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Bayfield 32

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  • svsearose
    Hello, I am new to this group because I would like to learn more about the sailing characteristics of the Bayfield 32. I currently own a Pearson 28 which is a
    Message 1 of 26 , Sep 2, 2003
      Hello,
      I am new to this group because I would like to learn more about the
      sailing characteristics of the Bayfield 32. I currently own a
      Pearson 28 which is a fin keel. She turns on a dime and my husband
      has concerns that a boat such as the Bayfield 32 might not respond
      as quickly. Obviously the full keel plays a huge role in that.
      I invite any comments from owners of the 32 or those familiar with
      the 32 so that i can learn more about her.

      Thanks so much,

      Joan
    • Gilles Rancourt
      Joan, your husband is right as are most captains, but please explain to him that you will be very , very comfortable cruising with him around the world or
      Message 2 of 26 , Sep 2, 2003
        Joan,

        your husband is right as are most captains, but please explain to him that you will be very , very comfortable cruising with him around the world or anywhere else he would like to cruise on a Bayfield 32C

        gilles
        s/y Dolly Grey
        '86 B32C #214
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: svsearose
        To: bayfieldyachts@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 9:14 PM
        Subject: [BYOR] Bayfield 32


        Hello,
        I am new to this group because I would like to learn more about the
        sailing characteristics of the Bayfield 32. I currently own a
        Pearson 28 which is a fin keel. She turns on a dime and my husband
        has concerns that a boat such as the Bayfield 32 might not respond
        as quickly. Obviously the full keel plays a huge role in that.
        I invite any comments from owners of the 32 or those familiar with
        the 32 so that i can learn more about her.

        Thanks so much,

        Joan


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      • Ken Montgomery
        ... Hi I have had a 32 for 16 years now and although it was never intended a round the buoys racer it does handle quite well. I feel the benifets of a full
        Message 3 of 26 , Sep 3, 2003
          >From: "svsearose" <svsearose@...>
          >Reply-To: bayfieldyachts@yahoogroups.com
          >To: bayfieldyachts@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [BYOR] Bayfield 32
          >Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 01:14:50 -0000
          >
          >Hello,
          >I am new to this group because I would like to learn more about the
          >sailing characteristics of the Bayfield 32. I currently own a
          >Pearson 28 which is a fin keel. She turns on a dime and my husband
          >has concerns that a boat such as the Bayfield 32 might not respond
          >as quickly. Obviously the full keel plays a huge role in that.
          >I invite any comments from owners of the 32 or those familiar with
          >the 32 so that i can learn more about her.
          >
          >Thanks so much,
          >
          >Joan
          >
          Hi
          I have had a 32 for 16 years now and although it was never intended a "round
          the buoys" racer it does handle quite well. I feel the benifets of a full
          keel vastly outweigh any handling concerns. Given a decent wind I can stay
          with most people and have a much better ride. An as a cruiser that spends a
          lot of time in little hide aways in the rock strewn back waters of Georgian
          Bay you can't beat 3'9" of full keel.

          Ken

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        • John & Christine Jamieson
          Joan You will find that the B32 will not turn quite as quickly as a fin keel but they track better (ie. hold their course better once they get going). They
          Message 4 of 26 , Sep 3, 2003
            Joan

            You will find that the B32 will not turn quite as quickly as a fin keel but they track better (ie. hold their course better once they get going). They also are more difficult to back under power but that can be overcome with practice. They are good solid cruising boats with a good turn of speed offwind when the wind pipes up (had mine over 8 knots last week in 25 knots of wind).

            John
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: svsearose
            To: bayfieldyachts@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 9:14 PM
            Subject: [BYOR] Bayfield 32


            Hello,
            I am new to this group because I would like to learn more about the
            sailing characteristics of the Bayfield 32. I currently own a
            Pearson 28 which is a fin keel. She turns on a dime and my husband
            has concerns that a boat such as the Bayfield 32 might not respond
            as quickly. Obviously the full keel plays a huge role in that.
            I invite any comments from owners of the 32 or those familiar with
            the 32 so that i can learn more about her.

            Thanks so much,

            Joan


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          • sailtahiti@aol.com
            Bayfield owners have bigger dimes. :-) Ed Heckman B29 Betsey
            Message 5 of 26 , Sep 3, 2003
              Bayfield owners have bigger dimes. :-)

              Ed Heckman
              B29 "Betsey"
            • svsearose
              Yeah, that s what I figured ... Thanks for the input. Does anyone know about a 32 named E Elizabeth in Harpswell,Me? Joan
              Message 6 of 26 , Sep 4, 2003
                Yeah, that's what I figured
                :-)
                Thanks for the input. Does anyone know about a 32 named "E
                Elizabeth" in Harpswell,Me?

                Joan




                --- In bayfieldyachts@yahoogroups.com, sailtahiti@a... wrote:
                > Bayfield owners have bigger dimes. :-)
                >
                > Ed Heckman
                > B29 "Betsey"
              • The Nielsens
                ... From: svsearose [mailto:svsearose@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 9:15 PM To: bayfieldyachts@yahoogroups.com Subject: [BYOR] Bayfield 32
                Message 7 of 26 , Sep 4, 2003
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: svsearose [mailto:svsearose@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 9:15 PM
                  To: bayfieldyachts@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [BYOR] Bayfield 32


                  Hello,
                  I am new to this group because I would like to learn more about the
                  sailing characteristics of the Bayfield 32. I currently own a
                  Pearson 28 which is a fin keel. She turns on a dime and my husband
                  has concerns that a boat such as the Bayfield 32 might not respond
                  as quickly. Obviously the full keel plays a huge role in that.
                  I invite any comments from owners of the 32 or those familiar with
                  the 32 so that i can learn more about her.

