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master sculpts for 15mm figures sneaky peaky

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  • sheikyurdices
    Hi all, I ve posted some scans of a few of the first 15mm figures masters, they are in a folder called 15mm greens in the files section of the group. They
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 4 7:54 PM
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      Hi all,
      I've posted some scans of a few of the first 15mm figures masters,
      they are in a folder called "15mm greens" in the "files" section of
      the group.
      They are:
      Egyptian court follower with feathers fan.
      Greek priest with flint sacrificial knife.
      Emishi foot archers (2 of 4).
      Roman flaming pig and crew.
      Apologies for the poor quality of the scans but I really can't take
      proper pictures now... hope to have the first casts early in May, and
      will post decent pictures of painted samples ASAP!
      Several other figures are also ready now and many more are in various
      stages of completion, but I'm afraid I have no idea as yet of what
      exactly will be available and when. Anyway... they're coming! :)

      Cheers,

      Claudio
    • Duncan Head
      ... Hmm, not sure about these. You certainly want topknots as a hairstyle - Nihon Shoki says the Emishi stuck arrows in their topknots. Is that an Ainu quiver?
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 5 12:24 AM
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        Claudio, "sheikyurdices" <baueda@d...> wrote:
        > Emishi foot archers (2 of 4).

        Hmm, not sure about these. You certainly want topknots as a
        hairstyle - Nihon Shoki says the Emishi stuck arrows in their
        topknots. Is that an Ainu quiver? Must admit the Emishi-Ainu line is
        not the one I'd take.

        > Roman flaming pig and crew.

        I don't think the Romans did set their pigs on fire, did they? I
        believe that refinement is only attributed to the Greek pigs at
        Megara. Haven't got the sources here to check, but IIRC the squealing
        Roman pigs that disrupted Pyrrhus' elephants did so almost by
        accident.

        cheers,
        Duncan
      • sheikyurdices
        Dear Duncan, thanks for the comments! Topknot is on the way, I wasn t totally sure of that, so I waited to add it... see below... Same for curved swords , I
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 5 3:05 AM
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          Dear Duncan,
          thanks for the comments!
          Topknot is on the way, I wasn't totally sure of that, so I waited to
          add it... see below... Same for "curved swords", I think a proportion
          at least of them should also carry a sword, but can't find any
          reference of any kind to Emishi sword types and styles... something
          similar to a sukanto tachi would look appropriate but they were not
          curved... "weapons concealed in in fur garments" would indicate
          shorter, almost dagger size blades... any suggestion?
          The quiver is indeed based on a Ainu example, lacking any other
          evidence and given the general consensus is that the Ainu are the
          descendents of one Emishi tribe, seems a reasonable choice... is there
          any evidence against it, and what alternative would you suggest, the
          open early Japanese style quiver, like fig 3D in Osprey Elite 35?
          For the little I can find it would seems "emishi" is after all just a
          very generic term used for a wide range of tribal populations, pretty
          much like say "American Indians". Almost the only thing I keep find
          reference to and that they all seems to share were long hairs and
          beards (a trait certainly remained true in the Ainu!) I'm thinking of
          reflecting this with a variety of figures, and try to cover as much as
          possible a range from the most primitive fur clothed hunter types to
          the better equipped heavier soldiers with leather or wooden armour.
          The idea is to allow enough variation for an irregular army made of a
          confederation of different tribes, let people to represent massed bows
          and skirmishers with different figures and also leave everyone free to
          pick the figures they find more appropriate...
          In order to do this the range I'm considering at the moment is
          organised as:
          4-8 light foot archers (no armour, some leather hood, fur coats,
          closer to Ainu and representing hunters and the northern mountain
          tribesmen) The two greens I've posted belong to this group, not sure
          about swords for them?
          2-4 heavy foot archers (wooden or leather cuirass, helmet, swords,
          representing the southern tribes closer to early Yamato and elite
          warriors)
          2 mounted archers and possibly 1 or 2 mounted warriors with sword for
          commands.
          For the latter I need to do more research, for instance the DBM list
          says they "are credited with introducing leather armour to the
          Japanese" (is that you?) but would that include shoulder straps?
          Mounted will have a later and more Japanese appearance, assuming some
          cultural cross-pollination has taken place by 700, but I was thinking
          to have one of the figures still wearing a fur jacket. The second
          mounted command figure depend if I can come up with any reasonably
          plausible subject, like a standard bearer or something along those
          lines...
          Will try to post some sketch for more figures in the coming weeks...

