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Re: [baseball-databank] Manager Omissions

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  • Paul Wendt
    On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Sean Lahman wrote: . . . ... I agree with the TB approach. The only question is *how many days* (or how many games) away from duties as
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 11, 2002
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      On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Sean Lahman wrote:
      . . .
      > The editors of TB decided that anybody managing for a period of
      > shorter than thirty days as an "unnamed" manager wouldn't be given
      > credit as the manager of record for that duty. It's just impossible
      > for anyone to objectively say that the "official" manager is not still
      > calling the shots, and it's debatable how much credit the interim guy
      > should receive even if his autonomy is verified.
      >
      > I'm open to some suggestions, here, but this is a messy area. We can
      > change our criteria, but it's not a matter of simply recording data
      > that is self-evident.

      I agree with the TB approach.

      The only question is *how many days* (or how many games) away from duties
      as field manager should sever the status of the Manager, in the record
      book, in favor of whoever fulfills those duties.

      In any particular case, this is a matter for historical research: what did
      Hugh Jennings do for the New York Giants in 1924? in 1925?

      But the encyclopedists need an answer in the absence of particular
      historical research, else it is impossible to present any season or career
      managerial record for Hugh Jennings, or for John McGraw.

      -- P/\/ \/\/t

      Paul Wendt, Watertown MA, USA <pgw@...>
      near Boston
    • truane@vnet.ibm.com
      I just wanted to point out that Retrosheet attempts to include any manager replacement, regardless of duration. So if a manager is suspended for two games,
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 12, 2002
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        I just wanted to point out that Retrosheet attempts to include any
        manager replacement, regardless of duration. So if a manager is
        suspended for two games, and we know who took his place in the interim,
        we show the replacement manager as in charge for those two games. Sean
        is correct that this data is incomplete for much of the games history,
        but that shouldn't preclude us from using the data when it is
        available.

        I'm not sure I agree with Sean's other point, that the absent manager
        is really calling the shots. We simply don't know this, just as we
        don't know if there is some arbitrary number of games (say, 30) after
        which the previous manager leaves his interim manager alone. It seems
        to be a better practice to attempt to record these absences and let
        other people decide for themselves if and when to ignore them.

        Tom Ruane
      • tom tom
        ... Again, we are talking about 2 separate things. Record the outcome, and interpret the outcome. You can easily write a program that looks for gaps in games
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 12, 2002
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          Paul said:
          > I agree with the TB approach.
          >
          > The only question is *how many days* (or how many
          > games) away from duties
          > as field manager should sever the status of the
          > Manager, in the record
          > book, in favor of whoever fulfills those duties.
          >

          Again, we are talking about 2 separate things. Record
          the outcome, and interpret the outcome.

          You can easily write a program that looks for gaps in
          games managed, and if that gap is less than or equal
          to 30, then count everything in that gap to the
          previous manager. Of course, this program will
          produce strange results in "known" managerial changes
          like the 61 Cubs.

          What you might want is to have a "signed manager"
          field and "acting manager" field. Basically, you have
          one manager recognized by the team (based on contract
          signed), and another manager recognized by the umpire.

          While this point is "so who cares" for most people,
          the important concept is to make distinctions between
          recording data, and interpreting it. This is just one
          application of it. I'm sure there are more important
          ones out there, like how to handle "errors".

          Thanks, Tom

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        • Sean Lahman
          ... But the point is that this data is not available. The official statistics do not record a manager of record for each game. Not historically, and not now.
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 12, 2002
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            tom tom wrote:
            >Again, we are talking about 2 separate things. Record
            >the outcome, and interpret the outcome.
            >
            >You can easily write a program that looks for gaps in
            >games managed, and if that gap is less than or equal
            >to 30, then count everything in that gap to the
            >previous manager.

            But the point is that this data is not available. The official statistics do
            not record a manager of record for each game. Not historically, and not now.
            What we can record are announcements by the team about managerial changes.
            If they name an interim manager, we reflect that. If there's no official
            designation, we don't impose our own assumptions.