                  Thanks so much,

                  Joan



                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  <bayfieldyachts-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
                  Visit the BYOR website: <http://www.geocities.com/bayfieldyachts>
                  Site Sponsor: Haliburton Enterprises <http://www.HalEnt.ca>


                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                  Joan
                  I have a B32 after having a c&c fin keel . I much prefer the full keel
                  despite some slight difficulty in manoeuvering. The stability in heavy
                  weather is a huge plus, I have never had the rail under water despite the
                  fact that I should have shortened sail.
                  One frature about this boat is that I found that the bow responded more
                  than I liked when docking in a wind, this feature I reduced by having a bow
                  thruster installed so that when I dock I only have to worry about securing
                  the sternline the thruster keeps the bow to shore.
                  If you should want details of the bowthruster let me know.
                  John Nielsen
                • The Nielsens
                  ... From: svsearose [mailto:svsearose@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 9:15 PM To: bayfieldyachts@yahoogroups.com Subject: [BYOR] Bayfield 32
                  Message 8 of 26 , Sep 4, 2003
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: svsearose [mailto:svsearose@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 9:15 PM
                    To: bayfieldyachts@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [BYOR] Bayfield 32


                    Hello,
                    I am new to this group because I would like to learn more about the
                    sailing characteristics of the Bayfield 32. I currently own a
                    Pearson 28 which is a fin keel. She turns on a dime and my husband
                    has concerns that a boat such as the Bayfield 32 might not respond
                    as quickly. Obviously the full keel plays a huge role in that.
                    I invite any comments from owners of the 32 or those familiar with
                    the 32 so that i can learn more about her.

                    Thanks so much,

                    Joan



                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    <bayfieldyachts-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
                    Visit the BYOR website: <http://www.geocities.com/bayfieldyachts>
                    Site Sponsor: Haliburton Enterprises <http://www.HalEnt.ca>


                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • b29ig@att.net
                    A lower tech (and cost) process for keeping the boat againt the dock is to use a spring line instead of the bow or stern lines as the first line to the dock.
                    Message 9 of 26 , Sep 4, 2003
                      A lower tech (and cost) process for keeping the boat againt the dock is to
                      use a spring line instead of the bow or stern lines as the first line to the
                      dock. I single hand often (with a B29), and find that I can coast in to a
                      slip- drop a spring line over the cleat at the end of the dock and cinch it
                      up as the boat gets into the slip.

                      When this line tightens, the boat automatically pulls against the dock. Once
                      secure, keep the motor driving forward and the boat sits against the dock
                      until you have secured the bow and stern lines.

                      Typically you would attach the spring line to the boat at about mid-ships.
                      That is a great place for a heavy cleat as you can run fore and aft spring
                      lines from that point. I use a cleat on my staysail track without problems,
                      but I would recommend a solid cleat if available.

                      Obvioulsy not exclusive to Bayfields-- before bow thrusters came to be, this
                      was how it was done on everything.

                      Nick
                      B29 #108.
                    • Des Cameron
                      Hi Joan, I have a Bayfield 29 also the full keel cutter rig as is the B32. I thoroughly enjoy sailing her and you soon get used to her characteristics. Its
                      Message 10 of 26 , Sep 4, 2003
                        Hi Joan,
                        I have a Bayfield 29 also the full keel cutter rig as is the B32. I thoroughly enjoy sailing her and you soon get used to her characteristics. Its just a case of practice - practice and more practice until you become familiar with her. The cutter rig is a joy to sail and with the wind turned up a notch or two is exhilarating. The following should help you.
                        Cheers Des.
                        B29 Soup and Desert.


