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RE: [bbshop] Re: Remaking our SPEBSQSA (BHS) Structure

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  • Marty Israel
    Hi Netters, For those that disagree that in order to attract new members, we must offer a better quality product, I m sorry you feel that way, and I offer this
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 1, 2013
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      Hi Netters, For those that disagree that in order to attract new members, we must offer a better quality product, I'm sorry you feel that way, and I offer this argument. If you go to a restauarnt and the food is of poor quality and/or the service is bad, do you go back? If you have a bad experience regarding service or product at a store, do you go back for more? If the answer is no, than I would ask you why we are any different? I don't mean for this to be argumentative or mean-spirited or anything else of a negative impact, and I certainly don't mean to imply that those that refuse to acknowledge my point are bad people or anything of the sort. But today's public wants quality for their hard-earned buck. If someone who sang when he/she went to school is looking for someplace to sing, but has limited time and financial resources, as so many of today's folk in the 21-45 age bracket seem to have, and there is a choice between a good singing community choir and a mediocre singing barbershop chapter, they are going to pick the organization with the better product. We are a singing community (Let's not leave the ladies out!!). Our product is our performance. Larry (and I have no wish to make this personal; I'm simply disagreeing with you), I'm sorry you consider it an "old song", but it isn't going to change or go away. BHS's history has proven it. The point was made that the large chapters continue to attract members. Of course they do; how many of these larger chapters sing poorly? It isn't a question of unreasonably high quality; it's simply a matter of offering a good product. When someone likes what they are doing, they want to do it again. When someone does not like what they are doing, and they are able to change it or drop it altogether, they will. It's true everywhere else; why shouldn't it be true for us? It should not be a case or either/or (good quality product or aggresive membership campaigns). It should be both. Canto ergo sum Marty IsraelLong live the 7th
      To: rapport1@...
      CC: larry4lead@...; bbshop@yahoogroups.com
      From: nkfraf@...
      Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 22:03:17 -0500
      Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Remaking our SPEBSQSA (BHS) Structure


























      Whooo-ee!



      "Leaders" have bought into the concept " that poor singers are making

      the Society 'look bad' and are trying to help them 'learn to sing

      better'? This is a bad thing HOW? IMHO I don't think anyone joins a

      singing organization/group/chapter wanting to sing poorly! I think we

      all want to do the best job we know how. If there are people out there

      who've taken the time and made the effort to help us learn to really

      "ring" chords and do it properly -- turning diphthongs together, aiming

      to hit the same vowel sound at the same time, breathing properly to

      support the sound, not "honking" chords -- then let 'em have at me so I

      can learn too.



      This is NOT aimed at "just" competition: our audiences are expecting

      good sounds, good entertainment -- even if we are NOT professional. We

      owe them to do the very best we can do. This can be accomplished in any

      chorus -- with training, concentration on developing good singing

      habits, determination and the sound of applause from a satisfied

      audience! Nobody "strives" to do less, eh?



      I don't think the international structure is bent on making all 600+

      choruses competition-qualiied. I think they are trying to help 'em all

      be better singers, and to that end they're offering educational

      opportunities so membership can accomplish that -- to whatever level

      they aspire.



      ...but that's just my opinion!

      N. Foris, 49-yr. HI member

      Triple crown QT winner

      9-time chorus champ who hangs with the right people

      BHS Associate and former employee
















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • larry4lead
      Nancy, I agree with almost everything you are saying... The Poor singing groups I am referring to ARE singing their best....I have monitored some of those
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 1, 2013
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        Nancy,

        I agree with almost everything you are saying...

        The Poor singing groups I am referring to ARE singing their best....I have monitored some of those groups over a period of years....and they never improve. New members often transfer within the first year to other nearby chapters (rather than stay and help them evolve)....and they seem to be stuck at ground level.

             This is not really all that bad....they are enthusiastic...and they arehappy. The frustration (for me) is other barbershoppers (worried about their image) try to discourage them from singing in public. I notice you used the phrase " our audiences are expecting good sounds, good entertainment -- even if we are NOT professional. " This is a variation of the phrase, "The puiblic expects a certain level of c ompetence..".. I believe that is not true. I think talented singers have convinced themselves that this public awareness exists....I do not.

