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Re: [baseball-databank] Stat question ('Game Started')

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  • swprod@sonic.net
    I don t see any reason to question whether ANY player who is scratched before a game begins would or should be credited in any way with being in the game.
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 5, 2010
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      I don't see any reason to question whether ANY player who is scratched
      before a game begins would or should be credited in any way with being in
      the game. That's probably why it's not explicitly discussed in the rules.

      Jim

      > Clay,
      >   I downloaded the official baseball rulebook, and the closest thing I
      > could
      > find was a comment within rule 10.20, which I have copied and pasted
      > below.  I'm
      > assuming here that pitching is a "defensive" statistic, but I interpret
      > this to
      > mean that if he doesn't throw a single pitch, he doesn't get credit for
      > having
      > started that game.
      >
      > Tim
      >
    • Mike Emeigh
      ... Except that it IS explicitly discussed in rule 10.20. -- Mike Emeigh MWE55inNC@gmail.com ManagementSpeak: Phase II. Translation: Never. -- Bob Lewis
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 5, 2010
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        On 11/5/2010 12:03 PM, swprod@... wrote:
        > I don't see any reason to question whether ANY player who is scratched
        > before a game begins would or should be credited in any way with being in
        > the game. That's probably why it's not explicitly discussed in the rules.

        Except that it IS explicitly discussed in rule 10.20.
        --
        Mike Emeigh
        MWE55inNC@...

        "ManagementSpeak: Phase II. Translation: Never." -- Bob Lewis
      • Tangotiger
        ... There might good reasons for that. For one, I presume that any pitcher scratched due to injury prior to pitching will not be available that game even if
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 5, 2010
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          > I don't see any reason to question whether ANY player who is scratched
          > before a game begins would or should be credited in any way with being in
          > the game. That's probably why it's not explicitly discussed in the rules.
          >
          > Jim

          There might good reasons for that. For one, I presume that any pitcher
          scratched due to injury prior to pitching will not be available that game
          even if he's "cured" during the game. There are other situations where a
          player is announced into the game, and doesn't play and is not eligible to
          play that game.

          How all that is handled "officially" is, well, it's not right or wrong.
          It's just official.

          Ideally, we would record such games accurately, and create the necessary
          categories to capture those games. You could have a category called
          "ineligible to play". But, there's no such official category, so, there's
          sometimes square pegs / round holes that happens.

          There's no official "reached on error" category, so a few of us make up
          our own definition. "Batting average on balls in play" (BABIP) is not
          official either, and for those of us who track it, we include SF in the
          denominator, and some of us include reaching on error in the numerator.

          If David Palmer pitches a 5-inning perfect game, MLB at one time
          considered it a perfect game, and now does not. And who knows, maybe
          they'll change their mind.

          All to say: while it's nice to be able to report the numbers by the
          official definitions, we are not beholden to the whims of MLB scoring
          committee to do so.

          Tom
        • swprod@sonic.net
          ... I don t see it - nothing about a pre-game scratch, just about a game being called. Rule 10.20 Comment: The official scorer shall credit a player with
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 5, 2010
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            > On 11/5/2010 12:03 PM, swprod@... wrote:
            >> I don't see any reason to question whether ANY player who is scratched
            >> before a game begins would or should be credited in any way with being
            >> in the game. That's probably why it's not explicitly discussed in the
            >> rules.
            >
            > Except that it IS explicitly discussed in rule 10.20.
            > --
            > Mike Emeigh

            I don't see it - nothing about a pre-game scratch, just about a game being
            called.

            Rule 10.20 Comment: The official scorer shall credit a player with having
            played on defense if such player is on the field for at least one pitch or
            play. If a game is called (for example, because of rain) after a
            substitute player enters the field but before a pitch is thrown or a play
            is made, the official scorer shall credit such player with a game played
            in the batting statistics but shall not credit such player in any
            defensive statistics. If a game is called (for example, because of rain)
            after a relief pitcher enters the field but before a pitch is thrown or a
            play is made, the official scorer shall credit such pitcher with a game
            played in the batting statistics but shall not credit such pitcher in any
            defensive statistics or with a game pitched.


