable
          > garden with only the fences in front of the sunflowers and the costumes.
          >
          > The Senate-Aires were something else, however. They didn't have elaborate
          > sets. They just (IMNSHO) did a boring job of getting onto the stage and
          > took way, way, way tooooooooo long to do it. We got the joke in the first
          > minute. It wasn't funny after that.
          >
          > Jeremy Reynolds
          >
          > From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
          > [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>] On
          > Behalf Of
          > John Flynn
          > Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 9:20 AM
          > To: 'Steve McCullough'; schofield749@...
          > <mailto:schofield749%40btinternet.com>; bbshop@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Cc: 'John Flynn'
          > Subject: RE: [bbshop] Web Cast & Stuff
          >
          > I disagree with blaming the choruses for time delays in setting up for
          > their
          > performances. I would first look to inadequacies in the venues needed to
          > support the growing level of performance creativity that is essential to
          > sustaining interest by the performers and the audience. The bar keeps
          > getting raised - and that is a good thing. You may still enjoy a good
          > movie
          > made in the 50's, but in general the production values in the movie
          > industry
          > have increased dramatically. I think the first order of business is
          > for the
          > society to prioritize the importance of the selected venues in the
          > future to
          > be able to support the increasing levels of production value for which the
          > top choruses will continue to strive to obtain.
          >
          > John Flynn
          > Sarasota Chorus of the Keys
          >
          > From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
          > <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
          > [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
          > <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
          > Of Steve McCullough
          > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 9:42 PM
          > To: schofield749@... <mailto:schofield749%40btinternet.com>
          > <mailto:schofield749%40btinternet.com> ;
          > bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
          > <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: Re: [bbshop] Web Cast & Stuff
          >
          > Friends,
          >
          > Time Limits:
          > I'm totally in favor of a time limit. My chorus ran repetitive drills
          > of our
          > package (including getting on and off the stage) to make sure that we were
          > at the "recommended" time for a chorus of our size. Our props were all
          > designed for quick assembly and disassembly. Our music was also planned to
          > fit us in the recommended time limit. Then we show up and see choruses
          > totally exceed those recommendations with NO ramifications. Now, sometimes
          > things happen in live theater. I heard the circus tent set could not fit
          > through the doors and choke points at the back of the stage and they
          > had to
          > break it down and reassemble on each side of the door. If that is the
          > case,
          > I guess they did what they could to still be able to perform, but I
          > believe
          > that all of the choruses were told far in advance what the stage
          > dimensions
          > and choke point dimensions were going to be, and that there would be no
          > curtain. We knew it, we planned for it, so it was not a
          > problem for us.
          >
          > I fully appreciate a good presentation and that an epic performance
          > may take
          > some time to setup. I am sure that they worked very hard on their
          > packages.
          > They were definitely creative. Having said that, I am in favor of having
          > time limit rules, not suggestions, with point penalties for those found
          > guilty of this theatrical malfeasance.
          >
          > Interviews:
          > On the point of the interviews, I was in one. It seemed fine to me.
          >
          > That is just my opinion. It's not gospel. Thank you for your time.
          >
          > Steve McCullough
          > Circle City Sound (Greater Indianapolis Chapter in the Cardinal District)
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jeremy Reynolds
          That s interesting that there is a rule. Are there any penalties associated with this rule? Points lost? If so, how did the Allies get fifth? They didn t
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 12, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            That's interesting that there is a rule. Are there any penalties associated
            with this rule? Points lost? If so, how did the Allies get fifth? They
            didn't have 90 on stage and yet used more than 16 minutes just to get on the
            stage. Salem used 16 minutes (I'm guessing) before they uttered a note.
            Now don't get me wrong. I'm not opposed to comedy, or schtick to use the
            Yiddish term. I loved the green army, the fish, even the penguins that
            Greendale did. I loved the bling and the light show that GNU did last year.
            I loved the vegetable package of TNL. I'm just saying that you have to have
            some respect for your audience. Please note also that I am not criticizing
            the probably over-long ballad of Westminster. Long, yes - but good,
            entertaining, and in perfect keeping with their package - and they didn't
            make the audience wait over-long for it to get started. I don't want to
            limit the actual presentation, only the set-up/take-down time.