             This idea brings to mind a quartet Ifrom one of my early chapters.....They could not even tune up on pitch....They would start flat...and deteriorate as they sang. But, to my amazement, they w ere always busy....with many return engagements. I have never met a more enthusiastic foursome, and  I have never been able to explain this....but its true.

               On another occassion (at a District Convention) we had formed a pick-up-quartet in a restaurant. Several people gathered to hear us sing, and praised our ability. Just then, the district champs w alked in....and I saw a golden opportunity to impress John Q. Public.... So I said, "you ain't heard nothin' yet...Listen to these guys..;" That quartet sang a great song...on pitch...in sy nc....everything you'd expect. When they were done, our mini audience said, "We liked your quartet better!" So when I hear a barbershopper say, "the public expects..." I just tune them out...because they are ( in my opinion) so full of themselves, that they feel they can talk down to other performers.... And that's precisely what I can't stand.

        I am sure there is no malice in your heart....I just believe that people should be encouraged to sing their best....but not "required" to sing better.

        Thanks for caring enuf to respond,

        Larry Robinson

        P.S. I'd be interested to know, if the shoe was on the other foot, would your position change?

        Let's suppose you had troub le "hearing the tonal center" b ut loved to sing. You visited a quality chapter, and took their training program. They informed you that, because of your "pitc h" problems, you did not qualify for admission....but, they referred you to a nearby "social" chapter. You were welcomed with open arms, and as soon as y ou learned their repertoire and choreography...you were allowed to sing in their performance chorus. It was the happiest day of your life!

        If this "was" you....Would you sing with this group? Or would you get a new hobby, because you knew of your limitations?





        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Nancy K. Foris" <nkfraf@...>
        To: "Stephen Rafe" <rapport1@...>
        Cc: larry4lead@..., "SEND TO HARMONET" <bbshop@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 11:03:17 PM
        Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Remaking our SPEBSQSA (BHS) Structure

        Whooo-ee!

        "Leaders" have bought into the concept " that poor singers are making
        the Society 'look bad'  and are trying to help them 'learn to sing
        better'?  This is a bad thing HOW?  IMHO I don't think anyone joins a
        singing organization/group/chapter wanting to sing poorly! I think we
        all want to do the best job we know how.  If there are people out there
        who've taken the time and made the effort to help us learn to really
        "ring" chords and do it properly -- turning diphthongs together, aiming
        to hit the same vowel sound at the same time, breathing properly to
        support the sound, not "honking" chords -- then let 'em have at me so I
        can learn too.

        This is NOT aimed at "just" competition:  our audiences are expecting
        good sounds, good entertainment -- even if we are NOT professional. We
        owe them to do the very best we can do. This can be accomplished in any
        chorus -- with training, concentration on developing good singing
        habits, determination and the sound of applause from a satisfied
        audience!  Nobody "strives" to do less, eh?

        I don't think the international structure is bent on making all 600+
        choruses competition-qualiied.  I think they are trying to help 'em all
        be better singers, and to that end they're offering educational
        opportunities so membership can accomplish that -- to whatever level
        they aspire.

        ...but that's just my opinion!
        N. Foris, 49-yr. HI member
        Triple crown QT winner
        9-time chorus champ who hangs with the right people
        BHS Associate and former employee


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • larry4lead
        Marty, Thanks for an encouraging and inciteful respose. There s not a doubt in my mind that you are a passionate and successful barbershopper. unfortunately,
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 1, 2013
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          Marty,

          Thanks for an encouraging and inciteful respose. There's not a doubt in my mind that you are a passionate and successful barbershopper. unfortunately, we don't seem to agree.

          I have never been a leader....but, I'm a helluva good follower. I have sung with social chapters and competition chapters...and they have both taught me a lot. I admire and support those who strive to excel....but, my sympathies lie with those less gifted members whose goal is their weekly meeting with friends, who are kind enough to overlook the ir deficiencies, and sing some barbershop with them. And, if they are fortunate enogh to perform for the public...I expect the public will enjoy it (it's a hobby, not a business).

