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Re: [Spam] Re: [bbshop] Re: Society and declining membership. Hello?

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  • Stephen Rafe
    If only that would work. Competitors are high achievers; Fun singers (for lack of a better term) are socializers. They rarely blend well in the same
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 29, 2013
      If only that would work.

      Competitors are high achievers; "Fun singers" (for lack of a better term) are socializers. They rarely blend well in the same organization. In the long run, one will win out. Usually this happens through attrition with the high achievers moving to other choruses and the socializers (technically called "affiliators") hanging on. Sometimes though, the achievers will stay and control who sings by imposing auditions and qualifications for singing. It all depends upon the leadership (the third drive which also involves the "control" factor).

      Naturally, a chorus of achievers can and does socialize but not to the extent that socializer choruses do. And choruses that are largely made up of affiliators can and practice come element of achievement (e.g., trying to sing better). For sure, though, it's rare indeed for one chapter to accommodate both types and be successful. The achievers won't want to "waste time with all that other stuff" (a direct quote) and the affiliators won't want to "spend months of entire meetings on getting ready for competition" (another direct quote).

      Stephen
      STEPHEN RAFE
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: lovejoymar@...
      To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 7:10 PM
      Subject: [Spam] Re: [bbshop] Re: Society and declining membership. Hello?


      If all the people who think there is too much emphasis on competition got out there and each invited one or two or three men to join, they would have lots of new friends to do barbershop "their way."

      And the contest-happy people could continue to enjoy the hobby "their way," too.

      And all could be part of the same organization!

      Marti Lovejoy


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Marti Lovejoy
      OH, but it WOULD work, because the fun guys would be recruiting for their own fun chapter. It s been said here how small a percentage of the organization
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 29, 2013
        OH, but it WOULD work, because the "fun" guys would be recruiting for
        their own "fun" chapter. It's been said here how small a percentage of
        the organization participates in international competition... that means
        there a a potload of chapters that are NOT emphasizing competition and,
        as you say, are socializers - let's have them get out there and
        socialize the heck out of the other men in their communities and grow
        the "fun" part of this Society!

        If both types of members would quit trying to change each other and just
        do what they like and share it with men they think will enjoy it, too,
        the Society would be growing by leaps and bounds.

        BHS doesn't need to throw out leaders - it needs to have members who
        take responsibility for their own little corner of the BHS world and
        make a big success THERE (and leave the other guys who like it a
        different way alone). BTW, the competing chapters are having so much
        fun doing it "their" way, they often attract singers without even trying
        too hard!

        Marti


        On 3/29/2013 6:32 PM, Stephen Rafe wrote:
        > If only that would work.
        > Competitors are high achievers; "Fun singers" (for lack of a better
        > term) are socializers. They rarely blend well in the same
        > organization. In the long run, one will win out. Usually this happens
        > through attrition with the high achievers moving to other choruses and
        > the socializers (technically called "affiliators") hanging on.
        > Sometimes though, the achievers will stay and control who sings by
        > imposing auditions and qualifications for singing. It all depends upon
        > the leadership (the third drive which also involves the "control"
        > factor).
        > Naturally, a chorus of achievers can and does socialize but not to the
        > extent that socializer choruses do. And choruses that are largely made
        > up of affiliators can and practice come element of achievement (e.g.,
        > trying to sing better). For sure, though, it's rare indeed for one
        > chapter to accommodate both types and be successful. The achievers
        > won't want to "waste time with all that other stuff" (a direct quote)
        > and the affiliators won't want to "spend months of entire meetings on
        > getting ready for competition" (another direct quote).
        > Stephen
        > STEPHEN RAFE
        > ----- Original Message -----
        >
        > *From:* lovejoymar@... <mailto:lovejoymar@...>
        > *To:* bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com>
        > *Sent:* Friday, March 29, 2013 7:10 PM
        > *Subject:* [Spam] Re: [bbshop] Re: Society and declining
        > membership. Hello?
        >
        > If all the people who think there is too much emphasis on
        > competition got out there and each invited one or two or three men
        > to join, they would have lots of new friends to do barbershop
        > "their way."
        >
        > And the contest-happy people could continue to enjoy the hobby
        > "their way," too.
        >
        > And all could be part of the same organization!
        >
        > Marti Lovejoy
        >
      • Marty Israel
        Hi Netters, I just read the last 20-30 posts on the subject. Maybe I missed the point, but in most of the posts stating that something needs to be fixed, what
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 29, 2013
          Hi Netters, I just read the last 20-30 posts on the subject. Maybe I missed the point, but in most of the posts stating that something needs to be fixed, what actually needs to be fixed seems to be left out. What is it that actually needs fixing? In my opinion, it's the level of product that we give the public. More than a few years ago, I was judging a contest, and this chorus came out and I think the average score was around a 38. It was a dreadful performance. When the performance was over and the scores were turned in, the judge sitting next to me turned to me and asked "Do you think they're doing anybody any good when they sing in public?" Like anything else, the public wants quality. There are too many groups (choruses and quartets) that sing at a relatively poor level, so much so that when they sing in public, most do not want to hear them. I'm not talking about International Championship calibur. I'm talking about good performances. Too many hide behind "We're a Fun Chorus!!" and similar attitudes, and simply don't care about whether or not they are offering a quality product to the public. How can you profess that, once someone experiences the joy of ringing some chords they will be hooked, when many can't do that despite the advantage of having "rehearsed" their songs? A couple of e-mails here talk about joining a "fun chapter." I would question why a chapter that does not have International aspirations should automatically be considered a "fun chapter." On the other hand, I agree a million percent that many no longer care about competition. I'm one of them. Due to recent rule changes and the acceptance of many songs that shouldn't be accepted in contest, many barbershop friends and acquaintences of mine do not attend Internationals any more and will only attend Division and District competitions if they are participating in them. Perhaps the next time rule changes and other new regulations are voted upon, those that do the voting might take the time to be sure it's what the general membership really wants, and that it doesn't benefit only one specific subgroup of the Society. I'm a lifer. I've been a member since 1971. I've competed at International with three different chapters. I'm not going anywhere. But, I really don't have much interest anymore in who wins contests unless they are friends of mine. I attend my chapter meetings (Yes, I compete with my chapter.). I sing in quartets (I'm between quartets at the moment - we're looking for a tenor and a bass). I do a few other things at the local level. That's enough for me at the moment. One last thought - one of the e-mails in this post mentioned that there are chapters with the bare minimum of members - eight or so. Part distribution notwithstanding, is there any reason why they can't sing well? Fire away, Netters!!!! It's been a while. Thanks for reading!! Canto ergo sum Marty IsraelLong live the 7th
          To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
          From: lovejoymar@...
          Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 22:13:27 -0500
          Subject: Re: [Spam] Re: [bbshop] Re: Society and declining membership. Hello?


