                        9.5 Maneuvering the Single-Screw Trawler: The Art of "Goosing" to Make 360 Turns
                        Back in November, 1997 a lively thread popped up on the Internet Trawler-World mailing list, TWL, on Single vs. Twin engines. This perennial subject quickly evolved into a discussion of how to maneuver a single engine boat -- an art that must be learned by a Krogen captain to be able to look "cool" and avoid serious damage to one's boat and pride (not to mention others' boats). I tried to describe in text form some tips on how to do this, and judging from the responses from others on the list, it seemed helpful. Although this sort of stuff is "old-hat" to the long-time, single-screw skippers, I thought some of the new folks in our club might find it useful It all started with the following two quotes. (In Internet email quotes from some else's messages are usually denoted my the ">" marks at the left margin.)
                        >"October would occasionally simply decide she wouldn't turn to port. We
                        >got tired of doing 270 turns."
                        and
                        >Exactly. My present single engine boat has a keel and a lovely great
                        >rudder but with any wind blowing ( a Mistral can go on for a week) you
                        >can forget about backing her anywhere but left about. The 270 degree
                        >turn is often the only option I've had in a medium wind - and it's
                        >great luck if I've got room for one in a Mediterranean harbour - or on
                        >our narrow canals.
                        At the risk of stating what may be obvious to some of the folks on this list, I'm going to toss my $0.02 into this part of the thread...
                        First of all, I've had this identical discussion with some of the single-screw owners in our marina and the ones who've been bold enough to try these techniques have told me the experience has been very helpful.
                        The first "secret" to tight-quarter maneuvering the single-screw boat is to learn how to "back and fill" to "rotate" the boat, not "drive" her around. Using this technique, you can do 360-degree turns in EITHER direction in less than two lengths of your boat -- and, if you get good at it, it'll be 1.5 lengths or so. This technique consists of stopping completely and putting the helm all the way over and leaving it there throughout the turn. Then shift into forward and give the engine a quick "goose." You really have to hit it hard, so the first time you practice this, try it out in the harbor where you're close enough to objects to see the effect of what you're doing, but not so close you're likely to get into trouble. As soon as you've "goosed her" forward, throttle back, then immediately shift into reverse and "goose her" again -- hard enough to kill all forward motion. You will see that the forward goose has rotated the boat perhaps 30 or 40 degrees and the reverse goose has
                        killed her way again so she's barely moved forward. Repeat the process over and over until you've rotated the boat the desired amount.
                        Of course, because of stern walk in reverse, you'll find this works better in one direction than the other. For example, our boat backs to starboard, so rotating the boat to port is MUCH easier because BOTH parts of the maneuver (forward AND reverse) assist the turn, whereas when you turn her to starboard the reverse goose tends to slow the turn. However, it CAN be done in both directions -- even in a breeze. Start by practicing the "easy" way and THEN work on being able to do it the "hard" way. Leave the helm alone during the maneuver -- it's only effective in forward anyway.
                        The second "secret" to this is that you can NOT be gentle with the power when you "goose." Think of it as handling a mule, not a lover. It will makes LOTS of noise, and if you're in shallow water (say, less than 5 to 8 feet under the keel, you'll kick up a LOT of mud to boot. If you're lucky enough to live in an area where there are watermen (who most all use single-screw boats -- think about it!), watch THEM turning and backing in small spaces. In our area, you can hear their engines a mile away doing this. Observe the action of the stern during the forward goose -- it seems to almost "hop" over several feet in the direction you want it to go. As you watch what's going on during the turn, you'll note that you're effectively moving the stern around the bow -- or at least a point maybe 25% back from the bow. This is quite different from what the twin-screw folks can do by pivoting around the stern -- or at least a point maybe 25% forward of the stern. Nonetheless, it works pretty
                        well.
                        Here's the rub. While you're doing all this, the wind and/or current is causing you to drift. Start by practicing this on a calm day. THEN, when you can do it quickly and smartly, try it in the wind. The quicker you turn, the less distance you'll drift. When trying it in a narrow slipway or around docks, you'll just need to allow for the drift by starting your maneuver a suitable distance up wind or current.
                        You'll also find that this works a lot easier with a semi-displacement boat (with very little keel aft) and with fin-keel sailboats (that's where I learned this), but it will work with the full-keel trawler (or sailboat) -- it just takes more of a "goose" (and MORE gooses (geese?) to make the turn.
                        After you've gotten pretty good at this, take her into a slipway where the boats don't hang out the ends of the slips and practice making the turns in tight quarters. If you have a flybridge, that's the best place to do this from so you can watch both ends of the boat. If you only have a lower station, you'll want to put a spotter on the stern to watch your distance from the pilings. Do this the first time on a calm day. Soon you'll be doing it confidently in a bit of a breeze.
                        OK, so far, we have only talked about rotating the boat, but there's yet another maneuvering requirement that's just as tough for the single-screw boat -- that's backing in a straight line. It's really not all that hard IF you remember secret #2. Always use quick, hard bursts of power when you "goose." This will let you complete the maneuver in shortest order, minimizing the drift due to wind and/or current.
                        OK, let's say we want to back our boat (that backs to starboard due to propwalk) slowly into a narrow slipway. Start by lining up with your stern headed in toward the slipway and put your helm all the way over to starboard (and leave it there). (WHY put the helm to starboard? Because when you're backing slowly the helm has very little effect anyway -- especially with a full-keel boat, so putting it to port won't do much to counteract the natural tendency of the stern to move to starboard anyway, and we're going to need the helm to starboard for the "gooses" -- you knew that had to be coming, right?) Now, put her in reverse and give her enough throttle to get her moving in reverse. As soon as she's moving backward (and starting to turn to starboard), shift into neutral and coast. This will stop the propwalk and let you coast almost straight back. As you start to slow, shift back into forward and give her a quick goose. Because of the starboard helm, this will "hop" the stern to port
                        without moving forward (completely offsetting the propwalk -- plus maybe a little more), and then you can then repeat the process. Now, this may sound a little complicated (you'll be following a slightly "scalloped" path), but you can back as slowly as the wind/current conditions will allow without terrorizing yourself or the other owners in the yard.
                        Now, wouldn't it be easier to get a bowthruster and let the bowthruster do all the work? Sadly, no, at least not with a 20-ton, full-keel boat and most electric bow thrusters (although hydraulic thrusters of, say 25 hp or so, can be very effective). Even in calm conditions, you can only move the BOW with the bow thruster, so offsetting the propwalk is easier with the gooses, since THEY move the stern back into place. We have a bow thruster, but I seldom use it -- relying instead on the techniques I've been talking about here -- they're MUCH more reliable. The bow thruster is a 5-hp, 12-volt model that draws nearly 400 amps from a dedicated 8D battery located about 2 feet away. As I recall, it puts out around 150 lbs of thrust, maybe a tad more. However, it doesn't take much in the way of marine growth to reduce that thrust significantly. On the other hand, the 100+ hp main engine can always be counted on to be sufficient. On the other hand, I only count the bowthruster for a little
                        "finesse" in calm conditions -- in conjunction with these other techniques. By itself it won't prevent a disaster in a fresh breeze.
                        Finally, practice these maneuvers over and over until you feel comfortable with them. Pick a calm day (during the week when nobody's around) and practice backing into every slipway in the marina. Then, when you think you're ready, come in bow first and practice backing out and then doing 180s to get out. THEN, pick out a few empty slips well into the slipway and practice the 90-degree turn to line up with the slip and back in! (Believe it or not -- I find it easier to back into a slip now than trying to come in pointy end first.) If you have sturdy rub rails (let's hope you do), get used to letting them touch the pilings, gently of course -- otherwise you'll need a helper to fend off occasionally. The key is practice and MORE practice (along with quick, hard geese) so you know exactly how YOUR boat handles.
                        For some discussion on backing a single-screw boat into a slip with spring lines (which is even slicker), check out my Website:
                        http://www.his.com/~vann/KrgStuff/Krognidx.htm
                        PS. PLEASE don't let your boat know I likened her to a mule!
                        Later another TWL subscriber made the following comment, in part:
                        >I have a marvelous collection of very fuzzy texts in English, French
                        >and German too, where the GOOSING principle is decidedly not stressed.
                        To which I replied:
                        This comment (and several other similar ones) prompted me to check in the various texts on boat handling I have lying about. Know what? You're right! Only ONE even came close to describing the "backing-and-filling" technique. The one that does describe it is "Boat Handling Under Power," John Mellor, Sheridan House, Inc., 1993. Unfortunately, John doesn't use this term to describe it however. On p. 37, he describes "Turning at Low Speed," where he states, "It is essential to appreciate that a boat with a rudder can best be turned at low speeds by driving a powerful flow of water from the propeller across the rudder; the slow water flow past the boat will produce very sluggish steering. A tight turn can thus be made by using a succession of short, sharp bursts of power, maximizing the turning effect of the slipstream while minimizing forward movement." (For some reason he doesn't mention using reverse to aid in minimizing forward movement.) However, in the succeeding section, "Turning
                        Short," John goes on to state, "A single-screw boat with a rudder can, surprisingly perhaps, be turned more tightly than twin screws, being capable of a three-point turn quite literally on the spot... The secret is to make the initial turn against the propeller effects, giving a brief hard kick ahead to swing her with the slipstream over a fully angled rudder. As soon as the stern begins to swing, put her full astern and allow the increased prop effects in astern gear to continue pulling her stern around; there is no need to alter the position of the rudder as it will only have effect when the prop is going ahead. Then go ahead again as before, and repeat the whole cycle as often as necessary. As long as you never allow the boat to actually gather way ahead or astern, simply using prop effects or slipstream to swing the stern sideways each time, she will turn on the spot quickly and powerfully. The more nearly stopped the boat is to begin with, the tighter the turn." Now if he'd
                        only called it "goosing!" (;^)
                        BTW, I recommend John's book (I have the paperback edition) VERY highly. He describes a LOT of techniques that will be useful for handling trawlers -- like how to move the boat directly sideways (without turning at all) using the bowthruster, docking alongside, maneuvering in wind and current, how to use spring lines and warps (very important, IMHO, when clearance for a turn is only inches, rather than feet -- and a LOT easier to do than it sounds, even short-handed -- especially if you have a sturdy rub rail), narrow-waters handling (including how to "read" your boat's message to you that she's getting too close to shallow water for comfort), an so on. He also describes the Mediterranean moor (including how to do it in a strong crosswind). Only "biggies" missing seem to be the Bahamian moor (more of an anchoring technique than a maneuvering technique, I suppose) and how to cross a bar with a strong following sea that's moving faster than you are (often the case with trawlers). Since
                        the helm responds BACKWARDS under these conditions, I think it deserved some discussion.
                        Another topic which could have used some discussion is what I call "weather cocking," the tendency of a boat that's dead stopped to turn it's bow away (usually) from the wind. It's VERY useful to understand exactly how your boat behaves when dead stopped in a wind, because this turning effect can be too powerful to counteract without heroic measures. Better to understand what she's going to do and then plan wherever possible to take advantage of it. This is particularly necessary with backing-and-filling in tight quarters where you don't need to be battling any adverse forces. (Of course, you'll always have to consider the downwind drift due to the wind -- both in planning where to start your turns and in completing the process smartly to reduce the time you're exposed to the wind effect.)
                        Next time you're out in a good breeze, stop dead in the water with your bow either just off the wind or a right angles to it. Now, watch what happens. Of course, the boat will start to drift downwind. That's expected. However, note that it may TURN also. How she turns and how fast she turns may be VERY useful to account for in tight quarters. For example, a sailboat under power (sails furled) will almost always "weathercock" with her stern toward the wind. With a fin-keel sailboat, this will happen VERY quickly, regardless of her angle to the wind when you stopped. (The reason is that the wind pressure on the mast and above-water portion of the hull acts forward of the spot where the water acts on the underwater portion of the hull, including the keel.) With a trawler, this effect may not be as dramatic and could, I suppose, be exactly the opposite, depending on the design of the hull and deckhouse location. Our Krogen 42, for example, hardly turns at all. (Frankly, I preferred the
                        rapid turning of our old fin-keel sailboat!) Why? Well, when I planned my tight-quarters turn with the sailboat, I would intentionally stop with the bow at least 20 degrees or so off the wind IN THE DIRECTION I WANTED TO TURN ANYWAY. Thus, this turning effect aided the backing and filling rather than opposed it. Now, I have to do ALL the turning work myself. I strongly suggest you find out how your own boat behaves in the wind when stopped -- do it out in the harbor where you won't have to worry about hitting anything as you drift along, and then use her tendencies to your advantage when you can.
                        PS. John also mentions in his book the importance of pausing in neutral long enough for the gears to stop turning when shifting from forward to reverse and back. It should go without saying that the engine should be at idle speed before shifting into either forward or reverse. At the very least, high-speed shifts can cause the damper plate to disassemble itself or, even worse, cause the transmission itself to do so. (:^(
                        To which another TWL subscriber, added:
                        >The video "Single Engine Boat Handling" by Bennett Marine does show and
                        >explain the back and fill turn somewhat. The interactive docking
                        >simulator in the "Hands-on Powerboating" >CD of Chapman's is also great
                        >fun.
                        Yes, the video does, indeed, AND it features the Krogen Manatee 36 in all the demos!