          Larry Robinson


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Marty Israel" <firmbari@...>
          To: "Nancy K. Foris" <nkfraf@...>, "Stephen Rafe" <rapport1@...>
          Cc: larry4lead@..., bbshop@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 4:00:41 AM
          Subject: RE: [bbshop] Re: Remaking our SPEBSQSA (BHS) Structure


          Hi Netters,
           
          For those that disagree that in order to attract new members, we must offer a better quality product, I'm sorry you feel that way, and I offer this argument.
           
          If you go to a restauarnt and the food is of poor quality and/or the service is bad, do you go back?  If you have a bad experience regarding service or product at a store, do you go back for more?  If the answer is no, than I would ask you why we are any different?
           
          I don't mean for this to be argumentative or mean-spirited or anything else of a negative impact, and I certainly don't mean to imply that those that refuse to acknowledge my point are bad people or anything of the sort.
           
          But today's public wants quality for their hard-earned buck.  If someone who sang when he/she went to school is looking for someplace to sing, but has limited time and financial resources, as so many of today's folk in the 21-45 age bracket seem to have, and there is a choice between a good singing community choir and a mediocre singing barbershop chapter, they are going to pick the organization with the better product.
           
          We are a singing community (Let's not leave the ladies out!!).  Our product is our performance.  Larry (and I have no wish to make this personal; I'm simply disagreeing with you), I'm sorry you consider it an "old song", but it isn't going to change or go away.  BHS's history has proven it.  The point was made that the large chapters continue to attract members.  Of course they do; how many of these larger chapters sing poorly?
           
          It isn't a question of unreasonably high quality; it's simply a matter of offering a good product.  When someone likes what they are doing, they want to do it again.  When someone does not like what they are doing, and they are able to change it or drop it altogether, they will.  It's true everywhere else; why shouldn't it be true for us?
           
          It should not be a case or either/or (good quality product or aggresive membership campaigns).  It should be both.
           
          Canto ergo sum
           
          Marty Israel
          Long live the 7th
           

           



          To: rapport1@...
          CC: larry4lead@...; bbshop@yahoogroups.com
          From: nkfraf@...
          Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 22:03:17 -0500
          Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Remaking our SPEBSQSA (BHS) Structure

           


          Whooo-ee!

          "Leaders" have bought into the concept " that poor singers are making
          the Society 'look bad' and are trying to help them 'learn to sing
          better'? This is a bad thing HOW? IMHO I don't think anyone joins a
          singing organization/group/chapter wanting to sing poorly! I think we
          all want to do the best job we know how. If there are people out there
          who've taken the time and made the effort to help us learn to really
          "ring" chords and do it properly -- turning diphthongs together, aiming
          to hit the same vowel sound at the same time, breathing properly to
          support the sound, not "honking" chords -- then let 'em have at me so I
          can learn too.

          This is NOT aimed at "just" competition: our audiences are expecting
          good sounds, good entertainment -- even if we are NOT professional. We
          owe them to do the very best we can do. This can be accomplished in any
          chorus -- with training, concentration on developing good singing
          habits, determination and the sound of applause from a satisfied
          audience! Nobody "strives" to do less, eh?

          I don't think the international structure is bent on making all 600+
          choruses competition-qualiied. I think they are trying to help 'em all
          be better singers, and to that end they're offering educational
          opportunities so membership can accomplish that -- to whatever level
          they aspire.

          ...but that's just my opinion!
          N. Foris, 49-yr. HI member
          Triple crown QT winner
          9-time chorus champ who hangs with the right people
          BHS Associate and former employee




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Elving
          Larry – What you say may be true for some people, but in large part the population has become accustomed to the “perfect” performance every time they
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 1, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Larry –

            What you say may be true for some people, but in large part the population has become accustomed to the “perfect” performance every time they listen to a CD, television, movies or the radio. In the past many years, especially since digital recording made it easy, we hear performances that are spliced together of many takes in the recording studio. We have become so used to those “perfect” performances that we have come to expect it every time by every group.