          OH, but it WOULD work, because the "fun" guys would be recruiting for

          their own "fun" chapter. It's been said here how small a percentage of

          the organization participates in international competition... that means

          there a a potload of chapters that are NOT emphasizing competition and,

          as you say, are socializers - let's have them get out there and

          socialize the heck out of the other men in their communities and grow

          the "fun" part of this Society!



          If both types of members would quit trying to change each other and just

          do what they like and share it with men they think will enjoy it, too,

          the Society would be growing by leaps and bounds.



          BHS doesn't need to throw out leaders - it needs to have members who

          take responsibility for their own little corner of the BHS world and

          make a big success THERE (and leave the other guys who like it a

          different way alone). BTW, the competing chapters are having so much

          fun doing it "their" way, they often attract singers without even trying

          too hard!



          Marti



          On 3/29/2013 6:32 PM, Stephen Rafe wrote:

          > If only that would work.

          > Competitors are high achievers; "Fun singers" (for lack of a better

          > term) are socializers. They rarely blend well in the same

          > organization. In the long run, one will win out. Usually this happens

          > through attrition with the high achievers moving to other choruses and

          > the socializers (technically called "affiliators") hanging on.

          > Sometimes though, the achievers will stay and control who sings by

          > imposing auditions and qualifications for singing. It all depends upon

          > the leadership (the third drive which also involves the "control"

          > factor).

          > Naturally, a chorus of achievers can and does socialize but not to the

          > extent that socializer choruses do. And choruses that are largely made

          > up of affiliators can and practice come element of achievement (e.g.,

          > trying to sing better). For sure, though, it's rare indeed for one

          > chapter to accommodate both types and be successful. The achievers

          > won't want to "waste time with all that other stuff" (a direct quote)

          > and the affiliators won't want to "spend months of entire meetings on

          > getting ready for competition" (another direct quote).

          > Stephen

          > STEPHEN RAFE

          > ----- Original Message -----

          >

          > *From:* lovejoymar@... <mailto:lovejoymar@...>

          > *To:* bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com>

          > *Sent:* Friday, March 29, 2013 7:10 PM

          > *Subject:* [Spam] Re: [bbshop] Re: Society and declining

          > membership. Hello?

          >

          > If all the people who think there is too much emphasis on

          > competition got out there and each invited one or two or three men

          > to join, they would have lots of new friends to do barbershop

          > "their way."

          >

          > And the contest-happy people could continue to enjoy the hobby

          > "their way," too.

          >

          > And all could be part of the same organization!