            > MWE55inNC@...
            >
            > "ManagementSpeak: Phase II. Translation: Never." -- Bob Lewis
            >
          • robert bluestein
            Jim, Lou Gehrig had to play in the games during his streak. One series of games he had Lumbago and he was slated to bat leadoff for the Yankees (they were the
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 5, 2010
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              Jim, 
              Lou Gehrig had to play in the games during his streak. One series of games he had Lumbago and he was slated to bat leadoff for the Yankees (they were the visiting team) and then he took the field for one recorded out before coming out of the game. As I understand it, a player who is scratched from the lineup before he even steps foot on the diamond cannot be credited for being in the game.
              Rob


              From: Tangotiger <tom@...>
              To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 12:36:10 PM
              Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Stat question ('Game Started')

               

              > I don't see any reason to question whether ANY player who is scratched
              > before a game begins would or should be credited in any way with being in
              > the game. That's probably why it's not explicitly discussed in the rules.
              >
              > Jim

              There might good reasons for that. For one, I presume that any pitcher
              scratched due to injury prior to pitching will not be available that game
              even if he's "cured" during the game. There are other situations where a
              player is announced into the game, and doesn't play and is not eligible to
              play that game.

              How all that is handled "officially" is, well, it's not right or wrong.
              It's just official.

              Ideally, we would record such games accurately, and create the necessary
              categories to capture those games. You could have a category called
              "ineligible to play". But, there's no such official category, so, there's
              sometimes square pegs / round holes that happens.

              There's no official "reached on error" category, so a few of us make up
              our own definition. "Batting average on balls in play" (BABIP) is not
              official either, and for those of us who track it, we include SF in the
              denominator, and some of us include reaching on error in the numerator.

              If David Palmer pitches a 5-inning perfect game, MLB at one time
              considered it a perfect game, and now does not. And who knows, maybe
              they'll change their mind.

              All to say: while it's nice to be able to report the numbers by the
              official definitions, we are not beholden to the whims of MLB scoring
              committee to do so.

              Tom


            • Clem Comly
              It is important to note that this rule was not in place throughout the history of baseball. Dave Smith and I call these Chisms in honor of the first guy who
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 5, 2010
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                It is important to note that this rule was not in place throughout the history of baseball.   Dave Smith and I call these Chisms in honor of the first guy who caused Retrosheet problems.  Left-handed thrower Tom Chism was listed by Earl Weaver once as the starting C for a road game towards the top of the lineup.  A defensive sub took his  place in home first so per this rule he does not appear officially as a C.  Another time Weaver did this with Chism but listed him at SS.
                 
                One example before the rule change was left-handed Chris Short listed as starting catcher on 6/29/1961 game 1.  One can see Short today with 1 game at C.  In this same game two other pitchers, Owens and Ferrase "played" OF for only time in their major league careers. Unlike most Chisms, Short was playing for the home team. The 3 pitchers had recently pitched so wouldn't have played that day but were listed on the lineup card because manager Gene Mauch couldnt find out if the visiting Giants were starting a LHP or a RHP.  LHP O'Dell started as Mauch found out when the lineup cards were exchanged, so RHB Coker took field for Short at C in top of first.  Del Greco and Bobby Smith, both RHBs, manned the two OF positions. In home first, Del Greco led off and singled of O'Dell.  Giamnts' manager Al Dark then brought in RHP Sam Jones.  LHB Tony Gonzalez pinch hit for Smith.  Later in first, LHB Clay Dalrymple pinch hit for Coker as Phiilies scored 4 runs in first.  Jones went on to pitch 5 more innings. Giants won in 10 innings, 8-7. 
                 
                The most famous Chism is Lou Gehrig who was in starting lineup for road game as the SS.  He batted and was replaced but officially has 1 game at SS.  Tonly Oliva "started". at 2B 4 times on the road in his career after the rule change.
                 
                For those deriving fielding stats from Retrosheet event files, Chisms are a pain in the rear.  But they also have to worry about "Cuylers".  These are defensive subs announced before the game ended precipitously (such as rain) before they actually took the field.  Such players are not credited with a defensive game, only a batting game.  It wasn't Kiki, it was Milt Cuyler who was the first Retrosheet had to deal with.
                 