            Speaking of rules. How about AVP's use of a woman who is NOT specifically a
            director? They identified her as a director. She lifted her arms (as if
            directing) a time or two but most of the time she was an actor in the scene
            - not a director. Boy was that pushing the envelope! It's probably good
            that I was not a PRS judge. I would probably have DQed them. I heard
            others in the hall saying the same thing. I've seen lots of contest
            presentations that would have been enhanced by having a woman on stage. So
            all we have to do is call her a director, let her sashay across the stage or
            be the object of the love song and it's OK? Do we really want to go there?
            If so, let's change the rules and say we can use women as props or scenery
            or whatever as long as they don't sing.



            Jeremy Reynolds



            From: Bruce [mailto:bruce.checca@...]
            Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 10:12 AM
            To: Jeremy Reynolds
            Cc: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [bbshop] Web Cast & Stuff



            There IS a written, but unenforced "rule" that you have a time limit based
            on the size of the chorus performing...
            under 50 = 12 minutes, 50-90 = 14 minutes, 90 or more = 16 minutes
            this is SUPPOSE to be from the first man stepping on stage until the last
            man leaves, including set up time... it makes no mention of actual
            performing time.

            Some people questioned that last year after Salem's performance.... and I
            think you see in their scores this year a form of unofficial penalty because
            they violated the spirit of the thing again... but it wasn't applied to
            everyone it seems.

            It seems that the groups are really pushing the envelope in the non-singing
            areas... things like the full stage circus production from Alliance (time)
            to the Salem monks package (time) to the AVP Tony Bennett / Snidley Whiplash
            set (use of "props"?).

            Bruce Checca
            Tavernier, FL



            On 7/12/2013 8:07 AM, Jeremy Reynolds wrote:



            Personally, I don't care how long a chorus sings. When we had time limits,
            it was very limiting. HOWEVER (yes, I'm shouting), I think there should be
            a time limit for setting up and tearing down. When The New Tradition Chorus
            did the Les Mis package, we took on 8 or 10 platforms and enough backing
            material to build a barricade for the uprising and we did it and got 140 men
            on stage in approximately 3 minutes. We got off the stage in about the same
            time. We planned ahead for it and practiced it many times before we ever
            got to the contest arena. Look how quickly Greendale got their entire green
            army onto the stage even though their entire front row had their feet bound
            together. I don't know exactly what the time limit should be but perhaps
            three or four minutes (from the time the previous chorus has left the stage,
            or from the time the next chorus is given permission to enter) should be
            enough. Anything more is just an insult to the audience.

            I understand that Alliance had a problem with chokepoints and had to
            disassemble their circus tent and re-assemble it on stage. They should have
            asked permission to measure the path to the stage ahead of time so that they
            would know just what they could and couldn't do and take steps ahead of
            time. Bad logistics! And probably bad planning to have parts that were too
            big for anything. A chorus can certainly put on a circus set without the
            elaborate tent! We barbershop audiences have good imaginations. We can
            understand implied scenery. TNL could have built a barn to show that their
            set was occurring on a farm. We didn't need that. We got the vegetable
            garden with only the fences in front of the sunflowers and the costumes.

            The Senate-Aires were something else, however. They didn't have elaborate
            sets. They just (IMNSHO) did a boring job of getting onto the stage and
            took way, way, way tooooooooo long to do it. We got the joke in the first
            minute. It wasn't funny after that.

            Jeremy Reynolds

            From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
            [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
            Of
            John Flynn
            Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 9:20 AM
            To: 'Steve McCullough'; schofield749@...
            <mailto:schofield749%40btinternet.com> ; bbshop@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
            Cc: 'John Flynn'
            Subject: RE: [bbshop] Web Cast & Stuff

            I disagree with blaming the choruses for time delays in setting up for their
            performances. I would first look to inadequacies in the venues needed to
            support the growing level of performance creativity that is essential to
            sustaining interest by the performers and the audience. The bar keeps
            getting raised - and that is a good thing. You may still enjoy a good movie
            made in the 50's, but in general the production values in the movie industry
            have increased dramatically. I think the first order of business is for the
            society to prioritize the importance of the selected venues in the future to
            be able to support the increasing levels of production value for which the
            top choruses will continue to strive to obtain.