          >

          > Marti Lovejoy

          >


















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Marty Israel
          Hi Netters, I just read the last 20-30 posts on the subject. Maybe I missed the point, but in most of the posts stating that something needs to be fixed, what
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 29, 2013
            Hi Netters, I just read the last 20-30 posts on the subject. Maybe I missed the point, but in most of the posts stating that something needs to be fixed, what actually needs to be fixed seems to be left out. What is it that actually needs fixing? In my opinion, it's the level of product that we give the public. More than a few years ago, I was judging a contest, and this chorus came out and I think the average score was around a 38. It was a dreadful performance. When the performance was over and the scores were turned in, the judge sitting next to me turned to me and asked "Do you think they're doing anybody any good when they sing in public?" Like anything else, the public wants quality. There are too many groups (choruses and quartets) that sing at a relatively poor level, so much so that when they sing in public, most do not want to hear them. I'm not talking about International Championship calibur. I'm talking about good performances. Too many hide behind "We're a Fun Chorus!!" and similar attitudes, and simply don't care about whether or not they are offering a quality product to the public. How can you profess that, once someone experiences the joy of ringing some chords they will be hooked, when many can't do that despite the advantage of having "rehearsed" their songs? A couple of e-mails here talk about joining a "fun chapter." I would question why a chapter that does not have International aspirations should automatically be considered a "fun chapter." On the other hand, I agree a million percent that many no longer care about competition. I'm one of them. Due to recent rule changes and the acceptance of many songs that shouldn't be accepted in contest, many barbershop friends and acquaintences of mine do not attend Internationals any more and will only attend Division and District competitions if they are participating in them. Perhaps the next time rule changes and other new regulations are voted upon, those that do the voting might take the time to be sure it's what the general membership really wants, and that it doesn't benefit only one specific subgroup of the Society. I'm a lifer. I've been a member since 1971. I've competed at International with three different chapters. I'm not going anywhere. But, I really don't have much interest anymore in who wins contests unless they are friends of mine. I attend my chapter meetings (Yes, I compete with my chapter.). I sing in quartets (I'm between quartets at the moment - we're looking for a tenor and a bass). I do a few other things at the local level. That's enough for me at the moment. One last thought - one of the e-mails in this post mentioned that there are chapters with the bare minimum of members - eight or so. Part distribution notwithstanding, is there any reason why they can't sing well? Fire away, Netters!!!! It's been a while. Thanks for reading!! Canto ergo sum Marty IsraelLong live the 7th
            > To: bbshop@yahoogroups.com
            > From: lovejoymar@...
            > Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 22:13:27 -0500
            > Subject: Re: [Spam] Re: [bbshop] Re: Society and declining membership. Hello?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > OH, but it WOULD work, because the "fun" guys would be recruiting for
            >
            > their own "fun" chapter. It's been said here how small a percentage of
            >
            > the organization participates in international competition... that means
            >
            > there a a potload of chapters that are NOT emphasizing competition and,
            >
            > as you say, are socializers - let's have them get out there and
            >
            > socialize the heck out of the other men in their communities and grow
            >
            > the "fun" part of this Society!
            >
            >
            >
            > If both types of members would quit trying to change each other and just
            >
            > do what they like and share it with men they think will enjoy it, too,
            >
            > the Society would be growing by leaps and bounds.
            >
            >
            >
            > BHS doesn't need to throw out leaders - it needs to have members who
            >
            > take responsibility for their own little corner of the BHS world and
            >
            > make a big success THERE (and leave the other guys who like it a
            >
            > different way alone). BTW, the competing chapters are having so much
            >
            > fun doing it "their" way, they often attract singers without even trying
            >
            > too hard!
            >
            >
            >
            > Marti
            >
            >
            >
            > On 3/29/2013 6:32 PM, Stephen Rafe wrote:
            >
            > > If only that would work.
            >
            > > Competitors are high achievers; "Fun singers" (for lack of a better
            >
            > > term) are socializers. They rarely blend well in the same
            >
            > > organization. In the long run, one will win out. Usually this happens
            >
            > > through attrition with the high achievers moving to other choruses and
            >
            > > the socializers (technically called "affiliators") hanging on.
            >
            > > Sometimes though, the achievers will stay and control who sings by
            >
            > > imposing auditions and qualifications for singing. It all depends upon
            >
            > > the leadership (the third drive which also involves the "control"
            >
            > > factor).
            >
            > > Naturally, a chorus of achievers can and does socialize but not to the
            >
            > > extent that socializer choruses do. And choruses that are largely made
            >
            > > up of affiliators can and practice come element of achievement (e.g.,
            >
            > > trying to sing better). For sure, though, it's rare indeed for one
            >
            > > chapter to accommodate both types and be successful. The achievers
            >
            > > won't want to "waste time with all that other stuff" (a direct quote)
            >
            > > and the affiliators won't want to "spend months of entire meetings on
            >
            > > getting ready for competition" (another direct quote).
            >
            > > Stephen
            >
            > > STEPHEN RAFE
            >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            >
            > >
            >
            > > *From:* lovejoymar@... <mailto:lovejoymar@...>
            >
            > > *To:* bbshop@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbshop@yahoogroups.com>
            >
            > > *Sent:* Friday, March 29, 2013 7:10 PM
            >
            > > *Subject:* [Spam] Re: [bbshop] Re: Society and declining
            >
            > > membership. Hello?
            >
            > >
            >
            > > If all the people who think there is too much emphasis on
            >
            > > competition got out there and each invited one or two or three men
            >
            > > to join, they would have lots of new friends to do barbershop
            >
            > > "their way."
            >
            > >
            >
            > > And the contest-happy people could continue to enjoy the hobby
            >
            > > "their way," too.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > And all could be part of the same organization!
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Marti Lovejoy
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • bandit7577
            Hi Everyone again, I really enjoy reading this thread and seeing everyone lament the demise of the Society, the lack of leadership, the difference between
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 30, 2013
              Hi Everyone again,
              I really enjoy reading this thread and seeing everyone lament the demise of the Society, the lack of leadership, the difference between chapters, and the overall demise of music as a way of life.
              After reading all of this I am surprised that the BHS even exists anymore. The formula that is described is one of apathy.
              How do we stop the apathy? Leadership, proven productive leadership.
              We have never lived in a world where it is so easy to get information and yet we are less and less aware of what is going on around us. The Barbershop Harmony Society has new leadership. Marty Monson is a dynamic and energetic CEO with a genuine and real vision that is really different from all of the past Executive Directors, If you watch the latest Harmonizer TV you can see and feel the difference.
              I see the future of our hobby, not as a group of men who get together once a week to sing a few songs and enjoy each others company, but as a committed group of men who love to sing and serve the local community through that love of music!
              This takes a shift in focus. It isn't all about singing any more, or even about singing well. Our chapters are based in communities and depend on the local community to provide a steady stream of new members to replace the old members that go on to other things. What I hear Marty saying is this (and I paraphrase) Get out in your local community and let people know you are there, find a need and fill it with song.
              When men work together for a common good in the local community you will have a "fun" chapter.