                Clem Comly
                 .
              • Mike Emeigh
                ... You re looking at the comment, not the cite in the body of the rule: When a player listed in the starting lineup is substituted for before he plays on
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 7, 2010
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                  On 11/5/2010 2:40 PM, swprod@... wrote:
                  > > On 11/5/2010 12:03 PM, swprod@... <mailto:swprod%40sonic.net>
                  > wrote:
                  > >> I don't see any reason to question whether ANY player who is scratched
                  > >> before a game begins would or should be credited in any way with being
                  > >> in the game. That's probably why it's not explicitly discussed in the
                  > >> rules.
                  > >
                  > > Except that it IS explicitly discussed in rule 10.20.
                  > > --
                  > > Mike Emeigh
                  >
                  > I don't see it - nothing about a pre-game scratch, just about a game being
                  > called.
                  >
                  > Rule 10.20 Comment: The official scorer shall credit a player with having
                  > played on defense if such player is on the field for at least one pitch or
                  > play. If a game is called (for example, because of rain) after a
                  > substitute player enters the field but before a pitch is thrown or a play
                  > is made, the official scorer shall credit such player with a game played
                  > in the batting statistics but shall not credit such player in any
                  > defensive statistics. If a game is called (for example, because of rain)
                  > after a relief pitcher enters the field but before a pitch is thrown or a
                  > play is made, the official scorer shall credit such pitcher with a game
                  > played in the batting statistics but shall not credit such pitcher in any
                  > defensive statistics or with a game pitched.
                  >

                  You're looking at the comment, not the cite in the body of the rule:

                  When a player listed in the starting lineup is substituted for before he
                  plays on defense, he shall not receive credit in the defensive
                  statistics (fielding) unless he actually plays that position during the
                  game. All such players, however, shall be credited with one game played
                  (in batting statistics) so long as they are announced into the game or
                  listed on the official lineup card.
                  --
                  Mike Emeigh
                  MWE55inNC@...

                  "ManagementSpeak: Phase II. Translation: Never." -- Bob Lewis
                • Clem Comly
                  Under current rules, he can get a game but it snaps his consecutive game played streak. In other words, all games are not created equal. See 10.23 (c) in
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 7, 2010
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                    Under current rules, he can get a game but it snaps his consecutive game played streak.  In other words, all games are not created equal.
                     
                    See 10.23 (c) in Official Rules:

                    CONSECUTIVE-GAME PLAYING STREAK. A consecutive-game playing streak shall be extended if a player plays one half-inning on defense or if the player completes a time at bat by reaching base or being put out. A pinch-running appearance only shall not extend the streak. If a player is ejected from a game by an umpire before such player can comply with the requirements of this Rule 10.23(c), such player’s streak shall continue.

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 2:08 PM
                    Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Stat question ('Game Started')

                     Jim, 
                    Lou Gehrig had to play in the games during his streak. One series of games he had Lumbago and he was slated to bat leadoff for the Yankees (they were the visiting team) and then he took the field for one recorded out before coming out of the game. As I understand it, a player who is scratched from the lineup before he even steps foot on the diamond cannot be credited for being in the game.
                    Rob


                     

                  • swprod@sonic.net
                    I wonder if Gehrig ever got thrown out of a game while exchanging lineup cards...
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 8, 2010
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                      I wonder if Gehrig ever got thrown out of a game while exchanging lineup
                      cards...

                      > Under current rules, he can get a game but it snaps his consecutive game
                      > played streak. In other words, all games are not created equal.
                      >
                      > See 10.23 (c) in Official Rules:
                      > CONSECUTIVE-GAME PLAYING STREAK. A consecutive-game playing streak shall
                      > be extended if a player plays one half-inning on defense or if the player
                      > completes a time at bat by reaching base or being put out. A pinch-running
                      > appearance only shall not extend the streak. If a player is ejected from a
                      > game by an umpire before such player can comply with the requirements of
                      > this Rule 10.23(c), such player’s streak shall continue.
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: robert bluestein
                      > To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 2:08 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Stat question ('Game Started')
                      >
                      >
                      > Jim,
                      > Lou Gehrig had to play in the games during his streak. One series of
                      > games he had Lumbago and he was slated to bat leadoff for the Yankees
                      > (they were the visiting team) and then he took the field for one
                      > recorded out before coming out of the game. As I understand it, a player
                      > who is scratched from the lineup before he even steps foot on the
                      > diamond cannot be credited for being in the game.
                      > Rob
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • lukegofannon
                      Not sure if this is a related event in the Gehrig streak. Mentioned on pp. 64-65 of William C. Kashatus s biography of Gehrig: on July 14, 1934, Gehrig was
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 8, 2010
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                        Not sure if this is a related event in the Gehrig streak.