            John Flynn
            Sarasota Chorus of the Keys

            From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
            <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
            [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
            <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
            Behalf
            Of Steve McCullough
            Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 9:42 PM
            To: schofield749@... <mailto:schofield749%40btinternet.com>
            <mailto:schofield749%40btinternet.com>
            <mailto:schofield749%40btinternet.com> ;
            bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
            <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: Re: [bbshop] Web Cast & Stuff

            Friends,

            Time Limits:
            I'm totally in favor of a time limit. My chorus ran repetitive drills of our
            package (including getting on and off the stage) to make sure that we were
            at the "recommended" time for a chorus of our size. Our props were all
            designed for quick assembly and disassembly. Our music was also planned to
            fit us in the recommended time limit. Then we show up and see choruses
            totally exceed those recommendations with NO ramifications. Now, sometimes
            things happen in live theater. I heard the circus tent set could not fit
            through the doors and choke points at the back of the stage and they had to
            break it down and reassemble on each side of the door. If that is the case,
            I guess they did what they could to still be able to perform, but I believe
            that all of the choruses were told far in advance what the stage dimensions
            and choke point dimensions were going to be, and that there would be no
            curtain. We knew it, we planned for it, so it was not a
            problem for us.

            I fully appreciate a good presentation and that an epic performance may take
            some time to setup. I am sure that they worked very hard on their packages.
            They were definitely creative. Having said that, I am in favor of having
            time limit rules, not suggestions, with point penalties for those found
            guilty of this theatrical malfeasance.

            Interviews:
            On the point of the interviews, I was in one. It seemed fine to me.

            That is just my opinion. It's not gospel. Thank you for your time.

            Steve McCullough
            Circle City Sound (Greater Indianapolis Chapter in the Cardinal District)

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • u370872
            Hi Jeremy et al - lots of questions here! 1 - is there a RULE about the total amount of time onstage? Answer - no. SCJC has instituted no time limits on the
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 12, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Jeremy et al - lots of questions here!

              1 - is there a RULE about the total amount of time onstage?

              Answer - no. SCJC has instituted no time limits on the performance - it
              just has to be 2 songs. We believe that this is ultimately self-policing,
              inasmuch as overlong performances will wear on the audiences and judges alike.
              We see some result along those lines with Salem this year.

              2 - How about time limits on setup and strike? Again - no rule. What there
              IS is something called "shared responsibilities" (which Bruce summed up
              nicely), which up until the events of this year ASKED the competitors to
              adhere to certain overall time limits in terms of the moment they stepped onto
              the stage until the last person exits. Those time limits were certainly
              blown away by some of the performances noted here, and likely even overstepped
              by choruses who opted for longer artistic presentations. This is the
              slippery slope where we have to be careful about blending administrative and
              artistic concerns/penalties/guidelines. You need to consider the unintended
              consequences - what if there are technical issues backstage? Who is going to
              adjudicate who's fault it is? Do we really want to levy a point penalty in
              say, Presentation, or across the artistic categories because a chorus
              dawdled backstage? Can you imagine the issues of fairness this could raise?

              What if a chorus member gets hurt or takes ill getting on or off the
              risers? Do we now have to hurriedly bundle him off because otherwise we are
              getting penalties?

              Again, this may sound preposterous, but we need to be aware of the
              potential issues. Seems like we would now have to station judges backstage to
              verify whose"fault" the delay is!

              3 - As far as the non-member rule in reference to AVP. I will say that this
              WAS discussed immediately after their performance, and as is always the
              case with our current judging community, the competitor is granted the
              benefit of the doubt. Did Becky Hine direct enough? The point was made she
              directed AT LEAST as much as Clay did in that first song. Could it be argued that
              AVP gamed the system? Sure - it could be, but "could" is not enough to
              penalize. These decision will continue to be made in real time and there is no
              one absolute quantifiable measure of when the letter of the law is met -
              it will continue to be a judgment call.

              It's always easier to criticize these decisions with the benefit of
              hindsight, but please remember the judging community is not first and foremost
              policemen - we are acolytes and supporters (and yes, guardians of the style),
              but we are also competitors ourselves, and with that comes a level of
              empathy for other competitors!

              Seems like it sure didn't help AVP much, tho.

              Joe


              In a message dated 7/12/2013 12:47:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              bbs10rfl@... writes:




              That's interesting that there is a rule. Are there any penalties associated
              with this rule? Points lost? If so, how did the Allies get fifth? They
              didn't have 90 on stage and yet used more than 16 minutes just to get on
              the
              stage. Salem used 16 minutes (I'm guessing) before they uttered a note.
              Now don't get me wrong. I'm not opposed to comedy, or schtick to use the
              Yiddish term. I loved the green army, the fish, even the penguins that
              Greendale did. I loved the bling and the light show that GNU did last year.
              I loved the vegetable package of TNL. I'm just saying that you have to have
              some respect for your audience. Please note also that I am not criticizing
              the probably over-long ballad of Westminster. Long, yes - but good,
              entertaining, and in perfect keeping with their package - and they didn't
              make the audience wait over-long for it to get started. I don't want to
              limit the actual presentation, only the set-up/take-down time.