                        Hello,
                        I am new to this group because I would like to learn more about the
                        sailing characteristics of the Bayfield 32. I currently own a
                        Pearson 28 which is a fin keel. She turns on a dime and my husband
                        has concerns that a boat such as the Bayfield 32 might not respond
                        as quickly. Obviously the full keel plays a huge role in that.
                        I invite any comments from owners of the 32 or those familiar with
                        the 32 so that i can learn more about her.

                        Thanks so much,

                        Joan







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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • John & Christine Jamieson
                        After 36 years in the navy, studying the theory and doing the practice - manouevring a full keel sailboat is simple if you remember a few simple facts. As
                        Message 11 of 26 , Sep 4, 2003
                          After 36 years in the navy, studying the theory and doing the practice - manouevring a full keel sailboat is simple if you remember a few simple facts. As most of us do not have the pleasure of owning twin screw vessels (which makes life much easier) we are stuck with a few basic physical principles.

                          1. Laminar flow over the rudder (which gives us most of our steering control) is almost non existant in reverse.

                          2. Prop walk is only one of the forces acting on a full keel vessel in reverse (normally a starboard turning screw which will move the stern to port when in reverse).

                          3. Pressure wave between the keel and the dock to starboard generated by the propeller wash when going astern. This will accentuate prop walk by pushing the stern to port.

                          You cannot steer the boat going astern in the same fashion as you do when going ahead as you do not have the same laminar flow over the rudder (ie combination of prop wash and flow generated by the forward motion). The trick is to put the helm over in the direction you want the stern to go BEFORE you go astern. If you do not get the desired results break the pressure wave by going into neutral for a brief period. This is the first step to back and fill which Des has described in some detail. Just remember, gooseing loses its effect in shallow water so you need a tender hand on the throttle under those circumstances. The principle is the same just don't use as much power.
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Des Cameron
                          To: bayfieldyachts@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 5:36 PM
                          Subject: RE: [BYOR] Bayfield 32 sailing characteristics


                          Hi Joan,
                          I have a Bayfield 29 also the full keel cutter rig as is the B32. I thoroughly enjoy sailing her and you soon get used to her characteristics. Its just a case of practice - practice and more practice until you become familiar with her. The cutter rig is a joy to sail and with the wind turned up a notch or two is exhilarating. The following should help you.
                          Cheers Des.
                          B29 Soup and Desert.


