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Re: Results of the LOL District quartet prelims??

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  • David
    That s hugely better than a bad-taste violation, and I applaud you! I did an actual LOL when I pictured your quartet turning to the audience for help. And
    Message 1 of 24 , May 7, 2013
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      That's hugely better than a bad-taste violation, and I applaud you! I did an actual "LOL" when I pictured your quartet turning to the audience for help. And judges have been known to disagree on rule interpretation. For instance, the rule about talking on stage.

      I was in a quartet that competed at International with a military package, including a comedy song. We wanted to "call cadence" for our entry and exit, so we checked with the (I think it was still Stage Presence?) category specialist, who said it was acceptable since we wouldn't be directly addressing the audience. We did well that year, finishing 13th, but unbeknownst to us, we had kicked off a major argument in the category, in which (if my sources are accurate) the next year's category specialist stated that we should have been DQ'd. The following year, we ended up 17 places lower using the same package. I heard through the grapevine that we were saved from DQ only because of the previous year's precedent.

      But nowadays, quartets talk up a storm, for some incredibly entertaining contest packages, without fear of DQ. I like to think it was, in part, due to our setting that precedent.

      Dave Garstang


      --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, Jim Emery <james.e.emery@...> wrote:
      >
      > I will clarify the 0 scores from PRS, as this was my quartet,
      > Cranial Cabbage.
      >
      > The "Limerick Song" was a collection of seven Limericks assembled
      > into a simple medley. The majority of the lyrics were written by
      > our bass Bruce Watson. The music was a slight alteration to the
      > melody from the children's song "If You're Happy And You Know It,
      > Clap Your Hands". The arrangement was mine.
      >
      > While I'd love to feed the titillation factor that often comes
      > with Limericks, the 0 scores were not due to poor taste. One of
      > the Limericks did start with "There once was a tenor named
      > Chuck...", but we didn't go there. The rhymes for Chuck
      > were "buck" and "duck". :-)
      >
      > The second Limerick was about how much we love barbershop. The
      > final line involved teaching a one line tag to the members of
      > the quartet. Part of the humor was that the baritone was
      > clueless in learning his part and clearly needed help. We
      > thought (out loud) of asking help from the judges but decided
      > against that. So the lead (me) taught the baritone part to the
      > audience in the hall. The audience then sang the tag with the
      > quartet.
      >
      > There is a contest rule that states "Persons who are not
      > members of the competing chorus or quartet may not appear on
      > stage during the performance." Although the audience was not
      > physically on stage, we had, in effect, extended the stage into
      > the auditorium and included them as performers. Since they
      > were not members of the quartet but were involved in the
      > performance, we had violated the intent of this rule resulting
      > in a score of 0 from each Presentation judge.
      >
      > Since this was the first real stage performance by this quartet,
      > I cannot imagine anything we could have done that would have
      > gathered more attention. So, in the end, this was probably a
      > great marketing ploy for the quartet, although we certainly
      > never expected it.
      >
      > -- Jim
      > ___________________________________________________
      > Jim Emery
      > Singing Judge
      > Quartet & chorus coach
      > www.barbershopcoach.com
    • Bruce B
      Am I the only one getting annoyed by groups using the Contest stage (by way of purposefully breaking the rules) as a means of advertising their performance
      Message 2 of 24 , May 8, 2013
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        Am I the only one getting annoyed by groups "using" the Contest stage (by way of purposefully breaking the rules) as a means of advertising their performance for prospective shows or to make a point? Not that this is getting out of hand but it seems there is at least one performance a contest cycle that seems to fit the type that we're discussing here.

        I realize that over the years, that songs/chords, talking on stage, arrangements can push the envelope of what is currently acceptable in the judging community and I'm not speaking to those choices. It's groups that sound like this one that flat out know they are not just pushing the envelope but shattering/breaking the rules. Quote from this situation below:

        > Since this was the first real stage performance by this quartet,
        > I cannot imagine anything we could have done that would have
        > gathered more attention. So, in the end, this was probably a
        > great marketing ploy for the quartet, although we certainly
        > never expected it.

        In my 20+ years, I've seen both quartets and choruses "use" the contest stage to make a statement like this. Religious or non-barbershop songs to remember a member that has passed, comedy that is pushing the envelope of good taste for quartet PR, pushing the limit of who can be on stage, etc. It seems to me that there is a time and place to make these type of performances: Mic-testing, afterglows, special performances before or after the contest. Even if the motivations are noble, the contest stage is still not the place for such performances. The contest stage is for contest purposes only.