              The SPEBSQSA dba BHS may be shrinking, but it isn't dead yet. There is still a network of over 20,000 members and a rich history to tap. Our organization is very late coming into the modern agebut we can get there.

              Doug Johnson
              Robbinsdale, Minnesota

              P.S. On a side note, I think it's time to change the name again, what do you think of the even more generic "Barbershop.org"?
            • Bruce
              I our Society, leadership must come from the BOTTOM UP! You must remember that there is not ONE chapter out there that NEEDS the Society in order to exist. 8
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 30, 2013
                I our Society, leadership must come from the BOTTOM UP!

                You must remember that there is not ONE chapter out there that NEEDS the
                Society in order to exist. 8 guys... or 80 guys... can still get
                together and make music and have fun without some governing body
                watching over them!

                Sure, certain things might be better when they are shared with your
                brothers from across the area ( state, district, country... insert
                whatever level you prefer!), but it shouldn't limit your enjoyment of
                performing for your home-grown audiences at the best level you can offer!

                Bruce Checca
                "..been there, done that....but definitely prefer the higher levels..."


                On 3/30/2013 8:41 AM, bandit7577@... wrote:
                >
                > Hi Everyone again,
                > I really enjoy reading this thread and seeing everyone lament the
                > demise of the Society, the lack of leadership, the difference between
                > chapters, and the overall demise of music as a way of life.
                > After reading all of this I am surprised that the BHS even exists
                > anymore. The formula that is described is one of apathy.
                > How do we stop the apathy? Leadership, proven productive leadership.
                > We have never lived in a world where it is so easy to get information
                > and yet we are less and less aware of what is going on around us. The
                > Barbershop Harmony Society has new leadership. Marty Monson is a
                > dynamic and energetic CEO with a genuine and real vision that is
                > really different from all of the past Executive Directors, If you
                > watch the latest Harmonizer TV you can see and feel the difference.
                > I see the future of our hobby, not as a group of men who get together
                > once a week to sing a few songs and enjoy each others company, but as
                > a committed group of men who love to sing and serve the local
                > community through that love of music!
                > This takes a shift in focus. It isn't all about singing any more, or
                > even about singing well. Our chapters are based in communities and
                > depend on the local community to provide a steady stream of new
                > members to replace the old members that go on to other things. What I
                > hear Marty saying is this (and I paraphrase) Get out in your local
                > community and let people know you are there, find a need and fill it
                > with song.
                > When men work together for a common good in the local community you
                > will have a "fun" chapter.
                >
                > The SPEBSQSA dba BHS may be shrinking, but it isn't dead yet. There is
                > still a network of over 20,000 members and a rich history to tap. Our
                > organization is very late coming into the modern agebut we can get there.
                >
                > Doug Johnson
                > Robbinsdale, Minnesota
                >
                > P.S. On a side note, I think it's time to change the name again, what
                > do you think of the even more generic "Barbershop.org"?
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Stephen Rafe
                Hi Marti -- I agree... mostly. 1 -- The concept for chapter meetings advocated by Chuck Greene and Eric Jackson still works, where it s used. 2 -- The
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 30, 2013
                  Hi Marti --

                  I agree... mostly.

