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Re: Houston teamID

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  • KJOK
    I don t see a good reason to change the TeamID as it s still the same Houston Astros team. We have a LeagueID that will handle the change from NL to AL.
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 2, 2013
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      I don't see a good reason to change the TeamID as it's still the same Houston Astros team. We have a LeagueID that will handle the change from NL to AL.

      However, as Dan noted the TeamID for the Brewers did change when that team changed leagues, so if it has to change based on the past I would think we should NOT change "HOU" for previous seasons but have a new teamID such as "HOA" (for Houston AL or Houston Astros).

      THANKS,
      Kevin

      --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "railsplitter_44" <danielghirsch@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello,
      >
      > I'm preparing my personal database for the upcoming season and I like to keep team/franch ID's the same as the databank's. Is there a plan for Houston's teamID, now that they are in the AL?
      >
      > When the Brewers changed leagues in 1998, they went from "ML4" to "MIL", but kept their franchID.
      >
      > If it were to change, I would think we'd want to keep "HOU" as the current teamID and make the NL version "HO1" or "HON".
      >
      > Sorry if this has already been discussed.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Dan Hirsch
      >
    • Tangotiger
      The change for Brewers was a bad idea. We don t need to perpetuate bad ideas. Imagine the NHL, which moves teams in and out of conferences every ten years,
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 2, 2013
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        The change for Brewers was a bad idea. We don't need to perpetuate bad
        ideas. Imagine the NHL, which moves teams in and out of conferences every
        ten years, changing their team IDs when a team changes conferences.

        And same thing for Anaheim/California, changing their city name without
        actually relocating. Don't teams in Japan change their "city" name
        because those are actual sponsored names?

        And, we don't change player IDs when their names change (Belle, Carmona,
        etc).

        Don't change the key unless it's critical to do so. The PURPOSE of a key
        is to uniquely identify something. If you want to identify something
        specific about the 2013 Astros, they you reference TWO fields: teamId and
        yearID.

        Tom
      • Michael Westbay
        Handling name changes (or conference changes) in a database is tricky. One still wants the older name (or conference) to come up when querying past seasons. I
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 2, 2013
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          Handling name changes (or conference changes) in a database is tricky.  One still wants the older name (or conference) to come up when querying past seasons.

          I deal with this by using and XML database that has a default name when querying without a date and aliases with a date range for querying with a specified date.

          The same goes with players.  One doesn't want to change a player's ID when his name changes.  But one may want to extract a different name depending on the season.

          The biggest issue is with dealing with all the applications that access the database.  If every web application out there that uses the Baseball Databank is reliant on a single league field for a given team, then changing every one of those web applications to properly place a person -> team -> league join for past seasons is going to be a mammoth undertaking.

          --
          Michael Westbay
          Writer/System Administrator
          http://www.japanesebaseball.com/
        • Tangotiger
          I agree about using the year (or date) to extract time-based data. Sometimes you want Fausto Carmona to show, and sometimes you want Roberto Hernandez to show,
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 2, 2013
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            I agree about using the year (or date) to extract time-based data.
            Sometimes you want Fausto Carmona to show, and sometimes you want Roberto
            Hernandez to show, and sometimes you want both. But at all times, it's on
            carmofa01's page.

            To change Houston Astros' ID from 2013-onwards, because their main
            competition has changed, even if the majority of their own players have
            not, and they are still playing in the same city and the same park.... uh,
            no. Even if they were relegated to AAA, I wouldn't change it, and I'm
            sure I wouldn't change it in the soccer leagues either. Imagine a team
            relegated/promoted having to change their names each time?

            Tom



            > Handling name changes (or conference changes) in a database is tricky.
            > One
            > still wants the older name (or conference) to come up when querying past
            > seasons.
            >
            > I deal with this by using and XML database that has a default name when
            > querying without a date and aliases with a date range for querying with a
            > specified date.
            >
            > The same goes with players. One doesn't want to change a player's ID when
            > his name changes. But one may want to extract a different name depending
            > on the season.
            >
            > The biggest issue is with dealing with all the applications that access
            > the
            > database. If every web application out there that uses the Baseball
            > Databank is reliant on a single league field for a given team, then
            > changing every one of those web applications to properly place a person ->
            > team -> league join for past seasons is going to be a mammoth undertaking.
            >
            > --
            > Michael Westbay
            > Writer/System Administrator
            > http://www.japanesebaseball.com/
            >


            ---------------------------------------------
            The Book--Playing The Percentages In Baseball
            http://www.InsideTheBook.com
          • Michael Westbay
            I agree. I wouldn t want to change it either. This is just a potential use case where it might be considered. 2013/4/3 Tangotiger ... --
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 2, 2013
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              I agree.  I wouldn't want to change it either.