        It seems to me that the consequences of consciously making a choice like these should be more than just losing points. In most cases, the performers know ahead of time that a stiff penalty and/or DQ is going to happen and are willing to take the penalty for being able to use the contest stage to make their point!

        Should there be something more significant for these flagrant violations?? Sitting out a contest cycle, pre-approval of material for the next contest come to mind.

        In the end, the contest stage is not just ANY stage and there are certain parameters for what is to be done and not done there. Groups should not be allowed to be able to flippantly cast aside the rules just to promote themselves or to make a personal point.


        There is a time and place for everything,

        Bruce Baedke <><

        --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "quartetmandh" <quartetmandh@...> wrote:
        >
        > Does anyone have any results of the quartet prelims at the LOL District Convention??
        >
        >
        > Thanks!!
        >
        > David Haase
        >
      • John Elving
        We seem to forget that our primary purpose, even in contest, is to entertain the audience. Yes, there are guidelines (rules), but we aren t there primarily to
        Message 3 of 24 , May 8, 2013
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          We seem to forget that our primary purpose, even in contest, is to entertain
          the audience. Yes, there are guidelines (rules), but we aren't there
          primarily to impress the judges. Our job is really to impress the audience,
          no matter the venue. Yes, they did know they were pushing the limits, as
          many groups do, and this has been taking place through the history of our
          Society. It isn't something new. And how is that really different than a
          chorus getting up on the contest stage, holding up five or six numbered
          signs and letting the judges or audience pick two numbers and that
          determining what songs you will sing in contest. Seems like either way the
          audience wins!

          Sing-cerely & Humm-bly,

          John Elving
          Editor-in-Cheap, Shrine of Democracy Chorus
          Bass - SOUND ENGINEERING Quartet
          RMD Exec. VP
          PROBE President
          OIF Trainer, SOP Evaluator
          mailto:leaderman@...
          605-381-9680
          Skype: john.elving



          From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Bruce B
          Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 2:41 PM
          To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [bbshop] Re: Results of the LOL District quartet prelims??

          Am I the only one getting annoyed by groups "using" the Contest stage (by
          way of purposefully breaking the rules) as a means of advertising their
          performance for prospective shows or to make a point? Not that this is
          getting out of hand but it seems there is at least one performance a contest
          cycle that seems to fit the type that we're discussing here.

          I realize that over the years, that songs/chords, talking on stage,
          arrangements can push the envelope of what is currently acceptable in the
          judging community and I'm not speaking to those choices. It's groups that
          sound like this one that flat out know they are not just pushing the
          envelope but shattering/breaking the rules. Quote from this situation below:

          > Since this was the first real stage performance by this quartet,
          > I cannot imagine anything we could have done that would have
          > gathered more attention. So, in the end, this was probably a
          > great marketing ploy for the quartet, although we certainly
          > never expected it.

          In my 20+ years, I've seen both quartets and choruses "use" the contest
          stage to make a statement like this. Religious or non-barbershop songs to
          remember a member that has passed, comedy that is pushing the envelope of
          good taste for quartet PR, pushing the limit of who can be on stage, etc. It
          seems to me that there is a time and place to make these type of
          performances: Mic-testing, afterglows, special performances before or after
          the contest. Even if the motivations are noble, the contest stage is still
          not the place for such performances. The contest stage is for contest
          purposes only.

          It seems to me that the consequences of consciously making a choice like
          these should be more than just losing points. In most cases, the performers
          know ahead of time that a stiff penalty and/or DQ is going to happen and are
          willing to take the penalty for being able to use the contest stage to make
          their point!

          Should there be something more significant for these flagrant violations??
          Sitting out a contest cycle, pre-approval of material for the next contest
          come to mind.

          In the end, the contest stage is not just ANY stage and there are certain
          parameters for what is to be done and not done there. Groups should not be
          allowed to be able to flippantly cast aside the rules just to promote
          themselves or to make a personal point.

          There is a time and place for everything,

          Bruce Baedke <><
        • Bruce
          Well, from where I sit Bruce... Yes...yes you are ! :-D The problem with pre-qualifying is where do you set the limit... and who does that? Bad placement
          Message 4 of 24 , May 8, 2013
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            Well, from where I sit Bruce... "Yes...yes you are"! :-D The problem
            with pre-qualifying is where do you set the limit... and who does that?
            Bad placement / lower scores are the way to control that best it seems.

            Bruce Checca

            On 5/8/2013 4:40 PM, Bruce B wrote:
            >
            > Am I the only one getting annoyed by groups "using" the Contest stage
            > (by way of purposefully breaking the rules) as a means of advertising
            > their performance for prospective shows or to make a point? Not that
            > this is getting out of hand but it seems there is at least one
            > performance a contest cycle that seems to fit the type that we're
            > discussing here.
            >

            ...then...