                  1 -- The concept for chapter meetings advocated by Chuck Greene and Eric Jackson still works, where it's used.

                  2 -- The questions then become:

                  a) Why don't socializers start their own chapters and choruses? Possibly because they, being socializers (affiliation drive), don't want to work that hard at developing a chapter or chorus ( achievement drive) or run an organization (leadership drive).
                  b) Why don't achievers start their own chapters and choruses? Possibly because they, being achievers (achievement drive) don't want to spend their time on administering a chapter (leadership drive).

                  Needed? Place a higher value on administrative leadership across the entire organization from top to bottom. Give it the recognition it deserves because without it we don't have chapters or choruses. Teach members how to become good leaders, give them tools that work (such as the Jaycees' "portfolio" concept that simplifies each and every job, show them how to use these tools, and reward the heck out of them for good leadership (not for just showing up and staying out of the way).

                  3 -- All of this takes top-down leadership, and the people we've had in those posts for the past two decades I've been a member have failed to address or solve the problem(s).

                  4 -- We don't need to throw out leaders -- we need to throw out the non-leaders, make room for new blood, and train up the ones with potential.

                  Stephen
                  STEPHEN RAFE

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Marti Lovejoy
                  To: Harmonet
                  Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 11:13 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Spam] Re: [bbshop] Re: Society and declining membership. Hello?



                  OH, but it WOULD work, because the "fun" guys would be recruiting for
                  their own "fun" chapter. It's been said here how small a percentage of
                  the organization participates in international competition... that means
                  there a a potload of chapters that are NOT emphasizing competition and,
                  as you say, are socializers - let's have them get out there and
                  socialize the heck out of the other men in their communities and grow
                  the "fun" part of this Society!

                  If both types of members would quit trying to change each other and just
                  do what they like and share it with men they think will enjoy it, too,
                  the Society would be growing by leaps and bounds.

                  BHS doesn't need to throw out leaders - it needs to have members who
                  take responsibility for their own little corner of the BHS world and
                  make a big success THERE (and leave the other guys who like it a
                  different way alone). BTW, the competing chapters are having so much
                  fun doing it "their" way, they often attract singers without even trying
                  too hard!

                  Marti



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mark Schuldenfrei
                  Stephen, you confuse me. You first said, amongst many other things: My goal is simply to focus on the realities of the BHS -- we are going under [...] Marti
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 30, 2013
                    Stephen, you confuse me.

                    You first said, amongst many other things: "My goal is simply to
                    focus on the realities of the BHS -- we are going under [...]"

                    Marti helpfully suggested: "If all the people who think there
                    is too much emphasis on competition got out there and each
                    invited one or two or three men to join, they would have lots
                    of new friends to do barbershop "their way."

                    And you replied: "If only that would work."

                    Well, if having more friends come and sing barbershop, and
                    join chapters and perhaps invite more friends won't work:
                    what would?

                    I see an awful lot of wailing and moaning on this list about
                    the high end problems, and the failures of others. But I
                    suspect that the solution is as simple, and as grassroots
                    as Marti makes it to be.

                    Stephen, tell us: what makes your chapter successful and
                    has helped it grow? How many members has it gained in the
                    last few years? How has your prescription for success
                    borne fruit?

                    If we could all have successful chapters, BHS could easily
                    take care of itself. Stephen: how did you do it?

                    Mark Schuldenfrei
                  • Mark Schuldenfrei
                    ... This begs for a musical reference, doesn t it? So, we re casting the Mikado, and Stephen seems to be trying out for the Lord High Executioner. And he s got
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 30, 2013
                      On 3/30/2013 12:47 PM, Stephen Rafe wrote:
                      > 4 -- We don't need to throw out leaders -- we need to throw out the
                      > non-leaders, make room for new blood, and train up the ones with
                      > potential.

                      This begs for a musical reference, doesn't it?

                      So, we're casting the Mikado, and Stephen seems to be trying out
                      for the Lord High Executioner.

                      And he's got a little list....

                      Mark "They'd none of them be missed" Schuldenfrei
                    • Stephen Rafe
                      Happy Easter Mark. ... From: Mark Schuldenfrei To: Stephen Rafe Cc: Marti Lovejoy ;
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 31, 2013
                        Happy Easter Mark.


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Mark Schuldenfrei" <mark@...>
                        To: "Stephen Rafe" <rapport1@...>
                        Cc: "Marti Lovejoy" <lovejoymar@...>; "Harmonet"
                        <bbshop@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 9:22 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Spam] Re: [bbshop] Re: Society and declining membership.
                        Hello?