              Speaking of rules. How about AVP's use of a woman who is NOT specifically a
              director? They identified her as a director. She lifted her arms (as if
              directing) a time or two but most of the time she was an actor in the scene
              - not a director. Boy was that pushing the envelope! It's probably good
              that I was not a PRS judge. I would probably have DQed them. I heard
              others in the hall saying the same thing. I've seen lots of contest
              presentations that would have been enhanced by having a woman on stage. So
              all we have to do is call her a director, let her sashay across the stage
              or
              be the object of the love song and it's OK? Do we really want to go there?
              If so, let's change the rules and say we can use women as props or scenery
              or whatever as long as they don't sing.

              Jeremy Reynolds

              From: Bruce [mailto:_bruce.checca@..._
              (mailto:bruce.checca@...) ]
              Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 10:12 AM
              To: Jeremy Reynolds
              Cc: _bbshop@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com)
              Subject: Re: [bbshop] Web Cast & Stuff

              There IS a written, but unenforced "rule" that you have a time limit based
              on the size of the chorus performing...
              under 50 = 12 minutes, 50-90 = 14 minutes, 90 or more = 16 minutes
              this is SUPPOSE to be from the first man stepping on stage until the last
              man leaves, including set up time... it makes no mention of actual
              performing time.

              Some people questioned that last year after Salem's performance.... and I
              think you see in their scores this year a form of unofficial penalty
              because
              they violated the spirit of the thing again... but it wasn't applied to
              everyone it seems.

              It seems that the groups are really pushing the envelope in the non-singing
              areas... things like the full stage circus production from Alliance (time)
              to the Salem monks package (time) to the AVP Tony Bennett / Snidley
              Whiplash
              set (use of "props"?).

              Bruce Checca
              Tavernier, FL

              On 7/12/2013 8:07 AM, Jeremy Reynolds wrote:

              Personally, I don't care how long a chorus sings. When we had time limits,
              it was very limiting. HOWEVER (yes, I'm shouting), I think there should be
              a time limit for setting up and tearing down. When The New Tradition Chorus
              did the Les Mis package, we took on 8 or 10 platforms and enough backing
              material to build a barricade for the uprising and we did it and got 140
              men
              on stage in approximately 3 minutes. We got off the stage in about the same
              time. We planned ahead for it and practiced it many times before we ever
              got to the contest arena. Look how quickly Greendale got their entire green
              army onto the stage even though their entire front row had their feet bound
              together. I don't know exactly what the time limit should be but perhaps
              three or four minutes (from the time the previous chorus has left the
              stage,
              or from the time the next chorus is given permission to enter) should be
              enough. Anything more is just an insult to the audience.

              I understand that Alliance had a problem with chokepoints and had to
              disassemble their circus tent and re-assemble it on stage. They should have
              asked permission to measure the path to the stage ahead of time so that
              they
              would know just what they could and couldn't do and take steps ahead of
              time. Bad logistics! And probably bad planning to have parts that were too
              big for anything. A chorus can certainly put on a circus set without the
              elaborate tent! We barbershop audiences have good imaginations. We can
              understand implied scenery. TNL could have built a barn to show that their
              set was occurring on a farm. We didn't need that. We got the vegetable
              garden with only the fences in front of the sunflowers and the costumes.

              The Senate-Aires were something else, however. They didn't have elaborate
              sets. They just (IMNSHO) did a boring job of getting onto the stage and
              took way, way, way tooooooooo long to do it. We got the joke in the first
              minute. It wasn't funny after that.

