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Re: [BTSS] Allies and points

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  • cyberakuma@ymail.com
    http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2 6th edition sob faq and errata has
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 30, 2012
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      http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2 6th edition sob faq and errata has been released on the gw website and it says that characters allied to sisters units or allied units joined by sisters characters are subject to the acts of faith this certainly makes sisters a better allied force for a lot of players besides the dirt cheap power armoured gun lines and cheap almost indestructible and over powered for her price living saint

      but they are allowing us to attach 5 preachers to 5 allied units without absorbing force organisation allotments and give those five units acts of faith let alone other characters joining them

      sure a sanguinary priest maybe only a few pointa more and a lot better in many peoples eyes but this errata basically lets any force allying with sisters of battle in a smallish game have acts of faith for virtually every unit for just 200+ points

      --- In battle-sisters@yahoogroups.com, <andrewm9@...> wrote:
      >
      > My thoughts are solely based on worth of points and how they balance amongst the various codices. The Sanguinary Priest is just an egregious example. Before when they availabel only in their own codices models' point costs can be jsutfiied basedon their relative value to the codex in question. Now that they can be taken in other codices the seemingly random point costing is more questionable. Space Wolves can easily take 3 sanguinary priests and they don't even need to join sqauds for them to be useful. No one is goign to take the Munitorum Priest which costs 5 points less becuase the Sanguinary Priest is way more bang for his buck so to speak.
      >
      > In any case the Sanguinary Priest amongst Sisters doesn't have to join a unit to be useful. In order to use them you could take 2 SP's and an 10 man assault squad combat squadded for ablative wounds for the two and spread out the Furious Charge and Feel no Pain. You could also take a cheap HQ like a captain for a little clsoe combat punch. I see a lot of magic cups in people's future.
      >
      > Andrew
      >
      > ---- Cho Kai <cho_kai@...> wrote:
      > > Well, first of all, they have greatly limited the Army combinations that can attach ICs across allied forces. They have to be 'Brothers at Arms' in order to do that and recieve those sorts of bonuses... thus no replacing SoB Priests with Sanguinary Priests. There may be other balance issues with stacking bonuses across the Codexes but we will have to see how that plays out once 6th ed is published.
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: battle-sisters@yahoogroups.com [battle-sisters@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of andrewm9@... [andrewm9@...]
      > > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 3:04 PM
      > > To: battle-sisters@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [BTSS] Allies and points
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Ok so I have been doign some thinking(no jokes please). With the advent of Allies how can GW justify vast differences in point costs for units now? Before people claimed it was based on relative value to the army. Now with so many people able to take Allies from different codices how does a SM Captain or Librarian rate against Uriah or a Canoness? How about a Sanguinary Priest vs. a Ministorum Priest (IG) or Ecclesiarchy Priest (SoB). The Priests vary by 5 points and yet the Sanguinary Priest has +2 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, +1 T, +1 I, and +2 Ld along with a 6" bubble that can affect multiple units. He also has a better save at 3+ compared to the 4++ of the IG and SoB ones as well as better war gear access like a Bike, Jump Pack, or infernus pistol.
      > >
      > > There are surely other comparisons I can make, but I need not bore you with the details. Do any of you think that GW will retool the point costs for these scenarios? Given their past history I think not.
      > >
      > > Andrew
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • gordon nichols
      Well, it means our girls still have some use in the new addition, and maybe an uptick in sales. We ll have to see. My Vostroyans may yet have the chance to
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 1, 2012
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        Well, it means our girls still have some use in the new addition, and maybe an uptick in sales. We'll have to see. My Vostroyans may yet have the chance to muster with my Order of the Bloody Rose.

        --- On Sat, 6/30/12, cyberakuma@... <cyberakuma@...> wrote:


        From: cyberakuma@... <cyberakuma@...>
        Subject: Re: [BTSS] Allies and points
        To: battle-sisters@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, June 30, 2012, 7:40 PM



         



        http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2 6th edition sob faq and errata has been released on the gw website and it says that characters allied to sisters units or allied units joined by sisters characters are subject to the acts of faith this certainly makes sisters a better allied force for a lot of players besides the dirt cheap power armoured gun lines and cheap almost indestructible and over powered for her price living saint

        but they are allowing us to attach 5 preachers to 5 allied units without absorbing force organisation allotments and give those five units acts of faith let alone other characters joining them

        sure a sanguinary priest maybe only a few pointa more and a lot better in many peoples eyes but this errata basically lets any force allying with sisters of battle in a smallish game have acts of faith for virtually every unit for just 200+ points