                        > On 3/30/2013 12:47 PM, Stephen Rafe wrote:
                        >> 4 -- We don't need to throw out leaders -- we need to throw out the
                        >> non-leaders, make room for new blood, and train up the ones with
                        >> potential.
                        >
                        > This begs for a musical reference, doesn't it?
                        >
                        > So, we're casting the Mikado, and Stephen seems to be trying out
                        > for the Lord High Executioner.
                        >
                        > And he's got a little list....
                        >
                        > Mark "They'd none of them be missed" Schuldenfrei
                      • Stephen Rafe
                        Maark -- Thank you for showing us your sarcasm. You are SOOO clever that I surrender. Stephen STEPHEN RAFE ... From: Mark Schuldenfrei To:
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 31, 2013
                          Maark --

                          Thank you for showing us your sarcasm.
                          You are SOOO clever that I surrender.

                          Stephen
                          STEPHEN RAFE
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Mark Schuldenfrei" <mark@...>
                          To: "Stephen Rafe" <rapport1@...>
                          Cc: "Marti Lovejoy" <lovejoymar@...>; "Harmonet"
                          <bbshop@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 9:22 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Spam] Re: [bbshop] Re: Society and declining membership.
                          Hello?


                          > On 3/30/2013 12:47 PM, Stephen Rafe wrote:
                          >> 4 -- We don't need to throw out leaders -- we need to throw out the
                          >> non-leaders, make room for new blood, and train up the ones with
                          >> potential.
                          >
                          > This begs for a musical reference, doesn't it?
                          >
                          > So, we're casting the Mikado, and Stephen seems to be trying out
                          > for the Lord High Executioner.
                          >
                          > And he's got a little list....
                          >
                          > Mark "They'd none of them be missed" Schuldenfrei
                        • Stephen Rafe
                          Mark -- I am surprised that you find yourself confused. however, I ll l provide the following information to the group as a courtesy to the members who attack
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 31, 2013
                            Mark --

                            I am surprised that you find yourself confused. however, I'll l provide the
                            following information to the group as a courtesy to the members who attack
                            problems, not people.

                            Point One -- I wrote that with empathy. The truth is we have not ever known
                            all the people she mentioned to invite two or three men to join. Most
                            chapters know that even our "Guest Nights" are not that productive. Even so,
                            "inviting" is not enrolling new members. Many chapters fall short when they
                            get new men in the door. Retention is another issue to which my comment
                            responds. Most of us could do a whole lot better at that. The finest
                            recruitment campaigns we have received from men like Ev Nau have eventually
                            faded away. Further, if the tools for retention are available, why aren't we
                            all using them? I have asked several chapters this question about their own
                            organizations. The typical answer? "Not enough time." We have a right to
                            expected our elected and appointed leaders -- and their respective
                            committees -- to come up with solutions, guide our chapters in implementing
                            them, and then following through with them to ensure success. My only point
                            from the start of this entire thread has been this: If our leaders aren't
                            making a difference, replace them.

                            Point Two -- I have been a member of four chapters over 20 years. In the
                            first one I was BOTY and sang with a registered quartet. I started the
                            second chapter because the first one's chorus director -- a great guy! --
                            had goals and expectations that differed from mine. For the most part, we
                            used my methods in that new chapter and won numerous administrative and
                            music awards. Starting that chapter was strongly resisted by neighboring
                            chapters (although we created ours in a community of over 100,000 residents
                            that had never been recruited and we brought in over a dozen men new to
                            barbershopping that had never heard of the hobby before -- and they stayed!)
                            That chapter failed after I was in a serious car accident and needed,
                            ultimately, seven surgeries and I still suffer with neck pain from a
                            hairline fracture that didn't heal). The founding of that chapter was also
                            strongly discouraged by District leaders (one of whom is probably a member
                            of this group). That chapter then folded under the leadership of the then
                            president (who was a District chapter counselor last year). After the death
                            of my youngest son, I lost my marriage and my home, and moved to an area
                            that didn't have a chapter close enough for me to join. Some years later, I
                            joined a then-new chapter and helped with the administrative start-up. They
                            did quite well as a chapter and a chorus. I moved again and joined a chapter
                            that was failing I offered my help but far too much was going on behind the
                            scenes for meaningful change to happen. They are still struggling and I am
                            no longer a chorus member but remain active in a registered quartet.

                            Point Three -- Asking how well my methods work in saving chapters begs the
                            response: The chapters that could benefit most have to want to change and
                            they have to be willing to devote full effort to bringing that about. The
                            methods worked fantastically well in the chapter I founded -- despite huge
                            opposition and criticism. The one where I assisted somewhat were already
                            benefiting. I didn't try to change my first chapter and my most-current one
                            is locked into doing things their own way.Each has a handful of somewhat
                            active members.