              This is just a potential use case where it might be considered.


              2013/4/3 Tangotiger <tom@...>
               

              I agree about using the year (or date) to extract time-based data.
              Sometimes you want Fausto Carmona to show, and sometimes you want Roberto
              Hernandez to show, and sometimes you want both. But at all times, it's on
              carmofa01's page.

              To change Houston Astros' ID from 2013-onwards, because their main
              competition has changed, even if the majority of their own players have
              not, and they are still playing in the same city and the same park.... uh,
              no. Even if they were relegated to AAA, I wouldn't change it, and I'm
              sure I wouldn't change it in the soccer leagues either. Imagine a team
              relegated/promoted having to change their names each time?

              Tom



              > Handling name changes (or conference changes) in a database is tricky.
              > One
              > still wants the older name (or conference) to come up when querying past
              > seasons.
              >
              > I deal with this by using and XML database that has a default name when
              > querying without a date and aliases with a date range for querying with a
              > specified date.
              >
              > The same goes with players. One doesn't want to change a player's ID when
              > his name changes. But one may want to extract a different name depending
              > on the season.
              >
              > The biggest issue is with dealing with all the applications that access
              > the
              > database. If every web application out there that uses the Baseball
              > Databank is reliant on a single league field for a given team, then
              > changing every one of those web applications to properly place a person ->
              > team -> league join for past seasons is going to be a mammoth undertaking.
              >
              > --
              > Michael Westbay
              > Writer/System Administrator
              > http://www.japanesebaseball.com/
              >

              ---------------------------------------------
              The Book--Playing The Percentages In Baseball
              http://www.InsideTheBook.com




              --
              Michael Westbay
              Writer/System Administrator
              http://www.japanesebaseball.com/
            • Chris Lambrou
              I would think the only time a teamID should ever change would be when there is change to the actual team name (location and/or nickname). Although one could
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 2, 2013
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                I would think the only time a teamID should ever change would be when there is change to the actual team name (location and/or nickname).
                Although one could argue that there is a team name field right there in every team record.

                In my mind a change of stadium, division, league nor a change of ownership would suffice a teamID change.  

                It looks like the DB is setup like this now and it also triggers a franchiseID change along with it.


                From: Michael Westbay <westbaystars@...>
                To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 8:15 PM
                Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Re: Houston teamID

                 
                I agree.  I wouldn't want to change it either.

                This is just a potential use case where it might be considered.


                2013/4/3 Tangotiger <tom@...>
                 
                I agree about using the year (or date) to extract time-based data.
                Sometimes you want Fausto Carmona to show, and sometimes you want Roberto
                Hernandez to show, and sometimes you want both. But at all times, it's on
                carmofa01's page.

                To change Houston Astros' ID from 2013-onwards, because their main
                competition has changed, even if the majority of their own players have
                not, and they are still playing in the same city and the same park.... uh,
                no. Even if they were relegated to AAA, I wouldn't change it, and I'm
                sure I wouldn't change it in the soccer leagues either. Imagine a team
                relegated/promoted having to change their names each time?

                Tom


                > Handling name changes (or conference changes) in a database is tricky.
                > One
                > still wants the older name (or conference) to come up when querying past
                > seasons.
                >
                > I deal with this by using and XML database that has a default name when
                > querying without a date and aliases with a date range for querying with a
                > specified date.
                >
                > The same goes with players. One doesn't want to change a player's ID when
                > his name changes. But one may want to extract a different name depending
                > on the season.
                >
                > The biggest issue is with dealing with all the applications that access
                > the
                > database. If every web application out there that uses the Baseball
                > Databank is reliant on a single league field for a given team, then
                > changing every one of those web applications to properly place a person ->
                > team -> league join for past seasons is going to be a mammoth undertaking.
                >
                > --
                > Michael Westbay
                > Writer/System Administrator
                > http://www.japanesebaseball.com/
                >

                ---------------------------------------------
                The Book--Playing The Percentages In Baseball
                http://www.InsideTheBook.com




                --
                Michael Westbay
                Writer/System Administrator
                http://www.japanesebaseball.com/


              • robert bluestein
                i agree, michael is right. No to the change. ... From: Michael Westbay Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Re: Houston teamID
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 2, 2013
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                  i agree, michael is right. No to the change.