                          9.5 Maneuvering the Single-Screw Trawler: The Art of "Goosing" to Make 360 Turns
                          Back in November, 1997 a lively thread popped up on the Internet Trawler-World mailing list, TWL, on Single vs. Twin engines. This perennial subject quickly evolved into a discussion of how to maneuver a single engine boat -- an art that must be learned by a Krogen captain to be able to look "cool" and avoid serious damage to one's boat and pride (not to mention others' boats). I tried to describe in text form some tips on how to do this, and judging from the responses from others on the list, it seemed helpful. Although this sort of stuff is "old-hat" to the long-time, single-screw skippers, I thought some of the new folks in our club might find it useful It all started with the following two quotes. (In Internet email quotes from some else's messages are usually denoted my the ">" marks at the left margin.)
                          >"October would occasionally simply decide she wouldn't turn to port. We
                          >got tired of doing 270 turns."
                          and
                          >Exactly. My present single engine boat has a keel and a lovely great
                          >rudder but with any wind blowing ( a Mistral can go on for a week) you
                          >can forget about backing her anywhere but left about. The 270 degree
                          >turn is often the only option I've had in a medium wind - and it's
                          >great luck if I've got room for one in a Mediterranean harbour - or on
                          >our narrow canals.
                          At the risk of stating what may be obvious to some of the folks on this list, I'm going to toss my $0.02 into this part of the thread...
                          First of all, I've had this identical discussion with some of the single-screw owners in our marina and the ones who've been bold enough to try these techniques have told me the experience has been very helpful.
                          The first "secret" to tight-quarter maneuvering the single-screw boat is to learn how to "back and fill" to "rotate" the boat, not "drive" her around. Using this technique, you can do 360-degree turns in EITHER direction in less than two lengths of your boat -- and, if you get good at it, it'll be 1.5 lengths or so. This technique consists of stopping completely and putting the helm all the way over and leaving it there throughout the turn. Then shift into forward and give the engine a quick "goose." You really have to hit it hard, so the first time you practice this, try it out in the harbor where you're close enough to objects to see the effect of what you're doing, but not so close you're likely to get into trouble. As soon as you've "goosed her" forward, throttle back, then immediately shift into reverse and "goose her" again -- hard enough to kill all forward motion. You will see that the forward goose has rotated the boat perhaps 30 o r 40 degrees and the reverse goose has
                          killed her way again so she's barely moved forward. Repeat the process over and over until you've rotated the boat the desired amount.
                          Of course, because of stern walk in reverse, you'll find this works better in one direction than the other. For example, our boat backs to starboard, so rotating the boat to port is MUCH easier because BOTH parts of the maneuver (forward AND reverse) assist the turn, whereas when you turn her to starboard the reverse goose tends to slow the turn. However, it CAN be done in both directions -- even in a breeze. Start by practicing the "easy" way and THEN work on being able to do it the "hard&qu ot; way. Leave the helm alone during the maneuver -- it's only effective in forward anyway.
                          The second "secret" to this is that you can NOT be gentle with the power when you "goose." Think of it as handling a mule, not a lover. It will makes LOTS of noise, and if you're in shallow water (say, less than 5 to 8 feet under the keel, you'll kick up a LOT of mud to boot. If you're lucky enough to live in an area where there are watermen (who most all use single-screw boats -- think about it!), watch THEM turning and backing in small spaces. In our area, you can hear their engines a mile away doing this. Observe the action of the stern during the forward goose -- it seems to almost "hop" over several feet in the direction you want it to go. As you watch what's going on during the turn, you'll note that you're effectively moving the stern around the bow -- or at least a point maybe 25% back from the bow. This is quite different from what the twin-screw folks can do by pivoting around the stern -- or at least a point maybe 25% forward of the stern. Nonetheless, it works pretty< BR> well.
                          Here's the rub. While you're doing all this, the wind and/or current is causing you to drift. Start by practicing this on a calm day. THEN, when you can do it quickly and smartly, try it in the wind. The quicker you turn, the less distance you'll drift. When trying it in a narrow slipway or around docks, you'll just need to allow for the drift by starting your maneuver a suitable distance up wind or current.
                          You'll also find that this works a lot easier with a semi-displacement boat (with very little keel aft) and with fin-keel sailboats (that's where I learned this), but it will work with the full-keel trawler (or sailboat) -- it just takes more of a "goose" (and MORE gooses (geese?) to make the turn.
                          After you've gotten pretty good at this, take her into a slipway where the boats don't hang out the ends of the slips and practice making the turns in tight quarters. If you have a flybridge, that's the best place to do this from so you can watch both ends of the boat. If you only have a lower station, you'll want to put a spotter on the stern to watch your distance from the pilings. Do this the first time on a calm day. Soon you'll be doing it confidently in a bit of a breeze.
                          OK, so far, we have only talked about rotating the boat, but there's yet another maneuvering requirement that's just as tough for the single-screw boat -- that's backing in a straight line. It's really not all that hard IF you remember secret #2. Always use quick, hard bursts of power when you "goose." This will let you complete the maneuver in shortest order, minimizing the drift due to wind and/or current.
                          OK, let's say we want to back our boat (that backs to starboard due to propwalk) slowly into a narrow slipway. Start by lining up with your stern headed in toward the slipway and put your helm all the way over to starboard (and leave it there). (WHY put the helm to starboard? Because when you're backing slowly the helm has very little effect anyway -- especially with a full-keel boat, so putting it to port won't do much to counteract the natural tendency of the stern to move to starboard anyway, and we're g oing to need the helm to starboard for the "gooses" -- you knew that had to be coming, right?) Now, put her in reverse and give her enough throttle to get her moving in reverse. As soon as she's moving backward (and starting to turn to starboard), shift into neutral and coast. This will stop the propwalk and let you coast almost straight back. As you start to slow, shift back into forward and give her a quick goose. Because of the starboard helm, this will "hop" the stern to port
                          without moving forward (completely offsetting the propwalk -- plus maybe a little more), and then you can then repeat the process. Now, this may sound a little complicated (you'll be following a slightly "scalloped" path), but you can back as slowly as the wind/current conditions will allow without terrorizing yourself or the other owners in the yard.
                          Now, wouldn't it be easier to get a bowthruster and let the bowthruster do all the work? Sadly, no, at least not with a 20-ton, full-keel boat and most electric bow thrusters (although hydraulic thrusters of, say 25 hp or so, can be very effective). Even in calm conditions, you can only move the BOW with the bow thruster, so offsetting the propwalk is easier with the gooses, since THEY move the stern back into place. We have a bow thruster, but I seldom use it -- relying instead on the techniques I've been talking about here -- they're MUCH more reliable. The bow thruster is a 5-hp, 12-volt model that draws nearly 400 amps from a dedicated 8D battery located about 2 feet away. As I recall, it puts out around 150 lbs of thrust, maybe a tad more. However, it doesn't take much in the way of marine growth to reduce that thrust significantly. On the other hand, the 100+ hp main engine can always be counted on to be sufficient. On the other hand, I only count the bowthruster for a little