        --- In battle-sisters@yahoogroups.com, <andrewm9@...> wrote:
        >
        > My thoughts are solely based on worth of points and how they balance amongst the various codices. The Sanguinary Priest is just an egregious example. Before when they availabel only in their own codices models' point costs can be jsutfiied basedon their relative value to the codex in question. Now that they can be taken in other codices the seemingly random point costing is more questionable. Space Wolves can easily take 3 sanguinary priests and they don't even need to join sqauds for them to be useful. No one is goign to take the Munitorum Priest which costs 5 points less becuase the Sanguinary Priest is way more bang for his buck so to speak.
        >
        > In any case the Sanguinary Priest amongst Sisters doesn't have to join a unit to be useful. In order to use them you could take 2 SP's and an 10 man assault squad combat squadded for ablative wounds for the two and spread out the Furious Charge and Feel no Pain. You could also take a cheap HQ like a captain for a little clsoe combat punch. I see a lot of magic cups in people's future.
        >
        > Andrew
        >
        > ---- Cho Kai <cho_kai@...> wrote:
        > > Well, first of all, they have greatly limited the Army combinations that can attach ICs across allied forces. They have to be 'Brothers at Arms' in order to do that and recieve those sorts of bonuses... thus no replacing SoB Priests with Sanguinary Priests. There may be other balance issues with stacking bonuses across the Codexes but we will have to see how that plays out once 6th ed is published.
        > >
        > > ________________________________
        > > From: battle-sisters@yahoogroups.com [battle-sisters@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of andrewm9@... [andrewm9@...]
        > > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 3:04 PM
        > > To: battle-sisters@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [BTSS] Allies and points
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Ok so I have been doign some thinking(no jokes please). With the advent of Allies how can GW justify vast differences in point costs for units now? Before people claimed it was based on relative value to the army. Now with so many people able to take Allies from different codices how does a SM Captain or Librarian rate against Uriah or a Canoness? How about a Sanguinary Priest vs. a Ministorum Priest (IG) or Ecclesiarchy Priest (SoB). The Priests vary by 5 points and yet the Sanguinary Priest has +2 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, +1 T, +1 I, and +2 Ld along with a 6" bubble that can affect multiple units. He also has a better save at 3+ compared to the 4++ of the IG and SoB ones as well as better war gear access like a Bike, Jump Pack, or infernus pistol.
        > >
        > > There are surely other comparisons I can make, but I need not bore you with the details. Do any of you think that GW will retool the point costs for these scenarios? Given their past history I think not.
        > >
        > > Andrew
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Andrew McGregor
        Those preachers do nothing for anybody really since they can only join IG squads. Those squads won t be getting any acts of faith as the Preacher has none to
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 1, 2012
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          Those preachers do nothing for anybody really since they can only join IG
          squads. Those squads won't be getting any acts of faith as the Preacher has
          none to use. The only IC with an actual Act of Faith is the Canoness. Only
          IG are Battle Brothers to Sisters, so they are the only army with any
          potential benefit and they already have their own Ministorum Priests that
          grant a similar benefit to the Ecclesiarchy Preacher. There just wouldn't be
          any point to you scenario unless you really want another plasma pistol or
          other odd ranged weapon. In fact the Ministorum Priest actually gets cheaper
          Eviscerators at only 15 points instead of 25 and IG can have as many Priests
          as they like since they don't take up a slot at all. The things that Sisters
          really need in this edition will be AA guns and aircraft and we can only get
          1 gun from fortifications it seems and 1 FA choice (so up to 3 flyers with
          IG) if we buy a HQ and 1 IG troop choice. People won't be allying with
          Sisters much as there isn't a lot to gain by it. Nobody can join the IC's
          with our units (unless they are IG) and they can't get into our transports
          at all (even IG).

          Dominions lost a great deal of mobility since Scout is not a move but a
          redeployment in you deployment zone and you cannot disembark after moving
          12" or more. On the plus side those Immolators can now fire after moving 12
          again. However our vehicles are easier to blow since AP1 adds +2 on the
          damage chart so all pens with melta or railguns result in an explosion on
          4+. Furthermore it's very easy to hit vehicles on the move in close combat
          since they are considered WS1 even after moving.