            I can site just as many instances as you with just the opposite outcome. Take for instance the use of Barbershop on television. It is seldom flattering, unless it is something like having one of our champion quartets on as a special guest. What they hear is a parody of what people expect when they will see with a real quartet. Those strictly “social” chapters are fine, but IMHO they are hurting the Society in the long run. We have seen right here on the Harmonet that several chapters have begun to grow (and fill their auditoriums) when they decided to put forth the work necessary to become better. I’ve been a part of both, and believe me it is more fun for all if the chorus sings well, works at getting better, and in the process has fun, gains new members and build an appreciative audience. They all of a sudden become a part of the musical culture of the community and are put on equal footing as the other musical organizations within the community. That’s worth a lot in gaining acceptance in the community.

            Just my thoughts.

            Sing-cerely & Humm-bly,

            John Elving
            Editor-in-Cheap, Shrine of Democracy Chorus
            Bass – SOUND ENGINEERING Quartet
            RMD Exec. VP
            PROBE President
            OIF Trainer, SOP Evaluator
            mailto:leaderman@...
            605-381-9680
            Skype: john.elving



            From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of larry4lead@...
            Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 12:05 PM
            To: Nancy K. Foris
            Cc: SEND TO HARMONET; Stephen Rafe
            Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Remaking our SPEBSQSA (BHS) Structure

            Nancy,

            I agree with almost everything you are saying...

            The Poor singing groups I am referring to ARE singing their best....I have monitored some of those groups over a period of years....and they never improve. New members often transfer within the first year to other nearby chapters (rather than stay and help them evolve)....and they seem to be stuck at ground level.

            This is not really all that bad....they are enthusiastic...and they are happy. The frustration (for me) is other barbershoppers (worried about their image) try to discourage them from singing in public. I notice you used the phrase " our audiences are expecting good sounds, good entertainment -- even if we are NOT professional. " This is a variation of the phrase, "The public expects a certain level of c ompetence..".. I believe that is not true. I think talented singers have convinced themselves that this public awareness exists....I do not.

            This idea brings to mind a quartet Ifrom one of my early chapters.....They could not even tune up on pitch....They would start flat...and deteriorate as they sang. But, to my amazement, they w ere always busy....with many return engagements. I have never met a more enthusiastic foursome, and I have never been able to explain this....but its true.

            On another occassion (at a District Convention) we had formed a pick-up-quartet in a restaurant. Several people gathered to hear us sing, and praised our ability. Just then, the district champs w alked in....and I saw a golden opportunity to impress John Q. Public.... So I said, "you ain't heard nothin' yet...Listen to these guys..;" That quartet sang a great song...on pitch...in sy nc....everything you'd expect. When they were done, our mini audience said, "We liked your quartet better!" So when I hear a barbershopper say, "the public expects..." I just tune them out...because they are ( in my opinion) so full of themselves, that they feel they can talk down to other performers.... And that's precisely what I can't stand.

            I am sure there is no malice in your heart....I just believe that people should be encouraged to sing their best....but not "required" to sing better.

            Thanks for caring enuf to respond,

            Larry Robinson

            P.S. I'd be interested to know, if the shoe was on the other foot, would your position change?

            Let's suppose you had troub le "hearing the tonal center" b ut loved to sing. You visited a quality chapter, and took their training program. They informed you that, because of your "pitc h" problems, you did not qualify for admission....but, they referred you to a nearby "social" chapter. You were welcomed with open arms, and as soon as y ou learned their repertoire and choreography...you were allowed to sing in their performance chorus. It was the happiest day of your life!

            If this "was" you....Would you sing with this group? Or would you get a new hobby, because you knew of your limitations?
          • larry4lead
            John, Thanks for the response....I must admit, my happiest moments (by volume) occurred while I was singing with the better singers. But for cameraderie,
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 1, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              John,

              Thanks for the response....I must admit, my happiest moments (by volume) occurred while I was singing with the better singers. But for cameraderie, acceptance and respect, the scales shift dramatoicall to the more mundane groups.