                          "finesse" in calm conditions -- in conjunction with these other techniques. By itself it won't prevent a disaster in a fresh breeze.
                          Finally, practice these maneuvers over and over until you feel comfortable with them. Pick a calm day (during the week when nobody's around) and practice backing into every slipway in the marina. Then, when you think you're ready, come in bow first and practice backing out and then doing 180s to get out. THEN, pick out a few empty slips well into the slipway and practice the 90-degree turn to line up with the slip and back in! (Believe it or not -- I find it easier to back into a slip now than trying to com e in pointy end first.) If you have sturdy rub rails (let's hope you do), get used to letting them touch the pilings, gently of course -- otherwise you'll need a helper to fend off occasionally. The key is practice and MORE practice (along with quick, hard geese) so you know exactly how YOUR boat handles.
                          For some discussion on backing a single-screw boat into a slip with spring lines (which is even slicker), check out my Website:
                          http://www.his.com/~vann/KrgStuff/Krognidx.htm
                          PS. PLEASE don't let your boat know I likened her to a mule!
                          Later another TWL subscriber made the following comment, in part:
                          >I have a marvelous collection of very fuzzy texts in English, French
                          >and German too, where the GOOSING principle is decidedly not stressed.
                          To which I replied:
                          This comment (and several other similar ones) prompted me to check in the various texts on boat handling I have lying about. Know what? You're right! Only ONE even came close to describing the "backing-and-filling" technique. The one that does describe it is "Boat Handling Under Power," John Mellor, Sheridan House, Inc., 1993. Unfortunately, John doesn't use this term to describe it however. On p. 37, he describes "Turning at Low Speed," where he states, "It is essential t o appreciate that a boat with a rudder can best be turned at low speeds by driving a powerful flow of water from the propeller across the rudder; the slow water flow past the boat will produce very sluggish steering. A tight turn can thus be made by using a succession of short, sharp bursts of power, maximizing the turning effect of the slipstream while minimizing forward movement." (For some reason he doesn't mention using reverse to aid in minimizing forward movement.) However, in the succeeding sect ion, "Turning
                          Short," John goes on to state, "A single-screw boat with a rudder can, surprisingly perhaps, be turned more tightly than twin screws, being capable of a three-point turn quite literally on the spot... The secret is to make the initial turn against the propeller effects, giving a brief hard kick ahead to swing her with the slipstream over a fully angled rudder. As soon as the stern begins to swing, put her full astern and allow the increased prop effects in astern gear to continue pulling her ster n around; there is no need to alter the position of the rudder as it will only have effect when the prop is going ahead. Then go ahead again as before, and repeat the whole cycle as often as necessary. As long as you never allow the boat to actually gather way ahead or astern, simply using prop effects or slipstream to swing the stern sideways each time, she will turn on the spot quickly and powerfully. The more nearly stopped the boat is to begin with, the tighter the turn." Now if he'd
                          only called it "goosing!" (;^)
                          BTW, I recommend John's book (I have the paperback edition) VERY highly. He describes a LOT of techniques that will be useful for handling trawlers -- like how to move the boat directly sideways (without turning at all) using the bowthruster, docking alongside, maneuvering in wind and current, how to use spring lines and warps (very important, IMHO, when clearance for a turn is only inches, rather than feet -- and a LOT easier to do than it sounds, even short-handed -- especially if you have a sturdy rub ra il), narrow-waters handling (including how to "read" your boat's message to you that she's getting too close to shallow water for comfort), an so on. He also describes the Mediterranean moor (including how to do it in a strong crosswind). Only "biggies" missing seem to be the Bahamian moor (more of an anchoring technique than a maneuvering technique, I suppose) and how to cross a bar with a strong following sea that's moving faster than you are (often the case with trawlers). Since
                          the helm responds BACKWARDS under these conditions, I think it deserved some discussion.
                          Another topic which could have used some discussion is what I call "weather cocking," the tendency of a boat that's dead stopped to turn it's bow away (usually) from the wind. It's VERY useful to understand exactly how your boat behaves when dead stopped in a wind, because this turning effect can be too powerful to counteract without heroic measures. Better to understand what she's going to do and then plan wherever possible to take advantage of it. This is particularly necessary with backing-and- filling in tight quarters where you don't need to be battling any adverse forces. (Of course, you'll always have to consider the downwind drift due to the wind -- both in planning where to start your turns and in completing the process smartly to reduce the time you're exposed to the wind effect.)
                          Next time you're out in a good breeze, stop dead in the water with your bow either just off the wind or a right angles to it. Now, watch what happens. Of course, the boat will start to drift downwind. That's expected. However, note that it may TURN also. How she turns and how fast she turns may be VERY useful to account for in tight quarters. For example, a sailboat under power (sails furled) will almost always "weathercock" with her stern toward the wind. With a fin-keel sailboat, this will happe n VERY quickly, regardless of her angle to the wind when you stopped. (The reason is that the wind pressure on the mast and above-water portion of the hull acts forward of the spot where the water acts on the underwater portion of the hull, including the keel.) With a trawler, this effect may not be as dramatic and could, I suppose, be exactly the opposite, depending on the design of the hull and deckhouse location. Our Krogen 42, for example, hardly turns at all. (Frankly, I preferred the
                          rapid turning of our old fin-keel sailboat!) Why? Well, when I planned my tight-quarters turn with the sailboat, I would intentionally stop with the bow at least 20 degrees or so off the wind IN THE DIRECTION I WANTED TO TURN ANYWAY. Thus, this turning effect aided the backing and filling rather than opposed it. Now, I have to do ALL the turning work myself. I strongly suggest you find out how your own boat behaves in the wind when stopped -- do it out in the harbor where you won't have to worry about hitt ing anything as you drift along, and then use her tendencies to your advantage when you can.
                          PS. John also mentions in his book the importance of pausing in neutral long enough for the gears to stop turning when shifting from forward to reverse and back. It should go without saying that the engine should be at idle speed before shifting into either forward or reverse. At the very least, high-speed shifts can cause the damper plate to disassemble itself or, even worse, cause the transmission itself to do so. (:^(
                          To which another TWL subscriber, added:
                          >The video "Single Engine Boat Handling" by Bennett Marine does show and
                          >explain the back and fill turn somewhat. The interactive docking
                          >simulator in the "Hands-on Powerboating" >CD of Chapman's is also great
                          >fun.
                          Yes, the video does, indeed, AND it features the Krogen Manatee 36 in all the demos!