              Jeremy Reynolds

              From: _bbshop@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com)
              <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
              [mailto:_bbshop@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com)
              <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
              Of
              John Flynn
              Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 9:20 AM
              To: 'Steve McCullough'; _schofield749@..._
              (mailto:schofield749@...)
              <mailto:schofield749%40btinternet.com> ; _bbshop@yahoogroups.com_
              (mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com)
              <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
              Cc: 'John Flynn'
              Subject: RE: [bbshop] Web Cast & Stuff

              I disagree with blaming the choruses for time delays in setting up for
              their
              performances. I would first look to inadequacies in the venues needed to
              support the growing level of performance creativity that is essential to
              sustaining interest by the performers and the audience. The bar keeps
              getting raised - and that is a good thing. You may still enjoy a good movie
              made in the 50's, but in general the production values in the movie
              industry
              have increased dramatically. I think the first order of business is for the
              society to prioritize the importance of the selected venues in the future
              to
              be able to support the increasing levels of production value for which the
              top choruses will continue to strive to obtain.

              John Flynn
              Sarasota Chorus of the Keys

              From: _bbshop@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com)
              <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
              <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
              [mailto:_bbshop@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com)
              <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
              <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
              Behalf
              Of Steve McCullough
              Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 9:42 PM
              To: _schofield749@..._ (mailto:schofield749@...)
              <mailto:schofield749%40btinternet.com>
              <mailto:schofield749%40btinternet.com>
              <mailto:schofield749%40btinternet.com> ;
              _bbshop@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com)
              <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
              <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [bbshop] Web Cast & Stuff

              Friends,

              Time Limits:
              I'm totally in favor of a time limit. My chorus ran repetitive drills of
              our
              package (including getting on and off the stage) to make sure that we were
              at the "recommended" time for a chorus of our size. Our props were all
              designed for quick assembly and disassembly. Our music was also planned to
              fit us in the recommended time limit. Then we show up and see choruses
              totally exceed those recommendations with NO ramifications. Now, sometimes
              things happen in live theater. I heard the circus tent set could not fit
              through the doors and choke points at the back of the stage and they had to
              break it down and reassemble on each side of the door. If that is the case,
              I guess they did what they could to still be able to perform, but I believe
              that all of the choruses were told far in advance what the stage dimensions
              and choke point dimensions were going to be, and that there would be no
              curtain. We knew it, we planned for it, so it was not a
              problem for us.

              I fully appreciate a good presentation and that an epic performance may
              take
              some time to setup. I am sure that they worked very hard on their packages.
              They were definitely creative. Having said that, I am in favor of having
              time limit rules, not suggestions, with point penalties for those found
              guilty of this theatrical malfeasance.

              Interviews:
              On the point of the interviews, I was in one. It seemed fine to me.

              That is just my opinion. It's not gospel. Thank you for your time.

              Steve McCullough
              Circle City Sound (Greater Indianapolis Chapter in the Cardinal District)

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Mark Schuldenfrei
              Forgive me if I muse, but I really am hoping for better understanding and enlightenment... ... I thought this was a very interesting point, from the standpoint
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 12, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Forgive me if I muse, but I really am hoping for better understanding
                and enlightenment...

                On 7/12/2013 11:44 AM, Jeremy Reynolds wrote:
                > Speaking of rules. How about AVP's use of a woman who is NOT specifically a
                > director? They identified her as a director. She lifted her arms (as if
                > directing) a time or two but most of the time she was an actor in the scene
                > - not a director. Boy was that pushing the envelope! It's probably good
                > that I was not a PRS judge. I would probably have DQed them. I heard
                > others in the hall saying the same thing. I've seen lots of contest
                > presentations that would have been enhanced by having a woman on stage. So
                > all we have to do is call her a director, let her sashay across the stage or
                > be the object of the love song and it's OK? Do we really want to go there?
                > If so, let's change the rules and say we can use women as props or scenery
                > or whatever as long as they don't sing.

                I thought this was a very interesting point, from the standpoint of
                the existing rules alone. I'm not opposed to the question of
                whether that woman was really a "director", although I have no
                firm opinion on whether she was or was not.

                But I backed up a step and asked myself "why not have non-singers
                on stage"? I don't understand the PURPOSE of the rule, nor can
                I really make sense of it on my own.

                Consider, as a real example, my choruses performance at International.
                Our front row (which included our wonderful director) basically
                could not sing during our second song - the choreography was very
                intense and it limited their ability to sing. (They sang or
                directed their hearts out on our first song.)

                What is the difference between a singer who is not singing, and
                a person who is not singing such as a woman, or an actor? Did the
                wonderful rabbit in the Toronto Northern Lights first song
                really sing? I doubt he sang all the time: part of the time
                he was off stage, and part of the time he had false bunny-teeth
                in his mouth.