              The job list in your signature block is very impressive....I never met a bulletin editor I din't like....and involvement in leadership roles indicates a genuine love of our hobby....congratulations.

              Larry Robinson

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "John Elving" <leaderman@...>
              To: larry4lead@..., "Nancy K. Foris" <nkfraf@...>
              Cc: "SEND TO HARMONET" <bbshop@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 2:48:34 PM
              Subject: RE: [bbshop] Re: Remaking our SPEBSQSA (BHS) Structure

              Larry –

              What you say may be true for some people, but in large part the population has become accustomed to the “perfect” performance every time they listen to a CD, television, movies or the radio. In the past many years, especially since digital recording made it easy, we hear performances that are spliced together of many takes in the recording studio. We have become so used to those “perfect” performances that we have come to expect it every time by every group.

              I can site just as many instances as you with just the opposite outcome. Take for instance the use of Barbershop on television. It is seldom flattering, unless it is something like having one of our champion quartets on as a special guest. What they hear is a parody of what people expect when they will see with a real quartet. Those strictly “social” chapters are fine, but IMHO they are hurting the Society in the long run. We have seen right here on the Harmonet that several chapters have begun to grow (and fill their auditoriums) when they decided to put forth the work necessary to become better. I’ve been a part of both, and believe me it is more fun for all if the chorus sings well, works at getting better, and in the process has fun, gains new members and build an appreciative audience. They all of a sudden become a part of the musical culture of the community and are put on equal footing as the other musical organizations within the community. That’s worth a lot in gaining acceptance in the community.

              Just my thoughts.

              Sing-cerely & Humm-bly,

              John Elving
              Editor-in-Cheap, Shrine of Democracy Chorus
              Bass – SOUND ENGINEERING Quartet
              RMD Exec. VP
              PROBE President
              OIF Trainer, SOP Evaluator
              mailto:leaderman@...
              605-381-9680
              Skype: john.elving

               

              From: bbshop@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of larry4lead@...
              Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 12:05 PM
              To: Nancy K. Foris
              Cc: SEND TO HARMONET; Stephen Rafe
              Subject: Re: [bbshop] Re: Remaking our SPEBSQSA (BHS) Structure

              Nancy,

              I agree with almost everything you are saying...

              The Poor singing groups I am referring to ARE singing their best....I have monitored some of those groups over a period of years....and they never improve. New members often transfer within the first year to other nearby chapters (rather than stay and help them evolve)....and they seem to be stuck at ground level.

                   This is not really all that bad....they are enthusiastic...and they are happy. The frustration (for me) is other barbershoppers (worried about their image) try to discourage them from singing in public. I notice you used the phrase " our audiences are expecting good sounds, good entertainment -- even if we are NOT professional. " This is a variation of the phrase, "The public expects a certain level of c ompetence..".. I believe that is not true. I think talented singers have convinced themselves that this public awareness exists....I do not.

                   This idea brings to mind a quartet Ifrom one of my early chapters.....They could not even tune up on pitch....They would start flat...and deteriorate as they sang. But, to my amazement, they w ere always busy....with many return engagements. I have never met a more enthusiastic foursome, and  I have never been able to explain this....but its true.

                     On another occassion (at a District Convention) we had formed a pick-up-quartet in a restaurant. Several people gathered to hear us sing, and praised our ability. Just then, the district champs w alked in....and I saw a golden opportunity to impress John Q. Public.... So I said, "you ain't heard nothin' yet...Listen to these guys..;" That quartet sang a great song...on pitch...in sy nc....everything you'd expect. When they were done, our mini audience said, "We liked your quartet better!" So when I hear a barbershopper say, "the public expects..." I just tune them out...because they are ( in my opinion) so full of themselves, that they feel they can talk down to other performers.... And that's precisely what I can't stand.

              I am sure there is no malice in your heart....I just believe that people should be encouraged to sing their best....but not "required" to sing better.