            It seems to me that the consequences of consciously making a choice like
            these should be more than just losing points. In most cases, the
            performers know ahead of time that a stiff penalty and/or DQ is going to
            happen and are willing to take the penalty for being able to use the
            contest stage to make their point!

            Should there be something more significant for these flagrant
            violations?? Sitting out a contest cycle, pre-approval of material for
            the next contest come to mind.
            >
            >
            > Bruce Baedke <><
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bill Kane
            Bruce - I think you are jumping at the wrong conclusion from Jim s words. He is a judge and I don t think would be intentionally going on the contest stage
            Message 5 of 24 , May 8, 2013
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              Bruce - I think you are jumping at the wrong conclusion from Jim's words. He is a judge and I don't think would be intentionally going on the contest stage "breaking the rules". It sounds like "making the best of the situation" language to me. I don't imagine that the quartet thought this particular rule would be so broadly interpreted as to cover their action. Thanks to Jim for providing an explanation for us. Bill KanePhoenix
              To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
              From: kbaedke@...
              Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 20:40:37 +0000
              Subject: [bbshop] Re: Results of the LOL District quartet prelims??






























              Am I the only one getting annoyed by groups "using" the Contest stage (by way of purposefully breaking the rules) as a means of advertising their performance for prospective shows or to make a point? Not that this is getting out of hand but it seems there is at least one performance a contest cycle that seems to fit the type that we're discussing here.



              I realize that over the years, that songs/chords, talking on stage, arrangements can push the envelope of what is currently acceptable in the judging community and I'm not speaking to those choices. It's groups that sound like this one that flat out know they are not just pushing the envelope but shattering/breaking the rules. Quote from this situation below:



              > Since this was the first real stage performance by this quartet,

              > I cannot imagine anything we could have done that would have

              > gathered more attention. So, in the end, this was probably a

              > great marketing ploy for the quartet, although we certainly

              > never expected it.



              In my 20+ years, I've seen both quartets and choruses "use" the contest stage to make a statement like this. Religious or non-barbershop songs to remember a member that has passed, comedy that is pushing the envelope of good taste for quartet PR, pushing the limit of who can be on stage, etc. It seems to me that there is a time and place to make these type of performances: Mic-testing, afterglows, special performances before or after the contest. Even if the motivations are noble, the contest stage is still not the place for such performances. The contest stage is for contest purposes only.



              It seems to me that the consequences of consciously making a choice like these should be more than just losing points. In most cases, the performers know ahead of time that a stiff penalty and/or DQ is going to happen and are willing to take the penalty for being able to use the contest stage to make their point!



              Should there be something more significant for these flagrant violations?? Sitting out a contest cycle, pre-approval of material for the next contest come to mind.



              In the end, the contest stage is not just ANY stage and there are certain parameters for what is to be done and not done there. Groups should not be allowed to be able to flippantly cast aside the rules just to promote themselves or to make a personal point.



              There is a time and place for everything,



              Bruce Baedke <><



              --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, "quartetmandh" <quartetmandh@...> wrote:

              >

              > Does anyone have any results of the quartet prelims at the LOL District Convention??

              >

              >

              > Thanks!!

              >

              > David Haase

              >


















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bill Byrd
              John, A chapter in MAD did that a few years ago, Princeton New jersey, Under the direction of Rich Levine. They did it so as to not spend the summer working on
              Message 6 of 24 , May 8, 2013
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                John,
                A chapter in MAD did that a few years ago, Princeton New jersey, Under the
                direction of Rich Levine. They did it so as to not spend the summer working
                on "just two songs..." They sang very well.
                Bill Byrd


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bruce B
                Bad placement and lower scores is what is already not working. Quartets are disregarding any penalties. My suggestion is that quartets submit with their
                Message 7 of 24 , May 8, 2013
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                  Bad placement and lower scores is what is already not working. Quartets are disregarding any penalties. My suggestion is that quartets submit with their contest registration, their agreement to a check list of things that are not allowed on contest stage. Quartets already have to submit paperwork on arrangements and copyright information already. Adding this extra step would insure that quartets are informed of the rules and any consequences for any violation.

                  Judging by the varied responses here and in my inbox, it seems that that there is a big difference in opinions about what is and isn't a problem. All the more reason that some system to make this clear is necessary.