                If we are continuing to work to improve our presentation and
                audience response, why not have a "cast of thousands" (even, gasp,
                women) if choruses think that it improves the show? Can we let the
                Judges be the judge of whether the presentation was worth it,
                and whether the singing was mixed gender or single-gender and
                of appropriate quality?

                It isn't done. Why isn't it done? I'm sure there is a reason,
                I just am not aware of what that reason might be.

                Mark Schuldenfrei
              • Marty Israel
                Hi Jeremy et al, This was not the 1st time a woman performed on our International stage while being listed as a Director. Narragansett Bay did it once or
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 12, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Jeremy et al,



                  This was not the 1st time a woman performed on our International stage while being listed as a Director. Narragansett Bay did it once or twice. I don't remember the woman's name.



                  Canto ergo sum



                  Marty Israel

                  Long live the 7th





                  To: bruce.checca@...
                  CC: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                  From: bbs10rfl@...
                  Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 11:44:15 -0400
                  Subject: RE: [bbshop] Web Cast & Stuff





                  That's interesting that there is a rule. Are there any penalties associated
                  with this rule? Points lost? If so, how did the Allies get fifth? They
                  didn't have 90 on stage and yet used more than 16 minutes just to get on the
                  stage. Salem used 16 minutes (I'm guessing) before they uttered a note.
                  Now don't get me wrong. I'm not opposed to comedy, or schtick to use the
                  Yiddish term. I loved the green army, the fish, even the penguins that
                  Greendale did. I loved the bling and the light show that GNU did last year.
                  I loved the vegetable package of TNL. I'm just saying that you have to have
                  some respect for your audience. Please note also that I am not criticizing
                  the probably over-long ballad of Westminster. Long, yes - but good,
                  entertaining, and in perfect keeping with their package - and they didn't
                  make the audience wait over-long for it to get started. I don't want to
                  limit the actual presentation, only the set-up/take-down time.

                  Speaking of rules. How about AVP's use of a woman who is NOT specifically a
                  director? They identified her as a director. She lifted her arms (as if
                  directing) a time or two but most of the time she was an actor in the scene
                  - not a director. Boy was that pushing the envelope! It's probably good
                  that I was not a PRS judge. I would probably have DQed them. I heard
                  others in the hall saying the same thing. I've seen lots of contest
                  presentations that would have been enhanced by having a woman on stage. So
                  all we have to do is call her a director, let her sashay across the stage or
                  be the object of the love song and it's OK? Do we really want to go there?
                  If so, let's change the rules and say we can use women as props or scenery
                  or whatever as long as they don't sing.

                  Jeremy Reynolds

                  From: Bruce [mailto:bruce.checca@...]
                  Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 10:12 AM
                  To: Jeremy Reynolds
                  Cc: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [bbshop] Web Cast & Stuff

                  There IS a written, but unenforced "rule" that you have a time limit based
                  on the size of the chorus performing...
                  under 50 = 12 minutes, 50-90 = 14 minutes, 90 or more = 16 minutes
                  this is SUPPOSE to be from the first man stepping on stage until the last
                  man leaves, including set up time... it makes no mention of actual
                  performing time.

                  Some people questioned that last year after Salem's performance.... and I
                  think you see in their scores this year a form of unofficial penalty because
                  they violated the spirit of the thing again... but it wasn't applied to
                  everyone it seems.

                  It seems that the groups are really pushing the envelope in the non-singing
                  areas... things like the full stage circus production from Alliance (time)
                  to the Salem monks package (time) to the AVP Tony Bennett / Snidley Whiplash
                  set (use of "props"?).

                  Bruce Checca
                  Tavernier, FL

                  On 7/12/2013 8:07 AM, Jeremy Reynolds wrote:

                  Personally, I don't care how long a chorus sings. When we had time limits,
                  it was very limiting. HOWEVER (yes, I'm shouting), I think there should be
                  a time limit for setting up and tearing down. When The New Tradition Chorus
                  did the Les Mis package, we took on 8 or 10 platforms and enough backing
                  material to build a barricade for the uprising and we did it and got 140 men
                  on stage in approximately 3 minutes. We got off the stage in about the same
                  time. We planned ahead for it and practiced it many times before we ever
                  got to the contest arena. Look how quickly Greendale got their entire green
                  army onto the stage even though their entire front row had their feet bound
                  together. I don't know exactly what the time limit should be but perhaps
                  three or four minutes (from the time the previous chorus has left the stage,
                  or from the time the next chorus is given permission to enter) should be
                  enough. Anything more is just an insult to the audience.