                            Over the past year or so, I have provided members of this group and the
                            directors' group with numerous articles and papers they have requested. Each
                            publication was (is) a single-subject piece that provides specific, how-to
                            guidance on the subject that concerned them. At last count, I have sent out
                            over 500 copies of documents to well over 100 chapters. I literally put my
                            money where my mouth is -- because I give away information here that clients
                            and customers pay for. Yet, despite my requests for feedback from each
                            recipient on how they used the material, and my further follow-up efforts
                            with many of them, only a small handful have done more than praise the
                            material and say they are using it. Some others have responded that they
                            haven't had enough time, they no longer hold that board post, or that they
                            passed the information along to others.

                            Therein lies another topic: Why are so many chapters deficient in
                            follow-through? And that takes us back to the need for leadership oversight.

                            Stephen
                            STEPHEN RAFE
                            .
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Mark Schuldenfrei
                            To: Stephen Rafe
                            Cc: lovejoymar@... ; bbshop@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 9:01 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Spam] Re: [bbshop] Re: Society and declining membership.
                            Hello?



                            Stephen, you confuse me.

                            You first said, amongst many other things: "My goal is simply to
                            focus on the realities of the BHS -- we are going under [...]"

                            Marti helpfully suggested: "If all the people who think there
                            is too much emphasis on competition got out there and each
                            invited one or two or three men to join, they would have lots
                            of new friends to do barbershop "their way."

                            And you replied: "If only that would work."

                            Well, if having more friends come and sing barbershop, and
                            join chapters and perhaps invite more friends won't work:
                            what would?

                            I see an awful lot of wailing and moaning on this list about
                            the high end problems, and the failures of others. But I
                            suspect that the solution is as simple, and as grassroots
                            as Marti makes it to be.

                            Stephen, tell us: what makes your chapter successful and
                            has helped it grow? How many members has it gained in the
                            last few years? How has your prescription for success
                            borne fruit?

                            If we could all have successful chapters, BHS could easily
                            take care of itself. Stephen: how did you do it?

                            Mark Schuldenfrei
                          • Mark Schuldenfrei
                            ... And a zissen pesach to you, Herr Rafe. :-) Maybe, in your season of renewal and rebirth, we can focus on more positive messages about the future of
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 31, 2013
                              On 3/31/2013 8:54 AM, Stephen Rafe wrote:
                              > Happy Easter Mark.

                              And a zissen pesach to you, Herr Rafe. :-)

                              Maybe, in your season of renewal and rebirth, we can focus on
                              more positive messages about the future of barbershop, and
                              offer each other constructive advice.

                              Mark Schuldenfrei
                            • Mark Schuldenfrei
                              ... I think you miss my point, rather thoroughly. You have your list of hanger s on that you want removed, you seem thoroughly bothered by the leadership of
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 31, 2013
                                On 3/31/2013 9:09 AM, Stephen Rafe wrote:
                                > Thank you for showing us your sarcasm.
                                > You are SOOO clever that I surrender.

                                I think you miss my point, rather thoroughly.

                                You have your list of hanger's on that you want removed,
                                you seem thoroughly bothered by the leadership of barbershop
                                and want them replaced... you seem to offer a stream of
                                negativity and unpleasant comparisons.

                                But: you have also studied these matters a great deal.

                                I'd like to see you offer your advice in a more practical
                                manner, and in two ways.

                                1. I presume you have applied it locally, in your chapter
                                and in your district. I think we'd benefit from
                                knowing more about your successes.

                                2. I haven't studied the topic nearly as much as you, but we
                                both know that the best way to modify the behaviors of
                                others is through positive reinforcement. I think we'd
                                benefit if you offered your experience by using your
                                own expertise to improve your message delivery.

                                As I've said, I've read a lot of your material, and it
                                is fascinating. So I'd like learn more about how
                                it is applied in your chapter, and by watching you apply
                                it here on this list.

                                This is an attempt at constructive engagement. Although I
                                don't have your academic background in the matter, I'm trying
                                to do my best, with humor and with conversation.

                                Mark Schuldenfrei
                              • Mark Schuldenfrei
                                ... This is a bit of a rambling paragraph, Stephen. And it s full of negativity: you say people don t invite, they don t retain new members, even the good
                                Message 15 of 15 , Mar 31, 2013
                                  On 3/31/2013 9:59 AM, Stephen Rafe wrote:
                                  > Point One -- I wrote that with empathy. The truth is we have not ever known
                                  > all the people she mentioned to invite two or three men to join. Most
                                  > chapters know that even our "Guest Nights" are not that productive. Even so,
                                  > "inviting" is not enrolling new members. Many chapters fall short when they
                                  > get new men in the door. Retention is another issue to which my comment
                                  > responds. Most of us could do a whole lot better at that. The finest
                                  > recruitment campaigns we have received from men like Ev Nau have eventually
                                  > faded away. Further, if the tools for retention are available, why aren't we
                                  > all using them? I have asked several chapters this question about their own
                                  > organizations. The typical answer? "Not enough time." We have a right to
                                  > expected our elected and appointed leaders -- and their respective
                                  > committees -- to come up with solutions, guide our chapters in implementing
                                  > them, and then following through with them to ensure success. My only point
                                  > from the start of this entire thread has been this: If our leaders aren't
                                  > making a difference, replace them.