          As for the flaming pigs, DBM Camillan Roman list has up to 3 elements
          of incendiary pigs, so yup, I'd guess fried beacon was popular even in
          Latium... :)

          Cheers,

          Claudio

          --- In baueda@yahoogroups.com, "Duncan Head" <Duncan.Head@m...> wrote:
          > Claudio, "sheikyurdices" <baueda@d...> wrote:
          > > Emishi foot archers (2 of 4).
          >
          > Hmm, not sure about these. You certainly want topknots as a
          > hairstyle - Nihon Shoki says the Emishi stuck arrows in their
          > topknots. Is that an Ainu quiver? Must admit the Emishi-Ainu line is
          > not the one I'd take.
          >
          > > Roman flaming pig and crew.
          >
          > I don't think the Romans did set their pigs on fire, did they? I
          > believe that refinement is only attributed to the Greek pigs at
          > Megara. Haven't got the sources here to check, but IIRC the squealing
          > Roman pigs that disrupted Pyrrhus' elephants did so almost by
          > accident.
          >
          > cheers,
          > Duncan
        • Duncan Head
          ... Good good. ... The warabite tachi is thought to be Emishi, because several examples were found in the Tohoku in c.7th-century sites. Short, broad, straight
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 5 6:53 AM
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            Claudio "sheikyurdices" <baueda@d...> wrote:
            > Topknot is on the way,

            Good good.

            > I wasn't totally sure of that, so I waited to add it... see
            > below... Same for "curved swords", I think a proportion
            > at least of them should also carry a sword, but can't find any
            > reference of any kind to Emishi sword types and styles... something
            > similar to a sukanto tachi would look appropriate but they were not
            > curved... "weapons concealed in in fur garments" would indicate
            > shorter, almost dagger size blades... any suggestion?

            The warabite tachi is thought to be Emishi, because several examples
            were found in the Tohoku in c.7th-century sites. Short, broad,
            straight or slightly-curved blade, hilt set at an angle - there's one
            at http://www.town.nagato.nagano.jp/youran/miti01.html
            Farris' "Heavenly Warriors" discusses it and illustrates some finds,
            and there's a discussion in Karl Friday's new one - "Samurai, Warfare
            and the State in Early Medieval Japan" (2003, in Routledge's Warfare
            & History series). Friday isn't so convinced by the idea that curved
            tachi developed from Emishi warabite, though.

            > The quiver is indeed based on a Ainu example, lacking any other
            > evidence and given the general consensus is that the Ainu are the
            > descendents of one Emishi tribe, seems a reasonable choice...
            > is there any evidence against it, and what alternative would you
            > suggest, the open early Japanese style quiver, like fig 3D in
            > Osprey Elite 35?
            > For the little I can find it would seems "emishi" is after all just
            > a very generic term used for a wide range of tribal populations,
            > pretty much like say "American Indians". Almost the only thing I
            > keep find reference to and that they all seems to share were long
            > hairs and beards (a trait certainly remained true in the Ainu!)

            My feeling is that the Hokkaido Ainu are not the same as the Honshu
            Emishi, though there are no doubt some mutual influences. It's
            interesting that (despite Bryant's Osprey reconstructions) early
            Japanese quivers, judging from the Kofun-era haniwa, were very
            different from samurai styles. So I suspect that the samurai ebira
            style _may_ have been Emishi, though I have no direct evidence for
            it. I'd certainly give ebira to Emishi cavalry. Infantry is trickier,
            especially since they could represent much earlier periods. I'd give
            them Yayoi-style quivers if I had any idea of what Yayoi quivers
            looked like.... perhaps the Kofun style worn vertically on the back,
            as at http://www.miho.or.jp/booth/html/artcon/00000113e.htm ?