                  I understand that Alliance had a problem with chokepoints and had to
                  disassemble their circus tent and re-assemble it on stage. They should have
                  asked permission to measure the path to the stage ahead of time so that they
                  would know just what they could and couldn't do and take steps ahead of
                  time. Bad logistics! And probably bad planning to have parts that were too
                  big for anything. A chorus can certainly put on a circus set without the
                  elaborate tent! We barbershop audiences have good imaginations. We can
                  understand implied scenery. TNL could have built a barn to show that their
                  set was occurring on a farm. We didn't need that. We got the vegetable
                  garden with only the fences in front of the sunflowers and the costumes.

                  The Senate-Aires were something else, however. They didn't have elaborate
                  sets. They just (IMNSHO) did a boring job of getting onto the stage and
                  took way, way, way tooooooooo long to do it. We got the joke in the first
                  minute. It wasn't funny after that.

                  Jeremy Reynolds

                  From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
                  [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
                  Of
                  John Flynn
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 9:20 AM
                  To: 'Steve McCullough'; schofield749@...
                  <mailto:schofield749%40btinternet.com> ; bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                  <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
                  Cc: 'John Flynn'
                  Subject: RE: [bbshop] Web Cast & Stuff

                  I disagree with blaming the choruses for time delays in setting up for their
                  performances. I would first look to inadequacies in the venues needed to
                  support the growing level of performance creativity that is essential to
                  sustaining interest by the performers and the audience. The bar keeps
                  getting raised - and that is a good thing. You may still enjoy a good movie
                  made in the 50's, but in general the production values in the movie industry
                  have increased dramatically. I think the first order of business is for the
                  society to prioritize the importance of the selected venues in the future to
                  be able to support the increasing levels of production value for which the
                  top choruses will continue to strive to obtain.

                  John Flynn
                  Sarasota Chorus of the Keys

                  From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
                  <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
                  [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
                  <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                  Behalf
                  Of Steve McCullough
                  Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 9:42 PM
                  To: schofield749@... <mailto:schofield749%40btinternet.com>
                  <mailto:schofield749%40btinternet.com>
                  <mailto:schofield749%40btinternet.com> ;
                  bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
                  <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:bbshop%40yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: Re: [bbshop] Web Cast & Stuff

                  Friends,

                  Time Limits:
                  I'm totally in favor of a time limit. My chorus ran repetitive drills of our
                  package (including getting on and off the stage) to make sure that we were
                  at the "recommended" time for a chorus of our size. Our props were all
                  designed for quick assembly and disassembly. Our music was also planned to
                  fit us in the recommended time limit. Then we show up and see choruses
                  totally exceed those recommendations with NO ramifications. Now, sometimes
                  things happen in live theater. I heard the circus tent set could not fit
                  through the doors and choke points at the back of the stage and they had to
                  break it down and reassemble on each side of the door. If that is the case,
                  I guess they did what they could to still be able to perform, but I believe
                  that all of the choruses were told far in advance what the stage dimensions
                  and choke point dimensions were going to be, and that there would be no
                  curtain. We knew it, we planned for it, so it was not a
                  problem for us.

                  I fully appreciate a good presentation and that an epic performance may take
                  some time to setup. I am sure that they worked very hard on their packages.
                  They were definitely creative. Having said that, I am in favor of having
                  time limit rules, not suggestions, with point penalties for those found
                  guilty of this theatrical malfeasance.

                  Interviews:
                  On the point of the interviews, I was in one. It seemed fine to me.

                  That is just my opinion. It's not gospel. Thank you for your time.

                  Steve McCullough
                  Circle City Sound (Greater Indianapolis Chapter in the Cardinal District)

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nick Alexander
                  Fellow Barber Shoppers: A suggestion - when responding to a post (like webcast & stuff), delete all of the previous comments on the thread, leaving just your
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 12, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Fellow Barber Shoppers:

                    A suggestion - when responding to a post (like webcast &
                    stuff), delete all of the previous comments on the thread,
                    leaving just your comment. It prevents having to scroll
                    through numerous copies of the same comments. Just
                    highlight the previous comments and hit "delete".

                    Nick Alexander, A happy Barber Shopper since 1980.

                    VM MC









                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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