                          Hello,
                          I am new to this group because I would like to learn more about the
                          sailing characteristics of the Bayfield 32. I currently own a
                          Pearson 28 which is a fin keel. She turns on a dime and my husband
                          has concerns that a boat such as the Bayfield 32 might not respond
                          as quickly. Obviously the full keel plays a huge role in that.
                          I invite any comments from owners of the 32 or those familiar with
                          the 32 so that i can learn more about her.

                          Thanks so much,

                          Joan







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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • gabrielvillada
                          I am considering purchasing a 32. The 32 is discribed as a 32D. What is the difference between a 32C and a 32D. I do not want the tall rig. Any info on this
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jun 22, 2006
                            I am considering purchasing a 32. The 32 is discribed as a 32D. What
                            is the difference between a 32C and a 32D. I do not want the tall rig.
                            Any info on this aspect?

                            Gabe
                          • dale demyan
                            Never heard of a 32D Dale gabrielvillada wrote: I am considering purchasing a 32. The 32 is discribed as a 32D. What is the
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jun 22, 2006
                              Never heard of a 32D
                              Dale

                              gabrielvillada <gabrielvillada@...> wrote:
                              I am considering purchasing a 32. The 32 is discribed as a 32D. What
                              is the difference between a 32C and a 32D. I do not want the tall rig.
                              Any info on this aspect?

                              Gabe






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                            • hornharbor1
                              ... rig. ... Gabe, I don t believe there is a 32 D . I have a 1988 32C for sale, it is in the Chesapeake and is in top notch condition with many custom
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jun 28, 2006
                                --- In bayfieldyachts@yahoogroups.com, "gabrielvillada"
                                <gabrielvillada@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I am considering purchasing a 32. The 32 is discribed as a 32D. What
                                > is the difference between a 32C and a 32D. I do not want the tall
                                rig.
                                > Any info on this aspect?
                                >
                                > Gabe
                                >
                                Gabe, I don't believe there is a 32"D". I have a 1988 32C for sale, it
                                is in the Chesapeake and is in top notch condition with many custom
                                features. I have another boat coming in July and will sell this one
                                below market if I can sell it now. .... Max
                              • vince
                                Hi fellow boaters, I just bought my first sailboat a Bayfield 32. The trouble is it is a long time before the good weather comes back. Its a long 5 months.
                                Message 15 of 26 , Dec 10, 2013
                                    Hi fellow boaters,
                                    I just bought my first sailboat a Bayfield 32.  The trouble is it is a long time before the good weather comes back. Its a long 5 months.   Vince
                                • Herrick Family
                                  Congrats! Satisfy your long wait by completing boat tasks and decorating the cabin. It s like anticipating a new baby. At least you know it s sex. Tod Sent
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Dec 10, 2013
                                    Congrats! Satisfy your long wait by completing boat tasks and decorating the cabin. It's like anticipating a new baby. At least you know it's sex. 