                  --- On Tue, 4/2/13, Michael Westbay <westbaystars@...> wrote:

                  From: Michael Westbay <westbaystars@...>
                  Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Re: Houston teamID
                  To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, April 2, 2013, 8:15 PM

                   

                  I agree.  I wouldn't want to change it either.

                  This is just a potential use case where it might be considered.


                  2013/4/3 Tangotiger <tom@...>
                   

                  I agree about using the year (or date) to extract time-based data.
                  Sometimes you want Fausto Carmona to show, and sometimes you want Roberto
                  Hernandez to show, and sometimes you want both. But at all times, it's on
                  carmofa01's page.

                  To change Houston Astros' ID from 2013-onwards, because their main
                  competition has changed, even if the majority of their own players have
                  not, and they are still playing in the same city and the same park.... uh,
                  no. Even if they were relegated to AAA, I wouldn't change it, and I'm
                  sure I wouldn't change it in the soccer leagues either. Imagine a team
                  relegated/promoted having to change their names each time?

                  Tom



                  > Handling name changes (or conference changes) in a database is tricky.
                  > One
                  > still wants the older name (or conference) to come up when querying past
                  > seasons.
                  >
                  > I deal with this by using and XML database that has a default name when
                  > querying without a date and aliases with a date range for querying with a
                  > specified date.
                  >
                  > The same goes with players. One doesn't want to change a player's ID when
                  > his name changes. But one may want to extract a different name depending
                  > on the season.
                  >
                  > The biggest issue is with dealing with all the applications that access
                  > the
                  > database. If every web application out there that uses the Baseball
                  > Databank is reliant on a single league field for a given team, then
                  > changing every one of those web applications to properly place a person ->
                  > team -> league join for past seasons is going to be a mammoth undertaking.
                  >
                  > --
                  > Michael Westbay
                  > Writer/System Administrator
                  > http://www.japanesebaseball.com/
                  >

                  ---------------------------------------------
                  The Book--Playing The Percentages In Baseball
                  http://www.InsideTheBook.com




                  --
                  Michael Westbay
                  Writer/System Administrator
                  http://www.japanesebaseball.com/
                • Clay Dreslough
                  This. :) Clay
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 3, 2013
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                    This. :)

                    Clay

                    On 4/2/2013 9:10 PM, Tangotiger wrote:
                    > To change Houston Astros' ID from 2013-onwards, because their main
                    > competition has changed, even if the majority of their own players have
                    > not, and they are still playing in the same city and the same park.... uh,
                    > no. Even if they were relegated to AAA, I wouldn't change it, and I'm
                    > sure I wouldn't change it in the soccer leagues either. Imagine a team
                    > relegated/promoted having to change their names each time?
                    >
                    > Tom
                  • Tangotiger
                    ... Are you suggesting that when the Tampa Bay Devil Rays became the Tampa Bay Rays, that you would change their teamID? Mighty Ducks to Ducks? Anaheim
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 3, 2013
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                      > I would think the only time a teamID should ever change would be when
                      > there is change to the actual team name (location and/or nickname).

                      Are you suggesting that when the Tampa Bay Devil Rays became the Tampa Bay
                      Rays, that you would change their teamID? Mighty Ducks to Ducks? Anaheim
                      Angels to LA Angels (of Anaheim)?

                      In my view, it would not only be a change of location, but a location
                      outside of the "metro area". Mets, Yankees, etc... they changed
                      "locations". If that's too semantical, then: the Jets go from NY to NJ, I
                      still wouldn't change the Jets' teamID, or Nets going from NJ to Brooklyn,
                      or Islanders moving to Brooklyn. NY/NJ is all part of the same metro
                      area.