            > I'm thinking of reflecting this with a variety of figures, and try
            > to cover as much as possible a range from the most primitive fur
            > clothed hunter types to the better equipped heavier soldiers with
            > leather or wooden armour.

            Have you seen the sketch at
            http://www.isn.ne.jp/~suzutayu/MHJapan/Emishi.html section 1?

            > The idea is to allow enough variation for an irregular army made
            > of a confederation of different tribes, let people to represent
            > massed bows and skirmishers with different figures and also leave
            > everyone free to pick the figures they find more appropriate...
            > In order to do this the range I'm considering at the moment is
            > organised as:
            > 4-8 light foot archers (no armour, some leather hood, fur coats,
            > closer to Ainu and representing hunters and the northern mountain
            > tribesmen) The two greens I've posted belong to this group, not sure
            > about swords for them?
            > 2-4 heavy foot archers (wooden or leather cuirass, helmet, swords,
            > representing the southern tribes closer to early Yamato and elite
            > warriors)
            > 2 mounted archers and possibly 1 or 2 mounted warriors with sword
            > for commands.
            > For the latter I need to do more research, for instance the DBM list
            > says they "are credited with introducing leather armour to the
            > Japanese" (is that you?) but would that include shoulder straps?

            That's Farris. 9th-century accounts do mention armoured Emishi
            horsemen - see http://www.isn.ne.jp/~suzutayu/MHJapan/Emishi.html
            sections 16 and 17. Russell Robinson says that the Ainu have leather
            lamellar armour that resembles archaic Japanese keiko styles,
            suggesting that it was introduced, perhaps via the Honshu Emishi,
            before the 10th century. So you could do worse than just copy keiko
            styles. I tried a sketch of an Emishi cavalryman and did a keiko with
            shoulder-straps but no shoulder-defences, based on the in the centre
            of whichever plate in Bryant's Osprey is about the 672 civil war.

            > Mounted will have a later and more Japanese appearance, assuming
            > some cultural cross-pollination has taken place by 700, but I was
            > thinking to have one of the figures still wearing a fur jacket.

            Fine.

            > The second mounted command figure depend if I can come up with any
            > reasonably plausible subject, like a standard bearer or something
            > along those lines...

            Nothing that I can recommend there.

            > Will try to post some sketch for more figures in the coming weeks...

            > As for the flaming pigs, DBM Camillan Roman list has up to 3
            > elements of incendiary pigs, so yup, I'd guess fried beacon was
            > popular even in Latium... :)

            Pigs, yes. Don't _think_ the sources mention flaming on this
            occasion. I'll check, if I can be bothered. It'll be in Scullard's
            Elephant book. It may even be in AMPW...

            cheers,
            Duncan
          • GenHansen@aol.com
            Claudio, I m looking forward to your palasade steaks. If I recall though, the berms have concrete blocks. Will you have a dirt mound more appropriated for
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 5 4:34 PM
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              Claudio,
              I'm looking forward to your palasade steaks. If I recall though, the berms
              have concrete blocks. Will you have a dirt mound more appropriated for the
              marching fort in the field?
              Wayne


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Gryps
              Greetings from Hellas!, From: sheikyurdices [mailto:baueda@dreamsstudio.com] [...] ... Well proportioned and a good all around in-mood figure! Just a couple of
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 7 3:01 AM
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                Greetings from Hellas!,

                From: sheikyurdices [mailto:baueda@...]

                [...]
                >Greek priest with flint sacrificial knife.

                Well proportioned and a good all around in-mood figure!
                Just a couple of notices, due to not detail of the picture, if you
                permit me:

                A) I don't remember any ancient hellenic source to specifically mention
                the use of flint / stone knives on sacrificial ceremonies.
                Perhaps I am wrong here - and, please, do correct me! - but I would
                suggest a normal metal knife...