                                    Tod

                                    Sent from my iPhone

                                    On Dec 10, 2013, at 8:25 PM, "vince" <iv.boutilier@...> wrote:

                                     

                                      Hi fellow boaters,
                                      I just bought my first sailboat a Bayfield 32.  The trouble is it is a long time before the good weather comes back. Its a long 5 months.   Vince

                                  • George Hirsch
                                    Welcome Vince! Tell us a little bit about your new baby! Year? Location? Engine/outfitments? Did you keep the name? Was it from one of our members? George
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Dec 10, 2013
                                      Welcome Vince! 

                                      Tell us a little bit about your new baby! Year? Location? Engine/outfitments? Did you keep the name? Was it from one of our members? 

                                      George Hirsch


                                      On Dec 10, 2013, at 8:25 PM, "vince" <iv.boutilier@...> wrote:

                                       

                                        Hi fellow boaters,
                                        I just bought my first sailboat a Bayfield 32.  The trouble is it is a long time before the good weather comes back. Its a long 5 months.   Vince

                                    • Jack Coffey
                                      George; Sadly I sold my b-32 to Vince. He is a member of the same yacht club here in Nova Scotia. My arthritis has my knees in bad shape and I figure it was
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Dec 11, 2013
                                        George; Sadly I sold my b-32 to Vince. He is a member of the same yacht club here in Nova Scotia. My arthritis has my knees in bad shape and I figure it was time. Vince tells me he will change her name. He was just here at the house a few minutes ago.
                                        I will miss her, but I'm like the guy in the movies that pulls a spare gun out from a holster on his leg, I've got a trailer sailor under a tarp that will give me my fix, albeit not as nice as my Bayfield. I'll still be a member of this group, can't give up everything!!!!!!

                                         
                                        JACK, S/V SPIRIT OF ERIN (45-50'-58"N;60-12'-03"W)


                                        On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:27:57 PM, George Hirsch <b32george@...> wrote:
                                         
                                        Welcome Vince! 

                                        Tell us a little bit about your new baby! Year? Location? Engine/outfitments? Did you keep the name? Was it from one of our members? 

                                        George Hirsch


                                        On Dec 10, 2013, at 8:25 PM, "vince" <iv.boutilier@...> wrote:

                                         
                                          Hi fellow boaters,
                                          I just bought my first sailboat a Bayfield 32.  The trouble is it is a long time before the good weather comes back. Its a long 5 months.   Vince


                                      • George Hirsch
                                        I hear ya, Jack. The little one s just ain t the same! Love the way our Bayfield sails! Thanks George On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:57:23 AM, Jack Coffey
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Dec 11, 2013
                                          I hear ya, Jack. The little one's just ain't the same! Love the way our Bayfield sails!

                                          Thanks

                                          George


                                          On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:57:23 AM, Jack Coffey <spiritoferin@...> wrote:
                                           
                                          George; Sadly I sold my b-32 to Vince. He is a member of the same yacht club here in Nova Scotia. My arthritis has my knees in bad shape and I figure it was time. Vince tells me he will change her name. He was just here at the house a few minutes ago.
                                          I will miss her, but I'm like the guy in the movies that pulls a spare gun out from a holster on his leg, I've got a trailer sailor under a tarp that will give me my fix, albeit not as nice as my Bayfield. I'll still be a member of this group, can't give up everything!!!!!!

                                           
                                          JACK, S/V SPIRIT OF ERIN (45-50'-58"N;60-12'-03"W)


                                          On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:27:57 PM, George Hirsch <b32george@...> wrote:
                                           
                                          Welcome Vince! 

                                          Tell us a little bit about your new baby! Year? Location? Engine/outfitments? Did you keep the name? Was it from one of our members? 

                                          George Hirsch


                                          On Dec 10, 2013, at 8:25 PM, "vince" <iv.boutilier@...> wrote:

                                           
                                            Hi fellow boaters,
                                            I just bought my first sailboat a Bayfield 32.  The trouble is it is a long time before the good weather comes back. Its a long 5 months.   Vince




                                        • David Hipschman
                                          I still have my 32C for sale if someone needs one. Sent from my iPhone as if by magic.
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Dec 11, 2013
                                            I still have my 32C for sale if someone needs one.

                                            Sent from my iPhone as if by magic.


                                            On Dec 11, 2013, at 11:24 AM, George Hirsch <b32george@...> wrote:

                                             

                                            I hear ya, Jack. The little one's just ain't the same! Love the way our Bayfield sails!

                                            Thanks

                                            George


                                            On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:57:23 AM, Jack Coffey <spiritoferin@...> wrote:
                                             
                                            George; Sadly I sold my b-32 to Vince. He is a member of the same yacht club here in Nova Scotia. My arthritis has my knees in bad shape and I figure it was time. Vince tells me he will change her name. He was just here at the house a few minutes ago.
                                            I will miss her, but I'm like the guy in the movies that pulls a spare gun out from a holster on his leg, I've got a trailer sailor under a tarp that will give me my fix, albeit not as nice as my Bayfield. I'll still be a member of this group, can't give up everything!!!!!!

                                             
                                            JACK, S/V SPIRIT OF ERIN (45-50'-58"N;60-12'-03"W)


                                            On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:27:57 PM, George Hirsch <b32george@...> wrote:
                                             
                                            Welcome Vince! 

                                            Tell us a little bit about your new baby! Year? Location? Engine/outfitments? Did you keep the name? Was it from one of our members? 

                                            George Hirsch


                                            On Dec 10, 2013, at 8:25 PM, "vince" <iv.boutilier@...> wrote:

                                             
                                              Hi fellow boaters,
                                              I just bought my first sailboat a Bayfield 32.  The trouble is it is a long time before the good weather comes back. Its a long 5 months.   Vince




                                          • davidhipschman
                                            Tom: My 32C s clearance is 44 feet. Actually measured it before we left Stuart to cross Lake O to Fort Myers, FL
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Feb 1, 2014

                                              Tom:

                                              My 32C's clearance is 44 feet. Actually measured it before we left Stuart to cross Lake O to Fort Myers, FL

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