                        Mentioned on pp. 64-65 of William C. Kashatus's biography of Gehrig:
                        on July 14, 1934, Gehrig was suffering from a sore back that made it
                        impossible for him to play the field. He asked the manager to insert
                        him in the leadoff spot, so he could bat, leave the game, and keep his
                        playing streak alive. He got a hit (top of the first) and was lifted
                        for a pinch runner, so he never really played shortstop in the game.

                        Apparently, this earned Gehrig some bad press for placing so much
                        importance on keeping his streak alive.




                        --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, robert bluestein
                        <robertbluesteinphotography@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Jim,
                        > Lou Gehrig had to play in the games during his streak. One series of
                        games he
                        > had Lumbago and he was slated to bat leadoff for the Yankees (they
                        were the
                        > visiting team) and then he took the field for one recorded out before
                        coming out
                        > of the game. As I understand it, a player who is scratched from the
                        lineup
                        > before he even steps foot on the diamond cannot be credited for being
                        in the
                        > game.
                        > Rob
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: Tangotiger tom@...
                        > To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 12:36:10 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Stat question ('Game Started')
                        >
                        >
                        > > I don't see any reason to question whether ANY player who is
                        scratched
                        > > before a game begins would or should be credited in any way with
                        being in
                        > > the game. That's probably why it's not explicitly discussed in the
                        rules.
                        > >
                        > > Jim
                        >
                        > There might good reasons for that. For one, I presume that any
                        pitcher
                        > scratched due to injury prior to pitching will not be available that
                        game
                        > even if he's "cured" during the game. There are other situations
                        where a
                        > player is announced into the game, and doesn't play and is not
                        eligible to
                        > play that game.
                        >
                        > How all that is handled "officially" is, well, it's not right or
                        wrong.
                        > It's just official.
                        >
                        > Ideally, we would record such games accurately, and create the
                        necessary
                        > categories to capture those games. You could have a category called
                        > "ineligible to play". But, there's no such official category, so,
                        there's
                        > sometimes square pegs / round holes that happens.
                        >
                        > There's no official "reached on error" category, so a few of us make
                        up
                        > our own definition. "Batting average on balls in play" (BABIP) is not
                        > official either, and for those of us who track it, we include SF in
                        the
                        > denominator, and some of us include reaching on error in the
                        numerator.
                        >
                        > If David Palmer pitches a 5-inning perfect game, MLB at one time
                        > considered it a perfect game, and now does not. And who knows, maybe
                        > they'll change their mind.
                        >
                        > All to say: while it's nice to be able to report the numbers by the
                        > official definitions, we are not beholden to the whims of MLB scoring
                        > committee to do so.
                        >
                        > Tom
                        >
                      • robert bluestein
                        Interesting... * On April 23, 1933, an errant pitch by Washington Senators hurler struck Gehrig in the head. Although almost knocked unconscious, Gehrig
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 8, 2010
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                          Interesting...
                           
                          On April 23, 1933, an errant pitch by Washington Senators hurler struck Gehrig in the head. Although almost knocked unconscious, Gehrig recovered and remained in the game. On June 14, 1933, Gehrig was ejected from a game, along with manager Joe McCarthy, but he had already been at bat, so he got credit for playing the game. On July 13, 1934, Gehrig suffered a "lumbago attack" and had to be assisted off the field. In the next day's away game, he was listed in the lineup as "shortstop", batting lead-off. In his first and only plate appearance, he singled and was promptly replaced by a pinch runner to rest his throbbing back, never taking the field. A&E's Biography speculated that this illness, which he also described as "a cold in his back", might have been the first symptom of his debilitating disease


                          From: "swprod@..." <swprod@...>
                          To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Mon, November 8, 2010 8:14:29 AM
                          Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Stat question ('Game Started')

                           

                          I wonder if Gehrig ever got thrown out of a game while exchanging lineup
                          cards...