          It does seem we have a lot to gain by taking in IG allies though. We can
          plug some of the holes we have in our list and that means they won't be
          taking another look at the army for some time I imagine. This edition is a
          not altogether unexpected attempt to get people to expand their collection.
          As for me, I already have lot of the stuff they want us to buy like another
          army, fortifications, etc. so there isn't much for me to latch onto that's
          new. I've got 3 Valkyries, an Imperial strongpoint, a Skyshield landing
          platform, and a whole IG army to boot (150+ infantry and lots of tanks)
          which is around 4 to 5 thousand points easy without my Apocalypse stuff .

          Andrew


          -----Original Message-----
          From: battle-sisters@yahoogroups.com [mailto:battle-sisters@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of cyberakuma@...
          Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 7:40 PM
          To: battle-sisters@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [BTSS] Allies and points

          http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIn
          dex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2 6th edition sob faq and errata
          has been released on the gw website and it says that characters allied to
          sisters units or allied units joined by sisters characters are subject to
          the acts of faith this certainly makes sisters a better allied force for a
          lot of players besides the dirt cheap power armoured gun lines and cheap
          almost indestructible and over powered for her price living saint

          but they are allowing us to attach 5 preachers to 5 allied units without
          absorbing force organisation allotments and give those five units acts of
          faith let alone other characters joining them

          sure a sanguinary priest maybe only a few pointa more and a lot better in
          many peoples eyes but this errata basically lets any force allying with
          sisters of battle in a smallish game have acts of faith for virtually every
          unit for just 200+ points
        • cyberakuma@ymail.com
          My bad righteous rage isn t an act of faith but it will still apply to the allied units they join. I m still familiarising mysel the ins and out of the new
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 1, 2012
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            My bad righteous rage isn't an act of faith but it will still apply to the allied units they join. I'm still familiarising mysel the ins and out of the new rules and going by the errata there are some benefits to allies qnd acts of faith still but the ecclesiarchal preachers allowing re-rolls to hit in their assault for an allied unit they join isn't a bad thing even if ig preachers are restricted less and have cheaper eviscerators rather than relying on overwatch and bs1 it could make guardsmen a bit more prepared for counter assaults which will be needed whenunits with hammer of wrath come to break up their gunlines with a couple of squads of power armoured sisters as a secondary gun line behind the squishies that are counter assaulting and a range of heavy artillery behind them it makes for a thick layer of defence for two seperately shooty armies with very little in the way of assaulting trops maybe it's just me but that sounds more practical than a cheap eviscerator on a character that is likely to die before it gets to use it in any useful way

            my one concern with the rules of 6th for sisters whether they are allied or not is the two pistols one in the rule book any model with two pistol type weapons can fire both in the shooting phase with no mention of thembeing. Hindered from doing anything else in th other phases where as the seraphim pistols rule says they can fire no other weapon that turn. Do they now ignore this? Meaning with the hammer of wrath rule for jump troops make them an almost viable assault squad instead of just being a hit and run squad?