                                  This is a bit of a rambling paragraph, Stephen. And it's full
                                  of negativity: you say people don't invite, they don't retain
                                  new members, even the good programs fall away, get rid of leaders....

                                  I think what we lack are positive answers. I thought Marti made
                                  a very good point - the basics of recruitment, retention and growth
                                  are people who come and sing. Get more of them, and you're on
                                  your way. It can't be bad.

                                  But you replied: "If only that would work." Empathetic or not,
                                  it is not constructive. The first step that Joe/Jane Barbershopper
                                  can take is to say to people they meet "you might have fun if
                                  you sang with us". You can't have growth, without growth. You
                                  can't have more people, without more people. Let's have more
                                  people.

                                  And you keep saying to get rid of people, especially people who
                                  have volunteered their time and effort. There is a certain
                                  sense of "off with their heads" that I am getting, which I do
                                  not understand.

                                  In other organizations I've been in (I may have said this before),
                                  a friend of mine introduced me to the concept of "the goob". The
                                  goob is a good guy (or gal, in that organization). Means well,
                                  wants to help, and to fit in.

                                  My friend used the phrase "Cherish The Goob", a lot. He meant
                                  that with a good and willing person, who wants to help and fit
                                  in, you can do a LOT. And, from the ranks of the goob, comes
                                  the generation of goobs after that, and from the ranks of the
                                  goob comes the leaders of tomorrow.

                                  He was a good old boy from Arkansas, and he didn't speak all
                                  flowery and smart. (Although, boy: was he SMART!) He said
                                  "Cherish The Goob".

                                  That's the secret, I'll tell you that for free. He and his
                                  friends from Arkansas, in a little town far from everything,
                                  turned that local group into a POWERHOUSE of activity. Because
                                  they all were goobs, doing the best they could, and encouraging
                                  each other.

                                  Stephen, you say a lot of "that won't work" and "he's no good"
                                  and "fire the lousy leaders" and "get rid of hangers on".

                                  But what have you got for "cherishing goobs"? What positives
                                  can you give to groups, or leaders, or individuals that make
                                  attending chapter meetings and singing more successful?

                                  I asked you what worked, because I think we all would benefit
                                  from knowing what worked.

                                  And: I don't think we benefit a lot from offering an idea and
                                  being slapped down with "If only that would work".



                                  > Therein lies another topic: Why are so many chapters deficient in
                                  > follow-through? And that takes us back to the need for leadership oversight.

                                  I suspect (although I cannot be sure) that what we have in barbershop
                                  are men and women with lives and careers, who can only offer a
                                  limited amount of effort and time.

                                  They, too, are goobs, and do the best they can. They have simply
                                  volunteered to do more than the average goob.

                                  In my eyes, there is NOTHING more precious and worthy of praise
                                  and help than a volunteer. As the parable of the stone points out,
                                  many say "should" and not enough say "will". Going back to the
                                  stone, though, volunteer organizations benefit from a stone-soup
                                  mentality.

                                  We can't "fire the leaders" and "fire the hanger-son" ad nauseum,
                                  thinking that by doing so we're going to continue to keep them
                                  as singers and volunteers, and thinking that we're going to get
                                  more and better leaders in their place. Usually you have to
                                  work with what you have.

                                  Again: volunteers are precious and worthy of praise. Sure, they
                                  may not be perfection (probably aren't), but one can build a very
                                  high functioning organization out of volunteers. The trick is to
                                  encourage them or entice them into doing more, or doing better.

                                  Negative messages are not as effective in behavior modification
                                  as positive ones.

                                  And today's mediocre volunteer can be aided and trained into
                                  being tomorrow's fantastic volunteer.

                                  I'm not a foolish pollyanna, and I'm aware that there can be
                                  times and places where organizations (in the small/local or
                                  large/national) can get stuck and require some forcefulness
                                  to make a change.

                                  I think that's rare. I think that it's difficult. I think
                                  that force is most effective when someone who is genuinely
                                  and frequently positive and a role-model for development says
                                  "I'm frustrated". When someone who always is negative says
                                  "this time I'm really negative", it's a yawn.

                                  Stephen, you obviously care. You obviously send around lots
                                  of papers and pamphlets (what was it, 500 plus?) That's good.
                                  But you say it isn't working.

                                  I think what would work is a more positive, more helpful and
                                  a more responsive method, rather than broadsides and negativity
                                  and "Off With Their Heads" or "I Have A Little List".

                                  Please offer a little more honey, and a little less vinegar.
                                  Tell us what worked. Make it palatable and attractive and
                                  something people would actually do.

                                  Mark Schuldenfrei
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