                          > Under current rules, he can get a game but it snaps his consecutive game
                          > played streak. In other words, all games are not created equal.
                          >
                          > See 10.23 (c) in Official Rules:
                          > CONSECUTIVE-GAME PLAYING STREAK. A consecutive-game playing streak shall
                          > be extended if a player plays one half-inning on defense or if the player
                          > completes a time at bat by reaching base or being put out. A pinch-running
                          > appearance only shall not extend the streak. If a player is ejected from a
                          > game by an umpire before such player can comply with the requirements of
                          > this Rule 10.23(c), such player’s streak shall continue.
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: robert bluestein
                          > To:
                          ymailto="mailto:baseball-databank%40yahoogroups.com">baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 2:08 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [baseball-databank] Stat question ('Game Started')
                          >
                          >
                          > Jim,
                          > Lou Gehrig had to play in the games during his streak. One series of
                          > games he had Lumbago and he was slated to bat leadoff for the Yankees
                          > (they were the visiting team) and then he took the field for one
                          > recorded out before coming out of the game. As I understand it, a player
                          > who is scratched from the lineup before he even steps foot on the
                          > diamond cannot be credited for being in the game.
                          > Rob
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----------------------------------------------------------
                          >
                          >
                          >


                        • KJOK
                          This is from Total Baseball - I believe it also applies to the Lahman database and, by likely therefore applies to BDB: BATTERS FACING PITCHER Unavailable
                          Message 12 of 18 , Feb 1 7:58 PM
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                            This is from Total Baseball - I believe it also applies to the Lahman database and, by likely therefore applies to BDB:


                            BATTERS FACING PITCHER Unavailable before 1903 in the National
                            League. The 1903 and 1908 data was not published and has been reconstructed.

                            BFP was unavailable for the American League of 1901-1907. Excepting the NL of 1876-1888 and the AA of 1882 and 1884-1887, for which John Tattersall calculated BFP from box scores, earlier years in both leagues have had their BFP constructed from available data in this manner:

                            subtract league base hits from league at-bats, divide by league innings pitched, multiply by the pitcher's innings, and add his hits allowed, walks, hit by pitch, and sacrifice hits, if available.

                            THANKS,
                            KJOK

                            --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, David Carter <terpsfan101@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Clem,
                            >
                            > I spent alot of time cleaning up the BFP data earlier this year. I worked from multiple sources (Spalding/Reach Guides, Newspapers, and Palmer's Data) and estimated BFP when it wasn't available. The BFP/IP for any player/season is well within an acceptable range. Like I said, I spent about a month going over the BFP data and deciding what sources to use. Check out my custom Baseball Databank Database that I made available earlier this year:
                            >
                            > http://www.mediafire.com/?newmuztnwww
                            >
                            > --- On Thu, 10/7/10, Clem Comly <ccomly@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > From: Clem Comly <ccomly@...>
                            > Subject: [baseball-databank] BFP issues
                            > To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 8:29 AM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I was using the data from last spring
                            > to look at BFP/IP.  Doing this I found a few impossible BFP numbers and a
                            > few inconsistencies with Retrosheet/Palmer data where the latter's data looks
                            > better.  I don't have the Retro data en masse,  just was manually
                            > looking up the best and worst BFP/IP seasons per BDB on the Retro
                            > site.
                            >  
                            >  I had figured out post-1900 leaders but when I checked against
                            > Retrosheet the BFPs
                            > did not match so I didn't show
                            > them
                            >                      
                            > :                                       
                            > BDB
                            > Retro
                            >                                                               
                            > BFP  BFP
                            > 3.64  Dickson, Walt     
                            > 1914  PIT  FL    935  1035
                            > 3.65  Willett,
                            > Ed           1913 
                            > DET  AL   883 
                            > 1002
                            > ==============================
                            > 5.08  Vangilder, Elam 
                            > 1927  SLA  AL  1031  931
                            >  
                            > When I extended my search to 19th century, lowest
                            > BFP/IP were:
                            >  BFP/IP best and worst season (minimum 150 IP)
                            >  2.36 Healy,
                            > Egyptian    1891 Balt AA
                            >  2.79 Madden,
                            > Kid       1891 Balt AA
                            >  3.18 McMahon,
                            > Sadie  1891 Balt AA
                            >
                            >
                            > 1891 is even uglier than I thought.
                            > 1891 Baltimore AA only had 7
                            > pitchers--2 were below 10 games pitched with
                            > 20-60 IP: those 2 had BFPs of
                            > 0.
                            > Of the other 5, 4 have BFP/IP below 3.  The last, Sadie McMahon had
                            > 1601 BFP
                            > in 503 IP with 493 hits and 149 walks.
                            >
                            > 1891 NL has 2 teams
                            > with 0 BFP.  If you subtract those teams IPs from league
                            > totals the
                            > other 6 have about 7300 IP and 6400 BFP!
                            >
                            >
                            > Clem
                            > Comly
                            >
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