            --- In battle-sisters@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew McGregor" <andrewm9@...> wrote:
            >
            > Those preachers do nothing for anybody really since they can only join IG
            > squads. Those squads won't be getting any acts of faith as the Preacher has
            > none to use. The only IC with an actual Act of Faith is the Canoness. Only
            > IG are Battle Brothers to Sisters, so they are the only army with any
            > potential benefit and they already have their own Ministorum Priests that
            > grant a similar benefit to the Ecclesiarchy Preacher. There just wouldn't be
            > any point to you scenario unless you really want another plasma pistol or
            > other odd ranged weapon. In fact the Ministorum Priest actually gets cheaper
            > Eviscerators at only 15 points instead of 25 and IG can have as many Priests
            > as they like since they don't take up a slot at all. The things that Sisters
            > really need in this edition will be AA guns and aircraft and we can only get
            > 1 gun from fortifications it seems and 1 FA choice (so up to 3 flyers with
            > IG) if we buy a HQ and 1 IG troop choice. People won't be allying with
            > Sisters much as there isn't a lot to gain by it. Nobody can join the IC's
            > with our units (unless they are IG) and they can't get into our transports
            > at all (even IG).
            >
            > Dominions lost a great deal of mobility since Scout is not a move but a
            > redeployment in you deployment zone and you cannot disembark after moving
            > 12" or more. On the plus side those Immolators can now fire after moving 12
            > again. However our vehicles are easier to blow since AP1 adds +2 on the
            > damage chart so all pens with melta or railguns result in an explosion on
            > 4+. Furthermore it's very easy to hit vehicles on the move in close combat
            > since they are considered WS1 even after moving.
            >
            > It does seem we have a lot to gain by taking in IG allies though. We can
            > plug some of the holes we have in our list and that means they won't be
            > taking another look at the army for some time I imagine. This edition is a
            > not altogether unexpected attempt to get people to expand their collection.
            > As for me, I already have lot of the stuff they want us to buy like another
            > army, fortifications, etc. so there isn't much for me to latch onto that's
            > new. I've got 3 Valkyries, an Imperial strongpoint, a Skyshield landing
            > platform, and a whole IG army to boot (150+ infantry and lots of tanks)
            > which is around 4 to 5 thousand points easy without my Apocalypse stuff .
            >
            > Andrew
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: battle-sisters@yahoogroups.com [mailto:battle-sisters@yahoogroups.com]
            > On Behalf Of cyberakuma@...
            > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 7:40 PM
            > To: battle-sisters@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [BTSS] Allies and points
            >
            > http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIn
            > dex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2 6th edition sob faq and errata
            > has been released on the gw website and it says that characters allied to
            > sisters units or allied units joined by sisters characters are subject to
            > the acts of faith this certainly makes sisters a better allied force for a
            > lot of players besides the dirt cheap power armoured gun lines and cheap
            > almost indestructible and over powered for her price living saint
            >
            > but they are allowing us to attach 5 preachers to 5 allied units without
            > absorbing force organisation allotments and give those five units acts of
            > faith let alone other characters joining them
            >
            > sure a sanguinary priest maybe only a few pointa more and a lot better in
            > many peoples eyes but this errata basically lets any force allying with
            > sisters of battle in a smallish game have acts of faith for virtually every
            > unit for just 200+ points
            >
          • johnlay95
            ... Might want to clear this up a little only 2 Immolators can move 12 and still shoot, HB, MM, the HF still can not as this would be a snap fire shot and
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 2, 2012
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              >
              > Dominions lost a great deal of mobility since Scout is not a move but a
              > redeployment in you deployment zone and you cannot disembark after moving
              > 12" or more. On the plus side those Immolators can now fire after moving 12

              Might want to clear this up a little only 2 Immolators can move 12 and still shoot, HB, MM, the HF still can not as this would be a snap fire shot and blast, template weapons can not make snap fire shots.

              Also did not see where the scout rule limited the redeployment to only your deployment zone like it used to, will have to check that again.

              I believe you can not disembark after moving 6.1" or more if you look at the rule closer.

              Larger SOB unit with a Rhino as a LOS blocker might be an option now in the new rules. But not much else went our way.

              John
              > Andrew
              >
            • andrewm9@tampabay.rr.com
              I thought only blast weapons can t snap fire as you can snap fire against assaulting units getting 1d3 hits. I haven t had a chance to read my actual book much
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 2, 2012
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                I thought only blast weapons can't snap fire as you can snap fire against assaulting units getting 1d3 hits. I haven't had a chance to read my actual book much yet so perhaps some of my comments aren't as informed as I'd like. I preordered mine more than a week ago and haven't received it yet. Its listed as on time for Tuesday delivery. I shoudl; have just bought the regualr book, but no I wanted the Gamer's edition set. :)

                Sisters mobility definitely took a hit this edition it seems. I'm not sure how the army will hold objectives at all. Quite frankly I don't think many low toughness bad armor armies are going to hold objectives well since units in vehicles cannot hold objectives in many types of games.

                I'm thinking 20 Sister untis maybe the way to go with Rhinos as you say. We will need the bodies and additional firepower. IG allies will probably be a must in tournaments since we lack both AA and fliers both and they are in ready supply in that codex.



                ---- johnlay95 <john_lay@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Might want to clear this up a little only 2 Immolators can move 12 and still shoot, HB, MM, the HF still can not as this would be a snap fire shot and blast, template weapons can not make snap fire shots.
                >
                > Also did not see where the scout rule limited the redeployment to only your deployment zone like it used to, will have to check that again.
                >
                > I believe you can not disembark after moving 6.1" or more if you look at the rule closer.
                >
                > Larger SOB unit with a Rhino as a LOS blocker might be an option now in the new rules. But not much else went our way.
                >
                > John
                > > Andrew
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
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