                  Bruce Baedke <><


                  --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, Bruce <bruce.checca@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Well, from where I sit Bruce... "Yes...yes you are"! :-D The problem
                  > with pre-qualifying is where do you set the limit... and who does that?
                  > Bad placement / lower scores are the way to control that best it seems.
                  >
                  > Bruce Checca
                  >
                  > On 5/8/2013 4:40 PM, Bruce B wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Am I the only one getting annoyed by groups "using" the Contest stage
                  > > (by way of purposefully breaking the rules) as a means of advertising
                  > > their performance for prospective shows or to make a point? Not that
                  > > this is getting out of hand but it seems there is at least one
                  > > performance a contest cycle that seems to fit the type that we're
                  > > discussing here.
                  > >
                  >
                  > ...then...
                  >
                  > It seems to me that the consequences of consciously making a choice like
                  > these should be more than just losing points. In most cases, the
                  > performers know ahead of time that a stiff penalty and/or DQ is going to
                  > happen and are willing to take the penalty for being able to use the
                  > contest stage to make their point!
                  >
                  > Should there be something more significant for these flagrant
                  > violations?? Sitting out a contest cycle, pre-approval of material for
                  > the next contest come to mind.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Bruce Baedke <><
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Shelley Herman
                  Life has too many rules already. So long as they don t break the rules of good taste (keeping it G rated) let the quartets do what they want. If they get
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 8, 2013
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                    Life has too many rules already. So long as they don't break the
                    rules of good taste (keeping it G rated) let the quartets do what they
                    want. If they get DQ'd, so what. The more participants we have in
                    contests the better. If some want to hoke it up, well that's up to
                    them. It's also a welcome relief for the audience. If you have ever
                    sat through international quarter finals you pray for a comedy quartet.

                    Let them do what they want. If the audience is enjoying it, they all
                    understand the contest rules and know that everyone is not going to
                    make the cut.

                    I always remember the Manhatters lead, Don Galvin, going on stage at
                    every contest saying: "I know where the judges are, point me at the
                    show chairmen." The only time they ever made the top ten was when
                    there were only eight contestants. They never won a contest and never
                    lost a show!

                    Shelley Herman
                    saherman@...




                    On May 8, 2013, at 5:24 PM, Bruce B wrote:

                    > Bad placement and lower scores is what is already not working.
                    > Quartets are disregarding any penalties. My suggestion is that
                    > quartets submit with their contest registration, their agreement to
                    > a check list of things that are not allowed on contest stage.
                    > Quartets already have to submit paperwork on arrangements and
                    > copyright information already. Adding this extra step would insure
                    > that quartets are informed of the rules and any consequences for any
                    > violation.
                    >
                    > Judging by the varied responses here and in my inbox, it seems that
                    > that there is a big difference in opinions about what is and isn't a
                    > problem. All the more reason that some system to make this clear is
                    > necessary.
                    >
                    > Bruce Baedke <><
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In bbshop@yahoogroups.com, Bruce <bruce.checca@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Well, from where I sit Bruce... "Yes...yes you are"! :-D The
                    >> problem
                    >> with pre-qualifying is where do you set the limit... and who does
                    >> that?
                    >> Bad placement / lower scores are the way to control that best it
                    >> seems.
                    >>
                    >> Bruce Checca
                    >>
                    >> On 5/8/2013 4:40 PM, Bruce B wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>> Am I the only one getting annoyed by groups "using" the Contest
                    >>> stage
                    >>> (by way of purposefully breaking the rules) as a means of
                    >>> advertising
                    >>> their performance for prospective shows or to make a point? Not that
                    >>> this is getting out of hand but it seems there is at least one
                    >>> performance a contest cycle that seems to fit the type that we're
                    >>> discussing here.
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >> ...then...
                    >>
                    >> It seems to me that the consequences of consciously making a choice
                    >> like
                    >> these should be more than just losing points. In most cases, the
                    >> performers know ahead of time that a stiff penalty and/or DQ is
                    >> going to
                    >> happen and are willing to take the penalty for being able to use the
                    >> contest stage to make their point!
                    >>
                    >> Should there be something more significant for these flagrant
                    >> violations?? Sitting out a contest cycle, pre-approval of material
                    >> for
                    >> the next contest come to mind.
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> Bruce Baedke <><
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jim Emery
                    Bruce Baedke s accusations in this forum with respect to my quartet s recent contest performance are simply wrong and reflect that he didn t read my post very
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 8, 2013
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                      Bruce Baedke's accusations in this forum with respect to my quartet's
                      recent contest performance are simply wrong and reflect that he didn't read
                      my post very carefully.

                      -- Jim
                      ___________________________________________________
                      Jim Emery
                      Singing Judge
                      Quartet & chorus coach
                      www.barbershopcoach.com


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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