              Thanks for caring enuf to respond,

              Larry Robinson

              P.S. I'd be interested to know, if the shoe was on the other foot, would your position change?

              Let's suppose you had troub le "hearing the tonal center" b ut loved to sing. You visited a quality chapter, and took their training program. They informed you that, because of your "pitc h" problems, you did not qualify for admission....but, they referred you to a nearby "social" chapter. You were welcomed with open arms, and as soon as y ou learned their repertoire and choreography...you were allowed to sing in their performance chorus. It was the happiest day of your life!

              If this "was" you....Would you sing with this group? Or would you get a new hobby, because you knew of your limitations?



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Marti Lovejoy
              Someone mentioned that they had the chorus members raise their hands if they didn t read music at the end of the show and got a gasp from the audience. Well,
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 2, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Someone mentioned that they had the chorus members raise their hands if
                they didn't read music at the end of the show and got a gasp from the
                audience. Well, I can tell you one thing - those super choruses also
                have many men (or women) who don't read music.

                The exalted audition that many of these super choruses have consists of
                determining if the person can sing in the right key after being started
                on a simple song (yes, I know some go a little further, but they have
                earned the right).

                I think you'd find a whole passle of singers in the Vocal Majority or
                Masters of Harmony, etc., who wouldn't be comfortable singing a solo -
                that's why they sought out a group-singing experience. They get their
                jollies by adding to a terrific performing ensemble and they work very
                hard (probably on their own, between chapter meetings) in order to sure
                they are contributing to the VERY best of their ability.

                One of the better SAI coaches I every heard said it's all about "being
                great in a group." And great doesn't have to be A level or even B level
                - it's just guys (or ladies) singing mostly in tune, correct words and
                notes, with lots of enthusiasm. I don't think that's too much to ask.

                Marti Lovejoy
                Proud Owner of SING & SCORES
                SING members have donated over $85,000
                to the YSF since 2002
                Life Member, Texas, USA - 41 years so far
                http: //groups.yahoo . com/group/SweetAdelinesScores
                lovejoymar @ sbcglobal.net<--remove spaces from link and edress
              • Tom Schleier
                Our director, for a guest night, said 50% of our members can t read music, and the rest can t read at all! Got a big laugh. Tom Schleier
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 2, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Our director, for a guest night, said 50% of our members can't read music, and the rest can't read at all!

                  Got a big laugh.

                  Tom Schleier

                  On Apr 2, 2013, at 6:41 PM, Marti Lovejoy <lovejoymar@...> wrote:

                  > Someone mentioned that they had the chorus members raise their hands if
                  > they didn't read music at the end of the show and got a gasp from the
                  > audience. Well, I can tell you one thing - those super choruses also
                  > have many men (or women) who don't read music.
                  >
                  > The exalted audition that many of these super choruses have consists of
                  > determining if the person can sing in the right key after being started
                  > on a simple song (yes, I know some go a little further, but they have
                  > earned the right).
                  >
                  > I think you'd find a whole passle of singers in the Vocal Majority or
                  > Masters of Harmony, etc., who wouldn't be comfortable singing a solo -
                  > that's why they sought out a group-singing experience. They get their
                  > jollies by adding to a terrific performing ensemble and they work very
                  > hard (probably on their own, between chapter meetings) in order to sure
                  > they are contributing to the VERY best of their ability.
                  >
                  > One of the better SAI coaches I every heard said it's all about "being
                  > great in a group." And great doesn't have to be A level or even B level
                  > - it's just guys (or ladies) singing mostly in tune, correct words and
                  > notes, with lots of enthusiasm. I don't think that's too much to ask.
                  >
                  > Marti Lovejoy
                  > Proud Owner of SING & SCORES
                  > SING members have donated over $85,000
                  > to the YSF since 2002
                  > Life Member, Texas, USA - 41 years so far
                  > http: //groups.yahoo . com/group/SweetAdelinesScores
                  > lovejoymar @ sbcglobal.net<--remove spaces from link and edress
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
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