            --S
          • tom tom
            ... Please remember that there are two official designations. One recognized by the team, and one by the umpire. I think Tom R said that Retrosheet shows the
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 12, 2002
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              --- Sean Lahman <slahman@...> wrote:
              > If they name an interim manager, we reflect that.
              > If there's no official
              > designation, we don't impose our own assumptions.
              >

              Please remember that there are two official
              designations. One recognized by the team, and one by
              the umpire. I think Tom R said that Retrosheet shows
              the manager recognized by the umpire (maybe I read
              that wrong??).

              In any case, this is why I said there are "two"
              managers for each game.

              I was more bothered by the 30-day rule and the rest of
              your post, which certainly looks to be an assumption
              as to who is really the manager.

              Thanks, Tom

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            • Sean Lahman
              ... Maybe Tom Ruane can clarify, then. If the Retrosheet data lists a manager for each game, where are they getting that data from? It s not from the
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 12, 2002
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                tom tom wrote:
                > Please remember that there are two official
                > designations. One recognized by the team, and one by
                > the umpire. I think Tom R said that Retrosheet shows
                > the manager recognized by the umpire (maybe I read
                > that wrong??).

                Maybe Tom Ruane can clarify, then. If the Retrosheet data lists a manager
                for each game, where are they getting that data from? It's not from the
                scoresheets or the day-by-days. I can only presume this is some sort of
                reverse engineering, added the name of the manager based on a retrospective
                identification. Am I missing something?

                --SL
              • Paul Wendt
                ... Here is a famous example, copied from the retrosheet website, but it is a long string included in the records kept by any others:
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 12, 2002
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                  12 Jun 2002 truane@... wrote:

                  > I just wanted to point out that Retrosheet attempts to include any
                  > manager replacement, regardless of duration. So if a manager is
                  > suspended for two games, and we know who took his place in the interim,
                  > we show the replacement manager as in charge for those two games.

                  Here is a famous example, copied from the retrosheet website, but it is a
                  long string included in the records kept by any others:

                  http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/TNY11924.htm

                  Manager G W L RS RA First Last
                  John McGraw 29 16 13 148 119 4-15-1924 5-20-1924
                  Hughie Jennings 44 32 12 238 163 5-21-1924 7- 6-1924(2)
                  John McGraw 81 45 35 471 359 7- 8-1924 9-28-1924

                  That one is not derived from the retro-scoring work by Retrosheet.

                  Tom R,

                  Do you know an example that is both short (under the horizon for TB and
                  probably other reference works) and derived from retro-scoring?

                  > It seems to be a better practice to attempt to record these absences
                  > and let other people decide for themselves if and when to ignore them.

                  [tentatively] Yes.

                  My voice is tentative because I haven't done any retro-scoring myself, to
                  support the particular example that follows, but I believe that there must
                  be some interpretation in the record.

                  When a game is retro-scored, I suspect, the scorer might make the manager
                  "John McGraw", without differentiation, whether that is "John McGraw,
                  presumed"; "John McGraw, reported"; or "John McGraw, verified [how?]".

                  If not for the manager, then for the attendance.
                  The code must be limited in its refinement.


                  -- P/\/ \/\/t

                  Paul Wendt, Watertown MA, USA <pgw@...>
                  near Boston
                • truane@vnet.ibm.com
                  ... The key word in my sentence was attempts . Despite the fact that there is no official manager of record for each game, few managerial absences escape
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 13, 2002
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                    I had written:

                    > I just wanted to point out that Retrosheet attempts to include any
                    > manager replacement, regardless of duration.

                    And Sean Lahman wrote:

                    > But the point is that this data is not available. The official statistics do
                    > not record a manager of record for each game. Not historically, and not now.
                    > What we can record are announcements by the team about managerial changes.
                    > If they name an interim manager, we reflect that. If there's no official
                    > designation, we don't impose our own assumptions.

                    The key word in my sentence was "attempts". Despite the fact that there
                    is no "official" manager of record for each game, few managerial
                    absences escape notice in newspapers or scoresheets. The most frequent
                    reason for these is a suspension of some sort and, while up until now
                    we have been collecting these from sources like Baseball Weekly and The
                    Sporting News, perhaps the league offices keep a more thorough record
                    of these.

                    Tom Ruane
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