                      Brooklyn to LA, then yes, change in teamID. We have the franchID to
                      establish continuity for Dodgers, if needed.

                      Change in levels/leagues/conferences/divisions? There's about twenty
                      other things that are better considerations for changing a teamID than
                      that, and eighteen of those are crappy reasons.

                      Tom
                    • Sean Lahman
                      I agree with Tom on this one. The TeamID should never change. We can capture all other information in the Teams or Franchise tables (although in practice,
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 3, 2013
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                        I agree with Tom on this one.  The TeamID should never change.  We can capture all other information in the Teams or Franchise tables (although in practice, many people simply don't use these tables).

                        Regards,
                        Sean



                        ---
                        Sean Lahman
                        http://seanlahman.com


                        On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Tangotiger <tom@...> wrote:
                         

                        > I would think the only time a teamID should ever change would be when
                        > there is change to the actual team name (location and/or nickname).

                        Are you suggesting that when the Tampa Bay Devil Rays became the Tampa Bay
                        Rays, that you would change their teamID? Mighty Ducks to Ducks? Anaheim
                        Angels to LA Angels (of Anaheim)?

                        In my view, it would not only be a change of location, but a location
                        outside of the "metro area". Mets, Yankees, etc... they changed
                        "locations". If that's too semantical, then: the Jets go from NY to NJ, I
                        still wouldn't change the Jets' teamID, or Nets going from NJ to Brooklyn,
                        or Islanders moving to Brooklyn. NY/NJ is all part of the same metro
                        area.

                        Brooklyn to LA, then yes, change in teamID. We have the franchID to
                        establish continuity for Dodgers, if needed.

                        Change in levels/leagues/conferences/divisions? There's about twenty
                        other things that are better considerations for changing a teamID than
                        that, and eighteen of those are crappy reasons.

                        Tom


                      • Chris Lambrou
                        ...   Sorry but I d say Y to each of these and any location change that warranted a change to the official team name. Let s say my Cubbies move to Rosemont,
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 3, 2013
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                          >Are you suggesting that when the Tampa Bay Devil Rays became the Tampa Bay
                          >Rays, that you would change their teamID? Mighty Ducks to Ducks? Anaheim
                          >Angels to LA Angels (of Anaheim)?
                           
                          Sorry
                          but I'd say Y to each of these and any location change that warranted a change to the official team name.

                          Let's say my Cubbies move to Rosemont, IL.  The team may opt to keep the Chicago location name (wonder what MLB rules govern this).  
                          Either way, if they keep Chicago then there hasn't been a change to the team just the location of home games. 
                          If they somehow, God forbid, become the "Rosemont Cubs" - a change has occurred and the teamID should reflect it and the franchID should also be updated.

                          I wonder if one day we will ever see pro-teams ditch the municipality naming tie-in.   Let's say "Midwest Brewers" or "Northeast Red Sox".  Most likely if there was ever a change it would have a corporate tie-in like "Charmin White Sox" or "Coca-cola Yankees".  
                          Wow that would suck.

                          -Chris



                          From: Tangotiger <tom@...>
                          To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 9:20 AM
                          Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Re: Houston teamID

                           
                          > I would think the only time a teamID should ever change would be when
                          > there is change to the actual team name (location and/or nickname).

                          Are you suggesting that when the Tampa Bay Devil Rays became the Tampa Bay
                          Rays, that you would change their teamID? Mighty Ducks to Ducks? Anaheim
                          Angels to LA Angels (of Anaheim)?

                          In my view, it would not only be a change of location, but a location
                          outside of the "metro area". Mets, Yankees, etc... they changed
                          "locations". If that's too semantical, then: the Jets go from NY to NJ, I
                          still wouldn't change the Jets' teamID, or Nets going from NJ to Brooklyn,
                          or Islanders moving to Brooklyn. NY/NJ is all part of the same metro
                          area.

                          Brooklyn to LA, then yes, change in teamID. We have the franchID to
                          establish continuity for Dodgers, if needed.

                          Change in levels/leagues/conferences/divisions? There's about twenty
                          other things that are better considerations for changing a teamID than
                          that, and eighteen of those are crappy reasons.

                          Tom



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