                B) I can't see the detail of the head but it seems to have a kind of
                "diadema" around it, that is a long piece of cloth, like the one athelts
                use now for keeping sweat falling on their eyes.
                This was strictly only used by kings (Alexander the Great, his father
                Philip, earlier Leonidas etc), not high priests (unless of course they
                were both!) as both a sign of office and recognition (in peace and
                battle).
                Alexander is usual depicted with both "diadema" (as the king of
                Macedonia, the northern hellenic kingdom) and ram's horns (as the sign
                of divinity, taken from the Aegyptian legend of Amun-Re after his
                southern conquests).
                Even on his era there existed a macedonian "diadema" that was made of
                gold (and if I remember correclty depicted as a serpent?) with a kind of
                mechanism that either shortened or lenghtened it because it was said
                that the "diadema" had to fit perfectly on the king-to-be upon his
                corronation or else he couldn't become a king.
                Hellenic "diadema" is, obviously, a very ancient form of current
                european round (king-) crowns that differ from (ancient) eastern
                hat-like crowns.

                > Roman flaming pig and crew.

                As for flaming pigs, I can't help you but I will try to find something
                as soon as possible!

                Gryps,
                gryps@... ,
                Athens,
                Hellas.
              • sheikyurdices
                Hi Wayne, yup, look in the file section of the group for a picture called 15for-axyw.jpg They illustrate the plans for the new ranges of embankments, the low
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 7 5:29 PM
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                  Hi Wayne,
                  yup, look in the file section of the group for a picture called
                  15for-axyw.jpg
                  They illustrate the plans for the new ranges of embankments, the low
                  dirt mound 15for-AX will be the first one available and will also
                  allow for Egyptian shieldwall camps, also coming soon...

                  Cheers,

                  Claudio

                  --- In baueda@yahoogroups.com, GenHansen@a... wrote:
                  > Claudio,
                  > I'm looking forward to your palasade steaks. If I recall though,
                  the berms
                  > have concrete blocks. Will you have a dirt mound more appropriated
                  for the
                  > marching fort in the field?
                  > Wayne
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • GenHansen@aol.com
                  Claudio, I can t wait. Wayne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 7 6:41 PM
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                    Claudio,
                    I can't wait.
                    Wayne


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • sheikyurdices
                    ... Hi Gryps, and thank you for your comments! ... Early Roman sources mention it, and since a great deal of religious cerimonials and beliefs came for greece
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 26 4:09 AM
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                      --- In baueda@yahoogroups.com, "Gryps" <gryps@a...> wrote:
                      > Greetings from Hellas!,

                      Hi Gryps, and thank you for your comments!
                      As they come:

                      > A) I don't remember any ancient hellenic source to specifically mention
                      > the use of flint / stone knives on sacrificial ceremonies.
                      > Perhaps I am wrong here - and, please, do correct me! - but I would
                      > suggest a normal metal knife...

                      Early Roman sources mention it, and since a great deal of religious
                      cerimonials and beliefs came for greece I inferred their use also in
                      earlier times. Egyptian priests also use them for sacrifices, so there
                      may be some sort of continuity... It's a pure speculation on my part,
                      justified (I hope) by the general attachment to traditions.
                      In any case this is only one figure of a set, I'll make sure there
                      will be at least one other priest with a metal knife! :)

                      > B) I can't see the detail of the head but it seems to have a kind of
                      > "diadema" around it, that is a long piece of cloth, like the one athelts
                      > use now for keeping sweat falling on their eyes.
                      > This was strictly only used by kings (Alexander the Great, his father
                      > Philip, earlier Leonidas etc), not high priests (unless of course they
                      > were both!) as both a sign of office and recognition (in peace and
                      > battle).

                      You are probably completely correct here, all other figures will not
                      have a headband, thank you for pointing it out!
                      If you have suggestions for figures, poses and/or reference material
                      please feel free to pass it on, I'll be glad to include as many as
                      possible in the range!

                      Cheers,

                      Claudio
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